Talk:Aimee Knight

Challenor's former name

Editors must bear in mind whilst editing Aimee Challenor the Wiki guidance at WP:TRANSNAME this states; "the birth names of transgender and non-binary people should only be included in the lead sentence if the people were notable prior to coming out" Miss Challenor was not significant by her prior name, and thus it should not be included in the article. Further guidance on Gender Identity is in the Manual of Style at MOS:GENDERID. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digestive Biscuit (talk • contribs) 08:24, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Well indeed you're right to revert the edits that were made per the policy you cite, and the fact it was unsourced. But if there is a reliable source on Challenor's former name, then the guideline you've cited is specifically about the lead sentence, so her birth name would warrant a sentence under personal life. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 11:45, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

The former name of Aimee Challenor is "Ashley" which is a girls name! And yes a boy's name too. But it's hardly like AC needed to change name because Ashley is a male name when half the time it isn't. And considering controversies surrounding AC in recent months and the fact that it isn't all that long ago that AC was known as Ashley (six or so years) it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to include AC's former name. Gallovidian85 (talk) 14:51, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Aimee's former name is <redacted>, not Ashley. The fact that there isn't a reputable source confirming this and that Gallovidian85 has argued for an incorrect name to be included is a good reason not to include her deadname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.208.209.179 (talk) 15:25, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Is Challenor even her current surname? It’s changed recently (not sure exact date) on social media? 2A02:C7F:B02E:5300:8DAC:320D:BAF6:A86C (talk) 00:41, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Aimee's birthnames 'Ashton Lucas David Challenor' are clear on her birth registration in Coventry, mother's maiden name Bull.Zohre6 (talk) 10:51, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Aimee's birthname is still in the article, after "Born" in the profile box. As per MOS:DEADNAME this should almost certainly be removed. Etromin (talk) 14:37, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, and thanks Etromin for pointing this out. My comment above was back when MOS:DEADNAME was a completely different policy but there's since been many internal discussions resulting in changes to it. — Bilorv (talk) 14:46, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

New photo?

Hello! I am the person this article is about. Following my resignation from the Green Party, would it be a Conflict of Interest if I just updated the photo? Thanks, Aimeec110 (talk) 23:18, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Aimee! This is a rather controversial topic, but I believe we have in the past chosen photos based on the subject's preference. If you have a good quality image with an appropriate license, I'd say go ahead and change it. Thanks! — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 00:07, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I finally got around to uploading a new photo onto the commons, however I'm not that great at cropping it to the right size. It's available at; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aimee_Challenor_campaigning_for_Liberal_Democrats.jpg Thanks! Aimeec110 (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Yep, the image looks good to me. I've put in the infobox. Thanks! — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 21:37, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

her glasses are literally dripping wet with water Camdoodlebop (talk) 21:28, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

NON NOTABLE PERSON DELETE

This person is non notable. delete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.99.35.28 (talk) 00:45, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I am reverting my removal of the speedy delete tag. Article history is hazy, appearing to have been reconstructed after a delete was done in 2016 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aimee_Challenor).

I will leave for people with more expertise than myself to assess.

--^(talk) 01:36, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the {{notability}} template because it doesn't seem actionable. The article has 25 reliable sources (and several obvious claims of significance) so CSD/PROD is absurd at this point. If anyone thinks the subject is non-notable, start an AfD. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 09:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Bilorv, having some spurces does not equal notable. Many activists have written letters to papers. This person has not achieved anything politically and is non notable by wiki standards. Delete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.99.35.28 (talk) 23:17, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

You are free to start an Articles for Deletion discussion if you believe this to be the case but... significant coverage in reliable sources is in fact our guideline for notability. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 01:02, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Autism

I've added information on subject's autism using this reference. It's referenced in several news articles surrounding the issue with her father, and the independent report. She's also written about it herself. Can someone check that I've used the correct source or if I should use a better one? 2A00:23C4:B28A:600:5041:DAC1:6AC2:5C6C (talk) 21:30, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Thanks for the edit! I've removed the partner name you added because it doesn't appear to have a source, and added the last source you gave here (the one from Challenor herself). — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 15:59, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Name change

Per this edit made by an anonymous contributor, we are to understand that Aimee Challenor has taken the surname Knight upon marriage (primary source). I believe that WP:MAIDEN recommends that we refer to people by their best-known name, which is still Aimee Challenor for this individual, particularly as she is a public figure who has stood for election under this name.

