Talk:Eidetic memory

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Eidetic vs. photographic

Here http://www.slate.com/id/2140685/ is stated that there are differences between both types of memory. I've suggested to split this article in two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.42.38.207 (talk) 09:44, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The link has a POV. Not a suitable reason, unless you can make a stronger case; first, you have to show there are qualitative or quantitative reasons. We need more knowledge to characterize this topic first. --Ancheta Wis (talk) 10:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not an expert in this matter, so I'm afraid I can't make a case strong enough. After some Google "research" I've found that: 1. Several pages have the same description as Wikipedia's article (I don't know who copied whom), in these sources photographic memory=eidetic memory=total recall. 2. Some people calls "eidetic memory" to a special ability (learned or inherited), but not necessarily "photographic", so the latter term will be inappropriate. (see for example http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/photomemory.html). Probably there is no need for two different articles, but I think it will be a good idea to point out the differences between both terms. 62.42.38.207 (talk) 16:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree with merger. Photographic memory seems to be either a synonym or subset of eidetic memory, depending on whose definition you use. -Lamarcus (talk) 04:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree with merger. Eidetic memory tends to include photographic memory, as Lamarcus has noted. P.F. Bruns (talk) 20:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree There's currently not even a section on photographic memory in this article to be split off. Jon (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with splitting into two articles. This article should definitely be split, because it's highly misleading at the moment. See my comment below in this section, but I'd rename this one to Photographic memory (which is a popular culture myth) and make another page to cover Eidetic imagery, which is something very different. Let99 (talk) 16:03, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Eidetic IMAGERY is the appropriate term and it is NOT photographic memory. According to most psychologists, photographic memory doesn't exist. http://psycnet.apa.org/books/10518/055.pdf 216.165.24.190 (talk) 05:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If psychlogists are defining Eidetic Memory differently than how lay people are defining photographic memory this article could use a sourced paragraph or two about the difference. Jon (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure your sentence was in English. -98.154.249.46 (talk) 14:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The term 'photographic memory' is a popular term, and one not used in psychology. -98.154.249.46 (talk) 14:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Photographic memory" and "total recall" are popular culture terms. They just don't exist, according to research. Eidetic memory is something different and they should not be referred to as the same thing in the same sentence. I think it should be two articles -- one for eidetic memory (according to psychology), and one that shows all the evidence that "photographic memory" or "total recall" is a myth from popular culture. They are not the same things, so in its current form, the article is very confusing. Edit: what do you think about renaming this page to "Eidetic imagery" and creating a new page about the popular culture term "Photographic Memory" (a.k.a., "total recall")? The ideal way to do it is to rename this page to "Photographic memory" and split the eidetic content into a new page called "Eidetic imagery". Let99 (talk) 15:45, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let99, see WP:Content fork; there is no need for two articles to address different uses of the term (or terms). The terms are used interchangeably, even though distinguished by different sources. All of that can be covered in one article -- Eidetic memory -- the same thing that Wikipedia does for many other articles, such as Atheism and all of its interchangeable or otherwise related terms (though some of those interchangeable or otherwise related terms have their own articles). Flyer22 (talk) 15:58, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They are not the same things and should not be used interchangeably. "Photographic memory" is a popular culture myth that doesn't exist. One can't say that eidetic memory exists and then claim that "photographic memory" is synonymous. Let99 (talk) 16:05, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let99, we go by what the WP:Reliable sources state, per WP:Verifiability, not our personal opinions; as is made quite clear by others above and elsewhere on this talk page, the terms are used interchangeably (not always) and, depending on how a source is defining the matter, are the same thing. If you are not aware of how we cover discrepancies with regard to a term here at Wikipedia, I advise you to look at the Atheism article and other Wikipedia articles that have a Definitions section or something similar. I also advise you to read WP:Content fork. Either way, there is no WP:Consensus for what you are suggesting be done with this article. Flyer22 (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know. I will find other people who are knowledgeable about memory to leave their opinions here and help fix the article. The current page is one of those "worst of Wikipedia" pages, because it perpetuates bad information into popular culture. Let99 (talk) 16:19, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You just reverted my edits, which I'm still in the middle of working on. Did you read the articles? They say what I added there. There is no original research in my edits. Eidetic memory is not the same thing as what is called photographic memory. See this page for the difference. Eidetic imagery is not photographic memory. Let99 (talk) 16:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That very short definition is not an adequate source. Please find better sources (preferably scientific journals) that distinguish between the two concepts. --NeilN talk to me 16:38, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please give me some minutes to do that. The entire Internet is corrupted by people's using Wikipedia for research. Even psychology websites are just copying content from Wikipedia, which is why it's important to get this article right. Let99 (talk) 16:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I reverted you, and I just might do it again, like I did here, if you don't stick to what the sources state. Where do the sources state "often mistakenly confused with the non-existing"? They don't. That is you violating the WP:Synthesis policy, which is an aspect of the WP:Original research policy; this means that you are drawing a conclusion not made explicitly clear by the sources. Furthermore, you are violating the WP:Neutral policy, as you are making it out as though these terms are never legitimately defined in the same way, despite the fact that they are often legitimately defined in the same way. You repeatedly claiming "[e]idetic memory is not the same thing as what is called photographic memory" has no standing when compared to what WP:Reliable sources state. Flyer22 (talk) 16:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why is Wikipedia filled with so many hostile people? No need to be like that. There are many bad Wikipedia articles like this that will continue to spread false information around society due to these kinds of attitudes. Can I ask you what background you have in the memory field that makes you so confident that there are no differences between eidetic imagery in psychology and photographic memory as it appears in popular culture? I'm still looking for additional studies to cite at the moment, so please give me a bit of time. You can search around journals like this in the meantime, if you want to learn more about it. Let99 (talk) 16:52, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why is Wikipedia filled with so many editors who have been editing this site for several years and yet act like WP:Newbies in more than one way? No need to be like that. Just become more familiar with the way this site is supposed to work. My wanting you to follow the rules is not being hostile. I am stern with regard to a lot of Wikipedia rules. I now see that you are getting your "often mistakenly confused with the non-existing" wording from the Slate source, which states: "Photographic memory is often confused with another bizarre—but real—perceptual phenomenon called eidetic memory, which occurs in between 2 and 15 percent of children and very rarely in adults." Still, you are giving WP:Undue weight to that one source on the matter. I don't think that you are reading any of the guideline and policy pages I'm referring you to or that you care to read them, so I'll be ceasing discussion with you on this matter and will refrain from any further involvement with this article. Some things on Wikipedia I have patience for; not for this. This article just is not that important to me, and editors who are not well read on Wikipedia policies and guidelines are added frustration for very experienced Wikipedia editors. And, for the record, no Wikipedia editor has to accept any problematic or likely problematic reversion while waiting for the editor who made the problematic or likely problematic reversion to gather sources. Flyer22 (talk) 17:13, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is problematic as is. I'm trying to fix it. Instead of jumping on people, why not work together to help make it accurate instead of just deleting things? The kind of behavior that some people do in their enthusiasm to enforce rules often makes it very difficult for people to fix articles like this that are spreading wrong information. If you think that my edits go against the rules, we can work to improve the additions here on the talk page. It seems that working on the same side towards the same goal would be more pleasant than this. Let99 (talk) 17:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I work with other Wikipedia editors often, especially when I feel that the outcome will be beneficial to the Wikipedia article; I do not have a hint that the outcome will be beneficial to the Wikipedia article in this case. And I never stated that there are "no differences between eidetic imagery in psychology and photographic memory as it appears in popular culture." I was very clear above that it's a matter of what WP:Reliable sources state. Flyer22 (talk) 17:44, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's always a good idea when challenged, to add proper sources with your edits so you can show other editors it's not only you who thinks your changes are "right". --NeilN talk to me 16:48, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My sources are proper. "Photographic memory" doesn't exist. Eidetic imagery does, and it's something different. Edit: additional links coming shortly. Let99 (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The sources you have so far given do not specifically compare the two concepts. Furthermore, this source uses "photographic memory" and has the same facts as your Behavioral and Brain Sciences abstract. --NeilN talk to me 17:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how many people you will find extensively comparing the two other than in Wikipedia and Wikipedia-derived articles. Wikipedia itself is the source of the confusion. Go read some scientific papers that contain definitions of eidetic imagery and you will see that it is not "photographic memory". The Psychology Today article says that photographic memory probably doesn't exist. (It doesn't, and Haraguchi surely uses an advanced mnemonic system like the method of loci combined with something like the major system.) It also says that eidetic imagery is not photographic memory as the word is understood by most people in popular culture. Let99 (talk) 17:18, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still not seeing any sources for "mistakenly confused". Are you going to provide any? If not, I will be modifying your edits. --NeilN talk to me 17:26, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the word "mistakenly" but I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Eidetic imagery refers to images that a small percentage of children see. The definitions I've linked to clearly state this. Eidetic imagery is not "photographic memory", which is a popular culture term that has never been shown to exist. This Wikipedia article is using the two interchangeably and incorrectly. Also, could we keep this friendly and have you build upon my edits rather than completely revert them? We can keep discussing it here and gradually work towards making the article accurate. I will also ask some more people to leave their opinions on this page. Thanks... Let99 (talk) 18:08, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Update

