Talk:Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder

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ADD as a Hyper-focus disorder.

In my personal experience with ADD (I have it, and it runs in my family), it seems to present itself less as a general lack of focus, but a tendency to hyperfocus paired with the inability to prioritize and/or cognitively select the subject of focus. When I was younger, I tended to have the typical 'daydreaming' scenario in class, where my mind just wandered everywhere. Now I have more of a tendency to focus intently on things, but not always what is appropriate or rational. Instead of working on a proposal I have due (which cognitively should have a very high priority), I can spend endless hours on Wikipedia (significantly lower priority, but still requiring a high level of focus). Instead of paying attention in a lecture, I may instead work on deriving an extended proof for a problem for a different class, and thus completely miss what's going on in the present class. I have heard others referencing ADD as a hyperfocus disorder as well as an attention-deficit disorder. Perhaps this is something for the researchers here to discuss. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.89.197.101 (talk) 12:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

Dr. Russell Barkley speaks of your observations here ->http://www.schwablearning.org/articles.aspx?r=54 - download the pdf(interesting reading)--scuro 13:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

last time

If you are looking for consensus scientific opinion, then here it is. ADHD is a mental disorder. That's why it is in the DSM. People can suggest that it is neurological and research should continue on these fronts but if it was a MAJORITY opinion that ADHD was neurological, it wouldn't be in the DSM.

All opinions are not equal and just because you can find a scientist who says something on the web, doesn't mean it is true.

I'm done with the broken-record stuff, but bottom line is that the people writing this page don't seem to understand what a mental disorder is, and that seems awfully important. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.201.100.221 (talk) 16:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

This all goes back to the instance that ADHD only exists in the DSM4 and the Psychiatrists who "made up" the disorder. Some insisted that it couldn't be "neurological in nature" if it was only a "shopping list" of symptoms.

I've got no problem with ADHD being listed in the DSM4. Different groups with different perspectives want to call ADHD different things. Some want to call it a behavioural disorder, others a neurological disorder, and yet still others want to call it a developmental disorder. Some use a combination of those terms. In Europe where they use the ICD-10 of WHO, and the DSM4 is not used, it is called hyperkinic disorder and placed in the broader classification of conduct disorders. For the longest time the ICD-10 viewed the symptoms as being caused by organic brain damage. It doesn't really matter so much who describes ADHD. Simply we have a long documented history of patterns of impaired behaviour with ADHD. It was first clinically described in 1902. Psychiatrists didn't make up ADHD in 1968 when it was first encoded in the DSM2.

That consensus statement of 2002 supports the notion that ADHD is "neurological in nature" and that is why the consensus statement was originally used as a citation for those three words. This was the segment from the opening sentence that was deleted several times and which started these many discussions on the subject. Some were strongly opposed to the inclusion of those three words. This is what all this has been about. Some still want those three words removed but there is ample and highly reliable and citable support for those three words. For me also I hope this is the last time we kick this particular can.

--scuro 17:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion in the DSM-IV does not even remotely constitute a refutation of the neurological nature of a given disorder. Autism is a disorder of the central neurvous system. However, it is also in the DSM-IV. So, whether or not ADHD is in the DSM-IV is completely irrelevant in any argument as to whether ADHD has a neurological basis.

--CitizenKate 18:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's be clear. The DSM is a subset of the IDC that deals specifically with mental health diagnoses, their antecedents, and co-occurring disorders.

ADHD is not classified as a mental disorder because it is in the DSM. It is a medical condition that falls into the diagnostic category of mental dysfunction, and therefore within the purview of the DSM, as a subset of the IDC. Hagerman and Scuro are putting hte cart before the horse.

As for ADHD being a neurological condition, any medical anomoly evidencing non-linear brain function, acute, chronic, debilitating, or treatment manageable, constitutes a neurological condition, whether there is a genetic component, a hereditary component or an environmental insult as a precursor to said anomoly.

That said, it's both. DashaKat 21:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

IMPORTANT

Oh, it makes sense now. If you take an international consensus statement signed selectively by clinicians who treat ADHD as a biological disorder, maybe THEY do define it as neurological. But that international consensus statement is by no means an unbiased document.

The NIH consensus statement from 1998 defines ADHD a "behavioral disorder" http://consensus.nih.gov/1998/1998AttentionDeficitHyperactivityDisorder110PDF.pdf ...the word "neurological" does not appear in the text of that document.

I can't believe you guys used the International Consenus statement as one of fact!!! That's the opinion of only those who see ADHD in a certain way. It's an ADVOCACY document.

THe NIH review above does not even use the word 'neurological.'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you not understand the difference between a PR statement by scientists with a certain point of view and a NIH review????? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.248.242 (talk) 21:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

You mean the Consensus Statement that has written at the top in giant red letters:

This statement is more than five years old and is provided solely for historical purposes. Due to the cumulative nature of medical research, new knowledge has inevitably accumulated in this subject area in the time since the statement was initially prepared. Thus some of the material is likely to be out of date, and at worst simply wrong. For reliable, current information on this and other health topics, we recommend consulting the National Institutes of Health's MedlinePlus

That Consensus Statement?--Mrdarcey 14:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This reminds me of the joke about the zealots in heaven

St. Peter is doing the tour of heaven for all the newcomers. He shows them the pearly gates, god's throne, and the stables of the horses for the four horsemen. After several hours of touring they enter the backlot of heaven where there is a larger building with many rooms. St. Peter shhheshhhs everyone as they walk by the building. After they are a safe distance from the building one of the new comers asks St. Peter why they had to be so quiet near the building. St. Peter replied, "that building holds all the religious zealots in separate rooms and we have to be quiet because they all think they are the only ones here in heaven".

Okay, ADHD is a behaviour disorder period. It doesn't exist outside of the DSM4. It was made up by Psychiatrists who were in cahoots with the drug companies so everyone could get rich. No one can be trusted, they have all been corrupted by drug money...Wikipedia too!!!!!!!!!!!!

All kidding aside, it would be nice to know your name 68.35.248.242..... See this link to give yourself a name. ->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tutorial_%28Registration%29 --scuro 23:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

good joke

That's a good joke but I think people are missing the point. It doesn't minimize the severity of ADHD, or say much about drug companies or psychiatrists to say that ADHD is a mental disorder. It's just a fact that NIH calls it a behavioral disorder and that all the research cited throughout the piece uses the DSM definition of ADHD, therefore what else could it be referring to?

If ADHD is not the existence of the DSM symptoms, what is it? Those criteria are the only thing that make it possible for it to be reliable- not that it is in actual practice, but that's another issue.

It's not 'JUST' anything...! Schizophrenia is serious and it's a mental disorder- it's not considered a neurological disorder. Same thing with major depression, PTSD, panic disorder, anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder. None of them are 'neurological' and they are as serious, actually more so, than ADHD.

'Neurological' sounds good but is not correct.

If you all are using the international consensus statement signed by the proponents of medication treatment of ADHD, I thin that's a huge error. Not just for this part of the entry but any part.

And between the NIH consensus statement and the DSM, I think it's very clear that ADHD is a MENTAL DISORDER, period.

68.35.248.242 00:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)Phil

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/adhd/adhd.htm Looks like the NIH doesn't have such a consensus.... although they may consider it a mental disorder, a more descriptive name they have used more recently is Neurobehavioral Disorder. User:Edward Bower24.148.48.31 02:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Delisting GA

This article fails WP:WIAGA on the following:

• WP:LEAD is not a thorough summary of the article.
• The History section is listy, and should be converted to prose
• Numerous statements are uncited, original research is present in causes, and highest quality reliable sources are not used in all cases (some sources are personal websites)
• It is not stable, with disputes over basics like whether the condition is a neurological disorder.
• WP:MOS issues, for example, pls read WP:DASH and correct usage of dashes and hyphens throughout the article
• Pls see Project guidelines at WP:MEDMOS

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Funny that talks in the discussion area about ADHD being "neurological in nature" has now been used to characterize the article as "not being stable". Good one! We have consistently argued that ADHD is "neurological in nature", over a lengthy period of time. Sandy, if you see uncited, original research, and personal websites...is it not easier to to eliminate them then denigrate the quality of the article? Finally, if you have "cleaned up the article" why complain about it here?

--scuro 12:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Oversimplication of the situation; if you'll read the history, you'll see I've been saying since October that this article never met GA criteria, and the problems are too large for me to undertake alone. I'm not complaining, I'm listing items for editors to work on. (See the FAC in Article Milestones.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Check one (The History section is listy, and should be converted to prose) of your items off. --scuro 14:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the delisting. I'd also like to note that Sandy's comment didn't take a position on the neurology issue, only pointed out that there is a dispute (which in my opinion has gotten rather juvenile and completely unproductive) --Ginkgo100^talk 16:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

I did take a position on the neurology issue; I edited the article. At any rate, that isn't the biggest problem with this article, and it's just a minor distraction right now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"neurological in nature"

User:68.35.248.242, the consensus statement that you refer to is not the consensus statement used as a citation. The consensus that you referred to of 1998 is titled, "Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)". The consensus used as a citation from 2002 is called, "International Consensus Statement on ADHD". The 2002 document makes a strong case that ADHD is real, in the brain, and that there is a good deal of neurological evidence showing the genetic contribution to the epidemiology of the disorder. Specifically from the document, "This is why leading international scientists, such as the signers below, recognize the mounting evidence of neurological and genetic contributions to this disorder". --scuro 12:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because a handful of fringe scientists want to medicalize the disorder doesn't mean it is neurological. That isn't how science works. Any time someone refers to "mounting evidence," you can bet it is a scam.--Jkhamlin 17:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you just call ADHD a scam? -- Ned Scott 18:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Well he certainly did call Russell Barkley (SUNY), Thomas Brown (Yale)and Lawrence Adler (NYU), amongst others who teach and research at places called Yale and Harvard, "fringe scientists". Astounding given that Brown wrote the most widely used diagnostic assessment for AD/HD. He also stated, if I remember correctly -- I am AD/HD, afterall -- that there was no proof of other psychiatric ailments being nuerological in basis. Again astounding.

Allow me to add to the debate, if I can, with peer reviewed sources. Here are several from Dr HK Manji of Harvard (and the NIH/NIMH) -- one of the world's leading researchers of bipolar disorder -- discussing the underlying neurobiology and neuroplasticity of the brian in bipolarity (I discuss bipolarity here because of its close etiology with AD/HD -- poor density in the prefrontal cortex, though AD/HD is also related to Basal Ganglia disfunction):

Neuroplasticity and cellular resilience in mood disorders

The underlying neurobiology of bipolar disorder

The Neurobiology of Bipolar Disorder

Neural Circuitry and Neuroplasticity in Mood Disorders: Insights for Novel Therapeutic Targets

Here is a simpler interview with Manji in which he discusses demonstrated neuron loss in repeatedly manic patients, and how lithium and anti-convulsants, particularly valproic acid, act as neuro-protectives, and actually have been demonstrated to assist in neuron regrowth in the prefrontal cortex in bipolar patients:

Interview with Husseini, Manji M.D.

More germane to the topic of AD/HD, here are several articles from Thomas E Brown, author of the Brown AD/HD diagnostic scale, on AD/HD as a neurologic developmental disorder leading to poor executive functioning skills:

DSM-IV: ADHD and Executive Function Impairments

Executive Functions and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: Implications of two conflicting views

Note the quotes

In recent years, researchers have begun to recognize that [AD/HD] is ... a developmental impairment of a complex range of executive functions (EFs) ... The general consensus is that they [EFs] include a wide range of central control processes of the brain that connect, prioritize, and integrate other functions needed for self-management. Executive functions appear to be centered in the prefrontal cortex, though other brain regions such as portions of the cerebellum are also involved.

and:

Despite alterations of nomenclature [in subsequent versions of the DSM], increasing numbers of researchers have been studying cognitive impairments associated with ADHD. Many have utilised various cognitive tests originally developed by neuropsychologists to evaluate for frontal lobe impairments from stroke, schizophrenia, or traumatic brain injury.

All of this helps to explain the efficacy of psychostimulants in the treatment of AD/HD's chronic symptoms. The medications aid transmission and reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine, resulting in better synaptic response in affected areas of the brain. The similar model supported for anti-depressants such as SSRI's are also suspected by some to aid in neuronal regrowth.

Incidentally, here is a fascinating new study showing how the adult brain reproduces cells for the suspected purpose of life long learning. Neuroplasticity is such an important concept in understanding how psychiatric disorders are rooted in both the biologic and enviornmental. Though psychiatry and neurology are in their infancy as disciplines, we are learning exponentially more each day. We can now even see down to neuronal responses and growth:

A Critical Period for Enhanced Synaptic Plasticity in Newly Generated Neurons of the Adult Brain

I'm trying to assume good faith, and it is possible I have musunderstood and misrepresented something user:Jkhamlin has written. But that anyone with significant biologic coursework and an eventual interest in medical practice or research would deny that the overwhelming amount of research being produced as regards to AD/HD, and other mood and psychiatric disorders supports a neurologic basis for mental illness is either, well, astounding, or calls into question their university's accreditation. I would think a simple search of PubMed could instantly provide hundreds of double-blind, repeatable, peer reviewed medical research supporting such a neurobiologic basis.