So I'm happy to have the lead, body and infobox of the article mention the word "Knight", with the given source, but I believe we should continue to use "Challenor" throughout, at least unless Aimee becomes notable for new activities under her married name. If we were to change the names to Knight then I believe we should also rename the article to Aimee Knight.

Pinging Info-Screen, who reverted the editor's change, and AimeeSunflower, who we understand to be Aimee herself, and leaving a message for the anonymous contributor. — Bilorv (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

We should respect the individual's wishes. Until we know what those are, I support the article title remaining as Aimee Challenor as the best known name, while the article text can introduce her as Knight née Challenor. Bondegezou (talk) 19:22, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I did get married in December, and I'm using Knight rather than my maiden name, including on social media, in work, and just generally in life. There seems to be a mishmash of usage between Knight and Challenor on the article, obviously use whichever you deem appropriate. I am aware of two main uses of my current name in news media, I was quoted in a CoventryLive article in January as "Aimee Knight, a young Coventry campaigner with a trans background" and I've been given credit for my photography in an Aberdeen based newspaper. I feel that it's not for me to comment on Wikipedia policies themselves, but what I can do is state that I now use Knight on my user page, Aimee Knight redirs to this article, and there are links through to this article that use Aimee Knight according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Aimee_Challenor. I really don't know if any of this helps, but it's all I can really say.

TLDR; Yes I got married, now I use Knight, not my maiden name.

AimeeSunflower (talk) 20:08, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

References

I tried searching for Aimee Knight with multiple search Engines, without any relevant results, but her Twitter. The WP:COMMONNAME is still Challenor, so I would keep the page at Aimee Challenor. We already have the redirect from Aimee Knight. Introducing her as Knight née Challenor in the lead. Not entirly sure, what we should do with the Infobox. --Info-Screen::Talk 20:13, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for the input from everybody. It looks to me like we might be better changing most of the mentions back to Challenor, but introducing her as "Knight (née Challenor)" in the first sentence and mentioning the name Knight in the infobox and under "Personal life". MOS:NEE tells us what to do in the first sentence, but not anywhere else, whereas WP:MAIDEN and WP:COMMONNAME give guidance on which name to describe a person by throughout the article. — Bilorv (talk) 11:27, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

The article's use of 'Challenor' vs. 'Knight' as a surname for Aimee still don't seem consistent. I don't fully know what Wikipedia's policies are on the matter, but I could understand using the former when she went by that name, and the latter when she changed her name, or changing all to reflect her name change. But right now we have some instances of 'Challenor' and some of 'Knight' when she was still using her birth surname. --Mondodi (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Why has this article not been deleted?

After being deleted before why is this article of self-publicity allowed to be restored? It served no purpose. Aimee is living in the USA now and not involved in UK politics.Zohre6 (talk) 11:01, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

The article was recreated based on an increase in the number of reliable secondary sources about the figure (for instance, after David Challenor's rape conviction). You are welcome to nominate the article for deletion, or to comment more specifically on which aspects you view as "self-publicity", as maybe we can address such issues. — Bilorv (talk) 12:54, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Reddit Admin

The fact that Aimee Challenor is currently banning people on reddit for discussing her history is relevant to the article. She has managed to scrub quite a lot of her history from the internet, including her husbands tweets which are nowhere to be found. The fact that she's now doing it as an employee of reddit too is an important part of her story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:150:4300:C90:F880:E228:DAB4:87F2 (talk) 12:03, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

We would need both reliable sources that state this (reddit posts aren't reliable sources) and there would also need to be some indication that this is notable. — Czello 12:58, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

INcluding a mention of her current job -public info- would be appropriate. And yes, I'm sure there will be reliable sources coming. 38.73.253.217 (talk) 13:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Reddit mods are also discussing this, with again more recent censorship https://www.removeddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/mbbm2c/welcome_back_subreddit_statement/

Again, though, this isn't a reliable source. — Czello 14:34, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

How is a direct quote from the involved parties not a "reliable source"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.225.46 (talk) 14:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

These are just the mods of some subreddit. They might not be being truthful, they might have misinterpreted reddit policy, or they might be telling things from a certain PoV. Ultimately, they can say anything they like. Plus, there's no proof it's being done by her. Besides, this isn't hugely notable. — Czello 14:51, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Why isnt anyone posting the fact she's fuckin censoring people on reddit.