Until recently, Let99 and I hadn't extensively edited this article in years. As seen with this link, I recently altered the article with different edits. Let99 showed up sometime later to make changes, including rearranging things and partly reverting me. I did not like the rearrangement and reverted. I then decided to go ahead and source the interchangeability aspect, add other sourced material, and to better design the article article; that is seen here and here. The "Eidetic memory or photographic memory" heading is clearer than "Overview"; furthermore, per WP:Lead, the lead is the overview. I added a "Prevalence" heading because the information about who has or doesn't have eidetic memory, and why, is better suited under that title...away from the definitional material. The "Myths about photographic memory" heading was added by Let99, but that section is not solely about myths, and it is even less so with the content I added; so I changed the heading of that section to "Views"...which is more accurate and more encyclopedic. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:02, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for editing it rather than reverting. I added some more edits. We can keep editing it until it's satisfactory to everyone. It should be very clear to readers that "eidetic images" (in psychology) and "photographic memory" are not the same things. Photographic memory does not exist, and eidetic images are generally not found in adults and they don't allow people to perform spectacular memory feats. Let99 (talk) 16:06, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted your latest edits, per my previous posts in this section and per my latest post in this section. Most of the sources I added are clear that the terms are used interchangeably or that photographic memory and eidetic memory are the same topic, but that the term eidetic memory is more accurate; if they distinguish photographic memory and eidetic memory at all, it's only slightly. Those sources are WP:Reliable psychology sources, and they are the following:
  • Dennis Coon (2005). Psychology: A Modular Approach to Mind and Behavior. Cengage Learning. p. 310. ISBN 0534605931. Retrieved May 10, 2016. The term photographic memory is more often used to describe eidetic imagery.
  • Annette Kujawski Taylor (2013). Encyclopedia of Human Memory [3 volumes]. ABC-CLIO. p. 951. ISBN 144080026X. Retrieved May 10, 2016. Eidetic memory is sometimes called photographic memory because individuals who possess eidetic memory can reproduce information from memory in exactly the format in which it was provided during encoding.
  • Psychology: From Inquiry to Understanding. Pearson Higher Education. 2014. p. 353. ISBN 1486016405. Retrieved May 10, 2016. Iconic memory may help to explain the remarkable phenomenon of eidetic imagery, popularly called 'photographic memory'. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)
  • S. Marc Breedlove (2015). Principles of Psychology. Oxford University Press. p. 353. ISBN 0199329362. Retrieved May 10, 2016. If a person had iconic memory that did not fade with time, he or she would have what is sometimes called photographic memory (also called eidetic memory), the ability to recall entire images with extreme detail.
More sources state similarly. So we should not be strict in stating that photographic memory and eidetic memory are not the same thing when so many reliable sources are clear they are treated as the same topic. What we are supposed to do is be clear that the terms may also be distinguished -- that, sometimes, these are two concepts that are not considered the same thing -- and that's what I did. Your wording was non-neutral and less than accurate when considering the literature as a whole. Only one of the sources I added clearly states that photographic memory and eidetic memory are not the same thing, and I noted in the edit history that I'm not sure about that source; this is because I don't know the reliability of the publisher, and that author's credentials are lacking for this topic. As noted, I was already clear in the lead and lower in the article that photographic memory and eidetic memory may be distinguished. Clearly, going by the sources, they are not always distinguished. When researching photographic memory or eidetic memory, they are almost always discussed together, and are either treated as the same thing or as two different things. And this article should reflect that.
I am not interested in heavily debating this. I am interested in going by what the literature states with WP:Due weight. So if you insist on going with your aforementioned wording, I will start a WP:RfC on this matter, with a list of reliable sources showing what the literature states about this terminological situation...so that other editors can clearly judge all of this for themselves. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:25, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment: With this edit, I restored some of your wording because it is supported by the sources and is fine. That stated, in the case of my "while photographic memory has never been proven to exist and is considered popular myth" wording vs. your "is a popular culture myth that has never been demonstrated to exist" wording, I think my wording is better because a myth is always something that has never been demonstrated to exist. When it comes to your "with eidetic memory referring to the ability of some children to view eidetic imagery, or impressions of visual images for a few moments after looking away from them, and photographic memory, referring to the ability to recall information in great detail after seeing it just once" wording, that is not directly supported by the sources used for the sentence. Furthermore, while eidetic memory is typically only found in young children, it is not an ability exclusive to young children. So making it seem like it is exclusive to young children is off. And the lead already states "Eidetic images occur in a small number of children and generally are not found in adults." Also, I explained above why I object to your "Myths about photographic memory" heading; I stated, "That section is not solely about myths, and it is even less so with the content I added; so I changed the heading of that section to 'Views'...which is more accurate and more encyclopedic." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:55, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is not clear that they are not the same thing from your wording. The reason that I knew that the page was edited, is that someone told me "photographic memory exists, because Wikipedia says so." So I came over to the page and say that it was made ambiguous again. People are reading your version and coming away not understanding that "photographic memory" is completely debunked and unquestionably does not exist. "Eidetic imagery" in psychology is not "photographic memory" -- it refers to the brief impression of an image that children sometimes see, and it has nothing to do with adults who memorize things. There is no science to support that. This is not clear in the article. It is not up to you whether you are "interested in debating it". I'm not interested in "debating" either -- only in seeing that the article is not misleading. Your lack of interest in spending time on it doesn't outweigh my lack of interest on it. The problem is that the article is misleading readers, and it still needs to be fixed. We can keep editing it until it's satisfactory to everyone. In order to keep things moving forward, please edit rather than reverting. Let99 (talk) 17:29, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If "it is not clear that they are not the same thing from [my] wording," then this is because, like I just told you, "Most of the sources I added are clear that the terms are used interchangeably or that photographic memory and eidetic memory are the same topic, but that the term eidetic memory is more accurate; if they distinguish photographic memory and eidetic memory at all, it's only slightly." In other words, sources usually treat these topics side by side and as the same thing while other sources distinguish them or slightly distinguish them. In fact, enough sources note that some researchers doubt that eidetic memory exists at all. Going by all of this, we should not be strict in stating that eidetic memory and photographic memory are not the same thing; we should be clear that they are sometimes distinguished. You stated that "People are reading [my] version and coming away not understanding that "photographic memory" is completely debunked and unquestionably does not exist.", but, given that "my version" is very recent and is very clear that the two terms/concepts are sometimes distinguished, this is not true. My wording states: "Although the terms eidetic memory and photographic memory may be used interchangeably, they are also distinguished, with eidetic memory referring to the ability to view memories like photographs, and photographic memory referring to the ability to recall page or text numbers, or similar, in great detail. In the case of distinguishing the concepts, eidetic memory has been documented while photographic memory is a popular culture myth that has never been demonstrated to exist." That is very clear about what the literature relays. It is up to me whether I am interested in debating this. And I am not interested in debating this with you because, in addition to being very busy, you are going on your personal feelings about the topic rather than what WP:Reliable sources state. I am arguing with sources; you are not. It appears that you came to edit this article again because you saw me at it. You had not edited this article in years. I tweaked some things and you were suddenly back here. Anyway, the RfC below, which is for input from others, will hopefully handle all of this. I appreciate that you have not yet reverted again. Let's see what others have to state. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:09, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Long-Term Memory?

