Talk:Call of Duty 2

Game Engine Debate

• First of all, I don't think there's any point to debate against the facts, but it looks like we'll going towards this route anyways, so let me start by making this a more formal discusssion process. I'll start digesting the long paragraph and list out the points and counter-points, and I'm hoping this could be a more constructive way to resolve this. I'm trying to fix down the format, if any of you are interested you are welcome to modify as it goes. We'lll use 2 types of supports, one is the evidence which is referring to a fact, and we'll also using logical argument as well, we'll call this arguement for the time being.

Claim: COD2 is a Quake 3 engine game

Evidence 1: COD2 uses very similar file structures as Quake 3.

Counter: WinRAR can unzip .zip files, that doesn't make WinRAR owned by WinZip. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Evidence 2: COD2 uses the same editor for making the maps as Quake 3.

Counter: OGRE reads Quake 3 BSP maps, it's not based off Quake 3 engine. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Counter: IW's Radiant is NOT even compatible with any other Radiant out there.IWslothy 03:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Evidence 3: Answers.com says it's based on a heavily modified Quake 3 engine.

Counter: That is because Answer.com uses the information from Wikipedia, which is false to began with. Kenimaru 23:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Arguement 1: Xbox 360 version is proprietary, PC version is Quake 3.

Counter: There's no advantage of maintaing 2 code bases, and there is no evidence that they are as some claimed. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Counter: Do you have any factual evidence that the engine is totally different for the two platforms? Why are people making wild claims on an Encylopedia page?03:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Argument 2: Quake 3 is GPL, if IW admit that they use Quake 3, the COD2 engine has to be GPL as well.

Counter: Completely false, you can still license Quake 3 engine with $10,000 to avoid GPL. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Arguemtn 3: IW can't license the COD2 engine because it's a Quake 3 engine.

Counter: Just because IW chose not to, doesn't mean that they can't, and there is no evidence of the above claim. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Claim: COD2 uses proprietary engine

Evidence 1: IW employees stated that COD2 engine is their own engine. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Evidence 2: The reference (FireSquad) used actually says it's not using Quake 3 engien. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Arguement 1: Calling COD2 engine a heavily modified Quake 3 engine is like calling Valve's Source engine a heavily modified Quake engine. Kenimaru 23:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, I read the ref and acknowledge my mistake. The article is currently in the correct state, and I won't be changing it again. The last thing a GAC needs is edit warring, so it's good to agree on things. Thanks for the clarification. Giggy _U^CP 23:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Look on the official game box, it clearly states a reference to Id software in the smallprint. 210.5.36.1 23:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

CoD2 does INFACT use a modified QUAKE3 engine. Fact:

CoD2 can and does respond to the following server admin program.

"Crow Kings Autokick"

This program was writen "specificly" for the quake3 engine based games, more specificly Medal of Honor Allied Assult. This very same program ( quake3 based ) will and does infact control CoD2 servers and can also manage said servers. The CoD2 servers does also infact respond to quake3 specific command sets. How can anyone say its NOT quake3 based when the facts are there to prove and say it does and is quake3 based ( modified ). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.255.171.67 (talk) 17:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, this is so completely insane my head is going to explode. This site is supposed to operate only on facts, yet this is full of non-technical people who do not have access to the source code arguing about wild conjecture of what is in the source code. I _DO_ have access to the facts and I've posted that it is a proprietary engine. All of the arguments to the contrary are not rooted in any sort of engineering knowledge and don't hold water. WTF is going on? Let me state for the record that CoD2's engine is a proprietary in-house engine. I work for IW. Can this stupid thing please end so I don't have to keep correcting false information on this page?IWslothy 03:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If that is true IWSlothy, explain this paragraph from the server manual.

" Usage is very similar to Call of Duty™ and United Offensive™... many of the console commands, command lines, and cvars are identical, so if you are comfortable maintaining dedicated servers for those games, you will find this process familiar. There are a LOT of knobs you can tweak to customize and automate your server, but it is beyond the scope of this documentation. Please refer to the admin manuals for any Quake 3™ based Multiplayer game (including Quake 3 Arena™, Return to Castle Wolfenstein™, the original Call of Duty™ and United Offensive™, etc) for specifics."

