Talk:Erik Prince

Grammar

There are many grammatical errors in this article. It seems to be below the normal standards not only for Wikipedia, but for English in general. Bad English seems to be a trend more and more prevalent. Is it a generational thing?

Philanthropy

This piece confuses personal philanthropy with the largess of the relatively small Edgar and Elsa Prince Foundation. Having reviewed the tax return there is no indication that Erik Prince has personally funded the foundation. In 2014 the largest grant made by the foundation was $815,000 to the SPLC-certified hate group, Family Research Council. David Cary Hart (talk) 13:54, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Family

Okay so I was reading the whole unfaithful to his wife thing and it just seems to be quoted by a book and of course anything else I can find on the internet just basically quotes the article, therefore I think it should be obviously removed due to the fact its just a claim in a source that no one but people who own the book can access, but I'll wait before I edit it because I already know as soon as I do it somebody is going to undo it. FreedomIsNotEvil (talk) 12:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Did you read the book and failed to see the referenced statement in the page number mentioned? Only that would be a reason to challenge it Zencv ^Whisper 21:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

• I still think this is questionable. One anonymous person makes an lurid accusation, an author says he was told this (shielding him from being responsible for the libel) and prints it. Now we repeat it. Something like this should be corroborated by other sources, not based on the say so of one person who can't even prove it. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

What matters is verifiability, not truth(well, it could well be truth as well as we don't know). If he had ever denied it and we have sources for that, we may include that as well..Removing a sourced statement is not the way to go.. Zencv ^Whisper 21:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

• • Well, keeping something contentious out, even though it was said in a "reliable" source isn't without precedent. Recently the issue came up in an AfD, where the subject was labelled as a member of organized crime. One news paper had stated it as fact, all the the rest said it was an allegation. Without his ties to organized crime, the man failed notability. The debate moved to the WP:RSN. You can see it here: [1]. As you can see, the end consensus was that while that paper is a "reliable source", but they were the only one stating it as fact and did so with no verifiable documentation, so calling him a member of organized crime was disallowed. This case parallels that one. You have a single source, stating something as fact, without any verifiable proof. Considering the number of people in the mainstream media that strongly dislike Prince and his company, don't you think more would jump on this bandwagon? Niteshift36 (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

• I have posted this to the BLPN. [2]. Removing the material until this is resolved per WP:GRAPEVINE. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

• Something like infidelity is always contentious, then if it had been referenced in a Biography or something similar, then that is worthy to be included however unflattering it is. As for the notability of his infidelity, Erik Prince is well known for his religiosity, so something that is hypocritical is interesting for the readers. Your example - I dont find any strong parallels to this. Other stuff exists will only make the case to include it stronger, as there are many BLPs in WP where subjects' infidelity is mentioned based on an interview in their biography Zencv ^Whisper 14:10, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

• How can you NOT see the parallel? In both cases, you have a single source, stating something as fact, with no other sources doing so. Other sources termed it an allegation. The other case had an even stronger argument in that they actually showed the source (ie court records), which doesn't happen in the Prince case. And, in the Prince case, nobody else is even calling it an allegation. This case has a weaker argument. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Fear of terrorist reprisals

"Some have claimed that this media-shyness is due to fear of terrorist reprisals for his role in creating Blackwater USA."

The article cited said nothing of the sort, so I deleted this sentence.--24.83.107.213 07:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually the article does say that, but at the top of the 2nd page.--Pleasantville 09:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it does not. It simply states "there are ongoing projects by terrorist groups to collect information on private contractors." Nowhere does it state that he fears terrorist reprisals, that any have been attempted, or that any such plans are in the works. I'm removing it once again.--24.83.107.213 02:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Born in 1209? Appeared on MTV Cribs? Purple cancer?? Funny, but might to time to protect from vandalism. 70.160.240.45 23:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the link to the Nation article cited b/c it deals primarily with Blackwater. Erik Prince is mentioned in the article in only one sentence.--Davidwiz 18:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The article actually has five pages, and Erik Prince is mentioned several times- especially on the last page, but I suppose the article doesn't specifically mention the allegations. I'll add more citations. johnpseudo 18:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, none of the lawsuits were filed against Eric Prince specifically, so they shouldn't be mentioned on this page. Furthermore, the link to the Huffington Post blog by Robert Greenwald is just Greenwald trying to peddle his film. --Davidwiz 17:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I have contacted an admin and asked him to put this page on his watch list. As someone who has been a public critic of Blackwater (under my real name, Kathryn Cramer) I feel a bit odd acting as Erik Prince's Wikipedia bodyguard against some fairly meanspirited vanadalism. (How low do you have to be to make fun the cause of someone's wife's death? Ick.) --Pleasantville 01:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC) aka Kathryn Cramer

His place of residence is listed as a "hotel in Abu Dhabi". So if he lived in Virginia would his place of residence be given as a "house in Virginia" or an "apartment in Virginia"?

Inclusion of family

Basic family information (married? kids?) is notable for any biography. Exclusion of this information, with the verifiable sources it has, would be quite conspicuous. Just look at any other biography. johnpseudo 16:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It's getting added in. • Lawrence Cohen 17:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Children: "6; 4 from his first marriage and 3 from his second" needs to be corrected in some fashion. Mycophile2 (talk) 02:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Better image

That one I found on defenselink.mil is alright, and free, and clearly him, but not great. We need to find an even better free image. • Lawrence Cohen 17:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

October 2007 Congressional Testimony

We should probably be collecting relevant quotes from reports of his congressional testimony.