I remember reading an article in some semi-popular journal a few years back that claimed that people with eidetic memory often have poor long-term memory. Can anyone find that article or something disproving it? I've tried to, but failed. 129.138.32.219 (talk) 06:03, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Photographic Memory

I am a bit confused after reading this article. Basically it says that this kind of memory is thought to be non existant. But then again... I can remember large pieces of text almost word by word reading them once or twice. The way it works is that I read the text and after that I can "see" the pages in my mind as pictures. Whenever I take exams or tests I simply "see" the text as it appears in reality in my mind and write down all I need. I can easily tell on which page the passage in question is and so on. Not always can I remember the text EXACTLY as it is after reading it for the first time, reading it twice is the best. Why? I would compare it to seeing a picture - you look at it at first and you see - oh there is John, James and Jill. You look at it again and you notice other details. So far I have tested myself with up to 60 pages and have been very close to the original text. And yes - I have made some of my teachers cry tears of joy, because they think that I have studied very hard :D :D :D So my question is - is my memory PHOTOGRAPHIC? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.148.15.35 (talk) 17:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have photographic memory, get yourself tested by scientists in a controlled setting. You will be the first. Let99 (talk) 16:21, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article originally mentions that photographic memory has never been demonstrated to exist. Therefore, we should rephrase the opening sentence in the Autism section to "varying degrees of *eidetic memory" to avoid conflicting statements. Devinrajan95 (talk) 22:03, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No description of the reported sensation of experiencing eidetic memory is included in this article. This would help readers understand what distinguishes eidetic from photographic memory. Eidetic memory is described as a vivid after image that lingers in the mind's eye, with accuracy fading with the passage of time. People report “seeing” the image and their eyes appear to scan across the image as they describe it. Children with eidetic memory cannot memorize a page of text as photographic memory would imply. The memory is purely visual. A hypothesis as to why this ability is lost over age is that language acquisition and verbal skills allow older children to think more abstractly and thus prioritize visual memory systems less. Still despite this change over time, most people's memory for visual information is more detailed than our recall for other kinds of material. Sources used are Scientific American and Psychology Today Devinrajan95 (talk) 23:57, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is a great point about clearing up the differences between eidetic memory and photographic memory. The problem of informing people that photographic memory is a visual specific skill is very wide and many misconceptions are held about this. I think the wording is appropriate and would help the reader better understand that there are different types of eidetic among different people.Cproctor23 (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2016 (UTC)Cproctor23[reply]

Eidetic Imagery

Just trying to see if anyone else on this website is like me.

Since I can remember, I've had a "photographic memory", When I was 5 or 6 I remember staring past my white dining room table, towards the sunset through glass doors behind it. When closing my eyes, because the scene was so bright, I could still see all of the shapes of it in an orange light very clearly when I closed my eyes. The image got brighter when I covered my eyes with my hands, and almost as if it was stuck on my retina, i could still see it when i opened my eyes, like a double negative photo, and it moved wherever my eyes did. It would slowly fade away, and I would try again. Since then I can still see a picture of that same spot, from the same angle, in impecable clarity, but it's no longer in my eyes, the image is now stored in my head, and i can see it with my brain and not my eyes, in clear accurate picture form, not details organized and separately remembered. i see the picture, and pick details from it. i can do this whenever i want, except for in dark areas. the brighter the thing to be memorized, the clearer the picture. something also strange, i can see pictures in the retina form "they move with my eyes" in solid colors, eg. a dolls face all blue, a road in yellow, a persons face all orange. and i can close my eyes and if i focus, colors will come up behind my eyes, then i can demand the color, and it will change. and random pictures will appear in the colors, then fade slowly away. then i can recall pictures that i wish to see in my eyes, but it takes a little while for the right one. those are less clear colored shapes on the black. but the real long term memory pictures are crystal clear, and vivid, and thats how i amaze my family and my husband because i can tell him exactly where he stood, what he was wearing exactly, what look was on his face, the lighting, the location, the cars passing, things behind him, from random times from years ago. also every dream i have is like this vivid, and i remember them vividly in pictures as well. Last thing, when i was a child, i had all the disney movies, so when it was bed time and i would be scared or unable to sleep, i would see an image of a movie theater, the curtains would open, and i could honestly play an entire disney movie like bambie or alice in wonderland, in my head scene for scene clearly, until i fell asleep. i've mostly lost that ability, but i haven't tried in years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.105.140.170 (talk) 20:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Memory Records section should be changed/deleted

This section lists several feats of memorization which may or may not be attributed to eidetic memory. If a particular feat is attributed to eidetic memory, it should remain there. If it is not attributed to eidetic memory, then it has no place in this article. The second half of the article doesn't even have anything to do with memory records, and should be placed in a separate section or removed. The paragraph about synesthesia does not clearly explain how it relates to eidetic memory, and should be clarified, or removed.