Is there any indication this is notable? — Czello 14:51, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm a Reddit mod and I'm noticing that any comment or post that mentions her name directly are being removed automatically by Reddit (not Automoderator). There's no indication that this was made by her, though. However, disagreeding with my fellow IP users, a link to reddit or removereddit isn't a reliable source. We should wait for more reliable sources in the news to link to this article regarding censorship on Reddit. Maybe it even is more relevant to add this to Reddit, not here. User:Tetizeraz. Send me a ✉️ ! 14:46, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

We currently have announcements from r/ukpolitics and sticky posts from r/europe.

I am not disputing that this might be an important topic for the Reddit community, but Wikipedia policy is clear: see WP:SOCIALMEDIA and WP:BLP. We cannot talk about this without reliable secondary sourcing. Bondegezou (talk) 16:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Yea, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just adding sources. Those sources can be used together with a secondary source, if there's one. User:Tetizeraz. Send me a ✉️ ! 16:24, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

This is now being reported by Spectator - the title that published the article that started the banning spree at Reddit. Suggest this is probably a reputable source: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-reddit-censoring-the-spectator- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.168.12 (talk) 10:10, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:RSP, not good as the only source. Only good for opinions attributed to the author if there are other sources that establish the facts. — Bilorv (talk) 13:13, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

New article in from Game Revolution as well. Guess we'll see if this picks up steam. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 13:35, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Do you guys want to have this controversy to Reddit#2021 too? User:Tetizeraz. Send me a ✉️ ! 14:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

• I mentioned this below, but just to be sure it's not missed, the GameRevolution source just says that The protest has emerged in the wake of allegations that Reddit purposely removed a Spectator article from r/UKPolitics that briefly discussed Aimee Knight, who Redditors believe has been hired by the company (emphasis mine.) That's not usable as a source to state it as a fact. --Aquillion (talk) 15:53, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Incase ye need more sources https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/677190-reddit-private-community-aimee-challenor-censorship and https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/24/chaos-at-reddit-as-dozens-of-subreddits-made-private-in-protest-at-site-2-14297612/

As I said, even if we were willing to use GameRevolution as a source on an article completely unrelated to gaming, it is careful to say only The protest has emerged in the wake of allegations that Reddit purposely removed a Spectator article from r/UKPolitics that briefly discussed Aimee Knight, who Redditors believe has been hired by the company. We can't cite a source worded in that way to present those things as fact. And the Metro is generally unreliable; see its entry on WP:RSP. Wait a bit and see if higher-quality sources emerge. --Aquillion (talk) 16:19, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Unprovoked bans on Reddit

No mention at all of the fact that after becoming a Reddit employee, every post referencing her is now being deleted and the users banned by reddit? The whole topic is so hush-hush that even mentioning this is happening on reddit will also get you suspended.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/mbbm2c/welcome_back_subreddit_statement/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.87.90 (talk) 14:28, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

A power-tripping mod locked the article, so now so you can't even add what she's doing! 2A02:C7F:50DA:C600:DD40:1975:61B3:3BC6 (talk) 16:30, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

It was locked because people keep adding unreferenced and non-notable information. — Czello 17:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

No, it was locked because the mods on /r/ukpolitics did not know what was going on/how have they violated Reddit-wide rules 2001:7C0:2900:8050:45DE:9704:8F2F:D66F (talk) 17:36, 23 March 2021 (UTC).

User:2A02:C7F:50DA:C600:DD40:1975:61B3:3BC6, it was only locked for people who aren't autoconfirmed. It's a standard procedure on Wikipedia for articles that are receiving an influx of attention (such as this one due to the controversy regarding it). I wouldn't consider protecting the article power-tripping at all. DrawWikiped^(talk) 23:00, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I think the guy above is talking about this Wikipedia page, hence why he said "article". 17:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

FWIW there seems to be quite a comprehensive blogpost about the controversy, complete with screenshots, links and sources. Can we use this https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/something-rotten-at-the-heart-of perhaps? Rooster~enwiki (talk)Rooster_en

Linehan's personal blog is not a reliable source and can't be used here. Bondegezou (talk) 12:51, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Here's a UK national media organisation reporting on the issue: https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/24/chaos-at-reddit-as-dozens-of-subreddits-made-private-in-protest-at-site-2-14297612/ Now let someone add this item of great public interest to the web page of this politician whose job allows them to alter public discourse online, something their employer is explicitly doing on their behalf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.254.162 (talk) 20:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Edit request: Formulation in section Political career

the home shared by him, Aimee and Tina Challenor (his wife and her mother).

