Talk:Gaza War (2008–2009)

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Pro-Israel bias in images of destruction

This is biased. Now the images only represent Israeli deaths. with a death rate of 80-1 the majority of images are about 'Israelis taking cover' or 'Israelis in a bomb shelter'. this is a total travesty.

Hey... Re-read the article, ther are tons of things that talk about the rates of death on the Side of Gaza, and I didn't read anything whatsoever that is positive (as in unfair) to Israel. In my opinion, if no press is let into Gaza (another topic...), and the only pictures coming out of the area are the pictures of Israel's side, you should claim no bias. If no pictures are "capable of being shot", then there are none to be posted to make it non-biased. Additionaly, pictures of either side are barely displayed, so it appears that this comment should be marked for deletion.
Does anyone agree to delete it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pokoleo (talk • contribs) 00:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree and was about to upload a better protest photo. Other Wikicommons options here. Also two photos about tiny rockets when mega bombs are killing hundreds is POV. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The article clearly describes Palestinian suffering (which I have no doubt is very grave). Once pictures become available we will for sure post them. Yet the thing I find biased is calling rockets "tiny", as if they are not deadly weapons aimed specifically (and admittedly by their users) at civilians. Then, to use the "tiny" argument as an excuse to remove pictures showing the "tiny" damage they cause. You may point to Osher Twito that the're tiny, so there is nothing he should be worried about.--Omrim (talk) 02:27, 9 January009 (UTC)

A problem we've had is the lack of copyleft pictures available from Gaza. Because we have none, the pictures of damage in Israel create an impression that is unbalanced and certainly does not reflect the disproportionate casualties and damage figures. Suggest the pics be removed. RomaC (talk) 02:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a much better argument. I support as long as they are back once we have pictures available from Gaza.--Omrim (talk) 02:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Please discuss the Lead/Lede/Intro at Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict/Lead

---

Needs to be re-written. Nothing wrong with the content, but the grammer is quite poor to the opint of being unsuitable for wikipedia. I would re-write it myself, but admittedly, by english ain't that great either ;) and the article desrves something a little more polished. Just my 2 cents.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.61.95 (talk • contribs)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arabic Interwiki

I can say it a thousand times - the Arabic article "the Massacre of Gaza" cannot be regarded as an equivalent to this article. There was a short period of time when the Arab Wikipedia had indeed a relatively fair article about the events in Gaza, but they moved it again to this provocative title, and made that article once again into an anti-Israeli propaganda. They also created "a series of articles about Israeli massacres" which includes that "massacre" article with "The Gaza Holocaust" and other despicable materials like this. The fact that the Arabic Wikipedia users breached any possible Wikipedian rule is one thing, the fact that the English Wikipedia cooperate with this approach by considering this article equivalent to that "massacre" article is another. They are not equivalent, and shouldn't be regarded as such. DrorK (talk) 13:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not for you to decide. if Gaza Massacre is the common name of the attack in arabic, that's the name they should use. If anything this only sounds like a pro-Israel move for removal of the view of the arabic world. — chandler — 13:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you don't really understand the concept of conveying knowledge. Calling someone "a murderer" is not okay just because many people say so, whether it is in Arabic or in English. The Arabic Wikipedia users are trying to use Wikipedia as a platform for propaganda counting on the fact that there aren't too many foreigners who speak their language. In any case, such a propaganda cannot be said to be equivalent to this article. DrorK (talk) 13:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

You can restate your position a million times DrorK. It won't make it any more valid. Arabic sources use "Gaza massacre", "War on Gaza" and "Gaza Under Fire" to describe the events we are describing here. It's up to editors of the Arabic article to debate their name choices based on an assessment of reliable sources, much as we are here. (And you should take your debate there, since as you said earlier, you are fluent in Arabic). I'm quite sure they are as offended by our title, which creates a false parity where there is none, as you are by theirs. Should they refuse to link to en-wiki citing our bias? Tiamut^talk 13:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Just because you don't like it doesnt mean it shouldn't be included. The Hebrew wp probably is just as biased, and from what I can see it links to the arabic one, therefore we have to remove the hebrew one and all other languages who link and think themself the equivalent to the arabic article. And again, it has already been discussed to leave it in. The article is covering the same thing. And why wouldn't it be ok to call someone a murderer, there are murderers you know. — chandler — 13:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

FYI, the Hebrew Wikipedia article is not biased and you are invited to check it. Actually, the Arabic Wikipedia article is the only one among the different Wikipedias which manipulates facts and terminology. The debate in the Arabic Wikipedia is full of slandars towards those who try to change this state of affairs. This is a disturbing issue for itself, but it is not relevant here. What is relevant is that we cannot link this article to an article called "The Gaza Massacre". Sorry, we are not here to make anti-Israeli propaganda, even if it is only through an interwiki. DrorK (talk) 13:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

It is the common name in the arab world. It is not about pro/anti-Israel. And again, just because you dont like what the common name in, doesn't mean it should be removed. — chandler — 14:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Drork, the arab point of view should be shown as interwiki or something. Hide a link to simply state "provocative" it's your opinion and POV measurement. --Ciao 90 (talk) 14:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Drork, who cares Arabic wiki? ;).. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.154.22.58 (talk) 14:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, let me assure you that I would ask to remove the he-wp interwiki as well had it been linking to an article titled "The Glorious Victory over Hamas", or even "The Israeli War against Terrorism". All articles in all Wikipedias describing these events titled their articles either with the meaningless code-name given by the Israeli army, with a fairly neutral title such as "The Attack on Gaza", "The Israeli-Gazan Conflict" etc. All but the Arabic Wikipedia in which some users are trying to push propaganda, and by linking to their article we bring this propaganda here through the back door. Sorry, this is not why we're here. DrorK (talk) 14:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Arab Wikipedia bias is not our point. Interwiki is to link and integrate all other Wikipedias with the same content, biased or not, well worked or not. You're disrupting an Wikipedia feature. --Ciao 90 (talk) 14:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

So what you are basically saying is that, an Arabic article can be biased even though Wikipedia consensus is that articles should be NPOV, just because it is in Arabic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.112.97 (talk) 20:27, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Leave it DrorK, or you could participate in the editing of the arabic wiki if you like. RomaC (talk) 14:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The Arabic Wikipedians actually prevent people from editing this articles, by putting all kind of pressure on people who wish to balance the article. The interwiki should go immediately because "Gaza massacre" cannot be a title for an article which describes these events. DrorK (talk) 15:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry DrorK that's not for you to decide, you've been warned for vandalism there is no consensus for your repeated deletions of the interwiki link to the arabic article. RomaC (talk) 15:27, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

DrorK: I agree the Arabic wikipedia is mistaken in naming their article "massacre", but their mistake is their mistake: this is EnWiki... don't inter-wiki forum shop :D.

Your argument on "murdering" is compelling, but ultimately falicious in this context: no one (serious) here is saying that we call these events "massacre". In an article about someone charged with murder, we ar enot allowed to call the person a "murderer" that is true. But we are allowed to say that the prosecutor called the subject a "murderer". It doesn't make it true or biased, it simply describes accurately the views of the prosecutor.