Why would it refer to the manuals of other Quake3 games if it is NOT based off of the Quake3 engine? amstacey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.26.181 (talk) 22:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It says it's similar to Quake3 games to make it easier for those who haven't used this engine before (which should be everyone, since it's a unique in house job) to get the feel of how it works. You're contradicting yourself! May I also point out a quote from this source (emphasis mine):

“ The venerable Quake III engine has been retired in favor of an in-house custom job, featuring pixel shaders, bump maps and much-improved shadows and lighting. ”

 — Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 00:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This is getting out of hand. I have protected the page until a compromise is made. bibliomaniac15 23:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

A compromise had been reached. The original edit, way back in time, said Quake3 engine. Finally, it was sort of agreed that Heavily modified Quake3 engine held the best description. I still believe that to be correct. It is NOT a new engine. If it were, they would not tell server admins to use the manuals from other Quake3 games. You do not need to be some sort of programming expert to know that. You also have had a number of technical experts also call it a Quake3 engine. Such as Bullet Worm, who created the "IW Sum mismatch" fix that IW said couldn't be done. Also, Garetjax, creator of CoDTV and other programes. One of the other contributers to this discussion, is Wizard220, creator of the Extreme mod for AWE, so please don't say there is no techincal expertise here. - amstacey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.26.181 (talk) 10:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

How can you claim that there is a compromise? You're simply trying to steamroll your viewpoint through, and that's just crap. My position is still that if you want Wikipedia to claim that this is heavily modified Quake 3, then we need consistency and we should change the Source Engine page to say heavily modified Quake 1. It's simply a question of whether we want to favor historical trivia over everything else. The engine IS prietary, it IS in-house, and people here haven't listed any technology in it that is a holdover from Quake 3. All we have are crazy "well this app works with it so it MUST be quake 3!" statements.IWslothy 12:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and Amstacey, I'm saying YOU have no technical expertise, not other people. YOU thought Direct3D was a renderer, that only Quake 3 could read zip files, that our Radiant was the same as other Radiants, that we used the MD4 model format, that our d3dbsp format is the same as Quake 3 bsp files, that we use different engines on 360 and PC, and other wild totally false claims that I've grown really tired of correcting over and over. You obviously aren't familiar with the details of the CoD2 engine at all. And now we're in this silly state where you agree that the "360 engine" is proprietary but the PC one isn't? It's the same engine.IWslothy 12:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you need to go back see who said what. Most of the items there are not attributable to me, but that is besides the point. You are the one that is arrogant enough to say that your interpretation of the word proprietry is more correct than that of the dictionary. Anyone who cannot accept a dictionary explanation must have their whole argument looked at with suspicion. I have pasted a copy of instructions straight from your own server guide, telling people to use the Quake3 server guide in order to make tweakes etc in CoD2. ALL the bugs from CoD1 were in CoD2. There are just too many similarities for it to be called a new engine "built from the ground up" as quoted by Eric Riley. Remember, technology has moved on since Quake3 was first bought out, and what could be acheived by that engine on the processors of the day, has no doubt been expanded upon, simply because of the additional processing power that is now available. Just because greater processing power enables you to do much more with the engine, doesn't make it a new engine

With respect to the compromise, I had been insisting on calling it a Quake3 engine. Someone else used the compromise term of heavily modified Quake3 engine. I accepted that, so I moved my position. You, however, seem intent on calling it an engine developed by Infinity Ward, as though it is a totally new engine and it is not! It is heavily based off the Quake3 engine, into which you have integrated DirectX capabilities and I accept IW made a good job of doing that.