(1) Prince declined to provide info about Blackwater's financials when asked for it in testimony. (Rise of the white-collar mercenary, Brian Dickerson, Detroit Free Press, October 3, 2007.)

CSPAN video of the quote on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbDmwsuyrKA&mode=user&search= --Pleasantville 18:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

(2) Quote explaining the lack of remedies the company has for misdeeds by its employees:

The Blackwater employee fled to a guard post, where he said he had been in a gunfight with Iraqis who were chasing him and shooting at him. But the guards had not heard any shots.

Mr Prince said the employee had been sacked and fined. Asked why he had been whisked out of Iraq within two days without being charged, Mr Prince said the company had no power to detain anyone. "We can't flog him, we can't incarcerate him," he said.

(Iraq security firm denies trigger-happy charge by Ewen MacAskill, The Guardian, October 3, 2007.) --Pleasantville 18:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

In the News nomination for main page

I've nominated these articles for In The News on the front page of Wikipedia, and it appears to have some support. • Lawrence Cohen 21:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Featured on Wikipedia ITN on front page, 10/3/07, expect some vandalism... • Lawrence Cohen 23:36, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Middle name

I think the middle initial stands for "Dale" which was also his father's middle name. Does anyone know if that is correct, and can we source it? --Pleasantville 21:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

cryptome.org says it stands for Dean, if you still want to add. http://eyeball-series.org/erik-prince/erik-prince.htm Zmbe (talk) 21:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Philanthropy & Donations section

It seems to me like this could be worded a little better. Everything it references isn't by defenition philanthropic per se, they're all fairly polarizing causes - Focus on Family, Republican campaigns et cetera. I don't want to jump in and do it immediately, I'm sure this article tends to be fairly contentious, and due to the nature of the edit I somebody new to the article making it would probably be construed as vandalism by some. A bit of preemptive discussion would probably be useful. - Mbruno42 17:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Christian Freedom International is probably viewable as legitimate philanthropy; they claim to help those in need. Focus on the family, etc., certainly are not as they are political advocacy groups. I renamed the section, if that helps. • Lawrence Cohen 17:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The new title works for me. --Pleasantville 17:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with it as well. --Mbruno42 18:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The new title is good. NB, though: most of Focus on the Family's work is not political advocacy, even that gets most of the public profile. --143.58.160.62 (talk) 01:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The section is somewhat misleading. Erik Prince isn't known as a philanthropist, yet this section is listed before his more notable sections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.86.54.182 (talk) 01:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Prince & the Grand Rapids Press

Erik Prince apparently wrote an article for the Grand Rapids Press quoted here: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/23/1429259 Can we find the source for this?

Also Talking Points Memo has a press quote from 22 year-old Erik Prince to the Grand Rapids Press here: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/054744.php

The then-22 year old Prince told the Grand Rapids Press, "I interned with the Bush administration for six months. I saw a lot of things I didn't agree with -- homosexual groups being invited in, the budget agreement, the Clean Air Act, those kind of bills. I think the administration has been indifferent to a lot of conservative concerns."

Can we find the citation for this? --Pleasantville 18:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Picture

That picture is horrible...he testified in Congress and nobody has a better one? --Josiah Bartlet, President of the United States 20:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

No free one yet, that I've seen. I've Googled around .gov and .mil sites but with no luck as of yet. • Lawrence Cohen 20:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

blurry pic should be removed--Djgranados 03:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This guy is a shadow. Nobody has a better photo? hexbase 0:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC -3)

It's amazing how all these companies were founded by such wealthy people. you know the media story about Michael dell is bullshit too. michael dell's family was quite well off too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.240.203.254 (talk) 06:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

here is a pic of him testifying before congress, hosted by cryptome. i think it's possibly AP but i'm not sure of it's origin. since cryptome is using it, it's probably fair game, but hopefully someone else knows for sure? http://eyeball-series.org/blackwater/erik-prince-07-1002.jpg Zmbe (talk) 22:01, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The picture should be removed - it is no longer the cropped version of the phooto from the hearing as the description says. I assume it is from cryptome, but that link doenst work anylonger either... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.117.121.92 (talk) 18:40, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Charlie Rose and 60 Minutes interviews

Anyone seen these? • Lawrence Cohen 13:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Robert Young Pelton has been posting transcript excerpt to the PMC list. --Pleasantville 14:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

PMC? • Lawrence Cohen 15:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yahoo Private Military Company discussion list administered by IPOA organizer Doug Brooks. Email me at kathryn.cramer@gmail.com and I can send you copies. --Pleasantville 15:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

He mentions there that he is of Dutch heritage, i added that to the article 76.217.46.100 22:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Photo request

Does anyone have access to a good "free" photo of Prince, that would not need be copyrighted? The free one I found from a US Military source is passably acceptable, but it is hardly the best image. • Lawrence Cohen 19:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Defamatory Edwards Quote

The quote by John Edwards is defamatory and seems to violates Wikipedia's rules for bios of living persons. Even if it is not defamatory, the quote serves no purpose other than to promote Edwards' viewpoint and would thus seem to violate NPOV.--Davidwiz (talk) 20:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That's nonsense. The sentence you removed stated:

Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards has characterized Prince as one of George W. Bush's "political cronies."

WP:BLP says:

The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics...