Imho the current formulation is a bit convoluted and could be made clearer and more straightforward, e.g. like this:

the home shared by him, his wife Tina Challenor, and their child, Aimee.

It's not perfect either, but at least it gets rid of the somewhat irritating parenthesis. Feel free to improve on my suggestion. Best, 2A0A:A541:D9C1:0:740D:98B9:2E4:CB91 (talk) 16:26, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

All set. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:05, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Removed claim that she is a Reddit admin

I've removed a mention of Challenor being a Reddit administrator. I've seen a lot of people claiming this online, but a quick google finds only Twitter, Reddit, and assorted right-wing message boards, but no reliable sources. Given that this is getting a lot of attention at the moment, and as this is a BLP, I've removed the claim until we have a good source. Gaelan 💬✏️ 17:49, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely. Seems like sensitive WP:BLP material but additionally, reddit drama is quite high on my extensive list of "things an encyclopedia shouldn't concern itself with". We need a very good set of sources (e.g. The Guardian, The Telegraph, The Times) for this to be relevant, and none exist as time of writing. — Bilorv (talk) 19:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. While Challenor certainly admin is, we deal with verifiability, not with WP:TRUTH. Sooner or later we will get some and then it can be reset back. EllsworthSK (talk) 20:01, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear that there's no need for "live coverage" of this reddit drama. If it's covered in enough respectable sources in future, it could merit inclusion. Porphyro (talk) 20:58, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Challenor has since been confirmed as "a Reddit employee" by an Admin post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/mbqgx2/a_clarification_on_actioning_and_employee_names/ 202.53.53.137 (talk) 23:47, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on sources which have professional fact-checking processes (like news outlets, books, peer-reviewed journals), not forum drama. No-one cares if the information is true; we care if it appears in such sources. — Bilorv (talk) 00:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

How is stating the subject's employer "forum drama"? Why would one need to wait for a news outlet or peer-reviewed journal to make note of this fact when it's confirmed by an administrator of the company themselves? It would seem to me that by that logic, press releases would be an irrelevant source on Wikipedia. Luka0188 (talk) 01:18, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

It's funny you mention press releases, which are almost always removed when noticed by an experienced editor per WP:PROMO. We need to "wait for" a news outlet etc. to make note of the fact because Wikipedia does not aim to collect all information. As we have a small volunteer base, a wide scope and a wide audience, we limit ourselves to the topics that we can handle properly (... a task which we still fail in, but in a more controlled manner). "All true things mentioned on reddit" or "the current job of every living person who has an article, even when that job is not covered in reliable sources" is not such a thing. — Bilorv (talk) 01:28, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Indeed; Wikipedia does not aim to collect all information. It aims to signal-boost whatever the media deems people ought to consider important. This is a reason not to trust or rely upon Wikipedia for any vaguely political purpose.

I could not find a major source noting Challenor's acknowledged status as an admin of Reddit, but here is an article on The Atlantic claiming she either is or was a moderator of the /r/transgenderteens subreddit, which they apparently found noteworthy in the context of discussing racism on Reddit. She evidently spoke to media in this capacity and wished to be identified as such.

Aside from that, by my reading of WP:SELFSOURCE, representatives of Reddit acting in their official capacity certainly are an acceptable source for statements made about Reddit; and by common sense, "such-and-such a person is a Reddit admin" is such a statement. 174.93.62.103 (talk) 08:05, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

No, this has the same issue. The problem is not that the statement is untrue (I'm sure it is true). It's that it's not important with respect to Wikipedia's goal. You've only argued that the statement is true, but that's not the reason for exclusion. — Bilorv (talk) 13:13, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

An article has since been posted here by the original news source that triggered the controversy, that describes Challenor as being employed by Reddit. Granted the source does appear to be the /r/UKPolitics subreddit, but would this be considered an acceptable source, given there has been very little-to-no formal acknowledgement of her position? Bonoahx (talk) 09:29, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Falls under WP:RS and is second hand source so yes, its usable as source. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:31, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

No, I don't think it's usable here if that's the only source. See WP:RSP#The Spectator: The Spectator primarily consists of opinion pieces and these should be judged by WP:RSOPINION and WP:NEWSBLOG. Not good for fact. Only good for opinion if another source establishes the facts. — Bilorv (talk) 13:13, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