Cheers, Mrdarcey 01:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

My apologies. I missed [user:Jkhamlin]'s comment above about schizophrenia and bipolarity having organic causes. I managed to conflate his arguments with those of the unsigned poster who continually rants about nothing in the DSM having a biological componant. I still believe the basic point remains: I'm not sure how you qualify the statements of the leading researchers into AD/HD, most of whom have appointments at major research universities, as "fringe science" or can dispute the fantastic amount of literature on this subject publicly available. I eagerly await any proof to the contrary.--Mrdarcey 14:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Work in progress

Glad to see work happening; for a sample, similar featured article, Tourette syndrome might be helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, work... Too much time has been spent on fruitless discussions with masters of the red herring. In defending the notion that ADHD is neurological in nature I've learned a few things while researching. ADHD and Tourettes have some differences. One of the major differences is that ADHD appears to have some heterogeneous populations within the definition and that makes it difficult to make difinitive declarations about the disorder. For instance one can get the diagnosis if one has had a brain injury. There also seems to be a distinct population known as "SCT". One term that is used by researchers is "neurodevelopmental". I like that better then neurobehavioural because not all ADHD fits the disruptive behaviour profile.

Thanks for example of the Tourettes page, I'll use it as an example for further edits. I'm still kind of green with regard conventions of Wiki. --scuro 16:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Tourette's populations are not homogeneous either :-) Notice how the interplay between genetic and epigenetic factors is dealt with in that article. The non-genetic factors impacting upon the genetic vulnerability to the condition are more strongly proven in ADHD than in TS, but it is still a neurological condition nonetheless (both are, with environmental impacts). At any rate, I agree about the time wasted on some issues, when this article has massive deficiencies that need to be addressed, including undue weight to speculative items while the serious research isn't even covered. I'm going to be traveling for three weeks, but let me know if I can help after that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we should use epigenetic in titles instead of environment factors, anyone else have any expansions on this idea or any comments? Edward Bower 03:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

After looking at one of your Wiki style references I do think we need to add a Prognosis, and Prevention or Screening section. I'm not going to bother with standard forms of puncuation, capitalization, or bullet styles. The intro can also be improved. I have a little time this week and I'll try to get at it. --scuro 04:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

missed the point

You missed the point. What is more reliable- the consensus among a select bunch of researchers, many of whom have extensive conflicts of interests, or the consensus from NIH...?

NIH doesn't mention neurological disorder.

This could be a good article, but it sure isn't yet, because the sources being used are not scientific sources (in the example of the neurological issue). THere are other issues throughout, though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.248.242 (talk) 23:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

Give it up User:68.35.248.242

Give it up User:68.35.248.242. Your viewpoints belong in the controversy of adhd article. "extensive conflicts of interests" could come right off Fred Baughman's website. Again it doesn't matter what you believe, Wiki wants reliable citations. Virtually every researcher and all the US national institutions that deal with ADHD would not see it that way. Yours isn't even the minority viewpoint of experts but rather the controversial viewpoint.

Your NIH point is just another in a long line of red herrings not ment to improve the article. The 1998 consensus was about diagnosis and treatment, hence the title, "Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)". The later and international consensus clearly makes the link between ADHD, the brain, and genetics. --scuro 12:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

last word, wrong

I believe you are incorrect. Here is why.

The viewpoints of others are irrelevant to what I am saying and I believe those that author and edit this site frequently write off any criticism as coming from a radical point of view and do not stop to consider the validity of claims. I am not Fred Baughman.

If you go to the NIH Consensus Statement on ADHD (at http://consensus.nih.gov/1998/1998AttentionDeficitHyperactivityDisorder110html.htm) you will see that it defines ADHD. This is the National Institute of Health's definition of ADHD.

The Internation Consensus Statement on ADHD is simply the point of view of some ADHD researchers. Indeed, some of them are very prominent. But it has a clear bias. They cite no evidence to demonstrate an empirically-driven change in position from 1998 to 2002.

To say that NIH's conclusions should be discarded in lieu of this open letter is very interersting and difficult to justiy. On what basis would you conclude that NIH is wrong (the word 'neurological' does not appear in the text of the document).

It seems to me that scientific consensus is important when it supports people's point of view, but when it doens't, other sources are quickly found.

Neither the 1998 NIH statement nor the DSM define ADHD as neurological. Yet it still defined that way here on the basis of this open letter.

Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.248.242 (talk) 10:15, 15 March 2007

You say, "I believe those that author and edit this site frequently write off any criticism as coming from a radical point of view and do not stop to consider the validity of claims".

Where does this validity that you speak of come from, I ask? Certainly we are not to take your unsupported thoughts and insert them into the article? Find the references from national institutions, respected publications, or respected members in the field. So far we have no support for what you say. Since there are no references why is it not correct to classify them as controversial especially since many of the ideas stated originally can from Scientology and the Antipsychiatry movement?

I'm not even going justify your NIH comments with a response because you are once again playing games by totally ignoring the 2002 international consensus statement when you made any of your conclusions. How can you so blatantly ignore such evidence even when it has been pointed out to you directly several times? Enough already. --scuro 19:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The use of terms Epigenetic vrs. environmental

From what I have read, Epigenetic changes in genes beyond a few rare genetic conditions is far from conclusive. See Wikipedia's article on epigenetics. As far as I am aware, epigenetic occurrences with ADHD has not even casually been made. I believe the term environmental should stay. --scuro 20:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

mediate

someone should get somebody to mediate this dispute....DSM and NIH are quite authoritative... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fred1001 (talk • contribs) 21:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

psyche

I've ignored no evidence. I've made the point before but my post was deleted. There is a difference between NIH, the DSM, and an open advocacy letter authored by scientists with a certain point of view. It's appropriate to note what they said, somewhere in the article, but to think that they have the accurate definition of what ADHD is- in contradiction to NIH and DSM- makes no sense whatsoever.

There are levels of evidence. Certainly that letter goes down the list from DSM and NIH. I am concerned that people editing his page seem to think that just because a letter says it is authoritative, and it is available on the web, it is.

In fact DSM and NIH should be used as authoritative sources and alternate points of view might be noted.

The problems with evaluating evidence can be found throughout the article, but the fact that it leads off with a definition contradicint NIH and DSM is a pretty big problem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.248.242 (talk) 21:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

"neurological in nature"

"neurological in nature" is cited by an excellent source in the article, that is all Wikipedia wants. Period. As Wikipedians that is all we should care about. There is no debate because once again we have no citations for any other viewpoint. I welcome new viewpoints that can be referenced. But, this is really is getting silly, can I kindly ask that unless citations are brought to the discussion area that we stop with this? You can debate this issue at ADDF forums if you like.--scuro 23:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That source is only excellent in your opinion. I refer you back to the real international consensus the DSM and the ICD.--Jkhamlin 17:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

dishonesty or confusion?

Are you kidding me? The DSM and the NIH are the two most authoritative sources and I've posted them repeatedly, they are always wiped out or edited out. The source that is being used is NOT authoritative, it is simply an open letter by some scientists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.248.242 (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

citations

CITE #1: DSM (see above- DEFINES ADHD and does not say it is neurological) CITE #2: http://consensus.nih.gov/1998/1998AttentionDeficitHyperactivityDisorder110html.htm

THose are the citations. THere was an edit earlier which integrated both these citations but it was deleted and replaced with the International Consensus Statement.

Again, what makes that more authoritative than DSM or NIH?

No one wants to listen, they just promote their own point of view....just because ADHD involves the brain does NOT mean that it is considered a neurological issue- that's commonsensical, not good science or an accurate reflection of the way mental health is conceptualized.

need editor

{{helpme}}

I feel like this page really needs an editor to visit it.

To restate the issues that have been re-stated again and again:

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) defines what ADHD is- there are hundreds of experts that come to a consensus. This consensus document does not say that ADHD is neurological in nature.

Also as referenced above, the Consensus Statement from the National Institute of Health in 1998 did not conclude that it was neurological, and there has not been any great findings from 1998-present in terms of etiology. (The DSM definition for instance, did not change).

People keep inserting that ADHD is a neurological disorder because it involves the brain. There is a consensus statement from pro-medication advocates that calls it such but this document is simply an open letter and has no authority.

At present ADHD is a mental disorder. This is how it is classified in the DSM, in abnormal psychology textbooks, in graduate psychopathology courses, etc., etc.

There has been constant back-and-forth over this VERY simple point and people keep inserting statements that are speculative. Informatoin can be found on the web that says that ADHD is neurological but this does not mean this is scientific consensus or factual.

Someone should revise this page so that includes the DSM definition and the NIH consensus information is great also. If they want to include the statement that some people think it is neurological, fine, but the governing body in charge of defining the disorder, and the largest health research organization on the planet- neither find that it is neurological.

You're grossly misleading anyone who visits this page.

68.35.248.242 23:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)Donedonedone

Please don't use {{helpme}} for content disputes... and 68, if you follow our host of guidelines/policies (eg WP:ATT, WP:NPOV), feel free to be bold in updating the page yourself (or see the manual of style for formatting issues). If someone disagrees with you and you want a third opinion, see WP:3. Gracenotes^T § 00:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

To restate the issues from the perspective that the phrase "neurological in nature" should be left in the article.

-several editors over a period of time have deleted the words "neurological in nature", in the opening sentence of the main article. The only citations given for doing so was the DSM4 and the 1998 document entitled, "Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)". Both documents are used to assist in the diagnosis of ADHD. They are not authoritative or summative documents about the nature of ADHD.

-four excellent citations are used in the article to support the contention that ADHD is "neurological in nature" which includes the 2002 International Consensus Statement on ADHD which states, "This is why leading international scientists, such as the signers below, recognize the mounting evidence of neurological and genetic contributions to this disorder". Three other citations come from highly respected national mental health institutions.--scuro 12:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

neuro

I just looked up the International statement that is cited as evidence. nowhere does it claim that ADHD is neurological.

I think I am really done for real this time, but this exemplifies the problem with wiki...even the most simple facts here cannot be accurately maintained without a level of commitment that I don't have. I don't care if this entry is correct, and fact is, it's NOT. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dareu2move (talk • contribs).

I've already commented waaaay above that the distinction between the two sciences is often arbitrary and artificial. You are finding more significance than there is for this situation. Also, the main reason you are getting so much resistance with this is because you are trying to change the wording as an attack on the topic of ADHD. Maybe that's just my wild speculations for your motives, maybe I'm not assuming good faith, but looking at your contribs I'd bet you're here to push a POV far more than actually improve the article. The POV pushing is obvious, that's why we revert you. This would be the same for any article, medication, children, or even something on a plant. -- Ned Scott 03:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

it's not worth discussing anymore

The points have been made. Yes, please bring in a moderator and spare the drama.--scuro 04:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

NO POV

There is no POV here. There is an effort to make sure the information included here is scientific, a cause I fear is largely lost. Information in mental health is not commonsensical. This page at present mostly includes a common-sense but inaccurate portrayal of ADHD. I tried to modify the page so it was congruent with NIH and DSM yet this was objected to...enough said! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.35.248.242 (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

further changes to make the article reach the standard of GA

Sorry if I stepped on some toes. The article was becoming a real hodgepodge of info and was visually distracting.--scuro 04:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Certainly unreferenced statements should be deleted. As it currently reads, this article needs a good editing. Maybe someone could make some suggestions here? JohnsonRon 18:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Took a crack at the opening paragraph in an attempt to meet the standard of a GA. I'm not totally pleased with my efforts. I did try to include important info but perhaps someone else can make it all flow a little better. --scuro 00:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Peer review

I'm not a scientist, but I do understand that a significant factor in the discussion and editing of the ADHD article centers on making sure that the information contained therein is as scientific as possible. As I understand the scientific process, peer review by persons with expertise in the area in question is significantly important. As I read the discussion (I'm new to this aspect of Wikipedia) I found myself wanting to know the credentials of each participant to help me weigh what they had to say. Are the statements and edits in the article coming from actual peers (authorities in the medical field) or by people who just have a well-educated (and definitely better educated than me) interest?

As one who wrestles with ADHD on a daily basis (I have it and so does one of my children), I have a strong desire to see this article meet the highest standards of scientific credibility possible. As the son, brother, and brother-in-law of pediatricians (one of whom is an expert in genetics research), I understand that medicine is indeed a science and that science constantly reviews what it knows in light of new information and research. A biology professor friend of mine confirms that true science is never afraid to say, "Here's where the limits of our knowledge are. Beyond this, we don't know ... but we're trying to find out."