John Edwards is a very notable figure, and Prince's and Blackwater's connections to the Bush administration are central to the reasons why both have become the centers of public discussion; the AP article in which Edwards is quoted is a classic reliable source; the tone of the sentence is a neutral and factual report of Edwards' statement; the sentence is very short relative to the article and certainly does not represent disproportionate space for a minority view. I am restoring the quote.

Kalkin (talk) 00:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

It is one thing to add an opposing viewpoint, it is another thing entirely to repost a defamatory statement. Calling someone a "political crony" is defamatory. Whether the quote is accurate or if the person who said it is "notable" isn't relevant.--Davidwiz (talk) 18:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Crap. For one thing, if a statement is true, it's not defamatory, by definition. But more relevantly, it's not Wikipedia's place to decide whether or not it's true, or defamatory. The Wikipedia criterion of inclusion is notability and reliable sourcing, not truth, and certainly not whether a comment is mean. Kalkin (talk) 19:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

In the United States, "defamatory" statements include true statements. So you are wrong, "by definition". I'm wearing panties and I know more than you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.65.143 (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

From United States defamation law: "Truth is currently almost always a defense.". Fribbler (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This entire article reads like a hatchet job and is going to be one more indictment in the inevitable class action lawsuit brought by the thousands of people slandered by Wikipedia. Most of whom of course are Republicans, Conservatives or others deemed to have inappropriate thoughts not approved by Liberals.131.247.83.135 (talk) 14:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Spy?

I just read an article that indicates that he is a spy, and came here for more info, and was surprised there was no mention. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2010/01/blackwater-201001 http://rawstory.com/2009/12/blackwaters-prince-cia-role/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jepace (talk • contribs) 17:44, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Catholic conversion?

Anyone know anything about his rumoured conversion to Catholicism? WjtWeston (talk) 15:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Crusader?

The two declarations are each five pages long and contain a series of devastating allegations concerning Erik Prince and his network of companies, which now operate under the banner of Xe Services LLC. Among those leveled by Doe #2 is that Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe":

To that end, Mr. Prince intentionally deployed to Iraq certain men who shared his vision of Christian supremacy, knowing and wanting these men to take every available opportunity to murder Iraqis. Many of these men used call signs based on the Knights of the Templar, the warriors who fought the Crusades.

Mr. Prince operated his companies in a manner that encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life. For example, Mr. Prince's executives would openly speak about going over to Iraq to "lay Hajiis out on cardboard." Going to Iraq to shoot and kill Iraqis was viewed as a sport or game. Mr. Prince's employees openly and consistently used racist and derogatory terms for Iraqis and other Arabs, such as "ragheads" or "hajiis." http://www.thenation.com/article/blackwater-founder-implicated-murder

I think this is an important side of his personality that must be referred to in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.192.110.224 (talk) 03:05, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

You mean the "declarations" made by anonymous people in a lawsuit that has since been dismissed? Not unless the re-wrote WP:BLP when nobody was looking. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#People_accused_of_crime, it suggests in no way that accusations of a crime are not notable. Am I confused? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.127.137.147 (talk) 19:58, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• You have allegations made by 2 former employees (likely a bit disgruntled) who couldn't substantiate them. The suit was dismissed for a reason.... it was unsubstantiated. BLP requires caution. Including this is the opposite. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

How do you know the employees are "a bit disgruntled?" Regardless, I would imagine something that is printed in, say, The Economist, or The Nation, or similar, might be noteworthy enough to print in Wikipedia, with, of course, appropriate sourcing and caveats (i.e. that it is anonymous, made under oath in federal court, etc). BLP appears to suggest that accusations of a crime are notable, like I said. Can you point to the part of BLP which says accusations of a crime should not be noted unless there is a conviction? I note that the article on OJ Simpson notes that he was accused of murder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.127.137.147 (talk) 22:28, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• I don't know it, that's why I said "likely" disgruntled. Reliable sources print the news. We don't print the news. As WP:NOTNEWS points out, many newsworthy events aren't notable. While an accusation of a crime may be notable, you're missing a couple of things. First, he wasn't charged with a crime. A criminal charge would actually require an evidentiary status be met. This was a lawsuit, which can be filed by anyone with the filing fee. When it was reviewed by a judge, it was dismissed. The second thing, since you want to talk about what BLP says, it does caution us: "Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured." Prudence would say adding the material into a BLP would need similar consideration. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:45, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

An allegation requires no evidence. A dismissed allegation is a non-event. Someone could allege that (e.g.) Clinton stole their M&Ms, and file suit. A judge dismissing the suit is ruling that the suit has no chance in his court. Dismissed allegations are not significant. Tarl N. (discuss) 23:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with both Niteshift36 and Tari. Under their standard, we wouldn't be able to include unproven accusations that still receive major press coverage. It doesn't matter whether a lawsuit is settled. What matters is that the accused was a public figure and that the accusations received substantial news coverage. The requirement is a reflection of the fact that few respected news outlets will report on weak allegations, especially those made against private individuals. If the OP cannot find multiple independent reliable sources covering these allegations, then the material should be excluded. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:30, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE. A dismissed lawsuit is a non-event. If it were notable for some other reason, it might be worth mentioning. But there mere fact of filing a lawsuit which a judge dismissed is irrelevant. Tarl N. (discuss) 23:57, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing in WP:UNDUE about excluding subject matter. Let's see what the OP comes up with in terms of reliable sources before we engage in what might be a needless dispute. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:21, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion. (This is the anonymous IP, by the way. I created an account. Yay.)