I will agree, I am not a programmer and I personally would not be able to tell the difference by looking at the code, but I do understand English and I can read and understand what other "experianced" programmers have to say on the subject. Only one that I know of, took the stance that it was a new engine and even he agree's that Eric Riley's statement was wrong and that CoD2 is heavily based off of the Quake3 engine. Only IW claim it to be totally new and they have a vested interest in doing so. Then again, some of IW's own employee's (IWAvatar) have now explained that Eric Riley's statement was wrong. (amstacey) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.26.181 (talk) 22:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, who are these "experienced" programmers you are referring to? bibliomaniac15 02:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so you say it's based heavily on Quake 3, which is something I can verify or disprove if I know what parts you're talking about. Could you list specifics of what parts of the engine are Quake 3? If you have experienced programmers who have quotes about this, could you cite them? I'd definitely like to see what they have to say. IWslothy 04:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I have already named several people above;- "Such as Bullet Worm, who created the "IW Sum mismatch" fix that IW said couldn't be done. Also, Garetjax, creator of CoDTV and other programes. One of the other contributers to this discussion, is Wizard220, creator of the Extreme mod for AWE, so please don't say there is no techincal expertise here" There are many posts by these people at www.iwnation.com. Search for COD2 engine, you will even find a quote by your own IWAvatar agreeing that IW never intended to give the impression it was brand new, built from the ground up, more like they rebuilt the quake3 engine. (amstacey) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.26.181 (talk) 10:01, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you be specific in what you think "based heavily on Quake 3" means? You are throwing that line out there without backing it up with any examples. What is your evidence that it's based heavily on Quake 3? Something that someone else could verify themselves. Could you show me where Bullet Worm is backing up your statement? Same for Garet Jax - I actually helped him with CoDTV back on CoD1 by working on the C# app and made our engine work with it by adding new features to the engine. Could you cite the wizard20 bit? I've been madly trying to google all of these things you're talking about and coming up empty. I'd be interested in seeing what he has to say. I think you're mischaracterizing IWAvatar's post - and it appears that you agree that we rebuilt the engine?IWslothy 15:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that the Quake3 engine has been rebuilt, thats why so much of stock Quake3 commands work. The whole point of this, is that it is NOT a brand new engine and it would seem that you are also now saying that the QUAKE3 engine has been rebuilt. So it IS a heavily modified Quake3 engine, NOT a new engine totally developed by Infinity Ward, which is why you still carry the ID logo and why it is NOT a proprietry engine as defined by the dictionary. You tell people to read other Quake3 manuals to learn the commands available. All the original CoD1 bugs were in the CoD2 game at launch and you are trying to say that this is a new engine not based on Quake3? As for finding the various quotes, man that'd be a long job. Just read some of the threads about it at IWNation.com or raidersmerciless.com, fpsadmin.com and many many other CoD related sites. Very few people that have modded the game agree that it's new, if any - (amstacey)

Out of curiosity, would you call the Source engine a "heavily modified Quake engine"? bibliomaniac15 04:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• Just as a heads up, previous debates about this can be found in the talk archives, here and here. Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 03:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I've not followed the Source game or engine, so would not call myself knowledgable on that matter. I do know that Half Life has rag doll physics, something missing from Quake based games. How much more is different, I don't know. (amstacey) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.26.181 (talk) 10:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ragdoll is a pretty arbitrary measure of a new engine though. You can actually license Havok or some other physics system that comes with a ragdoll system to add it to any engine (even stock Quake 3). In the case of CoD4 we wrote our own ragdoll system. Does that mean CoD4 is an in-house proprietary engine but CoD2 is not? In the end, FPS engines are a collection of systems (animation, rendering, collision, networking, gameplay mechanics, etc.). Nobody has been able to come up with a system that is in CoD2 that is from Quake 3. Calling it Quake 3 is neither helpful nor correct. I will reiterate that it's DEFINITELY in-house, it's DEFINITELY proprietary. IWslothy 07:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I refer back to the paragraph starting with, "I'm not disputing that the Quake3 engine has been rebuilt." Also, your very own comment, "and it appears that you agree that we rebuilt the engine?" which in itself is an admission that the quake engine has been re-built. It is therefore not a brand new engine designed entirely by Infinityward. Now if someone from ID was to say that IW had so completely changed the engine that it was no longer a derivitive of the Quake engine and IW no longer needed to carry the ID notice (in respect of CoD2), I may THEN be persuaded to change my mind. But, if my memory servers me right, ID actually stated something along the lines of, "they (IW) call it their own CoD2 engine, but when you look inside it, you will find lots of the Quake3 code," intimating that that it is not truely a new engine(amstacey) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.26.181 (talk) 02:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that's a pretty strong quote you're claiming. Can you cite that so we can see it? With regards to the rebuilt thing, maybe your definition of rebuilt is different from mine? In my mind, pointing out that we rebuilt the engine seems to make it obvious that the engine is proprietary and in-house. I'm not sure where the "new engine" thing is coming in, that was never the argument. Wikipedia isn't claiming it's an old engine, it's claiming it's a modified quake 3 engine. In fact, just like the Source engine, it's a proprietary in-house engine. I guess my main question is: how come Source isn't called Modified Quake 1, how come Quake 3 isn't called modified Quake 2? This system seems completely flawed and inconsistent. IWslothy 07:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

First, apologies for the previous revert with no comment. I had made one, but obviously forgot to save it.

