Talk:Bogdan Musiał

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External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120718034701/http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/406/262choda.html to http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/406/262choda.html

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Criticism/views spam

A lot has been added with cherry picked sources, I have taken a look at some sources and they are severely misinterpreted. Also the criticism section seems to be now larger than main article although he is uncontroversial historian.It needs to be toned down to due weight.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Not all of the criticism is bad. Some is favorable. Regarding Musiał being an "uncontroversial historian" - do you have a source for that?

Also you reverted content with the quote "The Holocaust is a supplementary religion for Judaism" which appears directly in an English language source [1] (also present was Polish coverage of this - which seemed wide - and which seems to say the same) - how is this a misinterpretation of what Musiał said?Icewhiz (talk) 15:27, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

It is because he says something completely different and in much wider and bigger context about horrific ordeal that Jews and others went through in Holocaust.Basically that reactions are so strong due to terrible atrocity Holocaust was which due to suffering has made commemorating enormous losses and suffering an almost religious experience.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:29, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

@MyMoloboaccount: Musiał doesn't have much coverage in English (He does have wide coverage in German and Polish sources) - this is something that was reported in an English source (and a respected one) in this exact form - I was careful to use attributed quotes for this from a RS that translated this to English in a manner that shouldn't be challenged for accuracy in terms of translation. I believe this statement should be in - however if you feel Musiał's comments on this matter should be expanded (and he's talked a great deal, and he's been analyzed quite a bit - from what I see in the Polish sources) - how about you expand this to reflect his views more comprehensively on the matter? He's definitely quite involved with the IPN amendment (involvement which possibly also should be expanded).Icewhiz (talk) 16:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

I have added a positive reception of his work from Alexander B. Rossino who is a research historian at the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. In general I believe this section should be trimmed to bare essentials as it is now too bloated.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:03, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

We're not even close to this article being long enough to be trimmed. We should perhaps reorganize a bit - e.g. cover each major work and its reception (by others - e.g. move Sowjetische Partisanen 1941-1944 and Konterrevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschießen to a "works" section along with some items from the "career" section), leaving Rossino and Michlic in the criticism (or possibly re-title to reception). Some of the pargraphs (Rudling and Rossino) are perhaps too long and should perhaps be summarized.Icewhiz (talk) 23:29, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

BLP vio?

@Volunteer Marek: - you removed coverage of Musial in WP:RSes covering historiography of the period. Reliably sourced (and attributed) information is not a BLP violation. The author, Joanna Michlic (sole author in one, in second with Malgorzata Melchior[2][3] who is also a scholar in the field), is an expert in historiography and the publishers Leipziger Universitätsverlag and University of Nebraska Press are acceptable and respected academic publishers. Similar text is also available in this journal article (possibly a copy/rewrite of what was in the book - but was published in a peer reviewed journal). Other authors have made similar claims in peer reviewed settings - e.g. Norman Naimark "Bogdan Musial's bloated claims about extensive Jewish participation in Soviet crimes and justifiable Polish resentment against Jewish perpetrators beg the question." Where's the BLP vio here?Icewhiz (talk) 11:55, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

References

• Comment - This is how article looked like before Icewhiz arrived: [4] This is how the article looked like after Icewhiz edits: [5] UNDUE weight, unbalanced, not presented responsibly and conservatively, and it has hair-raising biased tone. Clear BLP breach [6]GizzyCatBella (talk) 11:10, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

  This is Musial's dewiki entry - 38 words to the lede, 341 words for a short life section + spotting the photo error (in 1999) in the Wehrmacht exhibition, and then 1163 words to various negative controversies (clearly titled as such) - or some 75% of the dewiki article. I migrated some of the dewiki article to enwiki - but only did so for sources that were available online and I could vet myself (or could find English language RSes covering the same). BLP articles should reflect what is written about the BLPs in RSes.Icewhiz (talk) 11:47, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

  Is dewiki some kind of guidance to follow?GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:36, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

  It is a well regarded wiki project, with content policies that are more conservative than enwiki. Considering that most of Musial's work was in German - and that coverage of him for that period is mainly German - it is a relevant yardstick.Icewhiz (talk) 12:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

If you don't read German - part of the crtics is about The Neighbours by J.T. Grooss, a not quite academic book. Musiał lists obvious errors.Xx236 (talk) 11:19, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

If you don't read German, don't believe editor's biased opinion various negative controversies, some are positive. Xx236 (talk) 11:25, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

an ethno-nationalist school of thought

Academic schools are created by people sharing similar background, generation, views.

• Tomasz Strzembosz was a Home Army historian born in 1930, died in 2004. He was oppressed during the war (Underground education) and by the Communists till 1989.
• Marek Jan Chodakiewicz is one generation younger, an NSZ historian (HA nad NSZ don't like each other), Polish-American. He studied and obtained his PhD in the USA.
• Bogdan Musiał is a German historian - he finished a high-school (as a worker), studied and obtained academic title in Germany. He has published all his books in Germany. Xx236 (talk) 11:44, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

BLP vio again

We've had Icewhiz try to turn this article into an BLP violating attack page. Let's avoid doing that again. This opinion is UNDUE and a BLP VIO. Volunteer Marek 20:46, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

It looks like legitimate characterization. Why do you consider it a BLP vio? François Robere (talk) 21:12, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

You've never edited this page before. Please stop WP:STALKing my edits. Volunteer Marek 21:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)