Likewise, this article describes these events as "Operation Cast Lead", a description not accepted by one side of the events, but significant nevertheless and we must mention it in the lead/lede/intro because it is the the description given by one side. We must give due weight consideration to the "massacre" name, provided it is well sourced and verifiably an official claim - we had some issue with false sourcing - and will accept sources in any language provided they verify (it is trivial to find verification in other languages, even rough online translations are enough). Nuetrality requires that we do, as it would be like the prosecutor's description of a person accused of murder, but whose guilt has not been proven.--Cerejota (talk) 16:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The Arabic Wikipedia, as any Wikipedia, is not a source - it relies on sources. It doesn't suppose to have an opinion or express an opinion of its own. By calling the events in Gaza "massacre" they breach the basic rules of Wikipedia in any language. The fact that many Arab sources use this terminology doesn't make it okay to call the Arabic article "the Gaza Massacre". By having an interwiki to this Arabic article we (indirectly) acknowledge the Arabic Wikipedia improper judgment. While I don't expect English speaking Wikipedians to get involved in the Arabic Wikipedia, I do expect them to say: we will not link the article "2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict" to an article called "The Gaza Massacre". We cannot suggest that these two articles are equivalent. We could mention in the body of the English article that there are Arab source that use this terminology, but our message to our Arabic speaking colleagues is: write a real equivalent article, and then we will interlink. You are part of the Wikipedia project and not another Arab source. DrorK (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

In contrast to DroK,I note that linking to all Wikipedia articles is vital to indicate various approaches to covering an issue. The best that the English Wikipedia can do is indicate the questions arising in relation to the Arabic version. Not to link would be to close a door on an information source .Any item that provides information, whatever the origin of that information,is a source, even if only a source at a third or fourth remove.

My entry is definitely not part of this article work, but I feel that some background is needed. I am really sorry for the way this matter was badly presented. Dorok forgot to mention here a few minor facts. Such as the fact that almost all major Arabic news agencies address the event as "Massacre of Gaza", and by almost all I mean a really considerable amount of ALMOST ALL. Simply put, this is the name widely used in Arab world to refer to this event. Whether the name is not appealing to someone is not, and will not be an issue back in Arabic wikipedia. Such naming conflict is similar in nature to the Arabian-Persian gulf naming conflict. The article name might be changed in the future if the majorty of local media shift the use of the naming criteria. Such criteria was applied to the the 2006 war on Lebanon article as the article was finally named "حرب لبنان 2006" arabic for "2006 Lebanon War". That did not seem to bother Dorok at the time, as calls from lots to name it "Lebanon Massacre" were ignored

Drork contributions within this article on ar.wiki, were really few. The main highlights were: a couple of non-whatever discussed, extremely argumental article renaming attempts. Followed, when failed, by an 'you people should leave wikipedia' kind of argument. Then another undiscussed move followed, when failed, by an "You hate me cause I am an Israeli" kind of argument. Then another long "You are all nothing but a bunch of liars" argument. Sadly no real discussion was even attempted by Dorok. Similar argument were used by Dorok in the past in ar.wiki, arguments such as the 'if you do not agree with me then that means you are HAMAS' argument , and the famous 'you are nothing but a terrorist, your arguments are meaningless to me'. once Dorok pasted his two bits, he requested his userpage erased, and came here to ..... I don't know really. I find him capable of opening a discussion here.

Dorok might has been offended by the article title, I am willing to understand that. Every body here is offended by something. Yet, being offended is not relative to the work we handle. Lots of Arabic wkipedia users had there share of bad feelings cause of the use of the images within Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy article, yet, when a fast vote (here on en.wiki) took place most of Arabic wikipedia users, including my self, voted to keep the images within en.wikipedia. People crying to remove the en.interwiki from the arabic article where handled gently, as we explained to them the fact that en.wikipedia is another project, and communities on any project have the right to add any basic information or file they find appropriate to an article, the extent of the word appropriate is left to the community of the project in talk.

Personally I find the discussion that toke place above about Arabic wikipedia, extremely inappropriate, and certainly irrelevant to the article. Neither the larger size of English wikipedia , nore Arabic wikipedia refusal of disruptive actions is a good reason to smear Arabic wikipedia project within this talk-page.

Again I know my entry was irrelevant to this article. and I do apologize. I do not feel good when I am pushed to discuss gray with a black and white person, I know most of you feel the same. A single side of a story, is really nothing more than that. It does not matter if the story was part of an article or a compliant. --Tarawneh (talk) 01:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Just a clarification - all of my edits were reverted, and I was called "a Zionist racist" and "a soldier in the occupation army" on the talk page of the Arabic article. For the record - I'm not a soldier, not even a civil servant. The fact that the majority (certainly not all) of Arab sources call the even "a massacre" is irrelevant. They might as well call Olmert "the murderer" it would NOT make this terminology valid for Wikipedia. These rules are applicable for all Wikipedias, and indeed despite certain problems with the he-wp article, no one there would even dream to call such an article "The War on Terror" or something similar to that, backing it with Hebrew sources. The Iranian sources certainly use the term "massacre" due to their anti-Israeli approach, and yet the Persian Wikipedia keep the article about the recent events in Gaza very neutral and informative. Despite the seemingly irrelevance of this discussion to en-wp, I am glad it is held here, because it might bring to people's attention the fact that there are rules which are applicable to all Wikipedias, and that Wikipedias in certain languages should not be left as an island or a closed community. DrorK (talk) 07:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Drork was given a short wikibreak on commons because of his insults there. Rules apply also to Drork. And one important rule is that wikipedia is not censored. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 10:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Pieter Kuiper, why won't you go and browse some of Latuff's albums, or paint some swastikas on your room walls? I think it will calm you down a bit. DrorK (talk) 16:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Drork, give it a rest. Iranians and Olmert? what does that have to to do with the Arabic wipkedia article? And why are we even discussing this here? Plus rules? What rules? You do not mean the hidden unwritten secret rules like the ones you claimed exist in your argument in an attempt to speedy delete the Holocaust denial stub back on Arabic, cause the "concept of Holocaust denial" is illegal in some countries, and that time must not be waisted in such articles. Or the secret hidden rules you based your "I will make sure this project is closed down for good" big speech last year. Don't you find your claim to improve the article back there strange , when the only contributions you did had in its talkpage were nothing but insults to other users. Correct me if I was wrong, but the only sincere effort from your side to that article was to request its interwiki removed here by providing false claims.

Is this really about the article? Somebody insulted you! Man, I opened a special page for people to insult me. You had your share of actually insulting a lot of Arabic wikipedia editors, insulting them as editors. Still, you as a user was never blocked, dispite your behaviour (other than your 3rr blocks). A lots of Arabic wikipedia users including my self belive that regardless of your behaviour, the Israeli articles in Arabic wikipedia needs your contributions to provided the needed balance. Please give it a rest. If this is about the Arabic page, then there is a talk-page for that in Arabic wikipedia, and if this is about you, then this is not the page to discuss it. --Tarawneh (talk) 14:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Tarawneh, don't make it a personal issue. You know perfectly well that ar-wp has deteriorated into anti-Israeli propaganda. You know perfectly well that it also includes propaganda against Druze and other groups. I did my best to help improving it, but honestly I have had enough. It is a pity that we have this discussion here in English. Had it been on ar-wp I would have been called "Zionist racist" and blocked. DrorK (talk) 16:52, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• The ArWiki editors are working on the article, DrorK. Kindly keep in mind that due to its nature as a work in progress, it is very much possible to have not-very-much-neatly-written paragraphs and/or bias-wise shady wordings. The common goal is, of course, to have everything fixed as soon as possible. Come along and join the work, and remember the golden rule: Do not think of discussion pages as forums or bulletin boards :) --Almasvault (talk) 08:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with DrorK, it is an unfair to name the article such but at the same time theres no harm to EnWiki linking to the Arabic page on the Gaza situation. Its useful to see how neutrality, differs from region to region, from language to language Superpie (talk) 20:52, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

So neutrality is a matter of geography? DrorK (talk) 21:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Just like conceptions of human rights, democracy, fashion, culture and every other thing that we humans know and do is a matter of geography, our concepts of neutrality differ too depending on our environment. Yes. I would have thought that clear? Superpie (talk) 02:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all this discussion has gone actually too long and should not be discussed here but in Arabic Wikipedia or something, because this is a matter of the Arabic Wikipedia and not the English Wikipedia. There is a discussion on the Arabic Wikipedia on why to change the article to the war on Gaza. Feel free to comment there and put these opinions there. Second of all the whole Arabic region sees the attacks as inhuman and as a total massacre because the attacks were air raids by the IAF where Gaza has no air defense and no military that could even defend the public. Half of the deaths were women and children, which makes the collateral damage too big. So, please don't say it's biased and so on the arabic article has all the info that make it unbiased mentioning the rocket attacks by Hamas that started the whole war, but also mentioning the total punishing of the palestinians through the closing of all Gazan borders, which resulted in no supplies including medical, petrol and food supplies. The punishing of all the Gazans is regarded as a massacre. The definition of a massacre is: "The intentional killing of a considerable number of human beings, under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people" Israel knew that there were civilians there and the casualities were too many to be regarded as a normal attack. The Arabs are very sensitive now about the subject. They know that it was a result of Hamas's attacks but still the civilian casualities were too much to be left without protest.