Just my 2 cents' worth.

15:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)MoDrig3

Every statement that I have made can be backed up by summations of peer reviewed evidence. I don't cite every point that I make because it is time consuming. If you do look at the article, some of the statements are not definitive. This is because we don't know some things about ADHD and because the diagnosis of ADHD may encompasses two or more conditions. --scuro 16:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Acknowledged. As I reflect on what I perused that prompted my previous comment, it seems to me that most of the debate I read centers on 1) exactly where the limits of the scientific data are; and, 2) proper interpretation and implications of the data we do have. Having said all that, even though it is no longer considered GA, it is still very informative. 66.191.222.123 17:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)MoDrig3

For interpretation of data I like this off of the web. http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course003.php

What are the limits of scientific data? There is an abundance of evidence that indicates ADHD is a real disorder which significantly impairs those with the disorder. The exact mechanisms of the disorder are unknown at this time but again there is an abundance of evidence that indicates that the disorder has a very strong herditability factor...even more so then height or intelligence.

--scuro 20:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You answered the question about limits in your response: "The exact mechanisms of the disorder are unknown ..." I just glanced through the course link you gave. I look forward to reading it at length in the future.

As the owner of an ADD brain and the father of a teenager who wrestles with ADD as well as Asperger's Syndrome, OCD (focus-shift, not ritual behavioral), and a non-verbal LD I will continue to reference this article regularly. I recommended it in a talk I gave last night to our local NAMI chapter on my personal experiences with ADD.

While I will probably continue to watch developments and discussion, it seems unlikely that I will have anything substantive to add. I hope and pray that the editors of this article succeed in restoring it to GA status. That would please me greatly.

Best regards. MoDrig3 16:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC) MoDrig3

The exact mechanism for all disorders are unknown. Recent studies typically point to multiple gene involvement with mental disorders...some researchers are suggesting that some may have over 10O genes so we may not have a clear mechanism for some time to come. That doesn't make OCD, ADHD, Autism, or Schizophrenia any less real.

The good article status doesn't mean a great deal. That only means the article has met Wiki standards. It's like an essay with the right form...it doesn't mean that information is conveyed in the most meaningful way possible. Nor does it mean that the best information has been selected for the article.

I edit simply so those who are new to the topic are not mislead. Since Wikipedia is an information source for many, some will try to manipulate for propoganda purposes, especially for topics like ADHD. --scuro 22:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Alternative treatment

ALternative treatments should be kept in the treatment section. We do not need new subsections. Either the alternative treatment has shown some degree of clinical success or it shouldn't make it into the main article. For this reason I have removed the brain exercise paragraph and smoking paragraph(the smoking section is good info but doesn't belong in the treatment section unless someone wants to make this case in discussion)

Another possibility is to start a new article entitled Alternative treatments for ADHD. --scuro 16:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So what is THIS? """"Treatment Main article: Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder treatments There are several clinically proven effective options available to treat people diagnosed with ADHD. It has been believed that ADHD is treated most effectively, and cost efficiently, with medication.[39] However, recent long term studies now cast serious doubt to this assertion. "[D]rugs such as Ritalin and Concerta work no better than therapy after three years of treatment. The findings by an influential US study also suggested long-term use of the drugs could stunt children's growth. It said that the benefits of drugs had previously been exaggerated."[1] Psychotherapy is another option, with or without medication[40] Omega-3 fatty acids, zinc and magnesium may have benefits with regards to ADHD symptoms.[41][42]""""

What ARE the clinically proven options? We "believe" in them? Yet, there is serious doubt.

So long as our society uses Ritalin at many times the rate of other Western cultures, considerable doubts about the over-diagnosis of ADHD and the over-prescription of speed SHOULD REMAIN as part of the article. As it stands, there is NO mention of the very high Ritalin usage rate in the USA. It seems as though this has been purged. Homebuilding207.178.98.126 (talk) 02:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference from Methylphenidate: 'Hyperactivity Paradox Resolved?'

Removed this ref from Methylphenidate, as the drugs tested didn't include that drug:

<ref>{{cite web |url=http://psychiatry.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/1999/301/1 |title=Hyperactivity Paradox Resolved? |accessdate=2006-11-11 |work=Journal Watch }}</ref>

It doesn't look like it's referenced here, but it might be an interesting thing to add in somewhere.--Eloil 22:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

this article should be linked to this catagory

Catagory:Neurological disorders

It should be linked to psychiatric disorders categoory. If we link it to that then we'd have to link depression, schizophrenia, bipolar, all the personalities etc. and then the category would lose its meaning. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 05:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

ADHD has links to several catatgories, you don't have to link it to just one. Either the disorder is neurological in nature or it is not. The main article documents why it belongs in that catagory.

Some disorders in the the DSM4 don't belong in that catagory because some disorders are mainly caused by enviornmental factors. Major Depression, Schizophrenia, and BiPolar would all belong in the neurological catagory.

--scuro 11:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that there is a reasonable amount of data to support the statement that ADHD is a bioneurological disorder...the effects of stimulants is one example (those with ADHD calm, those without it become quite active). I think the category is fine. JohnsonRon 16:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

And differing responses to Ritalin somehow prove a neurological disorder? My friend drinks alcohol and gets argumentative. I drink alcohol and go to sleep. So what have we proved? 208.181.100.29 16:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I fear ADHD is a terribly circular diagnosis. Responding to Ritalin is sometimes the standard used. 208.181.100.20 17:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Digging through the Drama

Ok, after reading through some of these posts, I think it's about time that we start to dig through the drama and start working on actually getting down to some hard core research and some reliable facts about ADD/ADHD. I'd personally like to see that we all put aside all this and just quit arguing about who's right, who's wrong and what ADD/ADHD is or isn't. To be honest I'm a little disappointed that this page was removed, because some information, good, bad or otherwise, is still better than no information. I'm collecting some research on Attention-Deficit Disorder (Attention-Deficit Hyperactive Disorder) and I'd like to see that ffor the common good some other users here do as well. If we collabourate and work together we should be able to get some reliable facts, and we should be able to get this page up again to share the knowledge with others in no time. EricaSheaBell 15:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The irony of course is that you have created more drama with your post. I have no problem that the article was taken off the good article status. When the shortcomings were pointed out, I could see the difficulties. Suggestions were made to improve it. I've worked on those suggestions. I hope others follow suit. --16:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am well aware of the irony of my post. Sadly Drama is as much a part of life as breathing. For certain I will be doing what I can to improve this article with reliable facts, hopefully on the positive and negative side of Attention-Deficit Disorder. I read a while back that there was some reasurch being done to see if it wasn't so much a disorder as it was another stage of human evolution, a new way for our brains to keep up with the fast pace of technology and society. Anybody heard anything similar to this? If there's any underlying truth to it, it might be something to consider adding as part of the article. EricaSheaBell 19:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That's controversial, from what I here, so it should go into the controversial fork off of this article, but I don't know, if you provide me with a citation then maybe it's something that's solid and I can make a better judgement on it.Edward Bower 05:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Erica, the "hunter in a farmer's society theory" proposed by Thom Hartman is quite the opposite theory, stating that it's innovative but impatient hunter children that are now diagnosed with ADHD. I haven't heard of your theory, but if you find out more about it, it certainly fits in Controversy about ADHD: Alternative theories concerning ADHD.

However, one of the criteria for ADHD is: "There must be clear evidence of significant impairment in social, school, or work functioning." So even if these alternative theories of ADHD would be correct, we're still talking about individuals that are impaired in their functioning in today's society. And ADHD is certainly not the only disorder in which the context (present day society) plays an important role.Lova Falk 08:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Briefly, the idea that ADHD would be a selective adaptation of the species is a bit of a stretch. ADHD impairs a host of cognitive skill sets and is associated with numerous diminished live outcomes. How could that benefit the species? --scuro 05:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Odd statement

"About 20% to 25% of children with ADHD meet criteria for a learning disorder."

Isn't ADHD a learning disability? Therefore don't 100% of children with ADHD have learning disorders? William conway bcc 05:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Well it gets a little complicated. Generally speaking there are two, possibly three types of ADHD. The DSM labels them as hyperactive, combo, and inattentive. Research is pointing more towards those who are or were hyperactive(former hyperactive and combo) and inattentive. Within the inattentive is a possible new subgroup which very much has an LD profile. (see sluggish cognitive tempo. The hyper and combo type is seen more as a behavioural disorder with difficulties in impulse control/behaviour and task perseverance/and what can be described as a time blindness. About the only thing that fits the LD criteria is difficulty with working memory.--scuro 12:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

However, presently difficulty with working memory is not a diagnosis criterium for ADHD, and personally I wonder if everybody with ADHD actually has difficulty with working memory, or if this is just a theory. I recently tested a kid with ADHD with excellent non-verbal working memory...

And no, ADHD is not a learning disability. There are lots of ADHD children who have no trouble learning once they get treatment and / or their environment is adjusted to their needs. Lova Falk 13:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ya just to corroberate what Lova Falk said; ADHD is not said to be a learning disorder. In fact, there are some children with ADHD who may score very high on intelligence quotient tests; I am not meaning not to imply anything about the intelligence quotient scores for youngsters with learning disorders. I believe it is considered to be a developmental disorder. Edward Bower 16:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Rearrangement of the opening

I rearranged the opening of the article so the information is presented in a more logical order so the characteristics of ADHD are presented first, followed by the demographics, and then finally the information on the causes of ADHD. I think this is an improvement over the previous format which had information about the causes and heritability first, then the demographics, and finally the characteristics. When someone who doesn't know what ADHD is reads this article they will want to know what the characteristics are first and then about the demographics and heritability. Other articles about disorders like bipolar disorder and clinical depression describe the characteristics first as well. If anyone has concerns or objections, I would love to discuss them with you and reach a consensus. Sifaka ^talk 02:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

restoration of text.

I am not sure what happened but a large amount of text was removed for some reason. I didn't see one on the talk page so I am restoring it. If anyone objects, please discuss it here. Thanks. Sifaka ^talk 02:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the stuff you re-added detracts from the value, I dont think it's should be here, What do you think the importance of it is?Edward Bower 03:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

My primary concern was that I just noticed that it was deleted all of a sudden for a reason I couldn't determine, so I fixed it. In terms of relevancy while a lot of it seems to be very drug specific and kind of nitty gritty, some of it is definitely important and should be kept for sure. ADHD coaching, questions about metabolism in people with and without ADHD, and widely used alternative treatments for example. Personally, I think people should go though the treatment section for relevancy piece by piece rather than mass delete it. Perhaps to cut down on all the drug specific bits, a separate article on treatments for ADHD could be created. Or it could be deleted. I just want to reach a consensus. Sifaka ^talk 03:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Ya if a consensus can be had then that would be great, but it was taken out and not questioned in talk till now so in a way that was a consensus (but a very poor quality implied consensus at best)

What if we took it all out again and then only put it back in peice by peice. But an even better idea was the one you had, about having a separate article on treatments for ADHD. I would love to collaborate with you (and others too) on making such an article.Edward Bower 06:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Removing from wikiprojects

I am starting to think that this article should be taken off the Psychology and Medicine wikiprojects. What do ya'll think?Edward Bower 00:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

What would be the rationale of doing a thing like that? Has it been taken out of the DSM? -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

If there was a DSM wikiproject then it would belong in the DSM wikiproject. I don't think psychologywikiproject and medicine wikiproject adiquetly relavent to this article, I think it'd be better being in no wikiprojects. But I want to know what others think above all131.156.184.221 05:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I find the notion that a disorder listed in the DSM is not relevant to WikiProject Medicine to be bizarre in the extreme. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ya I see your point, What do you make of the noton of this article being not relevant to the psychology wikiproject?131.156.184.147 22:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Edward, why would you do that? Lova Falk 06:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's in the scope of psychology wikiproject, it doesn't really matter I suppose, but I'm interested in understanding why others think it might be in the scope of the psychology wikiproject131.156.220.14 17:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate if users could use their user name or otherwise identify themselves, because I find it hard to have a discussion not knowing if I'm talking to the same person or not. Are the three users: 131.156...... all three the same person as Edward Bower, or is it four different persons???