People literally link to their own amateur websites as "sources". Terrorist groups linking to their own pages for sources for propaganda. People constantly edit war and edits are almost always done by persons who have something at stake in anything politics/terrorism related. What fact-checking process, peer reviews are you talking about. 88.230.179.97 (talk) 14:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Can you give examples of the things you are talking about? They sound like they need removal. Someone's amateur website is almost never a good source, and I'm rather concerned if the assertion here is that terrorists are adding propaganda without oversight by community members. — Bilorv (talk) 14:49, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that Spectator or GameRevolution pass WP:BLP standards here (in the latter case, for someone unrelated to gaming.) Why are we citing GameRevolution at all? --Aquillion (talk) 15:29, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, Aquillion, I argued against it back when it was just the Spectator and I don't see how GameRevolution is better. The Spectator is still being stated for citing facts, which it's simply not reliable for (it's good for opinion at best). — Bilorv (talk) 15:33, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I've removed it for now after noticing that GameRevolution doesn't even support the cited text; it says The protest has emerged in the wake of allegations that Reddit purposely removed a Spectator article from r/UKPolitics that briefly discussed Aimee Knight, who Redditors believe has been hired by the company. Note the allegations and Redditors believe. That obviously can't be used to cite a line that says that she is employed by Reddit as a fact, and is too speculative to be WP:DUE if we tried to cover it as-written; it's much more cautious about the whole topic than the text that we were using it for. We'd need a better source in any case, but this one didn't even support what it was cited for. In effect we were citing the whole thing to the Spectator, a heavily-involved source that's only usable for opinion at best. --Aquillion (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Was added again, this time cited to the Metro, which is red at WP:RSP. Wait for WP:RS coverage, people. --Aquillion (talk) 15:58, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

The Spectator article has a specific quote from Reddit spokeperson on a specific question the journalist sent via email; I argue this is not WP:RSOPINION. And indeed WP:RSP uses the phrase "The Spectator primarily consists of opinion pieces", not exclusively. We do not even have to quote words of Reddit itself too, to augment (as per WP:BLPPRIMARY) the source, as Redditfolks were kind enough to use "employee" in their answer to an enquiry (by the journo) about Aimee Challenor. I wonder what the poor journalist has to do for us to positively review their contribution per WP:MREL :P . I wouldn't mind other sources, but WP:COMMON! Ffaffff (talk) 16:11, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that we weren't presenting the Spectator's article as opinion; we were presenting it as fact (I'd argue it's undue as opinion, either way, but we definitely can't use it unattributed.) And since this concerns a WP:BLP, we obviously have to stick to the highest standard of sourcing. See also Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth; we're not supposed to be digging up evidence to prove things ourselves, we're supposed to cover what reliable sources say, with weight and focus appropriate to that coverage. This is (again) especially true for BLPs - including it here carries the implication that this is a significant event in her life and that she has some personal involvement in it, which goes way beyond the limited inferences people are making from Reddit posts. --Aquillion (talk) 16:17, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@Aquillion: (edit conflict) Agreed. I wonder if full protection is needed here to stop this. Even ECP would only some of the bad content being re-added without discussion. The problem is not that people have opinions, but that they're all getting lost in a sea of page history rather than centralised in a talk discussion.

@Ffaffff but a source that's unreliable for fact doesn't become reliable just because what it's saying is true. The point of WP:MREL is that you need to read the context of discussion and when the source might be appropriate, not "it can be reliable for whatever I want if I argue it is on a case-by-case basis". WP:BLPPRIMARY doesn't show significance. The journalist has to move to a publication whose mission statement isn't "whatever it takes to trigger the libs" if they want their writings used to inform Wikipedia. WP:COMMON does not apply because your apparent notion of common sense is different to mine in this case. Mine is that publishing dubious speculative negative content about a WP:BLP is not acceptable even if I'm convinced that the facts are true. — Bilorv (talk) 16:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

What is negative about being employed by a tech-giant like Reddit? :P I disagree with you both (this is overly cautios even for a BLP), I am happy to wait for more sources to pop up Ffaffff (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I've just reverted an addition of this information to the article as WP:UNDUE. The controversy is not about the article subject per se, but Reddit's overblown reaction. And with a single source, this is adding too much weight to a very new situation (less than a day old). I'd argue that it might be appropriate for the Reddit article but, even there, this is an extremely recent event with very little reporting about it. The above argument that this is a BLP article, which has a much stricter standing for inclusion, also warrants caution rather than jumping straight to adding this to the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:54, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