• What to do? Wait until this calms down and it may be called the war on gaza.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 10:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

How come no other Wikipedia called the events in Gaza "a massacre"? How come the only Wikipedia that has an article called "The Gaza Holocaust" is the Arabic one (about a clash between Israel and Hamas in Feb 2008)? How come it is the only Wikipedia which has a category about "Zionist massacres" against Palestinians? How come it is the only one that has an article about Israel's plans to demolish Al-Aqsa Mosque? How come it is the only Wikipedia which refuses to acknowledge the fact that Hebrew is one of the main languages spoken in the region of Palestine? How come it is the only Wikipedia that describes the Western Wall as a holy Muslim shrine rather than a religious Jewish praying site? How come a person who protest this propaganda offered under the name Wikipedia is called "Zionist racist" (which is one of the reasons why this discussion is held here and not there)? DrorK (talk) 12:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. If you find something to be wrong change it and add a reliable citation. Help improve the Arabs' view by improving Wikipedia Arabic. Wish you luck and success :). The questions you asked can't be answered because each one can be debated for months and years. Each question leads to another question which in the end will lead to who has the right on Palestine and where the borders should be. Is it really your legal right to have the promised land? Is it your right to divide a land (after the UN of course) when only one side accepted the proposal while the other didn't? Is it your right to move an entire population forcibly again and again and again ? Is it your right to have (at first of course) half of a land where only 30% of a Jewish population existed and than gaining more? This is a big discussion and debate. It isn't in my league to debate these things but these are the question that you want to answer or actually here is my question: What do you want? What do u want to prove? Do u want to show the Arabs as a biased population? What is it you want to say, I mean what's your point? The Arabic Wikipedia is biased and there is no way it could be neutral again, is that your statement? Just tell me in one sentence please what do u want the English Wikipedia to do about the Arabic Wikipedia? --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:57, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I started this discussion by saying that an article called "The Gaza Massacre" cannot be regarded as equivalent to this article. The discussion developed into a wider scope - which is a good thing actually, because the different Wikipedias must not be "islands", and mutual influence should not be limited to placing interwikis. As this discussion developed, the Arabic article about the events in Gaza improved significantly. Has this discussion in English motivated Arab Wikipedians to improve the Arabic article? I can't tell. I know that as long as the discussion was confined to the Arabic talk page, it didn't make the article much better. I know Wikipedia (in any language) is here to convey knowledge and facts, and having NPOV is necessary for this purpose. I gave some examples above to how the Arabic Wikipedia is used to express opinions and views rather than convey knowledge and facts. I know other Wikipedias have this problem too, but it seems to me that ar-wp has this problem more than others, especially in what concerns the Israeli-Arab conflict, but also in some other subjects. I wouldn't like to offer any explanation to that, but I do think this problem should be known and confronted. Many people here hide behind the idea that knowledge is relative, and different point of views should be respected, while they should demand that every article in any language would be written with the purpose of conveying facts and knowledge. DrorK (talk) 23:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

(Undent) The other wikipedias dont call it a massacre because their sources do not call it a massacre. Arabic sources overwhelmingly do call it a massacre, and thus, the wiki being a product of its sources, the article is called the gaza massacre. This whole time you have been arguing that arabs shouldnt be calling it a massacre, that the facts dont support such a claim. That opinion, whether valid or not, is not what determines the name of an article, it is what the common name in the language for the event that determines the name. You cannot argue that the 2 wikis are discussing the same event, so to then argue that because of the common name for said event is in your mind, and understandably so, non-neutral that we should then censor that undermines core principles of the wikis. Yes the wiki should serve to convey facts and hopefully transfer knowledge, but what we think are facts are almost always perceptions of facts. It boggles my mind that something that should be as trivial as asking what is the common term associated with an event in a given language needs to be so difficult. If arabs are calling this event the gaza massacre, then surprise! the name of the article will be the gaza massacre. Nableezy (talk) 02:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact that most (not all) Arabic resources call these events "a massacre" merely indicates that most Arabic resources have a certain opinion about these events. It does not mean that these events are actually a massacre nor that it should be called "a massacre" on any Wikipedia (save when presenting different opinions about the events). In fact, considering that the word "massacre" is judgmental (very close to the word "murder"), and that most non-Arabic resources don't use it, no Wikipedia, including the Arabic one, should use this word as a title for its articles about this subject. Claiming otherwise is claiming that knowledge is relative, and that knowledge changes according to language and culture. Arabs can use any terminology they want - the Arabic Wikipedia, as any Wikipedia, should adhere to NPOV. When an article in a certain language describes certain events in a one-sided way while trying to push extremist opinions (and note that the original version of the ar-wp article used terms like "occupation army" and other problematic terms which were removed eventually), the English Wikipedia cannot regarded as an equivalent article, simply because it talks about the same events. This has nothing to do with censorship. The English article includes all kind of references, but interwikis are not reference links, they are links to equivalent Wikipedian articles. DrorK (talk) 05:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect spelling

What is wrong with you people? Omrim's horribly typed statement has been in the article for hours and I thought someone was going to fix it, I come back and it is still there? FIX IT!! Again, I cannot edit the article because my account is not auto confirmed yet. Please fix "Acoording to their statemets, About..." in the section entitled Samouni family. --Learsi si natas (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

done and chill Nableezy (talk) 04:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing my typos. Sorry about that. And, Learsi si natas, you really shouldn't take it personally. You can at the least be tolerant to people (such as myself) for whom English is not mother tongue. Lucky for us, this is wiki, so I can assume your good faith. Otherwise I would have suspected that you have a problem with me, rather than with my typos.--Omrim (talk) 15:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

dont think we'll get a response, user has been blocked for username (read it backwards) Nableezy (talk) 19:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Nice! Originality is usually a virtue. Not in this case though...--Omrim (talk) 23:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Good thing he was blocked. a username like that should never be allowed and thank g-d he can't edit this article or else we would be reading a gigantic piece of antisemitic propaganda.(Raphmam (talk) 03:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC))

Oh GOD you people and you're constant whining about antisemitism this and antisemitism that no wonder American media doesn't report the warcrimes that Israelis do. Maybe we should do a piece about this in the article? --68.123.141.153 (talk) 05:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I have been blocked for one day you (insert profanity here) not for eternity. :) Nablezu 3yenuk - 68.123.141.153 (talk) 05:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Raphmam, Nablezu you aren't helping with comments like these. Everyone is frustrated. We're supposed to focus on the article not on the editors. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Note From Commentor

I am trying not to address in this comment the question of whether certain arguments are correct or incorrect. There are many paces where i believe statement are wrong but i am not addressing those. I am addressing the lack of balance in the article and explaining what other information should be included and how certain changes should be made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

UN attacked by Israel, end of humanitarian aid

Should probably be added to the notable events; Israelis attacked a UN humanitarian relief truck, killing the drivers, and causing the UN to completely end their humanitarian relief efforts in Gaza, citing this incident as well as the school bombings.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=Asduk0rLKzEWc5nTjkq.Dd.s0NUE