Anyway, to get back to the discussion, saying that it's not in the scope of psychology wikiproject, doesn't really clarify anything. Why doesn't it??? I've looked at the description of the psychology wikiproject, and it says:

High: Subject contributes a depth of knowledge to the field of psychology. Most experts in psychology will be familiar with the topic. The subject can be found in most academic studies of psychology, and a significant amount of published research exists for it. Example: Schizophrenia

Mid: Subject fills in more minor details but is still important to the field of psychology. Many psychologists are knowledgeable of the topic. Published research from a variety of sources exists for the subject. Example: Big Five personality traits

Personally, I would say that ADHD might not be as well known as schizophrenia, but sure lots of psychologists are knowledgeable on ADHD, and the amount of published research for ADHD is huge. Research is done both by psychologists and psychiatrists, so according to me, ADHD belongs both to psychology and to medicine wikiproject. Lova Falk 18:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Any Psychologist who didn't know about ADHD should be fired. ADHD would make up a good deal of their business. ADHD is also the most studied childhood disorder ever with thousands of studies. I would also guess that all experts in the field would be familiar with ADHD as they would be Autism. It is a highly impairing disorder and to work in that field and be ignorant of it would be a liability. --scuro 21:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you're referring to clinical psychologists. For most others, ADHD will be 0% of their business, however, they will have covered it in passing. And there are a good number of research psychologists active in studying ADHD. I think this removal has been suggested before, but didn't pass muster then. --Limegreen 21:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I've seen many ADHD kids rip a marriage apart. Regardless, let me rephrase my statement above...Any psychologist who deals with children would make a good deal of their money from children with ADHD. Psychologists in the workplace should also know about this disorder because again, the workplace and school are the two places where the impairment is most obvious. The stats on ADHD and marriage breakdown are also notable, and a good counsellor should be up on the disorder too. Anyways...ADHD is the #1 child developmental disorder, for that reason alone it should be included in psychology category. --scuro 22:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow ya really good points, glad I didn't just remove it would have been a bad move. (and ya those other IPs were just me, sometimes my browser signs me in sometimes it doesn't, ill try to be mroe concious of it)Edward Bower 04:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Even Zametkin has stated that his PET scan study was faulty. This information needs to be removed.

The section about the PET scan studies of cerebral glucose metabolism needs to be removed. This study has been found to be unreliable to say the least. Zametkin himself could not reproduce these results and further analysis has shown errors in the the colecting and interpreting of the data. All the subsequent claims about differances in brain metabolism were based on this study. It is imparative that this false notion be stopped until it is either verified or disproven. In this article Zametkin states that he could not reproduce the results:

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1996 Nov;53(11):1059-61.

Brain metabolism in teenagers with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Zametkin AJ, Liebenauer LL, Fitzgerald GA, King AC, Minkunas DV, Herscovitch P, Yamada EM, Cohen RM.

Section on Clinical Brain Imaging, National Institute of Mental Health, Bethesda, Md.

....."CONCLUSIONS: Global or absolute measures of metabolism using positron emission tomography and fludeoxyglucose F18 did not statistically differentiate between normal adolescents with ADHD. Positron emission tomography scans can be performed and are well tolerated by normal teenagers and teenagers with ADHD. The feasibility of normal minors participating in research involving radiation was established." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.173.212.154 (talk) 02:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

The more Wikipedic approach would be to note that the PET scan study done in such and such a year appeared to indicate, etc., etc., but also note that Zametkin, one of the researchers on that study, later reported himself unable to reproduce the results of the study. Simply removing mention of it altogether as if it had never existed, when obviously it did exist and had a significant effect, is not the best solution. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

flogging the Zametkin dead cat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder/archive3#zametkin_issue There are several entries there dealing with this issue. --scuro 02:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder treatments

I forked this article out of the Treatments section because it was becoming rather listy and unwieldy. If you have any comments or suggestions please reply. Sifaka ^talk 00:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC) I also reduced the length of the treatment section and noted the new main article. If you think I took something important out or over emphasized something please let me know. Sifaka ^talk 00:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I was trying to get info on ADD but this seems to be about ADHD only

I thought there was a slight difference between the two, and that with ADHD hyperactivity was a symptom, but that it didn't necessarily factor in to ADD. I may be wrong here. Is there actually a difference between the two, and if so, why is this article about ADHD instead of ADD?--Jcvamp 20:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll understand it better if you read an older version of this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder&oldid=75974226 Edward Bower 20:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Significant difference between the two especially if hyperactivity was never really present. Hyperactivity is often associated with ODD. All subtypes fall under the ADHD umbrella. Also take a look at sluggish cognitive tempo which is very different from classic hyperactive ADHD. --scuro 05:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Inventor of ADHD Speaks Out

This would seem to call into question the diagnosis and the book used to diagnose.

A result in a poll of psychiatrists of the ten WORST psychiatric research documents:

DSM-IV - Diagnostic and Statistical Manual: (4th ed). Containing every psychiatric diagnosis, it is criticised for reducing psychiatry to a checklist. "If you are not in DSM-IV, you are not ill. It has become a monster, out of control."

(Excerpt from THE INDEPENDENT (London) March 19, 2001, Monday; Pg. 5 By Jeremy Laurance Health Editor)

Bizfixer 21:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Bizfixer, in my opinion, this is the type of thing that belongs in your blog, why have you posted this on a talk page?Edward Bower 02:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

trying to find a link that used to be there...

Pardon me if I'm intruding or if you think I'm wildly off-topic, or if I'm supposed to post this somewhere else. I remember reading this article some months ago, and seeing at the bottom an interesting section referencing "fictional characters with ADD", and a list of such characters with links to information about them. I wanted to refer someone I know to look at that, only now I can't find it.

Does anyone remember having seen this? Any idea how I could find it again?
Many thanks. --69.3.123.87 15:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well... if you know how many months ago yo can entry the history of the article and look at one of the versions of those days to see if you find it... every version of the article is saved so you can always find it... but if you don't know when it was it can take you quite a while. Anyway, have you tried google?. --Garrondo 16:48, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I found a link that could have been used as a source for the History section. http://www.doctorsreview.com/archives/2007/no_06/jun07-history_medicine.html

Having reviewed Shakespeare's play Henry VIII from multiple sources, I found no mention of a "malady of attention" in the text. Maybe I overlooked something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.50.109 (talk) 06:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

^That was me. Sorry I wasn't logged in. Has anyone else looked into this? Assuming Shakespeare did write something of this nature, is it not feasible that he was indeed referring to Henry VIII being married numerous times? Which, in my opinion, could indicate a "malady of attention" but not in the context of this article. As for Heinrich Hoffman's literary works, they can be found Here. It has them in German and Mark Twain's English translation. AzmarovBohenski 20:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The link is also mentioned here. http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course003.php--scuro 22:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I've seen it mentioned in numerous sources except for the one that matters, Henry VIII. I've read through the play five times now and have not actually seen it mentioned in the play. It isn't really important, I'm not an English major.AzmarovBohenski 03:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

multiple additions to talk and NPOV tag added by Jkhamlin

Jkhamlin, if you believe there is bias please succinctly state why the tag was put on with citations (WP:V) to back your contention. Please don't refer to what's being taught in university or make other claims unless you can specifically cite this through a reliable source such as the NYT. If these can't be provided the NPOV tag should go off.--scuro 19:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The tag has again been removed until sufficient evidence for its presence can be established by either the user mentioned above, or someone else with a strong, supported position. DashaKat 20:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I and others here have repeatedly referred to the scientific literature and publications by expert organizations that clearly show that the neutrality of the neurology zealots is in question. The neurology zealots, I guess including yourself, have been quick to leap over and discount this mountain of evidence in favor of their little molehill. Please reread everything on the talk page. All references have already been made repeatedly. The only support anyone can muster for the neurology argument is the opinion piece of the fringe group of "scientists" that is referenced on the neurology statement on the article page, therefore, the NPOV tag is not only appropriate, but obligatory. This reference is not a neutral reference, it is an advocacy piece. The burden of proof is on the neurology zealots, since their position is contrary to the position held by the scientific world and supported by research. DashaKat, you are a new user. Please don't do anything so rash as to violate policies here such as reverting edits without good faith and legitimate reason.--Jkhamlin 20:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not in the least-wise a new user. I've been editing here for several years, and have been Editor Zero on several articles in Psych. And, I have not violated policy, but, rather, asked that anything so rash as placing an NPOV tag at the top of a page be supported with evidence on the discussion page of the article specific to the placing of that tag, not buried in the depths of some other conversation or an archive.

Further, as to violating policy, your alleged education does not preclude the necessity on your part of advancing civility to your fellow editors. That said, regards your comments to other, more respected, editors on this page, if you'd care to go toe-to-toe in a debate I suspect you will find yourself ill-equipped.

Finally, as an, also alleged, practitioner of martial arts, you might want to work on the Humility pillar a bit. Put your grand-standing soapboxing nonesense away and cooperate with maybe some lesser and maybe some greater minds than your own, rathe rthan beoing so aggregeously positional. It'll do your heart good. Cheers! DashaKat 20:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Be civil(WP:CIV) and no soapboxing(WP:NOT#SOAP). The tag was added by you. The burden of proof lies with you. --scuro 21:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Just dropped in and read thru the neurological debate. Clearly someone has an axe to grind. Can ADHD be effectively treated by therapy? Generally, no. Therapy can teach coping mechanisms, but the underlying problems remain. On the other hand, medication addresses the underlying chemical imbalance. It isn't a cure, but it is an effective treatment. If it is a brain chemistry problem, then it is a NEUROLOGICAL problem. 74s181 04:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have put an entry above in the section "Neurological in nature?" linking several articles from a leading medical researcher and a leading research psychologist supporting a neurologic basis for mood disorders and AD/HD. A simple PubMed search would provide hundreds, if not thousands, of others. I'd say the burden of proof lies with user:Jkhamlin to provide proof beyond semantic arguments over what the DSM and WHO say or don't.

Also, I am unclear as to why people are attempting to engage in a semantic argument by reference to the NIH definition to begin with. Several of the researchers you have deemed "fringe scientists" have worked on NIH research. Furthermore, a quick glance through the NIMH [webpage] turns up the following:

Yet it was not until 1902 that Sir George F. Still published a series of lectures to the Royal College of Physicians in England in which he described a group of impulsive children with significant behavioral problems, caused by a genetic dysfunction and not by poor child rearing—children who today would be easily recognized as having ADHD. Since then, several thousand scientific papers on the disorder have been published, providing information on its nature, course, causes, impairments, and treatments.

and

Professionals Who Make the Diagnosis.

If ADHD is suspected, to whom can the family turn? What kinds of specialists do they need?

Ideally, the diagnosis should be made by a professional in your area with training in ADHD or in the diagnosis of mental disorders. Child psychiatrists and psychologists, developmental/behavioral pediatricians, or behavioral neurologists are those most often trained in differential diagnosis. (emphasis mine)

This from the NIMH [pamphlet] on AD/HD, which has several footnotes like these:

8The ADHD Molecular Genetics Network. Report from the third international meeting of the attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder molecular genetics network. American Journal of Medical Genetics, 2002, 114:272-277.

9Castellanos FX, Lee PP, Sharp W, Jeffries NO, Greenstein DK, Clasen LS, Blumenthal JD, James RS, Ebens CI, Walter JM, Zijdenbos A, Evans AC, Giedd JN, Rapoport JL. Developmental trajectories of brain volume abnormalities in children and adolescents with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Journal of the American Medical Association, 2002, 288:14:1740-1748.

Furthermore, there is a link to this article:

[Brain Changes Mirror Symptoms in ADHD]

And, at another point, to go slightly off topic since you have called into question the neurobiologic basis of all psychiatric diagnoses, this about bipolarity:

[Genetic Roots of Bipolar Disorder Revealed by First Genome-Wide Study of Illness: Targeting enzyme produced by a specific gene may lead to better medications]

So, if the NIMH is talking about AD/HD and other psychiatric ailments in terms of neurology and the physical structure of the brain, what does it matter what their "definitions" are? Since psychiatric disorders are defined and treated according to symptoms, shouldn't we agree that what you are trying to quote is instead a discription? Where is your mountain of scientific literature then? Since I'm intimately concerned with this (and I suspect my psychiatrist may be as well), I'm listening. Honestly.--Mrdarcey 04:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Continued Ed Courses as reference

I'm going to revert the edits by DashaKat that removed the references to the ContinuingEdCourses, stating that they were not legitimate. I don't know anything about any other CED's, but the one that this article refered to was written by Russell A. Barkley, Ph.D., who is Research Professor of Psychiatry at the SUNY Upstate Medical University, Syracuse, NY, and Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, SC. He's is a recognized expert on ADHD, and the text itself (the one that Barkley wrote) is very well referenced. So I can't see why this would not be a legitimate reference. DashaKat, if you don't agree with me, please explain! Lova Falk 18:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The academic definition of a reference is something that you can go and read. While it is true that some individuals may have access to the esteemed Dr. Barkley's classes, not every one does. That makes the references not workable. Referencing them as not legitimate may have been too strong a turn of phrase, but my point was, if Dr. Barkley has published something, great, reference that. Citing course curriculum as supporting evidence just doesn't fly by Wiki standards, or any academci standards that I know of, as it is transient information. DashaKat 21:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm re-reverting. The reference provided is indeed "something that you can go and read," and I've seen no indication that the information is going to be taken down anytime soon. Until such time as the page is inaccessable, the reference is perfectly acceptable by Wikipedia standards: it is a well written article by an expert in the field which specifically mentions the point or topic it is intended to back up. The fact that it happens to be part of a course curriculum is irrelevant. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 21:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy states that articles be sourced "...to ensure that the content of articles is credible and can be checked by any reader or editor." The content of this article can be checked, but not via these sources, unless you are a student of the professor, or have access to the class notes. The original link brought you to a course outline, not an article. That precludes "any reader". Find another source. DashaKat 21:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You need to read the link in full. There is a large, large section underneath the general course outline detailing some of the points this author is making about ADHD, including the one the citation is there to back up. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 21:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not a course outline, it's the whole course. I'm undoing the undoing. --scuro 22:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Weak. DashaKat 13:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Research section? CPTs?