It's not a single source. https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/24/chaos-at-reddit-as-dozens-of-subreddits-made-private-in-protest-at-site-2-14297612/ explicitly mentions "Reddit employee Aimee Challenor" and the statement "Recently, Reddit hired Aimee as an Admin" appears in https://www.epistlenews.co.uk/science/03/24/reddit-is-banning-anyone-who-takes-aimee-challenors-name-heres-everything-you-need-to-know.html Both reference the kerfuffle on Reddit regarding this situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.254.162 (talk) 20:52, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Mentioning her name does not mean the articles are about her. They're about the controversy, ie. Reddit nuking posts and accounts. That's undue weight in this BLP article about her. Also, Metro is not considered a reliable source. I am not familiar with Epistle News. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:19, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I can not respond to this as 'an automated filter' has decided that I can't rebut the arguments you so badly made. Suffice to say: you are wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.254.162 (talk) 21:58, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

If you're hitting an edit filter, you're trying to link to a site the community has deemed to be spam, or so irredeemably non-reliable as to never be used. So you'll have to find a better one to convince me. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:44, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Include per https://www.dailydot.com/debug/reddit-subs-private-admin-suspending-mentions/ Loganmac (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Why is this an article? (2021)

When I googled a name that I saw on social media, I was surprised to see that there was already a Wikipedia article, and I went on it to propose it for deletion. I had a strong inkling it would be a WP:RECENTist attack page from Kiwi Farms or 4chan, seeing as this person has done nothing of public note except from be associated with a couple of wrong'uns, and the current [I will have to say alleged] negative story around this person isn't covered by any published sources whatsoever.

How is a candidate who got 1.3% in an election notable? How is the serious crime of the candidate's father/manager a reason to have an article (see above arguments where it's basically said "this person may not have been notable when the AfD was proposed, but now it turns out the person's dad is a criminal"). I could make a million articles about nobody Labour and Conservative candidates who had dodgy associations, but they would be speedily deleted and I would probably be banned as a WP:NOTHERE muckspreader. Then we have the person gets expelled from another political party, again because of a dodgy associate. Do a resignation and an expulsion make a nobody candidate notable?

I can find a million articles about this guy who left the Lib Dems to move to America for a comfy social media job. So how is Challenor notable when we can't even prove from a third-party source that Challenor was ever hired by Reddit? Unknown Temptation (talk) 23:30, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

How is a candidate who got 1.3% in an election notable? Simple. WP:NPOLITICIAN is not the criterion that was used. WP:GNG is. The election result is perpendicular to notability, neither proving nor disproving it. Here is the state of the page when I recreated it, thinking it met GNG on the strength of sources presented. A couple are not reliable and not all contribute to GNG but I do think that version shows that GNG is met. Notability is then permanent, so it doesn't matter how little coverage there is of the topic in future. None of the content is meant as an attack, just a due reflection of what sources have talked about. — Bilorv (talk) 23:43, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. May I clarify that I only presumed that this would be a recent attack page as I had seen nothing to say that this person is previously notable, and I know that Kiwi Farms/4chan/Encyclopedia Dramatica love making articles about online figures who they don't like. I just never thought that being perpendicular to scandal is notable. However I know better than to nominate the page for deletion seeing as many AfD arguments are about quantity of sources rather than how central the references are to establishing someone as a person of public notability. I doubt the permanence of notability if only the tabloid Metro and the right-wing opinion magazine Spectator even acknowledge Challenor's job at Reddit, full stop Unknown Temptation (talk) 16:16, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

The notability of the article is not based on the current Reddit kerfuffle. Past discussion has concluded that there has been significant coverage about her as a figure, not merely as someone related to her father's crimes or as a failed political candidate. Notability doesn't have to be ongoing: if someone is notable at a particular point in time, then it is appropriate to have an article, even if they subsequently sink back into obscurity (see WP:NTEMP). However, the notability of the article has been contested previously and I for one wouldn't see a new AfD to test the matter as being an odd thing to do. If you think the article is not notable, you should feel able to start an AfD. Bondegezou (talk) 16:46, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

"Knight" or "Challenor"?

These two surnames seem to be used interchangeably throughout the article. Is there some logic to it? Shouldn't it be just one (presumably "Knight", that being her current name) or the other? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.226.136.112 (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I'm not sure of this either. Switching to "Knight" and moving the page to Aimee Knight might be in order. I think it's simply that no-one has looked at the page in too much detail since the name change (before yesterday, at least). — Bilorv (talk) 16:49, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Let's agree some possible text on Reddit here

There's been a lot of editing back and forth around the recent events to do with Reddit. I suggest we work on material here, work through these disagreements -- if we can -- as to what (if anything) should be added, rather than edit-warring the article. The most recent text to be removed is as follows:

On March 22nd 2021, a Reddit user who is a moderator of the r/ukpolitics subreddit submitted an article to that subreddit that contained a reference to Knight's father's prosecution and conviction. The user was subsequently banned from Reddit and the post removed. Reddit claimed this was a result of an auto-moderation rule to protect Knight, an employee of Reddit, from having her personal information shared. Reddit later clarified that the rule was incorrectly applied in this case.