Also, in the 'Controversy' section, it is said that Elizabeth refused to take additional tests, yet the source only says she was never tested again.

Sources 5 and 7 are identical. Darktangent (talk) 05:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Islamic guy at the bottom

Do we need a long as name instead of the shorter one?--Ssteiner209 (talk) 21:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone translate this? I don't know which one is less informative - the article or the comments. -.- -98.154.249.46 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC).[reply]


Andriy Slyusarchuk

Please take care that any records by a guy called Andriy Slyusarchuk are not included. he is a liar, none of his records are officially accepted. He also claims to be able to read minds and - what an interesting statement - that he uses hypnosis to make people believe anything he wants them to believe. 94.216.213.26 (talk) 19:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List

I do not know, why this list is included again. You can already see, that the stupids edits on that list occur again. None of this claims are supported by reliable sources. This is not at all scientific or worth to be in an encylopedia, therefore I highly suggest to keep that extra page with the list of people outside of this article and anyone with unreliable claims can be added there. Memoryexpert de (talk) 12:44, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eidetic Imagery/Therapy

I have removed the line that enjoined users seeking information on "eidetic therapy" to see the article on "Eidetic Imagery." No such article currently exists, and if you clicked the link you just found yourself redirected back to this article again. There probably ought to be an article on Eidetic Imagery (certainly this mess of an article does not cover the topic adequately); indeed, if done at all adequately it ought to replace this one. By no means all psychologists agree that eidetic imagery is a real, distinct phenomenon, but at least it is a reasonably well defined scientific meaning. "Eidetic memory," by contrast, has no real scientific meaning, and the idea seems to be nothing but a confusion between eidetic imagery (which, if real, is a very vivid and detailed, but quite briefly persisting form of visual memory) and the very good memories that people do have for certain sorts of material. Some people do, indeed, have extraordinary memory abilities, but there is nothing particularly "eidetic" about them, and the people who are claimed to have eidetic imagery (almost all young children) do not generally have unusually good memory abilities, at any rate, not beyond the few minutes or even seconds for which an eidetic image is usually claimed to persist.

Eidetic therapy is another topic again, that may or may not deserve its own entry. There is such a psychotherapeutic technique (and theory), that does, I think, involve the use of eidetic imagery, but, to the best of my knowledge, only a very small number of psychotherapists practice it, and it is not widely recognized as having any true scientific basis. Treharne (talk) 15:59, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this article would benefit from the addition of a description of how eidetic memory is diagnosed or experimentally assessed in a laboratory. If no such assessment exists, it should be mentioned as well, as readers may wonder how valid one’s claim may be, especially because the advanced memory it could be a factor of mnemonic/memory palace use, hyperthymesia, or a product of synesthesia. You mention that "eidetic memory" has no real concrete scientific meaning, which may contribute to the difficulty in "diagnosis" as there is no set of clear attributes that an "eidetic" individual may possess. Either way, the article should mention this. Devinrajan95 (talk) 03:09, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if "diagnosed" would be the accurate term to use. Detected may be better. There is a test however for Eidetic memory with images by having the subject attempt to construct a full image from two abstract halves shown one at a time.Michael O'Sullivan Duke (talk) 17:53, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that a description should be added of how eidetic memory is detected/experimentally assessed in a laboratory. I think many people have the misconception that photographic memory exists, and if they read this page they would like to know why "no one claiming to have long-term eidetic memory had this ability proven" and how this was tested. Maybe you can include Dr. Marsh's example that if you truly have photographic memory, you should be able to look at a page in book, then close your eyes and read that page backwards. Psy250 jes85 (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Elizabeth"

I have made some edits and added some citations to the section on Elizabeth's alleged abilities. I think the skepticism expressed about her there is very warranted, but I do wonder if it is really true that it was largely skepticism about the claims about her that led to a more general scientific skepticism about eidetic imagery/memory as such. I am fairly familiar with the field, and I have never come across anything suggesting that this is the case. Also, when the rumors about the problems with this study first came to my attention (almost 30 years ago, as gossip from a psychology professor) the story that I heard was that it was not the result of fraud by the researcher (Stromeyer, who went on to become a tenured Harvard professor), but, rather, the result of a practical joke that got out of hand, played upon Stromeyer by his fiancee (i.e. "Elizabeth" herself) and some of their friends. I am not sure how this might be indicated in the article, especially as I can provide no cite for it, but, although it does not say so directly, the account as it stands might be read as implying that Stromeyer is a fraudster, which might be quite unfair.

Also, I believe that "Elizabeth" is not the real name of the woman in question, but is rather a pseudonym used to refer to her in the published accounts of her alleged abilities. It is a standard practice in the psychological sciences to refer to individual subjects with pseudonyms in this way, to preserve their privacy. Treharne (talk) 15:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

REMOVED: reimproved tag

Hello, I have removed the following tag:

{{Refimprove|date=May 2010}}


For the following reasons:

I Arman Cagle, have added a reference section,
and added three references that relate to the article.

If you have any questions, please reply to me on my talk page.
Thanks,
Arman Cagle

Arman Cagle (Contact me EMail Me Contribs) 17:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Duration

How long does photographic memory last? Is it a matter of minutes or hours? I mean photographic memory in the limited, clinical sense and not in the popular culture sense which seem to be largely mythical.

2010-09-12 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Jobs?

I've been trying to do some research on whether there are jobs that require a photographic memory. I have found no luck so far. Any suggestions? My 'talent' is limited to number memorization but it is quite impressive. Share your thoughts!


I don't think there are any such jobs. You have probably misunderstood the concept of photographic memory.

2011-01-04 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

I would be incredibly surprised to find a job where eidetic memory is a prerequisite, seeing as it has never been proven to exist, that would be akin to finding a job where you have to be bigfoot to do it -ross616- (talk) 18:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There may be jobs where having a photographic memory helps, especially within the visual art fields, eg. court illustrator. Anyway, this amounts to discussion of the article as far as I can tell Totorotroll (talk) 09:50, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In popular culture - "My Idea of Fun"

I added a paragraph on Will Self's novel "My Idea of Fun". Eidetic memory ( or some expanded form of it ) is a significant theme in the novel, so I thought it might be worth mentioning it here.

This was my first ever contribution to Wikipedia, my previous participation was limited to occasionally correcting spelling mistakes. I hope it's OK - I was a little unsure about how to add references to books. Is the reference to the book in keeping with "house style" ?

