Talk:Kilogram

Bold edits

Kbrose, I think your series of edits was a bit too bold. Your edit summary had items like “copyedit, term 'stability' is ambigous”. Note that such basic terminology is not only perfectly scientifically accurate for any unit of measure in the physical sciences, “stability” is the term used by all the metrology world’s papers to describe the issue with the kilogram. The job of any good encyclopedia is to educate readers on the basics of a subject and properly prepare them for their studies elsewhere. Let’s try to to dumb this down too far, shall we?

As for slapping {cite} tags all over it, the article is going to be far too footnoted if every single assertion in the entire article has to make reference to the same set of cited papers. Citation 8, 10 (the central Girard paper), 11, 12, and (especially) 18 are the notable citations this article uses. It would be nice if you actually read these papers (which you clearly did not) and then go to this article and do a more selective job of deciding what really requires yet another citation. Usually, one citation to a given paper per section of the article ought to suffice.

I note, for instance that this article originally had a hidden editors note for curious editors who might like to know the basis for the statement that “none of the replicas equals exactly one kilogram.” That hidden note stated “<!-- the closest is Hungary’s K16 at 1 kg +12 µg (Girard) -->”. I see that you chose to bring that verbiage out into the article as visible text and then slapped a {cite} tag on it!?! Baffling. First of all, note the parenthetical (Girard) in that hidden editors’ note. What in the world did you think “Girard” means? Are you not even reading the citations that are already all over the article? Moreover, that edit seemed wholly unnecessary on a number of fronts. The effect was to add text to an article and then question your own text (after you stripped out and ignored the accompanying citation to Girard). I’m sorry, perhaps you have your reasons for editing the way you do, but in a collaborative writing environment, such a style smacks of editing laziness. If you add text to an article, I suggest you do your own citations and not leave it to others to do all the “dirty little detail work” for you. Even after you un-hid the text (and stripped out the obvious citation), it would still have been clear enough that such an assertion is buttressed by Girard’s paper detailing the results of the third periodic verification, which started the whole metrology world’s concern over the kilogram and is the central paper on which the whole “stability” section is based. Typically, common sense suffices in technical writing.

Note also, Kbrose, that articles like Kilogram don’t obtain GA status by having gapping flaws in their lead sections of all things. GA status certainly doesn’t mean that articles are in any way perfect and can’t be improved, but they do mean that Wikipedia’s best experts on proper, Wikipedian-style and form and proper technical writing techniques have gone through the article and that a number of editors were quite happy with it. So, once again, your slapping an {intro-tooshort} tag on the article (so it has a little “dust broom” icon at the top) seems far too bold as it is clearly entirely contrary to the consensus view. One of the attributes for which Wikipedia is famous is its pithy, clear leads; it has served Wikipedia well. Greg L (talk) 21:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

glossary

It is not common practice for Wikipedia articles to include "glossaries" of perfectly common terms. This is what wiktionary has been designed for. As a reader, I feel treated as a moron if an article text is graced with wikilinks that do not take me to dedicated articles but instead to a "glossary". No doubt the intention is most well-meaning. I see there is even a html comment, "this glossary is a necessary thing for this particular article. It is a unique circumstance and the remedy, a unique color for links to this section, makes reading this article a better experience"

I do not understand why this particular article should be considered in particular need of a glossary, or how anything discussed in this article qualifies as "unique circumstance". I recommend just doing away with the glossary as misguided. --dab (𒁳) 16:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

• Wiktionary isn't up to the task in this particular case. Note how the various definitions frequently refer to each other. It would be a thoroughly tedious for readers to keep all these relationships straight while bouncing around from place to place within Wiktionary. Note too that this article achieved GA status with the glossary in place. That, of course, doesn't mean the article can't be improved. What it does mean is that many experienced editors pored over the article and recognized the need for a glossary in this instance and also recognized how cumbersome and impractical it would be for the information to be dispersed throughout Wiktionary. Glossaries in certain publications exist for a reason (notwithstanding the existence of dictionaries): convenience for the reader. Greg L (talk) 00:01, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

None of those definitions are particularly arcane. I don't see the need for this glossary. Some of these terms like 'IPK' are already defined inline in the body of the article. The majority are obvious to any English speaker and rather insulting to one's intelligence. A number are incorrect definitions to clarify poorly written text in the article itself are also included. If it's not clear from the context that 'prototype', 'sister copy', or 'replica' are referring to the IPK, that's an error in the article's body and needs to be fixed. These terms are not defined in relation to the IPK and a glossary is where you define domain-specific terms, not clarify poor writing. Even completely non-technical people I know have no trouble reading this article. 174.97.235.154 (talk) 23:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused as to whether this article is in American or British English. Is the confusion regarding the correct spelling of "litre" (in British English) a result of an over enthusiastic bot or the all-pervading spell chucker? Or is the article lifted direct from the US Wikipedia in some way? Drg40 (talk) 08:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm equally confused about the American/British spellings. Particularly as both "litre" and "metre" are spelt in the international/standard/French manner in their own articles. Can we have the decision to use "liter" and "meter" revised? Dayveday (talk) 02:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Fruit juice picture