AndarielHalo (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. For now, I added a brief note at the Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, which we seem to have forgotten about developing since it was farmed out of this article to its own page. I encourage editors to continue working on that article too, after which we can move parts of it back here. For new editors, that might be a good place to edit since this article is protected from editing by them. Odd. Tiamut^talk 17:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think its worth more than a brief note, the UN stopping and the Red cross perhaps stopping because of Israel shooting at them. — _CHANDLER^#10 — 17:58, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I've created a section on "Attacks on United Nations' installations and workers", since there is this, the three attacks on UNRWA schools, etc. Here's hoping that the section won't get any longer (due to the facts on the ground) in the days to come. Tiamut^talk 21:33, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The section I created has been deleted twice now, and without discussion. I don't feel like wasting my time putting it back in again when no one is bothering to discuss it. If others think it's worth pursuing, by all means go ahead. The information is basically covered in bits and pieces in the article anyway. Tiamut^talk 22:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut, is there a way you can "park" the section here or somewhere so that others can replace it when it's removed? (So we don't have to hunt for it in the history page) RomaC (talk) 02:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Infoboxes

We should get rid of the infoboxes in the "Notable Incidents" section. Clearly the article itself and Major parts of it deserves infoboxes but those parts are minor parts. It will just make the article blurry and double the information, the Samouni family infobox is as high as the actual information without contributing with anything. Unneccessary. If we keep them we should add an infobox to every minor part of the article where it is possible, like to the the "Rockets from Lebanon" section for example, so we can illustrate all attacks with infoboxes. Not just those where Israel is perpetrators, that is POV.--Fipplet (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the infoboxes highlighting major attacks are worth including. (The ones in this diff [1]) Is there is a major attack against Israelis by Palestinian militants that you would to include that is not currently represented?

Tomtom9041 has deleted them again it seems, without discussion. I for one would like to see them restored. Other editors, any thoughts? Tiamut^talk 18:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

"Clearly the article itself and Major parts of it deserves infoboxes but those parts are minor parts. It will just make the article blurry and double the information, the Samouni family infobox is as high as the actual information without contributing with anything. Unneccessary. If we keep them we should add an infobox to every minor part of the article where it is possible, like to the the "Rockets from Lebanon" section for example." Also rockets that has killed Israelis are at least as worth having an infobox as the dignity infobox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fipplet (talk • contribs) 18:57, 8 January 2009

I see alll the aforementioned infoboxes have been removed.--98.111.139.133 (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions regarding structure

I have been following the development of this article, along with the issues raised on the talk page, for some days now, and I have to say that the article is extremely informative and reasonably neutral, the latter being especially impressive in light of the sensitivity of the topic and the fact that - let's be honest - several of the active editors seem to be motivated primarily by the desire to defend one or the other of the sides. Bottom line, this article increases my optimism regarding the Wikipedia process. I want to contribute to the page, and am waiting to be autoconfirmed. In the meantime, I would like to make some suggestions regarding the structure of the article, in the hopes one of you will be convinced by them and adopt them.

1. The article does not contain a section dealing with the negative effects of the conflict on the Israeli population. (I doubt anyone would deny that these are less severe than the effects on the Gaza population, but they are significant, and should be included. If the section gets anywhere near the length of the equivalent section on Gaza, then we can start arguing about undue weight.) They include shutting down of schools and workplaces, psychological trauma and large numbers of effective refugees as a result of Hamas rocket attacks.
2. The section "Alleged violations of international law" should be further subdivided into the specific crimes being alleged. "By the Israel Defence Forces" can be subdivided into "collective punishment", "targetting of enemy civilians" and "disproportionate response". While "By Palestinian militants" can be subdivided into "targetting of enemy civilians" and "use of own civilians as human shields". Further, I believe that Hamas is accused of additional violations of IL, such as executing its own civilians and rival Gazan militants as well as taking supplies intended for civilian aid. The recently added subsection "International Committee of the Red Cross" is superfluous, as its content already appears elsewhere in the section, and its title is misleading, implying that the ICRC is alleged to have violated IL. The intro to the whole section should probably note that Hamas is regarded by many countries to be a terrorist group and that, according to these countries, (I presume) any significant action by that group would be a violation of IL, per int'l conventions on terrorism.
3. The "External links" section is being overlooked, and is somewhat sloppy; it has links to sources that are not necessarily of primary significance, and also seems to point to a greater number of blatantly pro-Palestinian sources than blatantly pro-Israel sources.
4. The content in the recently added section "Expatriate community" is not significant enough to deserve its own section, unless -maybe - renamed to something less confusing such as "Foreigners in the conflict" and changed to include the conflict's effects on foreigners in Israel.
5. The last two paragraphs in the section "Israeli media campaign" have nothing to do with a media campaign. The last paragraph, which deals with alleged Israeli psychological warfare, can be combined with the paragraph in the "Casualties" section dealing with alleged Hamas psychological warfare and given its own section "Psychological warfare", possibly with "Alleged".
6. In the section "Reactions", the paragraph about crimes alleged to have been committed as a reaction to the conflict is significant enough to have its own subsection, while being expanded to include some level of detail.

I have many more suggestions, but I'll wait to see if any of these are adopted. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 21:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Re your suggestion to split out the "Psychological warfare" information. I did that, though I named it "Psychological tactics" (which I will probably change to your suggestion. It's much better.) I created a new section on the "Ban of foreign media to Gaza" out of part of the media material.

About your other points ... it's much easier if you just jump in and make a WP:BRD edit when you can. If the material is relevant and reliably sourced, people will usually work with it and find a place for it somewhere. And if your organization is an improvement, it'll usually stick. I'll try to integrate some of your suggestions myself though, until you can get into editing directly. Welcome to Wikipedia. Tiamut^talk 23:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice (and for your welcome), but the problem is that I can't make any edits to this article until I'm autoconfirmed, which will take 4 days. Regarding the psychological warfare section, I think the part about Hamas claiming to have abducted Israeli soldiers, and Israel's allegation that that claim is PsyWar, should be included. Also, I didn't think about it before you brought the issue up, but since the entire article is labelled using "conflict", the psy. aspect probably shouldn't use "warfare", a stronger term, and thus I agree with your original title, "tactics". Regarding the section on banning journalists, I think that the issue receiving an entire section and 4 paragraphs is seriously undue weight. There are many conflicts where a party refuses to allow entry from its territory into the other party's, and I haven't seen any other case where that fact receives an entire section in the WP article on the conflict. That being said, I admit that I don't have a good idea on where in the article the info should be placed. Thanks again for the welcome. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 23:45, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Rockets and mortar fire decreased 98%?

Really, is that a joke? I am having trouble to assume good faith here. It seems as if statistics are being used here not to describe facts but rather to promote someone's POV. Was a Linear Regression performed? What is the R square of this finding, and was the correlation found to have Statistical significance? Why not presenting the percentage differences between October and November (both presumably months in which the truce was still in effect)? It shows an increase of 200% in the rocket fire. Why four months of average? why not 6? why not a year? why not 10? Statistics is a very dangerous tool and should be used cautiously and only with expertise. What other Independent variables were used? Have you considered weather? what about the same time previous year? is it proven not to be cyclical? Statistical intrepretation is, after all, original research. Hence, please remove it. The fact the fire from Gaza has decreased is already there, and there is no need to add it with statistical interpretations, and we shouldn't do so. Come on people. At least TRY to be impartial.--Omrim (talk) 21:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

You would do better to take the data, and, given your mathematical background, analyse it independently to show why, in your view, it breaks down or misconstrues the data. As it stands, your argument is generic and abstract, a rejection of principle, rather than a demonstration of the inadequacy of the statistical model given. Nishidani (talk) 21:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