As a result of the ban, r/ukpolitics temporarily went private while the moderators attempted to resolve the issue with the Reddit admin team. The incident subsequently led to multiple other subreddits going private in protest at Reddit's perceived censorship of Knight's past and Knight's continued employment.

My last attempt at wording was this much shorter version:

Challenor is currently employed by Reddit as an administrator. In March 2021, Reddit banned users who discussed or linked to news sources mentioning Challenor, saying they had done this to protect their employee from harassment, but they acknowledged the bans had gone too far and were reversed.

I think that the coverage may warrant a short mention in the article, so a couple of sentences, not a couple of paragraphs. So something like the latter text. But I can see an argument for saying nothing if no more reliable sources emerge. If lots more RS emerge, then we should reflect that. What do others think? Bondegezou (talk) 16:55, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

That's a very good rewrite of the information... but I still have to argue this is too recent an event to include in a BLP article, especially with just a single source. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:59, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

The Spectator is not reliable for fact. See WP:RSP. And as I think you agree, Metro is even worse. If no reliable sources emerge then we must say nothing. If some emerge then we must only say what those future sources say. — Bilorv (talk) 17:03, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Reddit

I've gone ahead and added a brief mention of the Reddit controversy in the 'Career' section with citations to The Daily Dot and GameRevolution. There is no viewpoint discussed in the prose I wrote – only a matter-of-fact description of the controversy based on two reliable sources. For future editors, please refrain from using Metro as a source, as it is a tabloid which is considered generally unreliable. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 17:09, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Okay, well a new source at least (Daily Dot) and it's reliable. I'm in favour of the content added, but no further expansion of detail at this point as due weight is already a bit dubious from the two sources presented (plus possibly The Spectator). — Bilorv (talk) 17:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bilorv: Agreed about expansion at this time. Personally, I believe the article's coverage of the controversy is proportionate to the amount of reliable, independent coverage at this time; it would be detrimental for the encyclopedia to remove this mention altogether, but until more reliable, independent sources cover this, anything more would probably overstep WP:BALASP. At the very least, this full protection should hopefully cool down the edit warring and the use of Metro and Reddit as a source. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 17:56, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bilorv: It looks like The Verge has picked up on this topic too, and in fairly substantial detail, in this article. I'm now entirely convinced that this brief paragraph in the article isn't WP:BALASP. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 21:05, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunate that this got added right before the article was protected. I still believe this is WP:UNDUE weight in this article, and way too recent. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:50, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Metro article, as editing main article is blocked

This may be a good news article to link for the recent events: https://metro.co.uk/2021/03/24/chaos-at-reddit-as-dozens-of-subreddits-made-private-in-protest-at-site-2-14297612/ - 2A01:4B00:F42B:D800:555B:986E:E0E4:C979 (talk) 17:39, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

My understanding is that Metro is not an RS for BLP subjects. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:44, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds: You'd be correct. It's not quite as bad as something like WP:THESUN, but it's still on our list of perennial sources as 'generally unreliable'. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 18:06, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Spectator article as source

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-reddit-censoring-the-spectator- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4B00:F42B:D800:555B:986E:E0E4:C979 (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

The Spectator is primarily opinion pieces -- Wikipedia doesn't consider opinion pieces to be reliable. — Czello 19:23, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

What's with these terrible links?

In the second paragraph, it says, "was convicted and jailed for the rape and torture of a child" where "rape and torture of a child" is a link. Ideally that would lead to an article on his conviction, or failing that an article on him in general, or failing that an article describing what "rape and torture" means, exactly, under UK law. Instead it leads to a general article on child sexual abuse, which clarifies that statement not at all. If he was convicted of child sexual abuse, it should say that he was convicted of child sexual abuse.

In the next sentence, same thing: "despite him being charged with serious sexual offences" just links to a 2003 law which is named the Sexual Offences Act. Which serious sexual offences? Are they listed in the 2003 law? Can I find them on that page? I have learned nothing.