I have reinstated the fruit-juice picture - many articles that discuss SI units of measure have examples of the unit in of measure in question. Rather than create a new section Visualising the kilogram, I felt that the picture was sufficient. Do other editors feel that a new section should be added to the article, that the picture should be ledft where it is, that it should be moved elsewhere in the article, that an alternative picture should be included (iff so, please supply the picture) or that it should be deleted? Martinvl (talk) 06:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The containers are in no way familiar to me. The only thing in the picture that helps is the 1L marking on the containers. There is no sense of scale in the photo - nothing to compare the size of the containers to. --JimWae (talk) 08:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion this picture should simply be removed, and I nearly did it myself before Greg L did. We already have two pictures visualising the unit: one in the infobox and another under "Stability". Perhaps we should say more clearly that for all household intents and purposes a litre of any beverage is exactly a kilogramme. And I would agree with illustrating the fact with fruit juice. But definitely not with a marketing photo that shows a representative choice of products of a single brand. The need for such a photo isn't sufficiently high to warrant such a problem. A photo of several brick-shaped (not gable-top) tetrapaks/combiblocs of milk and juice of several brands might be more acceptable. Hans Adler 08:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The "1 litre" text is the important part of the picture - the brand might be obscure - the text "1 litre" is not. By all means replace this picture with one that is more readily understood by readers on both sides of the Atlantic, but until you do this, please leave it where it is - it is not better than nothing.

Regarding other comments, the picture in the infobox should in my view be modified to show a metric ruler (or at very least one with both metric and imperial scales). Also, since it duplicates the picture of the IPK, only one of the pictures is neccessary - neither picture actually conveys to the reader a readily-understandable visualisation of a kilogram.

Martinvl (talk) 08:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure that you got the gist of my comment:

The picture is spammy, and it isn't necessary. If and when a more acceptable picture is found or created, that picture can be added. (I will keep my eyes open. Perhaps a photo taken in a shop will do.) But this picture needs to go. This is not an article about the wide range of excellent fruit juices sold under the Tymbark brand. Hans Adler 09:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I am more than happy for this picture to be replaced by something more suitable. I agree that it is verging on spam, but it was the best that I could find in Wikipedia Common. I look forward to it being replaced by a better picture - meanwhile it does perform a role in reminding readers that a litre of juice has a mass of approximately a kilogram - moreover many readers are familiar with the concept of a litre of juice, but very few have had the privillege of visiting the BIPM laboratories in Sevres and even fewer of actaully lifting the IPK. Martinvl (talk) 10:21, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

File:SokiTymbark.jpg

For the record: the subject of this discussion. A pretty advertisement of colorful Tymbark fruit juice packages that does nothing whatsoever to convey a sense of proportional scale or the volume of a liter.

• There is clearly no consensus here for keeping the picture. For the reasons stated in my edit summary when I removed it the first time, as well as for the reasons stated above by others, the article is far better off without it. The second sentence of the lead explains that a kilogram is close to the weight of a liter of water. Your argument that the photo illustrates the liter is spurious since at the resolution in the placed image, one can't even discern that the package is marked as containing “1L” nor is there anything else in the image to provide a sense of scale. As such, the picture doesn’t illustrate “liter”; it merely illustrates “colorful juice package” and adds no value whatsoever to the article.

  I see no reason in the world for A: an advertisement for Tymbark juices to remind people of what juice cartons look like, and B: such a needless picture shoe-horned into the history section (inane); or C: a create a whole new section dedicated to the proposition that a general-interest readership needs to be shown what pretty, one-liter Tymbark juice cartons look like.

  In a nutshell, the picture and its caption is not only unencyclopedic, but add no value whatsoever; most everyone who hasn’t crawled out from under a rock on this pale blue dot knows what a liter is. If you have a special audience, such as third-grade children to whom you want to expose a fundamental concept like the volume of a liter, there are a wide variety of more suitable sites on the Web.