My argument is everything but abstract. It is right to the point: to make a statistical conclusion one must have expertise in statistics. To say that a Dependent variable (rocket fire in our case) "decreased 98%", and to conclude that some Independent variable (a truce, in our case) was the cause for such a decrease is very hard to prove statistcally. Statistical proof = scientific proof, and hence demands rigorous and complicated procedure in which, among others, a researcher must explain his Statistical assumptions, his choice of variables, his choice of coefficients, and so on and so on. To do what you're asking me to do would take months, to say the least (I am serious here, really), and I have not interntion to embark in such a mission. Really, just take a look at the wikilinks I provided. The same way, do not pose statistics to be a fact. This is an original research, which given the time in which it was performed, has no merits what so ever. I think I made my ponit very clear when asking why doesn't the text demonstrates the ~200% increase from October to November? Is that a statistical fact showing that Hamas ended the truce in November? No! exactly just as that the 98% decrease doesn't show (statisticlly) nothing, and for this reason it should be out!--Omrim (talk) 22:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay how about: "immediately after the cease fire entered into affect, the fire from gaza decreased 98%, only to be increased 50% the next month. In the next following 3 months the fire decreased again 10%, 60% and 50% respectively, but increased 1000% in November, a month during which the truce was still in affect." Does that makes sense? no, but it is all true. Yet it has no statistical significance and shouldn't be there. Again: the statistical anlisys is all about original research and should be removed.--Omrim (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Omrim, The edit you refer to is mine and I would be happy to discuss it. The 98% reduction is a descriptive statement of the data presented by the Israeli government. As I stated in the edit (and several times before I made this edit) Rocket fire went from ~1900 to 37 in consecutive 4.5 mo periods. That is a 98% drop. None of the data is my own.

If you would like to argue that this didnt happen because of the ceasefire you may propose a way to rephrase the statement. Your contention however about statistics is not relevant in my opinion. Hamas agreed to stop launching rockets as part of the ceasefire. Hamas therefore would attribute the reduction in rocket launching to the ceasefire. Do you have any source suggesting a different reason for the reduction in rockets?

If you would like to say rockets increased ~200% from oct to nov you can do so. That would be a description of data as well in my opinion. Of course it would be most accurate if you provided context and referenced that Hamas said it launched retaliatory rockets due to the events of Nov 4. These are stated reasons and have nothing to do with statistical correlation. Thrylos000 (talk) 22:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Aha! got you there! context? why? why should we mention that Hamas argues that Israel breached the truce on Nov 4th? Is the rise in rocket fire statistically correlated to it? What we have here is a simple misunderstanding of what statistics is. IT IS NOT A DESCRIPTOR OF FACT, IT IS AN INTERPRETATION! Ask any first year statistics student. If you insist to include the 1000% rise as a DESCRIPTOR (not interpretation) than the Nov, 4th incident is not relevant. After all the incidentExplains why (maybe) it happend, it doesn't describe what had happened. What I am saying basically, is that 98% is not a fact. Average is also not a fact. Both are explaining facts. In order to make it a statistical fact you have to explain why you took only 4 month average (why not 8 years average); That you tested to see that the decrease is not statistically corellated with other events (for example, I can easily assume that Israeli raids also decreased substantially, maybe this explains the decrease in the rocket fire, I am sure we can find correlation here), and so on. I didn't invent it. look at the wikilinks I provided. Saying that Hamas has 98% adhered to the truce, is like saying that Hamas 96.5% (or whatever) is in violation of International Law. Finally please note I am not trying to bring forward at any stage what is Israel's stance here since it is unimportant statistically as well. This should be removed. You can call my point abstract as loud as you want. It is not. It is backed by hundreds of years of statistcal research. I'll add an analogy which may better explain my point: A man has a hobby of fire-engines spotting. He follows them and take notes. Few years into his hobby he says to his friend (based on his factual data he collected): 98% of the time I watched fire-trucks they were in the vicinity of fires. I can't help but conclude that fire-fighters cause fires.--Omrim (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

A percentage is an arithmetic operation that summarizes data. Its not a statistical statement. Statistics deal with probability, uncertainty, correlation and associations. A percentage is not a statistical object. Thrylos000 (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

This is simply absolutely not true once the data is preceded by statements such as "following the truce...)". It is not even true on its own (without preceding statements) if the choice of data is not explained (again: why only 4 month average and not 8 years?)--Omrim (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

When saying "98% decrease as a result of the truce, this is a statistical statement. It has all: variables, correlation, significance, coefficiencies. This is, simply stated, a statistical lie. (may well be true, but you can't tell since you didn't test it). it is certainly not "arithmetic".--Omrim (talk) 23:27, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Omrim, I have removed the ambiguous causal language in my statements. I do not fully agree with your criticism becuase causality can be attributed to certain events by actors such as Hamas (reduction in rockets after Jun 18, increase after Nov 4) without needing stastical confirmation, which is hardly relevant in this case. I agree that the wording can be improved however and made less ambiguous. Please check my edits and comment. Thank you. Thrylos000 (talk) 23:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I truly appreciate it. Really. If actors say something like: "because of the truce we didn't fire", by all means - include it. Include numbers. That's also Okay as they are factual. However, it is a long way before you could say that the truce is what brought about a 98% decrease. I was about to make a point with this statement:

"However, between Israel’s evacuation of Gaza and the election of Hamas (Aug. 15, 2005 – Jan. 25, 2006), there was an average of about 15 rocket and mortar attacks a month. Hence the average number of rockets fired during the truce represent a true decrease of ~20% in rockets and mortar attacks."

Of course it is not relevant any more. Just goes to show I wasn't lazy, and that I was trying to bring concerete example that shows why it is bad idea to include statistics. Thanks again. --Omrim (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Omrim, I appreciate what I view as your sincere effort to assure all statements are written with the necessary rigor, especially given the nature of this article. I am glad we were able to resolve this contention in good spirits. I welcome any criticism of my edits. Thanks. Thrylos000 (talk) 00:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I must admit I still resent the 98% inclusion (due to the choice of periods), I think we should include the entire period (8 years) in which rockets are fired, or at least the period since Hamas took power (which then I suspect the results to be far less dramatic). But we all have to make compromises, right? well, this is mine.--Omrim (talk) 00:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

About statistical analyses, A recent statistical analysis by three academics (one at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, one at Harvard and one from Tel Aviv University) found that an overwhelming majority of lulls in violence since 2000 (when the second intifada began) ended when Israelis killed Palestinians, sparking renewed tit-for-tat violence. According to Nancy Kanwisher, Johannes Haushofer and Anat Biletzki, "79 percent of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8 percent were interrupted by Palestinian attacks." The pattern was "more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. ... Of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96 percent." Tiamut^talk 01:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, this may indeed be the case. Yet, as a master's degree graduate you surely understand my statistical point: statistical causality claims must be rigorously supported. And this one wasn't. The articles you mentioned have no room in this article. However, we should definitely consider including them in Israeli–Palestinian conflict.--Omrim (talk) 01:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW, out of my own interest in the subject: where was this study published? the source doesn't say. --Omrim (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the star tribune doesn't source this article. I wonder if it exists. Sounds like the kind of article that would (should) be all over the news. I would also be very interested in seeing it, and I agree it should be included in the more general article. Thrylos000 (talk) 02:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html. Not exactly peer review. Interesting nonetheless but Tiamut's post made it sound like a major, refereed study. Thrylos000 (talk) 02:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I must say it is not the best statistical anlysis I have ever read and that is a hugh understatement."We defined "conflict pauses" as periods of one or more days when no one is killed on either side, and we asked which side killed first after conflict pauses of different durations". i.e., if there was a "pause" in the conflict, and rockets were fired into Israel, it wouldn't have been considered as if the "pause" ended as long as no one was killed as a result of the rockets. If Israel was able to hit the rocket launchers and kill the people who operated them, then Israel would be considered to "end the pause". Ridiculous. --Omrim (talk) 02:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. It is an interesting report, but only in the sense of providing an extreme example of the farcical lengths that some “academics” will go to in order to push a POV. It starts with the fudging of data points. The number of attacks by Hamas on Israel is allegedly based on data from The Israeli consulate in NYC. The given source does indeed have a similar graph showing the number of rockets fired by Hamas into Israel, broken down by month. But is also has another graph, showing the number of mortar shells fired by Hamas into Israel, broken down by month. The number of those shells is nearly 50% higher than the number of rockets, but for some unexplained reason, they have not found their way into the “study”, thereby basing the result on less than 45% of the incidents. Stranger still is the unusual definition used by these “academics” for the ”end of the cease-fire” or “end of conflict pause”. You might think that a cease-fire ends when one side fires (a rocket, or a mortar shell) at the other side, but no. For these academics, a cease-fire ends only when someone is killed. So, Hamas can fire a shell or a rocket every 4-5 days (as they did - 26 shells/rockets in a 4 month period) – but that does not end the cease fire. It somehow magically ends only when Israel kills a Palestinian. Note that according to this weird definition, Hamas could have continued to fire at the same rate as it did before the cease fire – of 100+ rockets per months – but so long as no Israeli was actually killed, these ridiculous “academics” would consider the conflict “paused”. Israelis could be wounded by the hundreds by these rockets and mortars, but so long as the good doctors of Barzilai or Soroka hospitals managed to save their lives, these “academics” would pronounced the cease-fire in place, and the conflict “paused’. Ridiculous indeed. Had they tried to pawn this off on a peer-reviewed journal, they would have been laughed out of the place. NoCal100 (talk) 04:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I know absolutely nothing about statistics, but I do understand the notion that they can be used misleadingly to make a point. A mere tally of rockets fired over the period immediately preceding the ceasefire and up to the resumption of hostilities may be a skewed way of looking at the conflict as a whole, because the rocketfire spiked immediately beforehand.