Incidentally, the book is a really interesting read. It gets quite extreme in places, so it might not be to everyone's taste. 31.151.143.227 (talk) 13:15, 6 December 2012 (UTC)Simon[reply]

Your addition is obviously wholly in good faith, and it's well written. But just because you personally find this novel by Will Self interesting, does not necessarily mean that it can contribute to any general understanding of the phenomenon. It's fiction. Indeed, given that the book has its own wikipedia article, I'm not sure there is any need to have quite so much detail here. For some readers it might even confuse the boundary between fact and fiction. Sorry to sound so negative, but that's my view. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have now reverted your last edit, but the first one is still there. It was too elaborate. Don't be discouraged though, it is hard in the beginning to know which edits will be kept and which will be changed. Lova Falk talk 14:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

please add this references

This was done on "Elizabeth" also:

Nature 237, 109 - 112 (12 May 1972); doi:10.1038/237109a0 Alpha Rhythm and Eye Movements in Eidetic Imagery DANIEL A. POLLEN & MICHAEL C. TRACHTENBERG* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.49.217.248 (talk) 15:54, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

pop culture sherlock holmes

surely holmes warrants a mention in thepop culture refrence? in thhe original books as well as new TV show/movies holmes incredible ability to pull up the most minute of details from a situation well after it occurs is a prime example of eidetic memory in both it's most norrow definition as well as the broader scope of just having the training/knowledge to pick up more details in an image.

as a side quesion. does muscle memory count as edetic or is this a seperate phenomium?152.91.9.153 (talk) 03:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Major problems with article

This article has major problems. Mostly the lack of sources. The Overview section has almost no sources. Even worse, there is a lot of weasel words saying that ideas about eidetic memory are still theoretical and there is not yet experimental techniques to accurate study it. These sorts of statements are by definition not verifiable and thus cannot be in a wikipedia article. I will chop the obviously unsalvageable portions and add CITE tags to the rest. Ashmoo (talk) 18:24, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

afaik, the wp convention is that sources are not required in the overview, assuming that the overview summarises adequately sourced material in the body. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.38.92 (talk) 08:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely Poor and Misleading Overview Section

I am a memory researcher at UC Irvine, and I have to say that the overview of this article is misleading and, erm, wrong--just dead wrong. The correct way to write an encyclopedia article about eidetic memory is from a skeptical viewpoint. Properly done scientific investigations do not support the idea that anyone has photographic, perfect, or eidetic memory. So, for example, it should read "Eidetic memory is an alleged ability that..." and " although there is some evidence of people with above average memory, no verified cases have shown perfect memory recall..." etc etc. Gosh I wish someone from APS' wiki initiative would fix this article. I don't have time.

Eidetic memory is not fictional. Photographic memory is fictional.

The first sentence in this article claims eidetic memory is fictional. This is false, and the Slate article referenced (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2006/04/kaavya_syndrome.single.html) is clear on this. Here's what the Slate article says, "Photographic memory is often confused with another bizarre—but real—perceptual phenomenon called eidetic memory, which occurs in between 2 and 15 percent of children and very rarely in adults." The word "real" is right there. Seems unambiguously wrong to claim eidetic memory is fictional. Ericsilva (talk) 22:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In popular culture

This section is moved from the article, where it was tagged as listcruft for being indiscriminate, to talk. It is too long and needs to be pared down to significant, notable or representative examples. RJFJR (talk) 19:31, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Television characters with eidetic memories include

In Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events series, one of the three protagonists, Klaus Baudelaire, is an avid reader and amateur researcher with an eidetic memory. He remembers virtually everything that he reads from books of any kind, even learned many languages. His knowledge and resources often help his other siblings, Violet and Sunny, to escape from dangerous situations, e.g. Count Olaf, the primary antagonist of the series.

Symbologist Robert Langdon from Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, The Da Vinci Code, The Lost Symbol and Inferno has an eidetic memory.

In the Swedish Millennium series by Stieg Larsson (and its accompanying films), the hacker heroine Lisbeth Salander has an eidetic memory.[1]

In the movie Good Will Hunting, the main character, Will Hunting, is said to possess both an extraordinary IQ and an eidetic memory, demonstrated at the bar scene where he confronts a plagiarist. [citation needed]

Significant parts of the plot of Small Gods by Terry Pratchett depend on the hyperthymestic, eidetic memory of the novice Brutha. He remembers every moment of his life in perfect detail, down to the precise location and timing of individual footsteps. He cannot read, but he can nevertheless make perfect reproductions of documents from memory because he remembers the shapes of the letters. When he witnesses a disreputable action and is ordered to forget it, he does not understand the order as he has no concept of "forgetting". When asked what is the first thing that he can remember, he replies "There was a bright light, and then someone hit me".

The novel My Idea of Fun by author Will Self features a protagonist with a powerful eidetic memory, and this is explored extensively by Self.[2] In this novel, the eidetic capabilities of the "Eidetiker" greatly exceed those described in this article.

In keeping with their unusual style, Autechre named track 7 from Confield 'Eidetic Casein' (literally translated, meaning 'photographic milk-proteins').

In Thomas Harris's 1981 novel Red Dragon, protagonist Will Graham is explicitly identified as having an eidetic memory rivaling Hannibal Lecter's.

In the visual novels Jisei, Kansei and Yousei by SakeVisual, one of the characters, Naoki Mizutani, possesses an eidetic memory.

In the comic book series Ruse, Simon Archard, one of the primary protagonists, has an eidetic memory.

In the Mass Effect series, the Drell species possess eidetic memory as a racial trait.

In Sharon Draper's novel Out of My Mind, the character Melody has eidetic memory though she has a condition called "Cerebral Palsy".

In David Foster Wallace's novel Infinite Jest, the character Hal Incandenza has an eidetic memory.

In Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, the character Bean has a completely flawless eidetic memory.

In Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun, the protagonist Severian has a supposedly eidetic memory.

In Jim Butcher's The Dresden Files, Lasciel, Dresden's temporary mental houseguest, creates a physical persona named Sheila, who helps Dresden with some magical detective work by using her eidetic memory.

Funes the Memorious" or "Funes, His Memory." (original Spanish title: "Funes el memorioso") is a fantasy short story by Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges. First published in La Nación in June 1942, it appeared in the 1944 anthology Ficciones, part two (Artifices).

  1. ^ Larsson, Stieg (2009). The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. New York: Vintage Crime/Black Lizard. p. 462. ISBN 978-0-307-47347-9. 'Lisbeth, you have a photographic memory,' Mikael exclaimed in surprise. 'That's why you can read a page of the investigation in ten seconds.'
  2. ^ Self, Will (1993). My Idea of Fun. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 165. ISBN 0-7475-1591-3. I went into a full-blown eidetic trance.