I came here to try and figure out what was going on with the reddit bullshit, and have learned very little about what he did, or what she did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:ED00:2:0:0:0:0:68 (talk) 10:56, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

She, and try following the references. The everywhere aren't decorative. — Bilorv (talk) 21:14, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

No, the "he" refers to her father. --Aquillion (talk) 22:03, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

So, the text link goes to an article on child sexual abuse, as noted, but the reference link does indeed go to an article about the conviction. I agree the text link is unnecessary and if anything distracting. 70.37.249.19 (talk) 13:52, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Can someone add The Verge as a source for the recent drama from Reddit?

Link. User:Tetizeraz. Send me a ✉️ ! 21:29, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Again, I believe it's too soon to be adding this to a BLP article, when the controversy is mostly about Reddit's behavior, not the article subject. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:39, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, I'm not used to dealing with controversial BLPs on en-wiki, sorry! User:Tetizeraz. Send me a ✉️ ! 21:46, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds: A single sentence mention of the controversy itself is in the article already. The Verge is a pretty reliable source and we should add it to demonstrate due weight in that this has been covered by multiple reliable sources. More reliable than GameRevolution. Not saying that we should expand on what we already have, but that this source should be added to support it. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 21:52, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

It's in the article because it got slipped in before an admin locked it. I was actually about to revert its inclusion, but the lock happened before I could. I would rather see the section removed until we've had the chance to discuss it more, but m:WRONGVERSION and all that. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:41, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, just to say that The Verge source is the most up-to-date source about Aimee. It confirms she was hired by Reddit, but was fired today. User:Tetizeraz. Send me a ✉️ ! 23:05, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request

Please change the last paragraph of the "career" section to:

In March 2021, [[Reddit]] users claimed that Challenor was hired as an administrator for the site, prompting several popular [[subreddits]] to go private in protest.<ref name="Goforth2021">{{cite web|url=https://www.dailydot.com/debug/reddit-subs-private-admin-suspending-mentions/|last=Goforth|first=Claire|date=24 March 2021|work=[[The Daily Dot]]|title=Massive subs all go private to protest Reddit’s hiring of a pedophile ‘enabler’|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210324170201/https://www.dailydot.com/debug/reddit-subs-private-admin-suspending-mentions/|archive-date=24 March 2021|url-status=live}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|last=Tamburro|first=Paul|date=24 March 2021|title=Reddit's most popular subreddits go private in protest against 'censorship'|url=https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/677190-reddit-private-community-aimee-challenor-censorship|url-status=live|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210324142939/https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/677190-reddit-private-community-aimee-challenor-censorship|archive-date=24 March 2021|access-date=24 March 2021|website=[[GameRevolution]]}}</ref> Reddit has not specifically commented on whether Challenor is employed at the company. <ref name = "Goforth2021"/>

Right now, the claim that Challenor is employed by Reddit is essentially just a bunch of Reddit users claiming so and a post by Reddit admins that could be interpreted (but hasn't by reliable sources) as confirming her employment. We shouldn't include this claim on its own without informing our readers of the positions of the other people/groups involved. I don't believe this is controversial. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply)Template:Z181 22:16, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

spez has spoken

https://reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/mcisdf/an_update_on_the_recent_issues_surrounding_a/ 2603:301D:22B2:4000:29B8:6B19:76CA:3575 (talk) 22:48, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Edit Request: Adding that /r/Music is among the Subreddits that locked down.

This recent article from The Verge emphasized that one of the subreddits that locked down in response to Aimee Challenor's addition is r/Music. [1] Yoshiman6464 ^♫🥚 23:04, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Who wrote this?

"Although assigned male at birth, Knight says she realised she was a girl around the age of 10, but her parents were unaware of the existence of trans people."

Who wrote this crap?

You aren't assigned a sex. You don't realize you have certain chromosomes at any particular time, you just have them. The existence of trans gender people does not change the existence of chromosomes. This is a stunning example of someone who is mentally unwell being given a platform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cybertank2222 (talk • contribs) 23:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Protection is excessive and detrimental

Can any admin or whoever protected this page explain how an editor with almost 15 years of editing like me can't edit this article? I have never seen this excessive protection and it's obviously not needed. I understand protection against potential trolls and BLP, but we're still discussing if her employement is BLP when it has already been confirmed for hours by WP:RS, while thousands of people come to this article for information about this person, they only get an outdated article. All of this makes it seem like an attempt at WP:OWN/gatekeeping. --Loganmac (talk) 23:12, 24 March 2021 (UTC)