As regards the politics of this offensive however, it is in fact a piece of obfuscation to present this one dimensional number in analysis anyway. I'm not saying it shouldn't be presented -- just that without detailed breakdown its only relevant to the conditions in southern israel and nothing more. The political significance of the rockets fired during the ceasefire was completely different than those fired before - those fired during the ceasefire were fired without Hamas' support, but Israel might claim, proved Hamas' were not competent at maintaining order. That's because they weren't fired by Hamas. No choice of statistical timescale could make one variable (quantity of rockets) faithfully present the behaviour of many political actors with complicated relationships —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.203.142 (talk) 02:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

infobox- moh casualty number

It should be a lot more clear in the infobox that this number comes from the Palestinian government, such as ".. killed according to the Palestinian ministry", and we should include an independent figure too. Otherwise it can be misleading, this figure doesn't have to be factual. 64.91.118.41 (talk) 22:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It's hard, nearly impossible to get an independent figure since no foreign journalists are allowed in the Gaza Strip yet. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's true, but we can go by estimates from some human rights groups or the UN. Has Israel given a figure yet on civillian casualties? If we include the Palestinian figure, we should include Israels as well, (both aren't independent). I would have complained about the same thing if right now only Israels figure was included, and not the one from the Palestinian authorities. 64.91.118.41 (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The Israel figures are completely from the Israeli side too, and there's even a debate about the number of people who are really injured (not shocked). --Darwish07 (talk) 23:17, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Commented out Qatar statement returned

I've added Yesterday to the International Law, in the "By Palestinian militants" section:

• "Qatar Minister of Foreign Affairs stated that "The pretext of Israel concerning Palestinian rockets cannot deceive people", stressing that the occupation of Palestinian territories was the cause of the rockets. He also stated that ending the Israeli occupation is necessary to restore calm. "

but it was commented out, suggesting that this statement belong to the "By IDF forces" section. I'll return it back to the "By Palestinians" section cause I think it belongs there. If someone have problems about this, please discuss below. --Darwish07 (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The by idf is meaning that the allegation is directed at the idf so if it goes it goes there i think. But I think this should just go in the international reactions part, he is not really qualified to give this opinion, not when we have multiple UN quotes and HRW and things like that. Nableezy (talk) 23:58, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Nableezy that this statement does not belong in the Violations of International Law section, but not because of reliability, rather simply because of content. The statement does not deal with VOIL: it makes no allegation of that sort, nor does it refute such an allegation. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Sources for total number of Israeli dead and wounded

I found a page that lists all 4 Israelis killed by rocket and mortar fire:

• http://www.israelemb.org/Operation%20Cast%20Lead/Website4.htm

They are listed in the middle of the page. One is a soldier. Here is the list:

Since December 27: Four Israelis have been killed by rocket and mortar fire from Gaza.

Dec 27, 2008 - Beber Vaknin, 58, of Netivot was killed when a rocket fired from Gaza hit an apartment building in Netivot.

Dec 29, 2008 - Hani al-Mahdi, 27, of Aroar, a Beduin settlement in the Negev was killed when a Grad-type missile fired from Gaza exploded at a construction site in Ashkelon. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 29, 2008 - Irit Sheetrit, 39, of Ashdod was killed and several wounded when a Grad rocket exploded in the center of Ashdod. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 29, 2008 - Warrant Officer Lutfi Nasraladin, 38, of the Druze town of Daliat el-Carmel was killed by a mortar attack on a military base near Nahal Oz.

This explains the confusion between the number of civilians and soldiers killed. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Translation from Hebrew needed

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/HP_487.html#1/837/770

I have been told on my talk page that this article has some kind of total. Can someone translate? We really need a reference for the infobox. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I think I should introduce to my dear friend of many years, this friend got me through college, google :)

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrg.co.il%2Fonline%2F1%2FHP_487.html%231%2F837%2F770&sl=iw&tl=en&history_state0= Nableezy (talk) 00:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't see any totals on the translated page though. Maybe there are articles on that site that total the number of Israeli physically injured/wounded. That is the reference we need most.

I found an updated total of Israeli dead in this BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818577.stm --Timeshifter (talk) 00:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

New source for total Israeli wounded found

OCHA oPt (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory).

• http://www.ochaopt.org
• Protection of Civilians Weekly Report. 1-8 January 2009. "more than 80 Israeli soldiers have been injured since the ground operation began." --Timeshifter (talk) 01:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Civilians, women and children

Anyone else think that the box should say the civilians dead are only women and children? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaiserkar (talk • contribs) 00:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No, cause we are sure that there are definitely male civilian casualties, despite what what's his name from the UN thinks.--Tomtom9041 (talk) 01:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Are they? On the Israeli side, civilians include anyone not in uniform.VR _talk 01:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Oooh. I just saw the ref:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict#cite_note-un2009jan8-16. SO it appears we have exact numbers for the women and children. I suppose we could add them in brackets. What do the others think?VR _talk 01:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

There are charts and many details in the just-released weekly report:

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_protection_of_civilians_weekly_2009_01_08_english.pdf

I think it merits inclusion in the infobox. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I've been arguing this point for several days now. I think its a significant point that none of the civilian counts include men. This is a distinction that ought to be made. I thought that the MoH was counting men too which is why I stepped back a bit but the newest UN report makes it clear that they don't. I strongly support a note stating that civilians only include women and men. Thrylos000 (talk) 01:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

This has all been discussed before, with the same result. Are there no male civilians?--Tomtom9041 (talk) 01:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes there are male civilians, which is why it is important that we note that the counts do not include any possible male civilians, that they are only counting women and children. If you dont want to use the MoH report, which by itself is bs, then you have to include the fact the UN is not counting any possible male civilians in their counts. Nableezy (talk) 02:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Last time someone pointed out that there also may be female combatants. This is the only counter-factual to not making clear that A) the casualty count is in essence a count of women and children, and B) therefore it is a likely minimum. Someone with more knowledge of Hamas might like to say if they ever use female combatants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.203.142 (talk) 02:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

And it is bs that you dont have the MoH numbers because you are questioning their reliability only because they are Palestinian, yet you do not impose any such restriction on whatever the Israeli government report. The Israeli governments word is taken to be gospel while a Palestinians is shit. Why exactly can't we just cite the MoH number and with a note that they cannot be independently verified? Is it not enough that they cant be independently verified because the Israeli government, in contravention to an Israeli Supreme Court ruling is refusing to allow foreign press into Gaza? Nableezy (talk) 02:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