  I supposed you could stage a special photograph showing a plain white bottle or carton marked clearly with “One Liter” and have it being held by an average size human for scale (crucial to convey a sense of scale and volume). But then, we come back to the fact that creating a whole new section in this article (or placing it in an existing section where it clearly is out of place) to illustrate the drop-dead obvious isn’t desirable since this article isn’t directed to third-graders. Greg L (talk) 19:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• P.S. Since, the second sentence in the lead states “…which is almost exactly equal to the mass of one liter of water”, and since “liter” is linked, clearly a much better place to illustrate the volume of a liter is over in the liter article; it currently doesn’t have any pictures or illustrations to convey a sense of the volume of a liter. There will clearly be push-back from the community over there against your current picture since it fails to convey one iota of the information you purport it conveys. If you can find a more suitable picture to convey a clear sense of the volume of a liter (relative scale to common, well-recognized objects is crucial), you could greatly improve that article, which is about a unit measure of volume. This article is about a unit measure of mass. Readers can follow the link to our liter article if they are galactically clueless about its volume. Greg L (talk) 19:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I had the same negative reaction when I saw the fruit juice photo: it looked like an advertisement. I almost reverted it immediately but I decided to sit back and see how other people reacted first. I'm not opposed to a quick visual aid that shows the tie between a liter of water and a kilogram mass, but this photo cheapens the article in an aesthetic way without adequately conveying the idea. I could live without any photo at all like this, but if there is going to be one, it should be something like a chemistry flask of plain old water measuring an obvious 1 L. A ruler or other common object showing its scale wouldn't be a bad idea also. CosineKitty (talk) 19:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Seriously, how ignorant do you think people are? I'm pretty sure everyone has a pretty good idea of how big a litre is without having to look at an advertisement for fruit juice. As someone already mentioned, there's no indication in the photo that those bottles are each 1L anyway. (Huey45 (talk) 11:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC))

Huey, I’m pleased you agree that we don’t need that fruit-juice image here. However, universal, galactic “ignorance” of the subject matter is not a prerequisite for illustrations to be added to encyclopedias. Our Dog article has a photo of a dog in the article’s lead. Photos (properly selected ones that speak to the subject matter) enhance our articles and make them look more professional. I would argue that 99.9999% of English-speaking adults who hop onto the Internet and come to Wikipedia know what a dog is; yet, there’s that picture in our Dog article. Notwithstanding the ubiquitous two-liter pop bottles at grocery stores, the fact that America hasn’t yet gone metric and non-technical people seldom measure out fluid volume in milliliters and liters, an illustration to convey a sense of the volume of a liter on Wikipedia is a good idea. What Martinv did was use a poor picture in the wrong place. Greg L (talk) 18:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually it may depend on the region. JimWae claims not to know this type of container, so perhaps he is not even used to the more traditional Tetra Pak bricks, or to anything sold by the litre? I don't know how it is in the US, but it seems possible to me. Metrication in the United States says the most common metric container is the 2-litre bottle, which seems rather odd to me. But if people don't know how much a litre is, then it will be because they are not used to 1-litre containers, and then a picture of a 1-litre container is not going to help. Hans Adler 13:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

More like it, but still no hand for scale

• As I mentioned in my postscript, above, there is probably a legitimate, encyclopedic need to illustrate the volume of the liter here on Wikipedia—but in our Liter article—not here on Kilogram. Wikipedia would start looking like a grocery store advertisement in the newspaper (or an explosion at the Disney animation studio) if every single time one of our articles mentioned that something was “equal to one liter,” it got slapped with a fruit-juicy picture of the wide assortment of Polish Tymbark juice drinks for benefit of American hillbillies who think a liter is what their hunting dog sometimes gives birth to.

  I think an illustration is needed somewhere; something along the lines of what CosineKitty suggested (a chemistry flask) would suffice. But, again, it belongs in our Liter article. Splitting hairs here: flasks are highly tapered so their total height doesn’t contribute much to their volume and that, IMO, makes them less than ideal. A one-liter chemistry beaker (illustrated) held in what is clearly an adult’s hand would be better. A hand or some other, well recognized, standard-sized object must be in the picture, otherwise there will be no sense of scale and we subvert the entire purpose of adding the picture: conveying a sense of volume for the benefit of someone who is unfamiliar with the liter. Greg L (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Automate archiving?

Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep ten threads.--Oneiros (talk) 21:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done--Oneiros (talk) 22:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Fine. Thanks. Greg L (talk) 21:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Importance

The Kilogram#Importance of the kilogram section appears to contain some questionably neutral statements, but I'm not sure. "The long-term solution to this problem, however, is to liberate the SI system’s dependency on the IPK by developing a practical realization of the kilogram that can be reproduced in different laboratories by following a written specification." in particular strikes me as advocating a point of view. It seems like original research to me, anyone disagree? Falcon8765 ^(TALK) 20:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see it so much as advocacy as a statement describing an activity, that the metrology community has been working on for several years, to eliminate the need for physical prototypes and for transfer standards. It has been long established for distance and for time, but mass has been more challenging. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:53, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The statement represents the overwhelming consensus in metrology circles. There's less consensus about what the written specification should be or when the change should happen (and the article reflects this), but very few people suggest that scrapping the IPK would not be a Good Thing at some point fairly soon. Physchim62 (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no particular opinion about the IPK, but was read the article and the section just popped out at me. Could we get a source or two demonstrating that it is the scientific consensus? And perhaps a minor rewording that indicates it is such? 20:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Citations to further buttress that the metrology world wants to liberate the SI system of its dependency on the last artifact? I second what Physchim62 wrote. Besides, if all the work being done on alternative definitions doesn’t drive home that fact, the CIPM’s latest resolution fully well does. Greg L (talk) 01:19, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone want to start work on making this a featured article?