A few points:

1. I believe the focus on the lawsuit being dismissed is a little bit misleading, or at least over-general. Lawsuits can be dismissed for a number of procedural reasons (standing, jurisdiction) which don't have a bearing on the quality of the evidence. A more specific rule that Niteshift36 might suggest is that "if a lawsuit is dismissed due to lack of evidence, it is not noteworthy." Yet even that is a bit fraught: for example, the Justice Department case against the five Blackwater guards was thrown out because there was no _admissible_ evidence; the lawsuit (and that it was thrown out) is patently noteworthy.

2. The lawsuit itself may (of course) be noteworthy even if the claims of the plaintiff appear to be false or unsubstantiated. As DrFleischman says, substantial news coverage may make something noteworthy. In this case, I edited this page and the Academi page after being quite startled that a high-profile accusation was not noted anywhere here; I was clearly not alone in wondering about this, since the question was previously floated on this Talk page.

Now, specific to this case:

1. As I said, the accusations were made under oath ("in sworn statements filed on August 3 in federal court in Virginia"). I think that makes them a bit more noteworthy.

2. The allegations of weapons smuggling were separately both investigated by a federal grand jury and asserted to credible news organizations by Blackwater employees . This is noted in a single sentence on the Academi page but, again, seems to make these statements more noteworthy, since they are additional evidence relating to an already-noteworthy allegation.

3. The allegations were themselves fairly widely reported, sufficiently to assert that credible news organizations felt they were noteworthy (The Economist, The Nation, Mother Jones, and Al Jazeera.) The fact that this was widely reported also seems to make it noteworthy; Academi and Prince are themselves known in part for the fact that they were (falsely or accurately) accused of these acts.

References

Given that, I think the allegations are noteworthy on their own right, regardless of their veracity. But since the allegations also dovetail with other federal investigations and other documented (publicly and here) allegations against Academi and Prince, they seem noteworthy in that context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foijsdf (talk • contribs) 15:15, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• 1: I actually didn't say that, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't put it in quotes and present it as if I did. Second, you're mixing cases. In the Justice Department case (which is in another article, not a BLP), the judge threw out criminal charges, which are different than a civil suit. In addition, those employees had been indicted, meaning that a grand jury had agreed there was sufficient evidence to bring the matter to trial. Merely filing a civil suit doesn't have that happening.
• 2: This wasn't that high profile. It got coverage in the short term and then disappeared from the news cycle. In addition, as previously noted, this was based on 2 anonymous former employees.
• 1a: They were made "under oath" and that makes them more notable? Not really. Perjury, which is lying under oath, is a misdemeanor crime, on roughly the same level as stealing a pair of shoes. Let's not act like a) people don't lie under oath and b) that the legal system makes it a huge deal. The fact is, they made the allegations (anonymously) and were never challenged or cross-examined.
• 2a: What evidence shows Prince was personally involved in these alleged acts?
• 3a Being "widely reported" doesn't mean they go into a BLP. WP:NOTNEWS reminds us that most newsworthy events aren't notable, probably not bad guidance here. Literally hundreds of news sources reported that Scott Disick was photographed with models this past weekend in Miami. That probably doesn't go in his BLP either. I found about 40 sources that talk about Bill Nye being at Fashion Week..... Niteshift36 (talk) 15:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

1. I did not present it as if you said that. I said you "might" say that. As in, a hypothetical argument you might make that I think is somewhat reasonable goes as follows. I'm sorry that was not more clear. 2. *shrug* "High profile" is an unresolvable argument. Like I said, I'm not the only one to have wondered why this was not mentioned on the page, but that may not mean much. It's a wide world.

For what it's worth, your examples of non-BLP-worthy news are poor: these are not the kinds of news which are featured in, say, The Economist. That's not to say everything in The Economist is newsworthy, but you are drawing a false analogy here.

That said, you've spent literally years of your life maintaining this dude's bio page, so more power to you. As I said, I hope you are doing it on more than a volunteer basis--I wouldn't personally spend so much effort on something so unremunerative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foijsdf (talk • contribs) 17:44, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• 1: Except that was not my position at all.
• 2: The lack of continuing coverage is a good indicator.
• No, my example isn't poor. The Bill Nye thing was covered by Time Magazine and ABC news, among others. Whether you hold People Magazine in the same esteem as the Economist is irrelevant, both are reliable sources. Further, you keep implying that "newsworthy" means that it's automatically included. That's simply false.

As for your ridiculous statement that I've "spent literally years"..... Well, no. I haven't. I haven't even spent days editing this page. Accumulated time spent on it is probably a few hours, spread over the course of years. So, learn what "literally" actually means and try some better math. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:05, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Can we please tone down the overt and backhanded personal attacks, both of you? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• I haven't make a personal attack. Calling a ridiculous statement "ridiculous" isn't a personal attack. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:14, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

How about just calling it wrong? No matter, let's move on, shall we? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:29, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• Procedural comment: We really ought to consolidate this discussion with Talk:Academi#No mention of lawsuits, since they cover the same subject matter, arguments, and participants and it's getting difficult to shuttle back and forth between the two. Foijsdf, since you're the "provocateur" so to speak, would you care to choose where we try to resolve this? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:14, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• No. What is relevant to the history of the company and what is relevant to the BLP are not the same thing. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Do I sense stonewalling? Let's work together. I'm frustrated by the fact that we're having redundant discussions that are difficult to manage. How can we mitigate this? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• No, your bad faith sense of stonewalling is off base. What may be relevant to the history of the company is not the same things relevant for the BLP. The BLP is about an individual and they need a more direct connection to something. For example, George W. Bush was president during the Iraq War, but everything that happened during the war isn't relevant to his biography. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:34, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I think the argument is more compelling that the lawsuit should be mentioned in the Academi page, not here, so I'm happy to continue the discussion there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foijsdf (talk • contribs) 18:35, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Biased photo