You know I added this link a week ago, hoping it might help with our discussion, not for the article itself. But I don't think anybody saw it. Unfortunately it was archived within about two hours of my posting because the section mirrored an already open discussion about casualties. But men were partially included, it was just that UN did a very rough estimate and, for the most part, excluded them. So we can't really say men are completely excluded. Well we can say it but it probably isn't true. --JGGardiner (talk) 02:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Oops. Forgot the actual link.[2] --JGGardiner (talk) 02:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so by that perhaps we could say women and minors, but it is still not counting any adult men. The possibility remains for men who are civilians that are not counted and women or older children who are militants and are counted, either way the ambiguity is cleared up by accurately representing the sources and not just calling the count the civilian count. Nableezy (talk) 02:20, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The article that I included says it did count some men: "North of the city, the agency [UNWRA] attempted to get a more complete count by including adult men who were not wearing dark-blue police uniforms and whom community members identified as noncombatants." So men are obviously grossly undercounted but not excluded completely, at least by the UN.

"North of the city, the agency attempted to get a more complete count by including adult men who were not wearing dark-blue police uniforms and whom community members identified as noncombatants." I've not seen a UN estimate from their situation reports state civilian casualties. The most recent one, as nearly all the rest only cites women and children (Totaling 303). Thrylos000 (talk) 02:24, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Incidence of key words is unbalanced

Israeli says ongoing rocket fire from Gaza is its reason for launching the offensive. The words "Qassam" and "(Palestinian) rocket(s)" appear a total of 58 times in the article. Meanwhile, Hamas says the ongoing blockade by Israel is its reason for launching the rockets. The word "blockade" appears only 12 times throughout. Is this a neutral article? RomaC (talk) 02:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The mention of the Palestinian rocket attacks is frequent because they are not just limited to the time before the conflict. Hamas and other Palestinian militias fire rockets everyday in retaliation to daily air/artillery strikes by Israel or vice versa. Maybe the mention of Qassam attacks could be slightly decreased in the Background section (haven't even read that section myself yet), but nonetheless counting how many times it's mentioned compared to the word "blockade" is not a way to judge the neutrality of the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, I should have focused more, excuse me. It's exactly the "background" section where this presents a problem, as that section is where readers will hope to find out what precipitated the conflict. There, "rocket" is mentioned 25 times and "blockade" is mentioned 4 times. Suggest edits tor neutrality in this section. RomaC (talk) 02:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Ahhhh, I see now. I apologize for my ignorant reply then. I just read it and the background section seems fairly neutral, but perhaps the bottom paragraphs of the "Extension" sub-section could be slightly reworded in order to achieve full NPOV. We should work on that part specifically. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

By this logic, the article is also unbalanced because the word "Israel" occues much more frequently then "Hamas". Usage of words, not mere frequency, should be the criteria of determining objectivity. 208.100.138.69 (talk) 03:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

What about "tank" or "jet"? shouldn't you count those in?--Omrim (talk) 03:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Also I strongly oppose any edits on the basis of "word counting". Please bring examples for biased phrases before editing. We're not counting words, we're reporting facts, and each word appears in a factual context. For example, the word "rocket" is mentioned several times in the context of Hamas so called abiding by the truce by not firing "rockets". I wouldn't assume it is this phrase you want to see deleted. Hence, bring concrete examples and let's discuss.--Omrim (talk) 03:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

As a general point though I do think there is merit in RomaC trying to be deterministic here in an attempt to assess neutrality. We can argue about details, methods and so forth (and probably get nowhere) but I for one support this kind of approach because it can identify potential problems to be discussed. In fact for interest there is a research project that attempts to do this kind of thing going on right now at a university in Israel. It's quite interesting. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

We are readers not statistical analysis machines. Decontextualization is common of POV pushing. I can understand lack of balance in the article, there is indeed lack of balance. But this is not the way to go around fixing it.--Cerejota (talk) 03:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

You can, others may not judging from the numerous decontextualized statements editors make on both sides. But your point is true and fair comment. My point really was just that it doesn't hurt for someone to highlight apparent disparities in language usage using simple methods from time to time as a sort of reality check. Let's be honest, there's a demographic problem in en-wiki and the number of devoted editors is quite small so you can end up with a POV version of genetic drift. Anyway, I'll leave it there. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

"Psychological Warfare"

The Psychological Warfare section is a bit questionable. I wouldn't call roof knocking 'psychological warfare'. It's a technique designed to limit civilian casualties. See: [3], [4]. I've changed it, but I'd definitely be willing to have a discussion if there was a consensus against it. Bsimmons666 (talk) ^Friend? 02:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

UNSC resolution 1860: immediate cease fire

Well, hopefuly this is the end to it. Is it custom to put it in the infobox as "result"?--Omrim (talk) 03:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Do both parties respect it?VR _talk 03:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

There hasn't been a result until the hostilities have ended, though this definitely deserves its own section. Nableezy (talk) 04:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Date by date

The section 2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict#Humanitarian_aid_deliveries resembles the date by date entries we had in the "Development" section, until they were rightfully moved out to Timeline of the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. The section should have a similar fate, with its contents summarized here.

However, I'm wondering if we should create a new article for the Gaza humanitarian crisis (and move a lot of the humanitarian stuff there), or just move this date by date content to the timeline article?VR _talk 03:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Topic of the article (pointy as pointy gets)

A very worrying edit to the lead was introduced, which clains this conflict was "accelarated" rather than begun on 27 December 2008. This would be a major re-purposing of this article, and given the attempts to WP:POVFORK "Operation Cast Lead", very worrying. To be clear, this article is about the specifics

We agree that the current title might not be the best, but it is the best neutral alternative a rough consensus has allowed. Ambiguities regarding its title should be fixed early in the lead, and hence the specification of the conflict "starting on". Context that this conflict is part of a wider conflict is given by wikilinking to the Parent of All Parents of articles in this topic: Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A discussion of title alternative is ongoing, and discussion should be had there. We have no deadline.

I personally see that continuing beating of this dead horse into a mushy pulp as evidence of some editors insisting on establishing a point of view. Under advisory of this article being under sanctions precisely because of large scale flounting of the editing process by means of disruption, please stop. To show your unhappiness with the consensus by unproductive editing is pointy as pointy gets. Thank you for your time. --Cerejota (talk) 03:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but you are just wrong about this. The article is named 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza Conflict. It is you who are trying to WP:POVFORK the article to Operation Cast Lead. I want to the article to reflect its title. If it were indeed about Operation Cast Lead then you can say it began on 27 December 2008, but since it is NOT about that it is inappropriate (ie WRONG) to claim the 2008 conflict began then. This is an issue of reality simply. Once your title is changed then change the wording. In the meantime it is simply ridiculous to have it read the way you would have it. Sorry. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

All comments regarding the lead belong at Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, please move them there. Cheers, VR _talk 04:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

humanitarian crisis

i just noticed this line

"U.N. spokesman Chris Gunness said We've been coordinating with them (Israeli forces) and yet our staff continue to be hit and killed.[220]"

and the quote is in italics and not in quotes. this should probably be changed, no? Untwirl (talk) 04:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

done. Untwirl (talk) 05:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Alleged violations of international law misrepresentation

It makes no sense whatsoever that the violations for the IDF is around double the size of the hamas violations. It's common sense that a terrorist organization violates much more laws than a democratic state(israel). Everyone knows that Hamas has been the source of much critisism for their many human rights violations.these include:

-Targeting civilians
-launching rockets towards civilian areas
-killing their own people (caused by misfiring of mortars)
-using it's civilian population as human shields
-not allowing media coverage for certain events they don't approve of (such as killing their own people)
-stealing aid
-stealing doctors from civilians
-attempting to capture IDF soldiers
-stashing weapons in civilian houses
-telling people to go to targeted houses and using civilians because they know Israel is too humane to kill them
-......
the list goes on. I suggest that either the IDF subsection is shortened or peple try to lengthen the hamas section of human rights violation so thzat the article is more truthful. I alraedy started doing this but i don't have the time to do it all on my own. Thank you. (Raphmam (talk) 04:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC))

• Totally agree. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

What you refer to as "common sense" is, in fact, a POV. Moreover, when you say "everyone knows", you are again referring to a particular point of view. The point here is to cover what has already been reported by mainstream sources. Without adopting any particular position on this issue and without attempting to delve into the reasons for this, it must be conceded that mainstream sources have focused on Palestinian casualties and violations of international law by Israeli forces. That is why the section on violations by the IDF needs to be larger.Jacob2718 (talk) 04:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

No, as I explained above it is common knowledge. I even listed examples. All the mainstream media sources I have been reading have been mentioning mostly hamas human rights violations. It seems like the "mainstream media you are referring to may have there own POVs and are not really that mainstream. Wikipedia should definitely not adopt a position on this situation like you said. That is the exact reason the idf part needs to be shortened and the hams part lengthened. It demonstrates a clear POV to have have the israeli side's violations double that of a terrorist organization. All you need to do is open your eyes and see all the media sources that allege human rights violations on the israeli side.(Raphmam (talk) 05:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC))

Hi, there was (is?) a debate about this but the archive bot seems to suffer from some sort of obsessive compulsive cleaning disorder or else it's using the time system of a rapidly rotating planet rather than earth. Have a look in archive...er...hang on...yes it's 7 here. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• "I suggest that either the IDF subsection is shortened or peple try to lengthen the hamas section of human rights violation." I think that many would see that as a violation of WP:UNDUE.VR _talk 05:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree VR. If the Palestinian section isn't lengthened than it is definitely a violation of WP:UNDUE. (Raphmam (talk) 05:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC))

White Phosphorus Again

Some editors have been particular concerned with the possibility the WP is being used in Gaza in an anti-personnel capacity. I have not been following this conversation too closely so I'll refrain from commenting for the time being but perhaps this article] from the Times (London) deserves attention: Gaza victims' burns increase concern over phosphorus

Excerpt: "There were indications last night that Palestinian civilians have been injured by the bombs, which burn intensely. Hassan Khalass, a doctor at al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, told The Times that he had been dealing with patients who he suspected had been burnt by white phosphorus. Muhammad Azayzeh, 28, an emergency medical technician in the city, said: “The burns are very unusual. They don't look like burns we have normally seen. They are third-level burns that we can't seem to control.”...Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian war surgery specialist working in Gaza, told The Times that he had seen injuries believed to have resulted from Israel's use of a new “dense inert metal explosive” that caused “extreme explosions”. He said: “Those inside the perimeter of this weapon's power zone will be torn completely apart. We have seen numerous amputations that we suspect have been caused by this.”"

but also: "Human Rights Watch had no evidence that Israel was using incendiaries as weapons." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thrylos000 (talk • contribs) 04:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

"The Gaza Massacre"

Moved to Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict/Lead.VR _talk 04:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It has been debated to death in Archive 10. --Darwish07 (talk) 05:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Word, some people refuse on acknowledging simple basic facts with plain sources when presented to them, to remove a phrase is simple censorship on the basis the some dont think the arabs should be calling it this, the argument that arabs are calling it this has been presented and proven, but still some feel the must disrupt. Nableezy (talk) 05:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

youtube as a source?

i had started a section for this but it got archived rather quickly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict/Archive_10#youtube_as_a_source.3F

i noticed that vr made an edit with regard to youtube not being a good source and wondered if you could also look at this one. Untwirl (talk) 04:55, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello, youtube is generally not a good source for several reasons. Many times videos are open to interpretation. Also, anyone can post things there. Also, not everything on youtube is notable enough to be in an encyclopedia.

Finally, I have not seen any argument/fact on youtube that is also not published in major newspapers or other reliable sources. So let's use these papers, and not youtube.VR _talk 05:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Name change Proposal: Israel's Assault on Gaza 2008-2009

Time Magazine calls the so-called conflict "Israeli's Deadly Assault on Gaza" [5] and also "Israel's Gaza Assault" [6]

I think this is a suitable name for this event because the term conflict is broad and when has it never been conflict between Gaza and the Israelis? --68.123.141.153 (talk) 04:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Time Magazine referred to a specific attack on Gaza City, not to the entire conflict which takes place in the Gaza Strip and southern Israel. If you want my general opinion about adopting names and titles from the press, you can see what I've just written under "Arabic Interwiki" on this page (at the bottom of that long paragraph). DrorK (talk) 05:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Women and Children in Info Box?

This edit, again by BobaFett, who I've twice before mentioned has carried out questionable edits without discussion removes women and children casualty numbers from the infobox. He says "BobaFett85 (Talk | contribs) (This is already all mentioned downstairs in the casualties section,the infobox is here to cite numb. of combatant KIA from both sides and the numb. of civilians killed,everything else goes downstairs)"

I would like to open this for discussion. I for one support the format where women and children casualties are stated in the infobox. Please discuss your opinions below. I encourage Bobafett to reconsider his unilateral approach to editing this page. Thrylos000 (talk) 05:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I second the call for Bobafett to join the talk page while editing, so as to address the concerns of users. He should also look at the section below.VR _talk 05:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I also support since adult male civilians are not included. Damn, I though we already discussed this like three times. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, please state from where you are going to take reliable sources about the women and children who were killed. I know Israel publish this kind of data, but Hamas don't publish his casualties, so we don't know for sure how many of the dead are combatants and how many are civilians. Furthermore, why women and children and not civilians in general? DrorK (talk) 05:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't exactly get what you're saying in the first two sentences, so I won't comment until a clarification. However, as for the last sentence: It would be misleading to the reader when he reads the civilian casualty number and then thinks those are all the civilians killed. These are just the stats for women and children, why the men lack mention, I don't know. It must be clarified or the reader might think the rest of the 760+ killed were militiamen. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I strongly agree that it must be made clear when the counts reference women and children. The UN publishes this data daily, recently it has been citing the PMoH. Sources are not the problem. I was specifically referring to the inclusion of this data in the infobox as Bobafett's edit removed it. Thrylos000 (talk) 05:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Infobox inclusions

There are a couple of issues.

• 4 UN envoys have been killed since the start of the conflict.[7] Are they Palestinians, or included in the Palestinian casualties? If yes, that's ok, if not then they need to be mentioned separately.
• This edit[8] keeps repeating itself. The source for these deaths, according to JP, is Hamas. It was agreed that Hamas isn't a reliable source: Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict/Archive_6#Is_Hamas_a_reliable_source.3F. If the consensus has changed, someone should remind me. Even if it is, than these 35 deaths are likely counted as civilians (or unknown) on the Palestinian side. We don't differentiate between Israeli soldiers killed by Hamas, and Israeli soldiers killed by Israeli tanks, I don't see why it should be any different for Palestinians.
• Should Palestinian women and children be mentioned as reported by UN?

That's it for now.VR _talk 05:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes for the third point and as for the second, those allegedly killed by Hamas were killed purposely unlike the Israelis who were killed by accident. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Is the PDF file a UN official report or an UNRWA report? UNRWA reports usually reflect the Palestinian view. I'm not saying the Palestinian view is incorrect, but it should be checked and compared to other resources. DrorK (talk) 05:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

So you think that we should single them out, but not single the Israelis killed in friendly fire out? I'm assuming that those 35 deaths (if happened) are already included in the death toll, and there's no evidence to say the contrary (or maybe I'm missing something). Finally quoting the Hamas killing of Fatah members, using Hamas sources, gives legitimacy to Hamas as a reliable source. Is this what we want?VR _talk 05:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)