Deleted bare URL for Wiltshire

Deleted this sentence: "Stephen Wiltshire, an autistic savant, drew an 18' long highly detailed panorama of Manhattan after one 20 minute helicopter ride.[1]" because, as noted in Edit History: the link is a bare URL and, anyway, the info is already noted further into the article. The URL is usable, IF someone would care to properly format it and insert it as an additional Ref where pertinent (but any further elaboration is unnecessary in this article, I believe). Penwatchdog (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wogan's Perfect Recall is nothing to do with Eidetic memory

I don't see how Wogan's Perfect Recall, which is a general knowledge quiz, where 'contestants can answer either by knowing the answer or by remembering an answer from previous rounds', has anything to do with Eidetic memory. See this review http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2008/aug/28/1 James317a (talk) 21:05, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Franco Magnani

Where does Franco Magnani fit into any of this? See http://www.newyorker.com/books/double-take/back-issues-franco-magnani and An Anthropologist on Mars 82.35.199.68 (talk) 22:04, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A small contribution for the record

Here's something from 1972:

Although the nature of eidetic memory is still a mystery, objective tests have recently demonstrated that it does exist. … C. F. Stromeyer of Bell Telephone Laboratories, with J. Psotka of Harvard University's Department of Psychology, conducted a series of experiments to 'show the feasibility and objectivity of a new technique for determining the fidelity and duration of eidetic imagery'. … The existence of eidetic imagery was proved when the correct figure in depth became immediately visible.

But note this:

While the woman's ability seems to prove Stromeyer's case, no repeat testing was performed and no one else has ever been able to replicate the ability so most scientists and psychologists dismiss it as invalid.

86.166.176.130 (talk) 21:35, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In popular culture (again)

@Jameswilkinson5: Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content gives a useful four-part test for such entries:

  1. Has the subject (if a person or organization) acknowledged the existence of the reference?
  2. Have multiple reliable sources pointed out the reference?
  3. Did any real-world event occur because of the cultural element covered by the reference?
  4. Did the referencing material significantly depend on the specific subject? For example, if the reference is to a specific model of car, did the material use that model car for some reason, or was it just a case of "use a well-known name of a car"?

Eidetic or photographic memory is very commonly used as a plot device in crime dramas and related genres; any given instance is usually not particularly interesting nor worth documenting in an encyclopedia. It's unclear any of the remaining entries in the "In popular culture" section satisfy any of the above elements. I added a link to the page on tvtropes.org which has a comprehensive list of examples. I think that's sufficient and the list on the article can just be removed. -- Beland (talk) 18:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Hannibal Lecter article tells us that "He has an eidetic memory and a fondness for the method of loci: he has constructed in his mind an elaborate "memory palace" with which he relives memories and sensations in rich detail." But it's unclear on what, if anything, this claim is based. I don't know enough about the Thomas Harris books to know if that word is actually used by him. If not, then the inclusion of Lecter as a example here looks like WP:OR, as well as being trivial. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Beland:Ok agree thanks.Jameswilkinson5 (talk)

Hyperthymesia

It appears that previous users have deleted excess information claiming that it doesn’t “significantly contribute” to the knowledge of eidetic memory for a platform such as Wikipedia. Due to this article’s rather short length, there is plenty of room for examples to help further illustrate this phenomenon. I would suggest adding the example/hyperlink of Jill Price to the section that introduces hyperthymestic syndrome. Originally thought to possess eidetic memory, she was diagnosed with a condition similar to OCD that involves reminiscence of the past leading to superior autobiographical memory. This would tie in well to the exclusions of eidetic memory indicated—such as that the use of mnemonics cannot classify one as possessing eidetic memory. Devinrajan95 (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While explicitly adding the Jill Price example to the article is a good idea, it may mislead a passive reader, so perhaps just including a hyperlink is best. The most salient aspect of this article is the statement in the overview - "The popular culture concept of "photographic memory," where someone can briefly look at a page of text and then recite it perfectly from memory, is not the same as seeing eidetic images, and photographic memory has never been demonstrated to exist." However for the entirety of the article, "photographic memory" is referenced and discussed. It makes me ask, "is this article about "eidetic memory of photographic memory?" Perhaps consider changing this for continuity purposes (and/or removing sections that discuss photographic memory). Cnwobu (talk) 13:26, 27 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I also think adding a link to Jill Price is good. However, I'm not sure the Hyperthymesia paragraph should be in the Overview section. The transition to Hyperthymesia is a little too rough and disjoint. I feel it should maybe have its own subsection perhaps titled "Forms" or "Variations" of eidetic memory. But something I can't even discern from this wiki article is if hyperthymesia is even related to eidetic memory. I think it needs to be made clearer if hyperthymesia is a form or misconception of eidetic memory.RosaYang (talk) 02:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reorganize Overview for clarity

The first two paragraphs at the beginning of the overview should be reshuffled to improve the section's flow. The sentence "It is found in early childhood (between 2 percent and 10 percent of that age group) and is unconnected with the person's intelligence level" is reiterated two sentences later in slightly greater detail. That sentence should be deleted and the following paragraph should be changed to "Eidetic memory is available only during early childhood (between 2 and 10 percent of children aged 6 to 12) and is virtually nonexistent in adults. Extensive research has failed to demonstrate consistent correlations between the presence of eidetic imagery and any cognitive, intellectual, neurological or emotional measure." This way, the first paragraph introduces what eidetic memory is and how it may change, and the second establishes in whom it may be found. Devinrajan95 (talk) 20:21, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a good idea, another suggestion is that the first three paragraphs are wordy and excessive. They could be combined into a single concise paragraph written by one author as opposed three small paragraphs. Ceckersley (talk)

I agree with both the above comments. To be combined into one single paragraph would be really good. For example, the sentence in the 3rd paragraph, "The popular culture concept of "photographic memory," where someone can briefly look at a page of text and then recite it perfectly from memory, is not the same as seeing eidetic images, and photographic memory has never been demonstrated to exist," can be added after the definition of eidetic memory. It can be added after the first sentence by saying, "Conversely, photographic memory, where someone can briefly look at a page of text and then recite it perfectly from memory, is different than see eidetic images and has not been demonstrated to exist." Jh470 (talk) 17:36, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Autism Section

I removed the section on autism, since it looks like original research with original conclusions. I couldn't find any studies on autism and eidetic memory. Let99 (talk) 20:39, 9 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RfC: Should the article be strict in stating that photographic memory and eidetic memory are not the same thing?

One concern is that "It should be very clear to readers that 'eidetic images' (in psychology) and 'photographic memory' are not the same things. Photographic memory does not exist, and eidetic images are generally not found in adults and they don't allow people to perform spectacular memory feats. [...] 'Eidetic imagery' in psychology is not 'photographic memory' -- it refers to the brief impression of an image that children sometimes see, and it has nothing to do with adults who memorize things. There is no science to support that." The other concern is that "most of the sources [...] are clear that the terms are used interchangeably or that photographic memory and eidetic memory are the same topic, but that the term eidetic memory is more accurate; if they distinguish photographic memory and eidetic memory at all, it's only slightly. In other words, sources usually treat these topics side by side and as the same thing while other sources distinguish them or slightly distinguish them."