Pretty strong quote you say, well, here is the link http://www.quakeunity.com/article=3 It's in paragraph 3 just below the Doom picture. For those too lazy to follow the link, lol, here is the salient part, in full. Reporting on comments made by Marty Stratton, id's director of business development. You will note that the writer, Roger LaMarca, had also been "sucked in" by the claims of a "new engine."

"He (Marty Stratton) was very courteous, offering us drinks in the id kitchen and even gave me a t-shirt and CoD2, after I (Roger LaMarca) told him I wasn't going to buy the game since it didn't use an id engine. After I said that, he explained to me that even though Infinity Ward promoted CoD2 as using a new engine, much of code in in the game was from previous engines made by id. If you look closely at the bottom of CoD2 box, you will see a id Software copyright notice." (sic)

If you rebuild a car engine, it becomes reconditioned, not new and not proprietry. Metorphorically speaking, you may have changed the carburetter for a fuel injection system, but it's still running on Petrol (Gas).

With respect to Quake and Source, are they not both owned by ID? If a product owner makes cosmetic changes to their product and re-names it, this is re-branding, but you can only re-brand your own product. Hence there is logic to the fact that they can re-name their own product

Now, if that ID quoted comment isn't enough with everything else that has been said, I give up. I really cannot see how an engine can be called proprietry when the copywrite notice on the box belongs to the originator of the engine. (amstacey) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.26.181 (talk) 22:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Ha! found my password (Amstacey 22:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Does the lack of response indicate that this matter is finally put to rest? (Amstacey 11:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

Nope, I was on vacation for a week. So are you BACK to trying to argue that since it has a notice saying that it contains copyrighted code mean that it's not proprietary? This rehashing of old wrong arguments is tiresome. As I said before (I think 3 times now?) it also has copyright notices from Bink, Groupvoice, etc. Other proprietary engines also have copyright notices for Havok, Bink, etc. So that line of reasoning is wrong and old and already settled.IWslothy 19:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

So I've been really good about answering every question you have asked, and you haven't done me the same courtesy - carefully dodging any questions you don't have an answer for. My question remains (you can even find it above): Could you list specifics of what parts of the engine are Quake 3? Please do this before changing it back. Also, please explain why the Source engine IS NOT heavily modified Quake 1. Also, explain why Quake 3 is not heavily modified Quake 2. These are important technical discussions, so let's keep it technical, not secondhand internet quotes.IWslothy 19:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hope you had a nice holiday, I can't say you guys don't deserve one.

As you know, I am not a coder, I can't personally show you any differences in code, but tell me this, could IW SELL the engine for use by other gaming companies without seeking permission from ID?

As for the source engine, I have already answered that - it's called re-branding of one's own proprietary software.

As for avoiding questions and comments, you have neatly side stepped the ID comment and while that is there, I think it is you that shouldn't change the software comment up and until there is a verifiable statement from ID stating that this is indeed IW's own engine and that the quoted comment is wrong.

Now it is time for the moderators here to draw a conclusion, one that I will respect, whatever their decision and I feel you should do the same. (Amstacey 23:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Ref 1 is broken....

{{editprotected}} The current version (not endorsing the wrong version of anything) uses a non existant template - Template:Cite game box. Could we at least display the article with a version that has the correct template, such as this one? Thanks, — Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 00:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

 Done bibliomaniac15 00:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I would make the point that the firingsquad link is only re-iterating what they have been told by IW. It is not an independant comment insofar as they don't say that they have ripped the code apart and compared it to Quake3. If anything, the link should either refer to my link above or to this discussion, and readers can make up their own minds. (Amstacey 12:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC))

Oh dear, I mean, we couldn't trust what IW told us since they made the game. Detect my sarcasm? Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 09:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Given everything else that has been said here, unfortunately, it would appear not (IMHO) :) {Amstacey 13:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)}