Considering that ADHD is one of the most researched areas in neuropsychology, I was surprised that there was no Current Research section in this article.

I was also surprised not to see any mention of Continuous Performance Tests. It has been common practice for the last decade (or two) for psychologists to use CPTs for ADHD screening and for psychiatrists and doctors to use CPTs to titrate medications and monitor development.

The article seems to get a lot of churn, so I'm hesitant to add these things myself. --IanOsgood 16:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It gets churn because of the agenda-driven contributions of a few editors. The additions you suggest would be welcome by most here. DashaKat 19:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You're funny DK. The article gets little churn...we just have POV pushers who try to insert bogus material or delete supported material. The CPT has little validity as a diagnositic tool and is not used much in current practice. I'd prefer not to see a current research section. Do other articles have one that I could look at? I'd fear that we would get every tidbit of research that POV pushers can dig up, without the relevance or analysis needed to spring stuff like that on the general public.--scuro 20:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Current research data should be -- can be -- incorporated into the article in the relevant section. CPT is becoming a less used methodology because of it's lack of validity as a DX tool. JohnsonRon 17:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

A chronic condition

Hi JohnsonRon! I reverted your change into a "chronic" condition, back into "non-curable". There is no cure for ADHD, but it can be outgrown - so it's not always chronic. Lova Falk 17:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

ADHD can't be outgrown. It's possible to learn to cope with ADHD, but it's still there. -- Ned Scott 18:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

How about a chronic and incurable condition? It is a developmental condition so the symptoms can change over time. eg Hyperactivity does disappear for a good number of you hyperactive kids but the impulsiveness remains.--scuro 19:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair. Incurable sounds a bit too medical, though. How about chronic and on-going?...although, I'd be in favor of chronic and incurable. MHO DashaKat 22:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Incurable suggests things like cancer, MS and liver failure which are progressive and don't remit. ADHD OTOH can be managed successfully so symptoms remit. As it lasts years its chronic. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 22:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It is currently thought that around 30% of children with AD/HD will outgrow their symptoms. For the other 70% who become adult sufferers of the disorder, the symptoms are very chronic. Perhaps someone can make use of that for the entry.--Mrdarcey 01:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Two sentences after "chronic" it says: It is believed that around 60% of children diagnosed with ADHD retain the disorder as adults. How can a condition be chronic if 40% of the children don't retain the disorder as adults?Lova Falk 15:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, that and the lock are why I didn't edit. I'm merely suggesting a compromise wording whereby it can be acknowledged that the condition is not chronic for some children, but is chronic for those who suffer continuing symptoms as adults. I agree the statement should not be chronic for the entirity of diagnoses.

Incidentally, CHADD's National Resource Center on AD/HD links an article by an Ed.D. saying the number of children who retain the disorder into young adulthood as 70-80%. There are a raft of statisitcal references, including two Barkley studies.

[Myths and Misconceptions About AD/HD: Science over Cynicism]

The section ends stating that, "Thus, AD/HD is a lifelong disorder that requires a developmental framework for appropriate diagnosis and treatment". The whole article is actually quite good.--Mrdarcey 18:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

NIMH and International Consensus Statement

In testimony before Congress in 2002, then Acting Direction of the NIMH, Dr. Richard Nakamura referenced and inserted the full International Consensus Statement into the Congressional Registry as evidentury proof of AD/HD. He also refers to the disorder as neurobiological and makes reference to the genetic correlations. For my money, that means neurologic in origin.

Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorders: Are Children Being Overmedicated?

First, let me tell you that I am not a clinician, nor am I a psychiatrist. I am trained in neuroscience—I am a Ph.D. scientist who studies the brain. But I am very well aware of the issue that has brought us here today.

...

ADHD...refers to a family of related chronic neurobiological disorders that interfere with an individual’s capacity to regulate activity level, inhibit behavior, and attend to tasks in developmentally appropriate ways. The exact etiology of ADHD is unknown, although neurotransmitter deficits, genetics, and perinatal complications have been implicated. ADHD tends to run in families. Between 10 and 35 percent of children with ADHD have a first-degree relative with past or present ADHD. Approximately one-half of parents who had ADHD have a child with the disorder.

...

A large consortium of international scientists, deeply concerned about the portrayal of ADHD as a "myth, fraud or a benign condition," signed a letter in which they expressed concern over the inaccurate notion that somehow ADHD is not real. Here is how they put it. (I will be happy to insert the entire statement in the Record)

...

NIMH is now supporting interdisciplinary research networks on ADHD, to translate what is already known in the basic sciences (particularly cognitive neuroscience, molecular genetics and biology) into clinical preventive, interventive and treatment strategies.

--Mrdarcey 16:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

To continue beating a very dead horse, NINDS refers to AD/HD as a both neurobiological and a developmental disorder here:

[NINDS Attention Deficit-Hyperactivity Disorder Information Page]

Furthermore, NINDS refers to developmental disorders as form of neurological disorder here:

[Brain Basics: Know Your Brain]

You can complete the syllogism yourself, I'm sure.--Mrdarcey 18:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

AD/HD and metabolism

I have been working on a project for Health, and was wondering on the connections between AD/HD and metabolism, if there are any. I have done some very broad internet searches that have all come up blank. however i see that there were questions of this type somewhere in the past of this article. Xiaden 02:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Citation Issues

"Only five percent of those with ADHD will get a college degree compared to twenty seven percent of the general population. (US Census, 2003)"

Was there a US census in 2003? William conway bcc 16:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Also "The prevalence among children and adults is estimated to be in the range of 4% to 8%.[45][46][47]" But "Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is generally considered to be a developmental disorder, largely neurological in nature, affecting between three and five percent of the population.[1][2][3]" There really shouldn't be conflicts of information within the same article

Well, there certainly was a publication from the Census Bureau using Census data regarding AD/HD in 2003.--Mrdarcey 19:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Could you give us a more specific citation? --*Kat* 01:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The sentence is badly written and misleading. I assumed that the note referred to this [1], which was indeed published in 2003/4. However it is only general statistical data for educational attainment in the population with regards to ethnicity and gender. Mea culpa. The 5% degree cite appears to be this, The adolescent outcome of hyperactive children diagnosed by research criteria: I. An 8-year prospective follow-up study, the first of a three part 1990 study by Barkley, et al. I think a more accurate complaint to the sentence is the age of that study compared to that of the census data.--Mrdarcey 00:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

ADD

I was very disappointed to find that this article does not address ADD at all or even mention it nor, it seems, is there much discussion about the medications prescribed for adults with ADHD and ADD. My psychiatrist told me that stimulants are ->NOT<- the drug of choice for adults. I have ADD which is the form that occurs most often in women and girls. I took Cyclert for many years until it was taken off the market; now I take Strattera. I also couldn't find any information on the number of men/boys with the disease versus the numbers of women/girls who have it.

Could someone please add this information?

Thank you.

It doesn't mention ADD because technically there is no such thing. What you are talking about is ADHD predominantly inattentive type, which is mentioned quite clearly in the article. Also, there are currently only two medications with FDA approval for treatment of adult AD/HD. Adderall XR, the most commonly prescribed, is definitely a psychostimulant. Strattera, though technically a norepinephrine reuptake inhibator, can have some very stimulating effects. Just a wild guess, but Ritalin/Concerta, the psychostimulant of choice for hyperactivity in kids, is not prescribed as much in adults because it would be an off-label use.--Mrdarcey 19:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

As is his wont, Mrdarcey is indeed wild guessing again. The above statements re: Adderall XR, Strattera, and Ritalin/Concerta are patently incorrect.

The reason stimulants are not, as a general rule, not prescribed for adults is because the paradoxical effect that makes them work for kids in the first place ceases to be present post-puberty. --DashaKat 19:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The (non-signed) user brings up a good point though: the term ADD is not mentioned prominently on the page. It should be made clear (like in the opening paragraph) that while the term ADD is still used in popular culture, it is an outdated medical term and refers to what is now called the predominantly inattentive type. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 19:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. --DashaKat 00:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't help but point out that DashaKat seems to be speculating as much as Mrdarcey. I say this from my own experience, being a 24 year old taking Adderall (the non-RX one). I've never heard anything from my doctors about the medication needing to be switched due to puberty, and I've never had a problem with the medication in the 10+ years since puberty hit myself. -- Ned Scott 03:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ned Scott about the dual speculation. There are several stimulants on the market and approved by the FDA, and stimulants work well for adults also. --scuro 15:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't tend to get into the Talk page skirmishes, but as a clinician who has actually been practicing longer than NedScott has been on the planet, I'd say my "speculation" has a fair amount of grounding in both the field and the literature. Re-read the original post..."drug of choice". My post should more properly have read, "...generally ceases to present post-puberty". Excuse the sweeping generalization. --DashaKat 18:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I don't want to get into any skirmish, either, but what about that is incorrect, other than what I stated was a guess? The FDA states here that only Adderall XR, a stimulant, and Strattera, a non-stimulant, have FDA approval for adult treatment of AD/HD. Has that changed in the past two years? The article also talks about the similar side effect profile of Strattera to stimulants, like increased heart rate, insomnia and lack of appetite/weight loss. Furthermore CHADD states here that "Psychostimulants continue to be first line medications for the treatment of AD/HD in adults as well as children and adolescents." It gives this cite: American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. (2002). Practice parameter for the use of stimulant medications in the treatment of children, adolescents, and adults. Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 41(Suppl. 2), 26-49. The article also refers to Cylert as a psychostimulant and talks about the possibility of an expanded role for Strattera in the AD/HD pharmacoepia. The CHADD article is 5 years old, and things might well have changed since then, but I'm not sure how that invalidates what I said.

I've a great deal of respect for what you've written and contributed here. Your reasoning above sounds good to me, and if you can show me where I'm wrong I'll more than happily retract any incorrect statement. But my wont for wildly guessing? At least I'm trying to source my statements.--Mrdarcey 00:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

There is such a thing as adult ADHD and the diagnosis of that disorder happens every day. For many ADHD doesn't disappear it merely changes form. Often. with time, the hyperactivity becomes far less apparent for those who are hyperactive. I'd further speculate that the most impairing time for ADHD is in childhood but that doesn't mean that the impairment goes away when one turns 18. Furthermore, adult ADHD is also treated with more then two drugs. http://www.ncpamd.com/NewADD_Meds.htm That FDA article doesn't spell out that only two drugs are used for adults. It's a muddled article anyways. Think about it, what would happen to a child taking Ritalin when they turn 18? Do they simply say take Adderall or nothing? I don't think so. --scuro 03:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not being clear. The FDA has officially approved two drugs specifically for use in adult ADHD: Strattera and Adderall XR. That does not mean doctors can, do or should not prescribe others off label, for whatever reason, such as Ritalin/Concerta, Adderall IR, Wellbutrin, Provigil, et al. I use Wellbutrin myself for my ADHD symptoms as psychostimulants are too activating. Check out the first sentence of CrazyMeds' entry for stimulants.--Mrdarcey 17:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a possibility that if true, I was not aware of. Thanks for sharing.--scuro 04:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Happens for a whole raft of drugs, particularly in the MI pharmacoepia. Anti-depressants are prescribed for anxiety disorders, anticonvulsants as mood stabilisers, though many have dual approval. Wellbutrin is officially an anti-depressant, but is used off label for both AD/HD and bipolarity. Lamictal is officially approved for BPI, but is often used for BPII. And of course one can always rebrand, a la Zyban. Check out the CHADD article again. It talks about none of the stimulants having approval for adult AD/HD, and all being used off label. That was in 2002. Adderall XR gained official approval in 2004. It is possible something else has been officially approved since then, and I am unaware of it.--Mrdarcey 17:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge

I propose that we merge ADHD predominantly inattentive to this article. Not officially recognized in the DSM-IV, only has two references, and is really just one paragraph with a symptom list. -- Ned Scott 05:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - It is officially recognized by the DSM-IV and the WHO, page has more then enough information to justify its own page. And the ADHD page is already long enough, there should be a short paragraph about ADHD predominantly inattentive with a link to the page like there is for Treatment and Controversy.Chris H 16:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose with suggestion It is a recognized diagnosis. There can be some mention on this page with a link to that article. JohnsonRon 19:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose --DashaKat 19:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment My apologies, the article said otherwise regarding it being recognized by the DSM-IV. Regardless of that, from an organizational standpoint it seems odd to have that information on a second page. Then again, it probably would make more sense to over look the entire ADHD article series (since that is indeed what we have now) and see how we've structured it. -- Ned Scott 02:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not. In response to the discussion in "ADD", I revised the article to include the information and the redirect in the first paragraph 2 days ago. Blessings. --DashaKat 12:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• agree ADHD-PI should clearly be described in the main article. This group is distinctive and not what most people associate with ADHD. Why shunt this info to a secondary page? If we have many paragraphs in a ADHD-PI sub-section then you could make the case to create a secondary article. That is not the case currently and since ADHD-PI article is so short they should be merged.--scuro 15:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Only if all the sub-categories of ADHD are oncluded in said subsection. --DashaKat 17:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I could go along with that JohnsonRon 19:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not...that sounds like a good idea. Wouldn't a reader also want to know the difference between a combo and plain hyperactive also?--scuro 02:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Theory - ADHD is a symptom of evolution towards higher IQ

Since ADHD is highly correlated with high IQ, is it not possible that the disorder is caused by high IQ? If the energy (dopamine) consuming part of the brain were to grow to a greater capacity, and thereby require more energy to fully function than that of normal brains, would it not have symptoms such as ADHD due to its lack of a similarly enhanced energy supply or fuel system?