So the issue is this: Should we be strict in stating that eidetic memory and photographic memory are not the same thing? Or should we should initially treat the terms as the same thing, with "photographic memory" as the WP:Alternative title, and then relay that the terms are sometimes distinguished? Sources for examining the terminological matter are below. If viewing this from the RfC page or an alert on your talk page, the full discussion starts at Talk:Eidetic memory#Eidetic vs. photographic. I will alert WP:WikiProject Psychology and WP:Biology to this discussion.

Click on this to see the sources.

1. D. Draaisma (2000). Metaphors of Memory: A History of Ideas about the Mind. Cambridge University Press. p. 129. ISBN 0521650240. Retrieved May 11, 2016. The type of visual memory which is commonly called 'a photographic memory' was connected with photography at an early period. In 1868 Maudsley described the case of a man who was capable of repeating a text he had just read, backwards. This is the kind of visual memory, writes Maudsley, 'in which the person seems to read a photographic copy of former impressions with his mind's eye'. The metaphor of the 'photographic memory' is considerably older than the specialist term 'eidetic memory', which was only introduced in 1922.

2. David Moxon (2000). Memory. Heinemann. p. 15. ISBN 0435806521. Retrieved May 11, 2016. Photographic (eidetic) memory is a term given to describe an almost perfect replication of some observed material (usually observed for only a short period of time). It is more correctly referred to as 'eidetic memory'.

3. Dennis Coon (2005). Psychology: A Modular Approach to Mind and Behavior. Cengage Learning. p. 310. ISBN 0534605931. Retrieved May 10, 2016. The term photographic memory is more often used to describe eidetic imagery.

4. Foer, Joshua (April 27, 2006). "The accused Harvard plagiarist doesn't have a photographic memory. No one does". Slate. Retrieved May 11, 2016. Lots of people claim to have a photographic memory, but nobody actually does. Nobody. [...] That's not to say there aren't people with extraordinarily good memories—there are. They just can't take mental snapshots and recall them with perfect fidelity. [...] Photographic memory is often confused with another bizarre—but real—perceptual phenomenon called eidetic memory, which occurs in between 2 and 15 percent of children and very rarely in adults. An eidetic image is essentially a vivid afterimage that lingers in the mind's eye for up to a few minutes before fading away. Children with eidetic memory never have anything close to perfect recall, and they typically aren't able to visualize anything as detailed as a body of text.

5. AP Psychology. Barron's Educational Series. 2007. p. 106. ISBN 0764136658. Retrieved May 11, 2016. Memory researchers are particularly interested in individuals who demonstrate eidetic, or photographic, memory. [...] Some people say they have a photographic memory when what they mean is a very good memory. True eidetic memory occurs very rarely. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)

6. Introduction to Psychology: Gateways to Mind and Behavior. Cengage Learning. 2008. p. 273. ISBN 0495599115. Retrieved May 11, 2016. The term 'photographic memory' is more often used to describe a memory ability called eidetic imagery. Eidetic imagery occurs when a person has visual images clear enough to be 'scanned' or retained for at least 30 seconds. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)

7. The Encyclopedia of the Brain and Brain Disorders. Infobase Publishing. 2010. p. 128. ISBN 1438127030. Retrieved May 11, 2016. Most experts suspect that eidetic imagery is not a different kind of visual memory, but just a greater skill in the ability to form visual images that everyone possesses to some degree. While eidetic imagery is most likely the source of the concept of a photographic memory, there are differences in the two concepts. An eidetic image fades soon after one sees the original image and does not stay with a person over time. The image is subjective, and the details of greatest interest to the person are the ones most easily reproduced. Moreover, a person cannot form an eidetic image in one second, as a camera can snap a photo; several seconds are required to scan the picture. Once the picture has faded away, eidetic images cannot be retrieved. Those who can form eidetic images do not seem to be able to use their special ability to improve long-term memory. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)

8. Gordon, Barry (January 1, 2013). "Does Photographic Memory Exist?". Scientific American. Retrieved May 11, 2016. The intuitive notion of a 'photographic' memory is that it is just like a photograph: you can retrieve it from your memory at will and examine it in detail, zooming in on different parts. But a true photographic memory in this sense has never been proved to exist. Most of us do have a kind of photographic memory, in that most people's memory for visual material is much better and more detailed than our recall of most other kinds of material. For instance, most of us remember a face much more easily than the name associated with that face. But this isn't really a photographic memory; it just shows us the normal difference between types of memory.

9. Annette Kujawski Taylor (2013). Encyclopedia of Human Memory [3 volumes]. ABC-CLIO. p. 951. ISBN 144080026X. Retrieved May 10, 2016. Eidetic memory is sometimes called photographic memory because individuals who possess eidetic memory can reproduce information from memory in exactly the format in which it was provided during encoding.

10. Bennett L. Schwartz (2013). Memory: Foundations and Applications. Sage Publications. p. 172. ISBN 1483323269. Retrieved May 11, 2016. It is likely that those who claim to possess 'photographic memory' (or eidetic imagery, in technical terms) do have extraodinarily good visual imagery systems that allow them to form strong visual images of the material that they learn.

11. Biological Psychology. Learning Matters. 2014. p. 140. ISBN 0857256947. Retrieved May 11, 2016. Eidetic memory [...] This type of memory refers to occasions when people claim to be able to recall a very detailed visual image for a long period of time. This type of memory is commonly known as photographic memory and is very rare (with some researchers claiming that eidetic memories do not exist at all). {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)

12. Psychology: From Inquiry to Understanding. Pearson Higher Education. 2014. p. 353. ISBN 1486016405. Retrieved May 10, 2016. Iconic memory may help to explain the remarkable phenomenon of eidetic imagery, popularly called 'photographic memory'. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help)

13. Anthony Simola (2015). The Roving Mind: A Modern Approach to Cognitive Enhancement. ST Press. p. 117. ISBN 069240905X. Retrieved May 10, 2016. [...] Photographic memory or eidetic memory, as it is more accurately called. It refers to the ability to recall memories in vivid visual detail without the use of mnemonic techniques. Importantly though, eidetic memory differs from what is commonly thought to be photographic memory in the respect that eidetic memory literally refers to one's ability to view memories like photographs. In popular culture, photographic memory simply refers to the ability to recall items like pages of text or numbers in great detail without the visualization associated with eidetic memory. Sometimes found in children but rarely in adults, photographic memory has an aura of mystery to it, and to most people it sounds almost like a supernatural ability. The incredible claims surrounding eidetic memory arouse high emotions in the public, which remains predominantly skeptical of its existence.

14. S. Marc Breedlove (2015). Principles of Psychology. Oxford University Press. p. 353. ISBN 0199329362. Retrieved May 10, 2016. If a person had iconic memory that did not fade with time, he or she would have what is sometimes called photographic memory (also called eidetic memory), the ability to recall entire images with extreme detail.

Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:53, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:09, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This old signature is from my previous posting of this RfC. This is take 2. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:53, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I moved RFC to the bottom, where new sections go, otherwise it is inconvenient, attachig it to a thread started 8 years ago. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:18, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would also notice that the RFC topic is also raised in several other talk threads. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:18, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Staszek Lem, yeah, I thought about moving the RfC to the bottom, but I opted to keep it higher since that discussion, while started all those years ago, continued to present day. Anyway, thanks for weighing in below and for any help you can provide with the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment of Staszek Lem

  • (Answering RFC request) I agree that the RFC question deserves attention. I am not an expert in the subject (psychology of memory) and I don't believe I edited articles on the subject. Therefore here is my "unadulterated" opinion...
    • IMO the current article does not address the question in a satisfactory way.
    • The article claim that some state "the photographic memory does not exist" . However let me notice that the statement of existence of eidetic memory is basically not falsifiable either: it is impossible to verify whether the subject does recall with high precision; after all, what is "high"?
    • The latter point brings me to another one: I have an impression that eidetic memory is rather a person's perception of their own memory, and as such, it is documented.
    • In the same way, AFAIK there are documented cases that people can recall a page of text. I could to it myself, from my old pocket phonebook befor iphones :-) Of course I saw it vividly due to countless glancing at it, but it is not unreasonable to believe some can do it after 30 sec of staring.
    • The sources cited must be read carefully, because it seems they are talking about different things. This is especially problematic when you are trying to cite popscience articles, where even advanced scientists may be sloppy. For example "Sci Am" article cited that claims that "photographic memory does not exist". In fact says that absolute photomemory does not exist. But this is trivial: it is simply impossible to prove that it exists or not, as I explained above. Moreover the author himself says "Most of us do have a kind of photographic memory <bla bla>". Now, the question remains which "kind of photographic memory" is "true" photographic memory?
  • I can continue criticizing, but let me just repeat: the question does deserve clarification:
    • Definitions (possibly different and even mutually contradictory) must come from scholarly sources which specifically did research on the subject
    • Popscience refs (Slate, SciAm, etc.) must be used sparingly and with extreme careful reading what they say and how they argue. In this respect, sorry SciAm, big FAIL.
  • I don't have time now, but I would be interested to work on the improvement of this article. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:08, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I've called the popular science sourcing poor. I presented it above, though, because it's what the other editor argued with and it's currently used in the article. As seen, I also provided scholarly sources. But there is not as much research on this topic as one would hope for. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted Let99 yet again. Well, this piece was made by an IP. Not sure if that IP is Let99. I soon restored these two bits by Let99. But I must reiterate, Let99, that Wikipedia does not care for your assertions that "photographic memory doesn't exist." It cares about what the sources state, with WP:Due weight. I have provided a number of sources supporting my point that "that 'most of the sources [...] are clear that the terms are used interchangeably or that photographic memory and eidetic memory are the same topic, but that the term eidetic memory is more accurate; if they distinguish photographic memory and eidetic memory at all, it's only slightly. In other words, sources usually treat these topics side by side and as the same thing while other sources distinguish them or slightly distinguish them.'"
As for you adding "that is found in some children" to the lead, for the eidetic memory part, the sources are clear that eidetic memory is not only attributed to children; it overwhelmingly is, but not exclusively. So I don't think we should be limiting eidetic memory to children in the lead. Furthermore, the second paragraph of the lead already states, "Eidetic images occur in a small number of children and generally are not found in adults." If I need to start another WP:RfC on this terminology matter, I will. But I ask that you listen to what I stated above, and to what Staszek Lem argued above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:23, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That wasn't my edit. One of your last changes to my edits cites only a self-published book by some random person, not a credible source. Do you have any background in human memory? You are picking little, random snippets from books that aren't correct. Let99 (talk) 04:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer22 Reborn - Please read this article very closely, in particular this:

Photographic memory is often confused with another bizarre—but real—perceptual phenomenon called eidetic memory, which occurs in between 2 and 15 percent of children and very rarely in adults. An eidetic image is essentially a vivid afterimage that lingers in the mind's eye for up to a few minutes before fading away. Children with eidetic memory never have anything close to perfect recall, and they typically aren't able to visualize anything as detailed as a body of text. [emphasis added]

The two things are "confused" with each other, not "distinguished". If you are deeply familiar with human memory, you should know this. If you aren't then you shouldn't have such firm opinions about the page. Let99 (talk) 05:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since you object to my rewordings, I've inserted a direct quote into the article that explicitly says that they are two different things that are frequently confused with each other. That other self-published, self-help book is not a reliable source. Let99 (talk) 05:17, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let99 , I've reverted you again, per what has been argued by Staszek Lem and me above. Slate is a poor source for this topic, and does not take priority over the quality scholarly sources I listed above. You repeatedly stating that eidetic memory and photographic memory are two different things is at odds with a number of sources. You steadily repeating that they are two different things without providing any sources to back you up on that, except the Slate source or some other popular culture source, and then using that rationale to alter the article is WP:Disruptive. And you adding quotes from your nitpicked sources is a WP:Undue weight problem. As for WP:Self-published sources, this set of sources, from Cengage Learning, ABC-CLIO, Pearson Higher Education, and Oxford University Press are not WP:Self-published, and they disagree with your assertion that eidetic memory and photographic memory are two different things. If you were referring to the The Roving Mind: A Modern Approach to Cognitive Enhancement source, I don't see that it's self-published, but I did state of it above: "I'm not sure about that source; this is because I don't know the reliability of the publisher, and that author's credentials are lacking for this topic." However, I only added that source for a little piece of the wording, to go beside the Slate source, and the Slate source is not much better than the The Roving Mind: A Modern Approach to Cognitive Enhancement source. As for you suggesting that you have a background in human memory, you should be using much better sources than Slate then. I am repeating the WP:RfC I started above, by adding a fresh template to it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:44, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Montanabw

  • Distinguish: Clearly they are not identical and this article should make that clear, with citations to solid, WP:SCIRS sources. This situation reminds me of my pet peeve, the confusion of dissociative identity disorder (DID, and a severe variant is popularly known as "multiple personalities") with schizophrenia, which is not a "split personality". Similar sloppiness here. Montanabw(talk) 15:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Montanabw, thanks for weighing in. The article already distinguishes them (see the lead and the "Eidetic memory or photographic memory" section). What I object to is the article being strict in stating that photographic memory and eidetic memory are not the same thing. Like I noted above, "there are various sources stating that terms are used interchangeably or that photographic memory and eidetic memory are the same topic, but that the term eidetic memory is more accurate; if they distinguish photographic memory and eidetic memory at all, it's only slightly. In other words, sources usually treat these topics side by side and as the same thing while other sources distinguish them or slightly distinguish them."
I have not come across any good sources stating that they are not the same thing. And all the opposing editor has offered is the aforementioned Slate source for stating that they are not the same thing. WP:Verifiability is for presenting both sides, and with WP:Due weight. And that's what I've been doing in this case. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Other opinions?

The previous RfC on this was a bust (by that, I mean only one person weighed in, and the dispute continued afterward), and I don't want this one to be a bust as well. So pining Fieari, Pincrete, KateWishing, Legitimus, DrkBlueXG and Caeciliusinhorto for their opinions (if they have any) on this. They recently offered helpful comments in another terminological dispute. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:34, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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