Talk:Edward Snowden

CIA's Ex-No. 2 Says ISIS ‘Learned From Snowden’

• Ex-No. 2 Says ISIS ‘Learned From Snowden’ • Arch♦Reader 04:31, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

This page doesn't exist according to google. The FISA court had to be restrained after we learned ( via Federal Courts) that they had wandered from the law. Right now on TV an idiot from NC is arguing " aw what's the problem". If Snowden hadn't blown the whistle on this criminals(FISA court) we would be well on the way to a dictator - maybe he only slowed it down.

Question- NSA uses a list of words ( bomb, Al*****,etc) to search all messages for - so they say. This same idiot says they only collect time, duration, and location of calls. Then what good is the word list. It appears he is lying or doesn't know what he is talking about. By the way after they search the content, what do they do with the content. Maybe they erase it, but logically they collected the content at least for a moment. 73.149.116.253 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

IP 73.149.116.253, the link in ArchReader's comment seems to have been improperly formatted. Please try this: CIA's Ex-No. 2 Says ISIS 'Learned From Snowden'. Kent Krupa (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Russia contact in lead section - undue?

The sentence about Snowden having contact with Russian diplomats in Hong Kong is non-neutral and a BLP violation. Putin is not a reliable source, and its awkward inclusion in the lead section implies some sort of broader connection with Russia without reliable sourcing. From the beginning there have been rumors, spread mostly by defense hawks, that Snowden is a Russian spy. But including that is pure unsourced conjecture and is plainly contrary to our policies. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:09, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to remove it. petrarchan47คุก 04:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Size of lead

Sparked by Dr. Fleischman's 23:57, 4 June 2015‎ edit summary: "lead too long - too much detail," there is now renewed interest in reducing the size of our intro. Before making additional changes, I recommend that we await editorial consensus on my recent edits, which cut the lead from 555 words to 349 words—a 37% reduction. Kent Krupa (talk) 04:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Your removal of one paragraph - a paragraph which is the result of much debate and consensus (see earliest talk page archives) - is not the way to reduce words, if indeed the community agrees that should be a goal. I doubt DrFleischman would support this either. Ideally one would reduce by more tightly summarizing all of the content. Perception of Snowden and the resulting effects of his actions was fodder for probably 90% of the reporting. It must be mentioned in the Lede per WP:LEDE given that it is extensively covered in the article. petrarchan47คุก 04:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, thanks for your comment. Of course your contributions to this article have been nonpareil. However, please let Dr. Fleischman speak for himself. He has not yet had a chance to review my edits. I appreciate your patience. Kent Krupa (talk) 04:55, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree with petrarchan47. We don't chop for chopping's sake. The impact of his actions and how they were perceived is a major part of his notability. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

[edit conflict] I'm in no way stopping him from responding, however the community consists of multiple editors. The LEDE does not violate WP:LEADLENGTH, so I am unsure what justification there is for the recent hack job/edit war. petrarchan47คุก 05:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Or why the deletion can't be proposed here and gain consensus first before being done. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Paragraphs 1 + 2 now seem about right. Paragraphs 3 and 4 should be reduced to about 1 or 2 sentences, with the details being transferred to the body of the article (though they're probably all already there, but that just needs checking). The sentence(s) left in the lead should read something like:

• 'A former analyst at the CIA [citation] and trainer at the DIA [citation] and subsequent contractor at NSA [citation], after arranging to leak the information, he fled to Hong Kong,[citation] and then to Moscow, Russia,[citation] in Month, Year, from where he has been seeking political asylum in the EU [citation], after United States federal prosecutors filed a criminal complaint against him in June 2013, charging him with theft of government property, and two counts of violating the Espionage Act through unauthorized communication of national defense information and "willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person."[22][263] Each of the three charges carries a maximum possible prison term of ten years.[23]

Tlhslobus (talk) 06:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I may make those changes myself, perhaps tomorrow (to give time to hear objections, if any), though I may get lazy or lose interest and not bother, so if anybody wants to go ahead and make those changes themselves, please go ahead and do so. Tlhslobus (talk) 07:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Tlhslobus, I object. This is a highly contentious issue that deserves full discussion. Please wait more than 24 hours to give other editors a chance to weigh in. Also, you propose that "after arranging to leak the information, he fled to Hong Kong." That is false. First, he did not finalize arrangements to leak until after he left Hawaii. Second, it's misleading to say he "fled" to Hong Kong, since on May 20 he was not a fugitive and was not being pursued. It's also misleading to state, as you propose, that from Moscow "he has been seeking political asylum in the EU." That's true as far as it goes, but since arriving in Moscow he has sought asylum in countries worldwide, not just EU. Kent Krupa (talk) 15:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I firmly object to drastic lead changes without full approval from interested editors. Period. Gandydancer (talk) 17:18, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Tlhslobus, please read WP:LEDE if you haven't seen it yet. I'm thinking your comment, "Paragraphs 3 and 4 should be reduced to about 1 or 2 sentences", is not based on any guideline I'm aware of. With many editors each having a personal view, we have to rely on the guidelines whenever possible. petrarchan47คุก 19:10, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I am offended that my {{lead too long}} tag has been used as an excuse to re-write the lead in a grossly non-neutral way. I agree with Petrarchan and Kent Krupa and strongly object to the changes of the last 24 hours, particularly the new second paragraph describing what Snowden has been called and the consequences of the disclosures. This is not productive and is contrary to hard-fought consensus that was built over the last 2 years. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The purpose of my tag was merely to point out that there were (and still are) too many unnecessary details in what were the third and fourth paragraphs. There is no need for us to include in the lead the specific dates Snowden did this, Snowden did that when it was all in June 2013. The fact that Snowden made his identity public 4 days after the first press stories, who cares now. The fact that he feels very secure in Russia, who cares. The fact that he faces 30 years in prison, probably overkill. Even the stuff about being stuck in the Moscow airport is excessive. The big picture is that he's stuck in Russia without a passport on a 3 year residency period and has sought asylum elsewhere. It's also sufficiently notable that he's made a number of online appearances with the West since June 2013. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)