Hi all. I don't know about that photo. It strikes me as a bit, ummm... shall we say, biased? He looks like a doofus! Heinleinscat (talk) 12:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Head of new Mercenary Force in UAE and his role

This is front page news on NYTimes. Link here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/world/middleeast/15prince.html?ref=global-home&pagewanted=all. Probably need to update this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.100.216.105 (talk) 10:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Myths and Rumors section

Should we have a section that contains only one piece of information from a group linked with Al Qaeda? Tommyboy1215 (talk) 14:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

excuse me, the Taliban Tommyboy1215 (talk) 14:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

• The source calls it far-fetched. It is a passing mention by the source. There is nothing indicating that it has any bearing on Prince personally. This is his bio, not a respository for rumors about the company. I removed it per WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP and WP:FRINGE. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Where does the source call it far-fetched? I can't find it. JamesChambers666 (talk) 07:35, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Right where it talks about the rumor. "So infamous is the Blackwater brand that even the Taliban have floated far-fetched conspiracy theories, accusing the company of engaging in suicide bombings in Pakistan" I have removed it again. It does not belong in a BLP. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:54, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget the sex rings, very important.67.190.86.13 (talk) 20:47, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

College Degree

The article lists his degree as "Austrian Economics" however, Hillsdale does not offer this degree (http://www.hillsdale.edu/academics/majors.asp). They do offer one year long course in Austrian economics within the broader econ major. (http://www.hillsdale.edu/academics/majors/eba/economics/courses.asp) Although it is possible that this has changed since the time Mr. Prince attended, I am not aware of any schools in the United States that offer degrees encompassing only one school of economic thought. This is neither feasible nor practical given the availability of texts and faculty, particularly with a heterodox school such as Austrian.

Austrian economics has become a podium for many who have begun to identify themselves as "libertarian" (see Ron Paul) and it is likely that this is used here to boost the credibility of Mr. Prince's identification as libertarian later in the article.

I hesitate to put a "citation needed" in the article, because a proper citation would need to be either his transcript or diploma which are obviously not available. However, unless Hillsdale was able to assemble an entire faculty of Austrian economics devotees for only four years, granted only one degree, and was able to conceal the existence of this program from the general public completely, it is safe to say that it is impossible for Mr. Prince to have a degree in "Austrian Economics." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.187.187 (talk) 09:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

No mention of murder allegations?

Who is editing this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.217.204 (talk) 16:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Many of us edit it. If you have a reliable reference ( see WP:RS ), provide it and either edit the article or ask someone else to do so. Generally, unsubstantiated allegations don't go into biographies of living persons (see WP:BLP ). Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 22:14, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/08/erik_prince_and_the_last_crusa is surely a reliable source for the presence of such accusations. The fact that an article on Erik Prince does not mention the presence shocking *claim* that he intentionally murdered Muslims in Iraq is rather surprising to me. This was all over the news when it happened. It seems a bit like omitting OJ Simpons' alleged engaging in murder, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.127.137.147 (talk) 19:38, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Affair

While it may be proper to include sourced information about Prince's affair, including three extensive and pulled-out blockquotes about it places massively undue weight on that part of his life. I have removed it all, pending a neutral, balanced and properly-weighted rewrite. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:00, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

According to his own "autobiography, Civilian Warriors apparently written by Robert Young Pelton and Davin Coburn, Prince married and divorced his nanny but then had another affair with the wife of Blackwater's legal counsel while he was married to the nanny. According to the book Prince is now engaged to the wife of the legal counsel and divorced the nanny.

But the constant removal of well publicized personal details multiple times on this page shows that better scrutiny needs to be shown to who is actually grooming it. For example reviewing past iterations of the page shows much more accurate and comprehensive information than the current locked form.

I think anything that is published in Pelton's and Coburn's book which was fact checked by Penguin and approved by Prince would be considered valid for a wikipedia cite or content. Especially on a page that appears to have a history of being excessively groomed by Prince's PR people and business associates like Adam Ciralsky (Illegitimate Barrister) who is a business partner of Prince. There are also excessive posts be Niteshift36. and Hamiltonian25, Just compare earlier versions of this page with the latest and the removal of of congressional investigations, lawsuits, government fines, lawsuits, criminal accusations and other controversies. All covered in his book but missing from what is supposed to be an accurate document. Much of linkage to Scahill's research and concerns to his excellent, but critical book on Blackwater have been carefully removed by these paid Wiki groomers. And much of Prince's CIA work, carefully detailed in his own interviews documented by Pelton, Ciralksy and Scahill is also gone - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BC21:E039:193C:CF22:15E:8E8B (talk) 13:57, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

(Indented above to set off from previous comment)