I have ADHD and an IQ of about 180. I often feel as if my mind can only operate fully in bursts of energy, followed by long periods of sputtering dysphoria and reduced function. It is as if my brain is a high-horsepower 8 cylinder engine that has been fitted with a fuel pump that is designed for a small 4 cylinder car. If I 'save up' mental energy, I can then use it in a burst on an important task. I cannot control this process consciously, but it seems to happen over and over.

In this way, I have come to imagine that the symptoms of ADHD are simply an advanced power-saving algorithm that my brain uses to enable it to focus on what it thinks is important. It also causes all the subsequent problems with all the other mental tasks that it thinks are unimportant.

This would also explain why adding dopamine to an ADHD brain usually fixes the problem.

Therefore, I believe that ADHD is possibly an indication of the next evolutionary stage in human brain computational capacity. This advancement has occurred without a simultaneous advancement in the supporting/fueling systems within the brain that permit this higher capacity to be fully used. The disorder is possibly an indication of a mutation in process that has created an unbalanced state within the brains of these mutants, but is actually an evolutionary advancement.

208.127.79.59 10:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting theory, and, although it is true that Da Vinci was likely THE poster child for ADD/ADHD, it is as unlikely as that one could find anything in the literature substantiating this theory.

Further, an investigation of alternative eduction schools would probably lend substantial balance, if not a demonstrable refutation, to the notion that being intelligent "causes" ADHD The cognitively challenged are just as likely to be ADHD. --DashaKat 12:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[r.e.: Original post: Anecdotal, and somewhat interesting that you feel the need to tell us your IQ. Surely either your logic or knowledge are somewhat lacking here. ADHD does not allow you to perform better in our current environment, in fact studies show that it inhibits your levels of success in many areas of life (I'm not being "nasty" - I have ADHD too.) Thus there is no evolutionary advantage in promotion of this variant genetic material, as no pressure is operating to allow it to prove beneficial. The mere fact you cannot control your mental "energy" suggests that if anything you will be inherently limited at forward planning, an ability which does constitute an evolutionary advantage in almost every conceivable human environment either now or in the past. If anything surely it is a mutation that is likely to decline? (Though there are other factors that could be brought in to play.)]

ADD on the disambiguation page should redirect to ADHD predominantly inattentive

Most people don't know that ADD is a form of ADHD, so they might get confused when they get redirected to a page that is generally about ADHD. I think "ADD" on the disambiguation page should redirect to the ADHD predominantly inattentive article, so that people realize more quickly that it is in fact a specific form of ADHD. Who agrees? --82.31.161.14 18:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Causes of of ADHD and nutrition

While recent studies have shown that nutrition plays a role in the reduction of some ADHD symptoms and studies show that genetics does not account for the entire ADHD population, no reliable source states that the fast majority of ADHD is caused by nutritional factors. In fact several good secondary sources state that poor nutrition does not cause ADHD. The nutrition paragraph in this subsection has become too large and too reliant on single studies and not secondary sources. Furthermore, while it is interesting that higher or lower levels of certain nutrients effect symptomology no author of these studies draws the conclusion that nutrition is the cause of ADHD. Much of what is written here should be moved to the ADHD treatment article where the information is more relevant.--scuro 13:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio

Repeating the entire DSM criteria is a copyvio; it needs to be summarized and paraphrased. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

Is it possible?

I've worked with a disproportionate number of children dianosed with ADD and ADHD. I've read and re-read all of the commentary from researchers, scientists, psychologists, teachers and parents. I've seen no research for those circumstances when the brain/central nervous system 'morphs' from a biological miracle into the different appearances of brain activity and structure that represent ADD. While I guess that there are biologically-suspect causes (this is not a new disorder), I keep seeing small references to "television" and the exposure or restriction of time spent with this type of 'child care provider', as either a potential cause or at least a partial preventative, respectively (depending on the article). I've not seen the implicit results of any research into the impact of early electronic game viewing on young, 'untrained' and still-forming neural connectors and the central nervous system mechanism. I'm curious to know how early-childhood, high speed, high color, intense visual exposure impacts brains that have not yet had the methodical 'training' required to recognize and work with basic shapes, colors and simple problem-solving and how this affects a developing brain. These brains (kids)jump directly into the neurological challenge of an intense, high speed, highly stimulating activity, often at significant durations and frequencies as a part of their early development. How does this stimuli affect the structural and functional area of the brain in early development? I have read that there is some affect to developed brains. I've also read that there are several additional stages of structural development of the brain, after early childhood--how is this subsequent nevous system development affected by ongoing exposure to electonic "high energy" visual stimulation? When may I read the results of this research?65.194.243.232 17:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Question

Why is it such an important topic to decide if adhd is a mental/ neurological disorder? I have been diagnosed and couldn't care less about it. Thanks. 134.106.199.50 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.106.199.50 (talk) 17:24, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, conributors here think it is important. I am not sure what your exact question is. In some countires, the importance has to do with the ability to get some kind of insurance coverage for treatment. It also can be important that it has official recognition that it be taken seriously in legal proceedings. People who have a diagnosis that is officially recognized seem to be treated better by the community generally and are likely to have more faith and hope in treatments.DCDuring 10:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DCDuring (talk • contribs)

Many people growing up with undiagnosed ADD are accustomed to having moralistic explainations acribed to their behavior-- that is "you're lazy", "you refuse to behave", "you don't think about the consquences of your actions". The idea that there's a nuerology at work frees them from the feelings of guilt they've been trained to expirence, gives them a different way of looking at themselves and lets them make a change positive in themselves. Whether ADD is, in fact, nuerological or not, that's why there's a lot of strong feelings about it. Stevecudmore 16:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

TV and ADHD

--Ss06470 01:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Fascinating that there is an August question about TV and ADHD and an article by Australian researchers directed at this very question which appeared in Pediatrics which I added here last week and it has already been deleted. Does Childhood Television Viewing Lead to Attention Problems in Adolescence? Results From a Prospective Longitudinal Study PEDIATRICS Vol. 120 No. 3 September 2007, pp. 532-537 (doi:10.1542/peds.2007-0978)

Good work ADHD police. Your diligence is an inspiration. How you get away with it is an amazing story but then so are the mailings I get every week (about 4 or 5)advocating for the vast number of patients I am seeing who must be put on amphetamines or Ritalin to treat their biological condition. I get more ads for this cause then the coupons my wife receives from detergent manufacturers Layman are beginning to be suspicions of Childhood Bipolar Disorder which has seen a 40 fold increase in diagnosis over the last 10 years. Could it be that our "experts" are salesmen for drug companies. They certainly are paid a fortune to make their point. But then I've said all this before including my references to Marcia Angell's editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine Is Academic Medicine for Sale. There are literally billions of dollars involved for drug companies in keeping ADHD biological. When are the people who run Wikepedia going to wake up and guard sites such as this from those who police this site and keep disagreeing facts from reaching the eyes of readers. Who are you Scuro?

Nice frame-up job there Doc.

With regards to TV and ADHD, these studies are correlational studies which means while you can see a relationship between the two variables studied, it doesn't necessarily mean that the two variables are linked. For instance there is a very strong correlational link between the number of churches in a square mile and the number of bars in a square mile. Does this mean that god makes you drink? If you speak the language of science and reliable citations we can communicate on this page. Otherwise you're preaching or spewing propoganda, Wikipedia is not the place for this. Start a blog or go to anyone of the prodigious antipsychiatry/scientology websites and I'm sure your contributions will be appreciated there.--scuro 02:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

How convenient it is to place all critics together with scientologists

Scuro. I tried last time to reason with the likes of your kind 6 months ago and it was a complete waste of my time, so this will be it. I consider Scientology nonsense and regularly prescribe meds when they are warranted. I also use stimulants for ADHD as a practical measure. They do work for reasons I try to elaborate in my article.ADHD and Other Sins of Our Children Many other medications have profoundly influenced psychiatric practice and been helpful. I defended Prozac and Lilly against wild accusation in the British Medical Journal [2] Moreover, I have little doubt that the recent increase in adolescent suicides is related to a decreased use of antidepressants as a result of the media hysteria .

However, there is no question that drug companies promote their drugs in unethical ways and unfortunately many "experts" are essentially hired guns for their point of view. I say this with profound regret and don't doubt that many of them consider themselves innocent and unprejudiced by the huge amounts of money paid to them. I keep mentioning Marcia Angell former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine who wrote her editorial "Is Academic Medicine for Sale" and then went on to write a book about this subject The Truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do about It The editor of the Lancet was even more scathing in comments he made in the New York Review of Books.Horton, R. (2004) The Dawn of McScience. New York Review of Book 51, Vol4..Mental Health Another editor of the NEJM wrote an article in the JAMA with a similar assessment. The fact is 18 billion dollars have been spent on promoting drugs. It is completely out of hand. I invite you to read my article on ADHD before you so easily dismiss me. There are certainly positions that I take that may turn out to be wrong, but they are honest speculations. The consistent efforts here to exclude nonbiological points of view is not honest and should be labelled as such. I don't know if you work for a drug company or are one of the many people who have been convinced that their own problems are "not their fault" because they were born with ADHD, or whatever your motivation, but I once again invite you to reveal who you are. This site with its annonymous posting and claims to scholarly objectivity is absurd.

One last quote from my article

"It Was Like A Whitewash"'

Enter Dr. William Pelham, director of the Center for Children and Families at State University of New York at Buffalo (SUNY). A leading ADHD researcher for 30 years, Pelham is a former member of the scientific advisory board for McNeil Pharmaceuticals, which produces Tylenol and markets Concerta, a popular stimulant medication trademarked by Alza Corp. of Mountain View, Calif. Over his career, Pelham has penned over 250 research papers on ADHD, many with industry grants. In 2002, he was given a lifetime achievement award by the world's largest ADHD patient advocacy group, Children and Adults with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD). In interviews with AlterNet, Pelham provided glimpses into the dubious methods drug maker McNeil-Alza uses to ensure that studies it funds produce favorable results for its ADHD medications. Between 1997 and 1999, he was paid by McNeil to conduct one of three studies used to get FDA approval. The company currently uses the three studies to claim that 96 percent of children taking Concerta experience no problems in appetite, growth, or sleep. But Pelham says the studies were flawed. The original intent of the studies was to measure both side effects and main effects of the drug. But two of the three studies, including Pelham's, required that the subjects had to already be taking MPH and responding well to it in order to enter the study. In other words, by stacking the studies with patients already successfully taking stimulants, McNeil ensured the subjects would be unlikely to register side effects, Pelham says.