You're free to investigate me, I'm the one who asked for a neutral party from the WP:BLP noticeboard to look at the changes. Unlike you, I use my real name and do not hide behind an anonymous IP address. I assure you I have no connection with either the authors of the biographies or the subject of this article. The tone of the additions was venomous, it was clear that the person introducing it was putting it there to defame the subject of the article. After the addition, half the article was about that affair - that would be comparable to finding half the biography of Clinton being about the clinical details of his affair with Monica Lewinsky. That there was an affair isn't debated, the question is how much emphasis it receives. Please read the policies at WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP. In particular, the fact that something is documentable does not mean it must go into an article. The reason for an article about Erik Prince is his founding of Blackwater, the article should primarily focus on that. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 16:57, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The information seems to be sufficiently sourced. There was a concern raised by another editor, one that hadn't occurred to me, that the information as sourced here might not pass the threshold for inclusion based on the insinuations made against other parties involved, i.e. the second wife, as the source is Prince himself. My concern about it's prior inclusion was the undue weight given to what is essentially a tabloid topic on the fringe of the subject's notability. I know there are a lot of people who are in a rush to cast Prince in as poor of a light as possible for reasons that have nothing to do with creating an encyclopedic article so we should be diligent in keeping this article from turning into a coat rack for people looking to score political points against the subject. GraniteSand (talk) 19:30, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The need for a "controversy" section

The fact that a great deal of "controversy" has seemed to swirl around Mr. Prince does not necessarily reflect well or poorly on Mr. Prince himself. It is simply a fact. Mr. Prince has been one of the "more controversial figures" associated with the Iraq war, and I think that this observation is fairly broadly accepted as fact. The way that this article is currently written, it seems to be in a "state of denial" that any major controversy was ever associated with Mr. Prince. In fact, it begins to appear as if this article may have been written by Mr. Prince himself, or by one of his employees. It seems to have almost been censored. I would like to try to write a "controversy" section about Mr. Prince's involvement with Blackwater. It is my hope that this section will not be deleted, and the article reverted to its current "apparently whitewashed" format. Comments? Scott P. (talk) 11:51, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

• First off, I'll try to assume good faith, but if you read what you just wrote objectively, it sounds like you have an agenda to make Prince look bad. To your point: 1) Just having a controversy section, for the sake of having one, is generally not the way we do biographies. Anything entered must be notable enough to merit mentioning so we don't run into a NPOV issue. 2) Some of the things you are referring may possibly be notable enough and are documented enough. However, the unsubstantiated rumor you insist on trying to force into here isn't one of them. You keep trying to insert an unsubstantiated rumor about an affair. The allegation is sketchy and of little value to the article. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:23, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

• Please note Night-shift, I believe you must be mistaking me for somebody else. I do not feel that affairs normally belong in bios in Wikipedia. I believe/ hope that you may find that I will be putting things into the controversy section that are as you say, "notable enough and are documented enough". By the way, thank you for keeping the "affairs" out. Scott P. (talk) 23:11, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

• you're correct, I was lumping you in with the one putting an affair in. My apologies. As for the matter at hand, again, saying "The fact that Prince's company and the many political issues that surrounded it, was a significant factor in the formulation of current US policy for Iraq..." reveals a lot. First, in many cases, what Prince personally did and what his company did are not the same thing. Second, this sounds like a COATRACK and perhaps a little SYNTH. Let's look at what you put in the article. 2 disgruntled employees said Prince MAY have been involved in crimes. They didn't even say he WAS, just that me may have been. 3 years later, no charges have been filed and the matter appears to be gone. No, Prince isn't a saint, but why exactly would we put a "maybe" allegation that looks like it never went past the allegation stage into the article? That sounds like a BLP issue. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:06, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

• I apologize if what I discuss with you here in the talk pages, may not yet be fully refined and ready for publication on the article pages. Also I agree with the recent removal of the reference to the two "anonymous whistleblower" accounts. Still, it seems to me that some of the accounts of some of the controversies that Blackwater became involved in while Prince was at it's helm "should" be referenced here. When one is at the helm of a company and that company becomes embroiled in major controversy, there is seldom a good reason why such a controversy cannot be listed on that person's bio, so long as the references used are properly made and accurate. The saying, "the buck stops here", usually applies equally in politics and business.

Still, I see what you have been doing for this article has been generally good. There seems to be a great deal of "over-the-top" negativity pointed towards Prince, which he clearly does not deserve, and I commend you for your diligence in trying to keep this article from becoming a "dumping ground" for such negativity. Scott P. (talk) 14:50, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

The key point to keep in mind, this is the biography of a living, breathing (and suing) person. Standards are much tighter for such articles, see WP:BLP. Note the use of strictly when it talks about applicable laws and ability to source statements. Basically, if it's something that might be considered defamatory, don't even think of adding it unless you can back it up with sources that are so reliable no lawyer can argue them in court. You won't be sued, but Wikipedia might be - and that could cost the very existence of Wikipedia. So we self-police. A section on "controversies" does not belong in a BLP article almost by definition - if it's contentious, its lawsuit bait. Don't add such material until it's so solid it's beyond controversial. See WP:BLP#Public figures, and the requirement for multiple third-party sources. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 02:21, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Use of the term "mercenary"

There have been repeated efforts over the years to change the lede to describe Prince as a mercenary. The term is pejorative, used as a fancy way of saying "scumbag", regardless of the actual applicability. The usage lies somewhere between Code word (figure of speech) and Dog whistle (politics).

The dictionary definitions of mercenary as a noun include:

• one who serves merely for wages
• a soldier hired into foreign service

The term was used during the Vietnam war to describe all U.S. servicemen (after all, they were getting paid, weren't they? So what if they were drafted), which has left some remnant sensitivity as a term of disparagement applied to individuals because of disagreements with their superiors.

In the case of Prince, he served in the U.S. military, and later created the Blackwater company which did indeed employ people who would meet the dictionary definition of mercenary (foreign origin and/or serving in combat merely for wages). I'm fairly sure he personally never carried a rifle merely for wages (he's always been wealthy, so that's unlikely), or hired into a foreign service. So the dictionary definition doesn't apply, what's left is the pejorative context and dog whistle. Do please keep in mind this is a WP:BLP, and lawsuit avoidance should be kept in mind - Wikipedia has better things to do with its resources than defending itself in court. Tarl N. (discuss) 17:10, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• Agreed. FWIW, the source being cited doesn't actually call him a mercenary either. It says he's the CEO of a mercenary firm. Being the CEO of a hospital doesn't make you a doctor. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I also agree. The term "mercenary" is derogatory and should not be used to describe an individual, especially on a BLP. Meatsgains (talk) 22:34, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

"Government services and security company" is a euphemism for mercenary company. It certainly doesn't mean "scumbag", because it *isn't* derogatory. Calling someone a scumbag is derogatory. Calling someone an asshole is derogatory. Using a clear, descriptive term most certainly isn't. If you hate clowns, that doesn't mean we should rename Bozo the Clown to Bozo the comic entertainer. 84.241.207.139 (talk) 17:28, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

• I don't agree with how the term "homophobia" is used when someone merely opposes a proposed law, but I don't get to govern the language myself. And since the company does more than "mercenary" work, the current version makes sense. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:33, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

No, "Government services and security company" is not a euphemism since it provides factual information. I'm not aware of many mainstream reliable sources calling Prince a mercenary. If we're going to call the guy a mercenary then we might as well call him a notorious mercenary. Ain't gonna happen. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:55, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

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BLP accusations.

@68.33.73.37: Accusations of "having Islamophobic, Christian supremacist, anti-Arab, and other racist views" had better be supported by damn good sources. All of them. The Econimist cites an affadavit leveling one of those, Christian supremacist, but the article does not directly subscribe to that view. Hence a poor source and WP:BLP is in full effect. Kleuske (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Philanthropist

Does it make sense to call Prince a philanthropist in the first sentence of his biography? It doesn't appear so. I'm not aware of any reliable sources describing him as such. Allegedly (without verification) he's VP of a family foundation; there's no indication that he himself plays any active role in the foundation. Moreover, even if he's engaged in a bit of philanthropy, it doesn't seem like a particularly significant part of his biography. Many famous people have been much more involved in philanthropy and aren't labeled as "philanthropists" in their articles. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 03:41, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

At a glance, it does seem like an undue emphasis. El_C 04:13, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I'd guess it originates from what would be his own self-description: here (These kinds of bios are usually written mostly from the subjects own words). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarl N. (talk • contribs) 03:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• We have a section called "Charitable work". If his work with charity is significant enough for a section, then it is most likely ok to call him a philanthropist. If it it's so insignificant, then the section is probably UNDUE as well. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:12, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that the "Charitable work" section is indeed undue. But I strongly disagree that the existence of a "Charitable work" section would justify describing the guy as a philanthropist in the first sentence of his biography. The standards are completely different. A bit of non-trivial, encyclopedic detail about his charitable work would justify content in the article body. But the lead section is for only the most important aspects of his biography, and the first sentence is only for what he's best known for. There's no evidence Prince is known for a handful of donations he's made over the years.

• Your initial claim was that sources don't call it philanthropy. We've shown sources that do. True, some people do give money and don't get called a philanthropists, but probably fewer actually sit on the board of a big philanthropic org. The book source I added devotes a couple of paragraphs toward talking about his giving and how it hooks him into relationships with people. The more I look at it, the less I think the section is UNDUE (notice how I can reference the UNDUE without yet another wikilink?). Niteshift36 (talk) 22:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• One of the sources already cited in this article talks about his philanthropy (and how it has been used by him) [3]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niteshift36 (talk • contribs) 07:29, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect. All that source says is that he donated to the Council for National Policy. Not philanthropy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:55, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, are you reading the same source I am? Page 80: "He gave generously to several Michigan churches, including $50,000 to Holy Family Oratory, a Kalamazoo Catholic Church, and $100,000 to St. Isidore Catholic Church and school in Grand Rapids, as well as Catholic churches in Virginia." That alone is sufficient. But that's not all it says: "But Erik Prince's philanthropy has certainly not been limited to Catholic causes." Page 81: "Erik Prince's philanthropy and politics...." How can you sit there and claim that the source doesn't say philanthropy? It says it twice in 2 pages and gives examples apart from the CNP. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

You are again mistaken. The "Prince" in the page 80 quote is Edgar Prince, Erik's father, not Erik. The references to Erik Prince's "philanthropy" don't verify that Prince is a "philanthropist"; nor does the source verify that Erik made any donations to groups other than the Council for National Policy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Nope. Read 79: "Erik adopted his father's behind-the-scenes demeanor...." Later on 79: "Taking a cue from his father's funding....". It's not about Edgar, it's about Erik. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:33, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't have access to page 79. Could you please provide the full quotes you're relying on? Or is it just that language? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:40, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Wait....are you questioning my reading comprehension or my honesty? I have added it to the article. I am recounting it accurately. Why now do you expect me to type half a page of text for you? This is starting to look like something more than just trying to make sure this is sourced correctly. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:21, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm asking for you to provide the source text that you say verifies the content. Obviously adopting a demeanor doesn't support a sentence about someone's charitable donations. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:17, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• I've provided you with the source. The "adopting demeanor" quote was to refute your incorrect claim that it was talking about his father, not Erik. The context of my response should make that clear. Again, the source has already been provided. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:16, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

The source is pretty explicit that the "he" in the quote you provided is referring to Edgar Prince, not Erik Prince. Do you disagree? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:52, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Christian and Islamic causes

Niteshift36 asserts that this Vanity Fair source supports this sentence in the "Charitable work" subsection:

Prince has donated to both Christian and Islamic causes, including support of a Muslim orphanage in Afghanistan.