"It's really misleading and I'm surprised the FDA is letting them use the studies to advertise no side effects," he says. "They had no side effects because they took only people with only a positive history of medication. This is really pushing meds without telling the full picture." There was also pressure from the company to tweak the findings, he says. Part of Pelham's study involved "providing parent training to parents, having a simple behavioral program in place on Saturday lab days, and establishing simple behavioral programs in the children's regular school classrooms." When his paper was in the galley proof stage at the medical journal Pediatrics, Pelham says he joined a conference call with a number of senior people from the corporation who lobbied him to change what he had written in the paper. "The people at Alza clearly pushed me to delete a paragraph in the article where I was saying it was important to do combined treatments (medication and behavioral)," he says, adding that they also pushed him to water down or eliminate other sentences and words that did not dovetail into their interests. "It was intimidating to be one researcher and have all these people pushing me to change the text." McNeil offered no direct response to the allegations.

"We cannot comment on unsubstantiated allegations," says Gary Esterow, a spokesman for McNeil Consumer & Specialty Pharmaceuticals, in a written statement. "The protocols and full study reports for these clinical trials were reviewed by the FDA, and provided the basis for FDA approval. Prior to publication, there was ample opportunity for full discussion of the data among the investigators. Publication of the findings reflect the prevailing opinion of the authors and is further supported by the peer review process of the scientific journals in which these studies appear." Pelham says McNeil didn't stop there. The company commissioned a follow-up study on the conversion study mentioned above. This time McNeil did the data analysis and coordinated the paper writing. "I insisted on seeing the analyses and having major inputs into the manuscript and it was like pulling teeth to get wording and analyses changed," he says. "It was like a whitewash, a praise to Concerta." Pelham says the company submitted the paper twice to the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. Drafts were sent to Pelham several times but he says he never returned anything with his signature. In the end, however, he says the paper was accepted without his knowledge and published with his name on it).

My assumption for the reason Pelham was pressured to remove the paragraqh emphasizing the importance of combined treatments (medication and behavioral) is that this would expose the limitations of pediatricians, who would be required to meet this standard of care. By far, the biggest presecribers of Concerta are pediatricians. Use would go radically down if the pediatricians could not believe that they were giving appropriate care based on reasoning that they were simply fixing the chemical imbalance. --Ss06470 13:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC) Simon Sobo MD

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC) 

I have no financial interest in any ADHD medication or drug company. Really I don't have to post that information but have done so because you appear new. Nor do I have to reveal who I am. You don't seem to have a firm grasp on the conventions of Wikipedia. On Wikipedia credible citable information is the gold standard, not reputation or articles published etc. Everything I post is based on citable information.

Dr. what you post is very much off topic on the ADHD talk page. Read the blurb at the top of the talk page for further information. Anything posted on this page should be for the betterment of the ADHD article. This is not the place to question someones credentials. I believe the talk page you should be posting on is "controversies of ADHD" or "disease mongering" talk pages. The information you posted here is off topic and consequently has the appearance of spam or propaganda.--scuro 15:53, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Genetics and ADHD

Was going through older posts and a question went unanswered from Scuro about challenges to the genetic basis of ADHD. Here are two:

THE MISSING GENE Psychiatry, Heredity, and the Fruitless Search for Genes Jay Joseph, Psy.D. Algora Publishing, January, 2006

Joseph Glenmullen, M.D., from Harvard Medical School had this to say "no claim of a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation". This is from Glenmullin, Joseph (2000). Prozac Backlash. New York: Simon & Schuster, 192-198.

I perfectly understand there are conventions and rules here including that this page is not a soapbox, but it would not be necessary to debate these issues here if the page were not a police state. I invite you and other readers to compare the statement under the PET scan on the ADHD controversy page with the one on the ADHD page. Why has that statement been removed here over and over? That very dramatic picture has been used over and over "proving" ADHD is really biological when in fact it proves absolutely nothing. It is what one would expect if the person with ADHD wasn't attending to the assigned task. It is also amazing that

Looking over your arguments Scuro, you seem to have used that scientology, critics are a fringe nut group, once too often. How about attending to science and logic rather, than we all must be crazy. One thing I will acknowledge. The majority of doctors, organizations and "experts" agree that ADHD is biological. The question is whether they are right, why they keep calling themselves "experts" about subjects that we don't have answers for. Take a look at the Frontline interview of the NIMH leading researcher, Dr. Castellanos on ADHD about how much we actually know with scientific validity frontline interview(and he is a true believer in the biological basis of ADHD) The more general question is about the nature of group-think which is not limited to psychiatrists. When I was in training no one dared question Freud. Now almost all conditions are considered biological. I believe part of that is the billions of dollars being spent on keeping people thinking that way. I meant what I said about the number of mailings, seminars, CD, internet e mails, ads in journals. It is absolutely amazing. It would be one thing if there had been some major scientific discovery about ADHD in the last few years, but that is not the case!!! It is simply the amount of money to be made out there. The reason so many editors of reputable journals are writing about this is that they are very upset about it. They are not scientology nuts. At some point even you Scuro have to realize that your repeated generalizations about critics is off the wall. Every once in a while I will check in here to see if you are still using that same perspective. If you are and are continuing to remove contrary posts I will pose the question again. Exactly who are you and why are you doing this?

While Glenmullen worked at Harvard he isn't exactly without bias and would be considered an antipsychiatry figure. He was the one who publicly defended Tom Cruise on TV and who Breggin accused of stealing his antipsychiatry Prozac views. His viewpoints do seem to make it on a lot of antipsychiatry and scientology webpages. Beyond the internet he doesn't loom large. Thats not to say that his ideas couldn't have merit but rather he should be considered as a minority or fringe source. What he states is true though. No claim for a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time. That is because it is widely believed that several genes are involved with all of the mental disorders. If you want to call not allowing bogus information to be posted on the article, a "police state", go ahead. There are many valid criticisms of ADHD some of which are most likely not on the article. If you do want to bash the disorder I'd suggest you find better sources for your information.---scuro 12:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 (talk • contribs) 12:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

But are the criticisms credible and of the majority or even minority viewpoint? If not we have fringe criticisms and they belong in their own separate articles. Fringe viewpoints really have no reason to be on an article except for possibly a brief blurb with a link to a belief based article such as "Ritalin causes brain damage".--scuro 15:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

To scuro

I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. I am not trying to bash ADHD. I believe the description of it applies to many children, I just don't accept it is a biological illness that has inflicted millions and millions of children

You seem to rely an awful lot on ad hominem arguments I have used my search engine and see you are everywhere. I ask again who are you? What is your connection to Dr. Barkely? It is fine if you communicate but I would like to know whether you simply quote him a lot or regularly communicate. You may not be required by the rules here to reveal this, but in ordinary ideas about scholarship it is an absolute requirement so that your credentials can be considered, especially since you delight in attacking others by reference to character rather than the substance of arguments Also a word about Dr. Barkley. He recieves money from McNeil Pharmaceuticals (U.S.) and Janssen-Ortho (Canada) (speaker fees) Shire Pharmaceutical Co. (Consulting/speaker fees) Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Eli Lilly Co. (Speaker/Consulting fees) I don't doubt his claims that the amounts are not a substantial part of his income, but if that is so why doesn't he end these connections?--Ss06470 12:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Simon Sobo can you follow the conventions of WIkipeida?

Listen Dr. S. you are way off topic once again. Let me reiterate, your assumptions about me are wrong and I'm not going to post my real name or further personal information. What you are posting is irrelevant to this talk page or is of a personal nature. Continue with this and you will simply be ignored. --scuro 15:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

length, content and similarities between article and poo

i swear to god this article keeps getting shorter and shorter. is someone removing bits from each section or something? wasnt that treatment section way longer. this article used to be better, im sure i dont like it change it make it better its shit. fuck u all for making it crap. and it says 'comorbid conditions are ODD.' wtf? whos changing this article into a pile of cow faeces?— Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Please refrain from using offensive language. eXtreme Circuitz 01:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This article is non-NPOV

I myself am ADHD (Though taking med) but since before I was even diagnosed up till now (At least seven years) I have been the smartest kid in my school -- not just grade, the entire school -- and if I was given the chance to take the 10^th grade math TAKS test now I would probably ace it, yet I am only in 7^th grade. Consequent of reading this article I am highly offended by the description of the prognosis of ADHD. This article does NOT conform to the NPOV policy and should be revised accordingly. eXtreme Circuitz 01:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't just make generalization based on anecdotes and complain of POV. If you have any verifiable, citable, changes to the contrary, feel free to edit the page then. Voice-of-All 05:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a personal comment for eXtreme Circuitz and for the many young people with ADHD who read this article. The "prognosis" mentioned must be in reference to the Treatment section of the article, which indeed does give some information about prognosis for untreated ADHD (and not a lot is known about how treatment changes this). I'm 63 years old, and, while I was only diagnosed with ADHD in recent years, I clearly had the inattentive form early on. I was also the smartest kid around, I was bumped up one and one-half grades (having been in a private school, transferring to public school), and they would have bumped me more if my father had allowed it. And this is my conclusion: ADHD means, for me, that I can do things that are impossible for "normies." But some things that others can do easily, I can't do, or at least I cannot do them reliably. ADHD has had a major impact on my life sometimes a negative one. Once I was diagnosed, I talked about it with my brother, who is eleven years older than I, and, to my surprise, found that he was one of the first teenagers in the U.S. to be treated with Ritalin, and his hyperactivity was extreme. A summary: we have both done some amazing things, and we have both been unable to *complete* some of these things. My suggestion to anyone with ADHD is to learn as much as possible about it: in a sense, you can be proud of what you *can* do, and your skills can benefit yourself and others, you are important to society. But you will also probably be unable to do certain things, and you will need to know what they are and not beat your head against the wall trying to be what you are not. As an example for me, I lost an important client because I was working on another job, was absorbed in it, and forgot about an appointment until the time had already come. When I called to say I'd be late, I was told not to bother. Obviously, someone who can't remember an appointment must be too flaky! I *wasn't* too flaky, I did my consulting work, on time, and did it well. But I did have trouble, sometimes, getting to appointments on time! Now, knowing that, I'll set alarms so that if I get absorbed in something, I won't forget. Simple. Many of the ways in which we can improve our social function can be as simple as that. I've also had to learn that, surprise, most other people don't think the way I think, and when I don't factor for that in how I communicate with them, I can "drive them crazy," because for starters, I'm a dialectical thinker, I think in opposites. Others will interpret this as oppositional, simply being stubborn, which is an error. As well, I will sometimes fill in the picture of what we are talking about with a kind of shotgun consideration of fragments of the topic, all over the map, so to speak. People who need to think on one track at a time can be thrown way off by this: why did I change the subject? Of course, I didn't change the subject, I was merely considering wider aspects. If I want to be understood, however, I must modify how I communicate. And, then, there are drugs, legal and otherwise. I'm using legal drugs, prescribed by a psychiatrist. One (possibly two) of my children are using illegal drugs, for the same purpose. The illegal drugs bring risks that don't come with the legal ones; in order to get the legal drugs, one will need a diagnosis, which involves, among other things, an admission that there is a problem. If one is in denial about the problem, one may avoid solutions. Drugs are only a small part of the solution, though. --Abd 18:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It's been two months now with no specific objections lodged. I'll remove the POV-section tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eubulides (talk • contribs) 04:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

New results from Multimodal Treatment study?

Someone made a change to the introduction based on a BBC report, giving what seem to be preliminary, non-published results from the Multimodal Treatment study. The change about the results after one year was reasonable, that information was indeed published. The subsequent edit to show the three-year results, showing no long-term benefit, is based solely on the BBC report. That report has been widely echoed in the media as a "proof" that long-term results of ADHD drug use are nil. But I was unable to find any details of the actual new study. It is premature to incorporate such results in the introduction, which should be solid. The anonymous editor was properly reverted by User:Scuro. As to the one-year results, they might indeed be put into the article, with proper reference to the study itself (if it isn't already there, I haven't checked), but that's too much detail for an introduction. When the newer study is published, assuming it is published, after peer-review and facing general criticism within the field, some mention in the introduction might become proper and even important. This is a link to the BBC report: [3] --Abd 18:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I note the BBC report describes this condition as a 'behavioural condition' not a neurological one, and cites cases of children with obvious family and personality issues rather than focusing on 'pure' ADHD. It's interesting that many of those who are promoting non-drug approaches just happen to be those who make money from psychological and/or behavioural treatments that have even less evidence to support them. Of course many people with psychological or behavioural issues will benefit from therapy, but therapy cannot treat the underlying neurological condition. The BBC report neglects to discuss adult ADHD nor does it distinguish between ADHD and ODD. The simple fact is that for many people taking ADHD medication greatly improves their symptoms, of course if it doesn't they shouldn't take it and it's a good idea for people to have trial medication breaks now and then to test this. The diagnosis and treatment of ADHD is far from perfect and it is not clear that all or indeed most of those diagnosed with ADHD actually have the condition. I have ADHD and if I miss my meds, I feel like I can't see or focus properly, forget masses of basic things, feel overwhelmed and out of control rapidly and have no impulse control, and many others feel the same. I don't get violent and have a very high IQ and intellectual ability, but often underperform because of my ADHD symptoms. I'm so angry that the preliminary results of this one study are being blown out of all proportion and so many relevant facts are being overlooked. Another case of hype and scaremongering over science I'm afraid. Someone needs to tidy up the recent changes to this article that this BBC show seems to have inspired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.206.195 (talk) 21:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I am the one who posted the original BBC story. Sorry about the unsigned post. I wasn't using my computer then. Here is my suggestion

BBC is a verifiable source. Hence it cannot be deleted. However, the information should be put in proper context.

it should be mentioned that the result is still premilary

it should be also mentioned that the Multimodal Treatment Study of Children with ADHD is one of the most respected and authoritative study.

Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Note:I have seen some of the comments in online new media about this news. There are quite few negative comments from people who is on medication and who find the treatment helpful

Firstly, I should point out that medical study is about statistics, i.e. numerical assessment of both successes and failures.

Secondly, from what I read, the study seems to imply that behavioural therapy alone in long run work as well as the combined treatment of medication and behavioural therapy, implying that medication only provide temporary and short term fix.

Lastly, personal opinion, including mine, is irrelevant per verifiablity.

Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's about statistics, anecdotes prove little, except that they can point to directions for further research, and they affect how believable research might be. In any case, however, the study has not yet been published in a peer-review journal. The *news* is notable and could be in the article, properly attributed, but it's not yet *science*, i.e., the study results can't be reported yet as fact -- unless someone can find better sourcing. It's clearly, as well, about something controversial, and to treat the study *conclusions* as proven fact is premature. We haven't seen the study yet! What, exactly, were they studying, how significant were the results, what were possible confounding factors, etc. It's a bit dangerous to present fresh research in the article, even if it *is* published in a peer-reviewed journal. --Abd 20:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place to judge fact or science being conclusive or not. That is done by media or academic journal which wikipedia is supposed to report as verifiable and neutral. Vapour (talk)

Text that was removed from introduction by User:NuclearWinner

When removing substantial chunks of text, it's a courtesy to move it to the Talk page. That way, it is easier to find to reincorporate into the article, if needed. I agree that the intro was too long, so I haven't reverted this change, but there are facts here, with sources, that should probably go back into the article. I don't necessarily have time to do it....

Studies show that there is a familial transmission of the disorder which does not occur through adoptive relationships. Twin studies indicate that the disorder is highly heritable and that genetics contribute about three quarters of the total ADHD population. While the majority of ADHD is believed to be genetic in nature, roughly 1/5 of all ADHD cases are thought to be acquired after conception due to brain injury caused by either toxins or physical trauma prenatally or postnatally. According to a majority of medical research in the United States, as well as other countries, ADHD is today generally regarded as a chronic disorder for which there are some effective treatments. Over 200 controlled studies have shown that stimulant medication is an effective way to treat ADHD.

--Abd 01:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You're quite right about mentioning big deletions on the talk page. There was no deletion - I actually did move all that material down into the "Causes" section, and left just a summary version up top. But I should have communicated that, and the lede still needs tightening. NuclearWinner 17:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it still does. (Somehow I overlooked the insertion of the material later.) And User:Scuro reversed the move. These changes should be discussed here. Note that the article has a tag indicating that the introduction needs tightening. This is part of it. I have reverted the change by User:Scuro. Quite possibly, some of this material could be integrated back into the introduction, but the whole introduction should be revamped, see WP:LEAD. --Abd 18:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The terms ADD and ADHD

And editor changed the term ADD in the article to ADHD. While this may be a correct move (I think it is), the editor apparently used a text editor to replace all "ADD" with "ADHD", thus changing the word "additionally" to "ADHDitionally," as an example, and also changing the occurrence of the term "ADD" in a reference, the title of a paper," similarly. Another, more experienced editor reverted it as a quick fix. The reversion should have been explained in the edit summary or here. "Don't bite the newcomers." --Abd 13:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Academics

"A marked decrease in academic skills such as reading, spelling, or math is common with children who have ADHD." - Honestly, this has been the reverse in my experiences with peers and children diagnosed as such. While I can't change it (since this would be considered original research), I would sincerely appreciate a citation proving this effect. In my experiences, people with ADHD (or ADD) have been highly intelligent people with unique abilities. They are highly creative, able to focus very closely and for long periods of time on interesting tasks ("hyperfocus"), and able to remain comfortable in vague and imprecise subject matters, relying on the very same intuition that they attained as a coping mechanism in the non-ADHD world. kevinthenerd (talk) 02:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the effects of ADHD in children and how it impacts their academic skills can very a lot. I myself struggled with reading and writing, but excelled at math. -- Ned Scott 09:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course003.php

It will be in there...black and white, supported by research. There skills, ON AVERAGE, do lag their peers. Roughly a half of ADHDers don't finish high school...although a good chunk of that is because of behaviour. --scuro (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Controversy moved away from the main article.

... since I last looked at the site. That's a well-working lobby for you. -91.23.143.224 (talk) 11:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone screwed up the article

The reference section is ruined. And the introduction seems like it's attacking the idea before even introducing it. Someone clean up.99.225.178.225 (talk) 23:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

contentious new edits need to be discussed in talk before they are made

Recent edits have been challenged because they give undue weight to minority or fringe opinions. Please seek consensus first on this talk page before making edits which other editors disagree with.--scuro (talk) 05:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Especially when such edits disagree with what medical science considers fact. -- Ned Scott 05:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. The existence of 'ADHD' is challenged by qualified doctors and scientists, notably by Dr Fred Baughman, an experienced paediatric neurologist in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' . I have interviewed Dr Baughman about this at length, and think he makes a scientifically and medically coherent case which is ignored by this article in the bowdlerized form to which its self-appointed guiardians have repeatedly returned it. In science, those who wish to advance a theory must prove it through repeatable, peer-reviewed experiment. The supporters of the 'ADHD' theory have never, despite years of trying to do so, produced an objective test for its presence. Those who are diagnosed with it are likewise not diagnosed by an objective test but through a vague and subjective list of symptoms. It may well be true that powerful forces have an interest in promoting the idea that 'ADHD' exists, as do those parents who receive welfare benefits because their children have been 'diagnosed' with it, or the teachers whose formerly chaotic classes are now quiet because so many of their charges are now receiving powerful psychotropic medication whose long-term effects are as yet unknown. Whereas those who doubt it are not so powerful nor wealthy, and have no interest but a desire to search for the truth. I am being extremely fair, in my edits (which I propose to continue indefinitely until this article is fair) in leaving untouched the arguments of those who believe in ADHD, merely inserting language which makes clear that partisan assertions are not facts, and which also makes clear that the existence of this complaint is disputed. The size and extent of dissent against a popular or fashionable idea has no bearing upon its truth, or its right of expression. Scientific truth never has been, and cannot be, established by majority vote (not that I know of any ballot on this subject ever having been held) . If this were so almost no dissenting voice in science ( or any other field) could get a hearing on Wikipedia, and many theories now established as true would have been denied such a hearing at the time their discoverers were seeking to establish them . Their attempts to suppress the fact that this diagnosis has scientifically-and medically qualified critics, and remains unproven, and has no objective measure, are engaging in straightforward censorship and should desist. I have expressed some scepticism elsewhere about Wikipedia's unachievable fetish for a 'Neutral Point of View', but where there is deep division among scientists about the existence of a complaint then it is surely necessary for any article about that complaint to make that division clear from the start. Declaring those you disagree with to be a 'fringe' is simply ad hominem, and illegitimate in serious debate. Most established ideas have been thus dismissed at some stage. The scientific argument goes to the heart of the matter. Where is the objective test for a complaint which is generally treated by the prescription of highly objective, powerful chemicals which act directly upon the most sensitive and least-known organ of the human body, the brain? The contentiousness of 'ADHD' is the most important thing about it. Anyone researching it (especially, say , the parent of a child told by teachers or others that her child suffers from this alleged complaint) should be allowed to learn of this directly from Wikipedia. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

We know you disagree, and we know that trying to explain it to you for the 100th time won't do any good. You've been told about our policies, such as WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V, and others (such as Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer). If you can't work with us on this, and keep inserting the disputed edits, you will likely find your account blocked from editing. -- Ned Scott 21:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Who are "we"? Who appointed "we?" as guardians odf this entry? What right does this "we" have to exclude important truths from a Wikipedia entry, and to insist that partisan, contentious opinions are asserted ( and presented to the uninformed reader) as settled facts? You have a special nerve, advancing 'NPOV' as an argument in this matter . The article as edited by me takes a completely neutral point of view between those who believe in this and those who don't. I have deleted precisely nothing of the pro-ADHD argument, merely modified its assertions so as to make clear that they remain matters of opinion rather than fact, and balanced them with the opinions of those who oppose the theory. Attempts to classify the opinion you dislike as 'fringe' are pure ad hominem, prejudicial, without value and illegitimate in serious argument. How do you know who will eventually win this debate? Many major scientific and medical theories have at some point in their lives been held by a minority, and often a despised minority. Many subsequently discredited positions have been held by a triumphalist majority. As for threatening to have me blocked from editing, please do go ahead and try. I am very happy to take this to the highest available authority in Wikipedia, in order to ensure that the truth is not censored. Threats of this kind are no substitute for argument. What are you trying to explain to me? That you're right and I'm wrong? Are you? Where is your objective proof, your train of logic? You don't know that,cannot prove it by evidence or the rules of debate and have no business insisting that your personal view, however passionately held, should be given primacy over my equally legitimate one. So you reach for the censor's blue pencil, the last resort of those without an argument. The whole point of my edits is to show that the subject is one on which doctors and scientists differ. This is a contentious issue. It is simply wrong to present it as if were settled. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback (talk) 22:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

We refers to those who support the current consensus about this article. You keep inserting a bunch of weasel words, which is unhelpful. There is already an entire article about the controversy surrounding ADHD. It covers the arguments quite well. --Versageek 22:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

These are not Weasel words, which are designed to obscure or mislead. they are the exact opposite. . They transform assertions of fact into what they are, statements of opinion. Anyone researching ADHD needs to have the controversy fully explained on the entry about the alleged complaint. It should not be buried in an annexe. The fact that 'we' support the current consensus gives you, so far as I know, no special rights repeatedly to delete my contributions. A consensus is not, so far as I know, arrived at by the hostile suppression of dissenting views, along with patronising remarks about 'explaining it to me for the 100th time' as if you were the fount of all knowledge and I an ignorant child. You have done nothing here to show that you can defend your position. I think the current consensus results in an article which is highly partisan over an unsettled matter. That is why I made my edits. Can we please take this to whatever disputes process exists?

Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback (talk) 23:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I know that Clockback doesn't need my contribution or support on this matter but it seems to be a consensus thing and I believe this is important and that you are wrong in opposing him. I reverted the last edit because the 'disputed' tag was insufficient - it gave a link to the top of this talk page and you have to trawl through tons of stuff, inluding jokes, to find this issue. A reader probably wouldn't do that. You have proved that Clockback is right, in alerting us to the fact that there is an article stating exactly the opposite of this one. I think he is looking at this article from the point of view of a concerned, and possibly not that PC literate, parent. Logic would tell that parent that this entry would contain all the facts and it doesn't, it does what Clockback says it does - presents opinion as fact. Surely the most sensible thing to do would be to combine the two articles? I looked up ADHD tonight after a discussion with friends and typed in 'ADHD ADD wiki' and the 'controversy' was not listed - I expected all the facts to be in this article and they clearly are not. That's why I reverted and stated my opinion. I think the two articles should be combined. Miamomimi (talk) 00:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Medical science and reliable sources specifically indicate that this is fact, not opinion. If Peter wants the world to reject the idea of ADHD, then he needs to propose those ideas to the medical community, and properly back up those claims. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- Ned Scott 00:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be fair to make note of the controversy earlier in the article than we do now (using appropriate wording) then, either source & reword those "critic's say" sentences that I tried to integrate under the diagnosis header or remove them. --Versageek 01:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Baughman is nothing but a blowhard fringe antipsych critic. Please show me the research that he does done, or any paper of his cited by notable researchers. His website is not fredbaughman.com but rather ADHDFRAUD.com. He has come up with some beauts. Here he explains away all the research done on the most studied childhood disorder that there is:..you have bio-psychiatry "researchers" not really biologists, not really researchers or scientists, apply the tools of biology and medicine to these entirely normal persons (some infants and toddlers) and, in this way you create a "scientific" literature, that becomes the stuff of their "scientific" meetings. He does not belong in this article because he is fringe opinion.

He is totally fringe. Cite other sources beyond Breggin and the other Antipsychs please. ADHD is accepted as a disorder by every health institute in the US and as I know it the whole world. WHERE IS THE CONTROVERSY?...besides in the minds of antipsych critics and religious groups such as Scientology?