This does not appear to be correct. The source content says:

He has been branded a 'Christian supremacist' who sanctions the murder of Iraqi civilians, yet he has built mosques at his overseas bases and supports a Muslim orphanage in Afghanistan. He and his family have long backed conservative causes, funded right-wing political candidates, and befriended evangelicals, but he calls himself a libertarian and is a practicing Roman Catholic.

The source does not say that he has donated any money for any Christian or Muslim cause, nor does it say that he built any mosques for philanthropic purposes. (For all we know he probably built the mosque for his Muslim employees.) This sentence must be removed per our BLP policy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Per BLP? What part of BLP? First, I removed the part about the mosques because it says it was on his bases, so it may very well have been for his employees. That doesn't make it no philanthropic, but I decided not to argue it. Yet here we are, you arguing about it anyway, even though it isn't in the article. The book source above confirms the Christian causes. You can insert it into this sentence if you like. Further, when it is talking about "backed conservative causes", "funded" candidates and "befriended evangelicals", what do you suppose "befriended" means? That he brought a tray of cookies? Niteshift36 (talk) 22:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

The part of BLP that says that all BLPs must comply with our verifiability policy and that "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source." I don't understand the rest of your comment. Where does the source say Prince donated to Christian causes? Where does it say he donated to Islamic causes? Where does it say he donated in support of Muslim orphanage in Afghanistan? Or are you referring to the source material as "close enough"? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:33, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Do you know why you don't understand? Because you haven't bothered to look at the second source that was added, listing Christian charities, listing some specific churches. Even some that the source called "fringe". It says he "supports a Muslim orphanage. What exactly do you think that means, another tray of cookies? That's not SYNTH, that's simple reading without a bias. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it's because you're not explaining yourself fully. I don't have access to as much of that book source as you do. What specific charities and churches does it list, and on what pages? Where does it refer to the Muslim orphanage? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I quoted you several churches already. I've told you the pages already. The Vanity fair source talks about the orphanage. That's why BOTH sources are at the end of the sentence. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not following. You say the second source lists specific churches. I have limited access to the source and couldn't find any reference to donations by Erik Prince to any churches. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:18, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

"He gave generously to several Michigan churches, including $50,000 to Holy Family Oratory, a Kalamazoo Catholic Church, and $100,000 to St. Isidore Catholic Church and school in Grand Rapids, as well as Catholic churches in Virginia." That alone is sufficient. But that's not all it says: "But Erik Prince's philanthropy has certainly not been limited to Catholic causes." It lists 2 by name, says "churches" plural in addition to those two and then says "causes" plural. I've quoted this to you already. I've provided the quote, provided the source..... your lack of access doesn't negate or diminish the source. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Wow. You really are not listening. I already pointed out that that quote was about Edgar Prince, not Erik Prince. So all we have is some vague reference to Catholic causes that appears to be referring to his father's donations. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:49, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Prince Foundation

I verified that Erik Prince is a VP of the Prince Foundation. However our current description of the foundation's donations is inappropriately cherry-picked. Most of the sources discussing the organization talk about its donations to political groups like Focus on the Family and Family Research Council. I've tagged this as POV and will add more representative content. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• How, specifically, is it cherry-picked? Niteshift36 (talk) 22:19, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

In the way that I described. Our article talks about a school, but the secondary sources (and our article on the foundation) talk about other types of donations. Based on the secondary sources the foundation seems to have a strong politically conservative preference, but you wouldn't know it from this article. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:35, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Since the article here is about the man, not the foundation, how relevant is the political preference of the org? And why wouldn't a $10 million donation be more noteworthy than a $500k one? Niteshift36 (talk) 22:39, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Well we have at least $10 million donated to conservative political causes between the two organizations I mentioned. And when you search for the foundation, those are what comes up. I'm not proposing removing the school, just adding the other stuff. Or perhaps we should remove the school. I'm fine either way, I just want content that complies with our neutrality policy. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:46, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Are you claiming that you have donations totaling $10 million to Focus on the Family and FRC? Niteshift36 (talk) 02:25, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. Me personally? We're talking about the Prince Foundation's donations. Yes, the Prince Foundation donated $10 million to Focus on the Family and FRC, no? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:20, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• What source says there was a $10 million donation for those two? Niteshift36 (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Here are some sources: [4], [5], [6]. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:44, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Charitable donations

The question is whether the following sentence is verifiable and should be included in the "Charitable work" subsection of this BLP: Prince has donated to both Christian and Islamic causes, including support of a Muslim orphanage in Afghanistan. The proposed sources are:

• Ciralsky, Adam. "January 2010: Adam Ciralsky on Blackwater". Vanity Fair. Retrieved August 25, 2013.
• Scahill, Jeremy (2007). Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army. Nation Books. pp. 79–81. ISBN 978 1 84668 652 8.

--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:59, 28 March 2017 (UTC)