I'm a big fan of Wikipedia but haven't contributed a whole hell of a lot, so maybe this is an inappropriate request, but would some of you big contributors (to this article or elsewhere) be willing to consider taking on the task of making this article a featured article? I just stumbled across it and really expected a gold star, especially since this is such a fundamental topic to science and is so well written, but I was surprised. Just a suggestion. Bantam1983 (talk) 06:16, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I might help a bit, but I am not particularly motivated because I don't consider articles on individual units particularly thrilling. The metric units are perhaps a bit better than the others in that their rich history is recent enough to be very well known. A counter-proposal: It might be worthwhile to bring the other metric units also to good article standard and get the entire set through the good topic process. After that there will probably be enough momentum to get a few featured articles and perhaps make the entire thing a featured topic. Hans Adler 07:07, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I was the main shepherding author who grew this article from its humble beginnings (history). I once had one of my wiki-friends nominate it for FA. That wasn’t too long after it had gone through the Good Article process, which wasn’t too bad of an experience. But I had seen what the FA process was like (not fun) and pledged that I wouldn’t lift a finger to help the article through the process. That was the end of that. Was that the right thing to do? Well, I come to Wikipedia because it is a fun hobby. If something isn’t fun, I avoid it. Just that simple.

And why avoid FA? I’ve done a few things on this article that aren’t seen in many other articles (maybe any other articles), such as the Glossary, which is desperately needed since many of the terms have a unique meaning in the metrology world and they also refer back and forth to each other; keeping all that straight by bouncing about in Wiktionary would drive someone mad. I find that Wikipedia has a lot of people who value conformity—even to the point of not best serving the interests of our readership. Frankly, the thought of having some wikipedian *experts* ride in on a mighty stallion with pouted lower lip as they wipe their white gloves over the article’s crevices sounds like about as much fun as being stuck on a deserted island with nothing but a knife and Jessica Alba (at least one could eat Rosie D’Donnel).^{{PC disclaimer}}

The FA experience is perfectly natural because people have egos and a volunteer wikipedian who has been anointed with *expert-hood* status by his or her social network desires to validate their social status by demonstrating that they can improve most-any article presented to them. Why would anyone not want to help an article achieve gold-star status by improving it in some way? But, just because something is perfectly natural (biological excretions are natural too), doesn’t mean it is 100-percent goodliness top to bottom.

Besides, when an article achieves FA and gets its little gold star from Teacher, it necessarily appears on the Main Page for a day and that would just result in a week of drive-by shootings by 9th-graders and dorks (more non-fun).

But with regard to your comment: I just stumbled across it and really expected a gold star, especially since this is such a fundamental topic to science and is so well written, but I was surprised, Bantam1983, I’m very pleased to hear of your reaction. While greatly expanding this article, I exchanged well over 60 e-mails with the Ph.D. physicist at the NIST who is working on the watt balance. He e-mailed me that picture of the watt balance. Since I have extensive experience designing PEM fuel cells, which use platinum catalyst, he even passed along an observation of mine to the BIPM about one of the solvents they use to clean the IPK and how that might well be responsible for the short-term (30 day) instability it exhibits after cleaning. I’ve certainly given this article my best effort and enjoy hearing from people who appreciate it; you made my day. Who needs FA with comments like yours? Greg L (talk) 01:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Formula layout

I'm not sure about other browsers, but in ye olde IE7 the present layout of the fixed-h based definition does not render at all well, with the lines running together to the point of illegibility. It might be worth exploring other layout options. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:30, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

• Still other editors complain that thinspaces don’t render at all well. Let me be sure we are talking the same thing. Are you saying this…

1 kg = c²/h = f

…isn’t looking right for you? How about for Firefox? I do understand that IE7 is awfully ubiquitous and the issue you are seeing should be addressed if it is endemic to IE7. Could you please confirm that other computers (those of your friends) using IE7 render the same way? If so, we should certainly find a better way. Greg L (talk) 18:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

P.S. If the problem is appearing on other computers running IE7, please copy every instance of a formula that isn’t rendering well for you to this talk thread. Greg L (talk) 19:17, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

No that line seems fine, the problem was with blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ( 299,792,458²⁄6.62606896×10⁻³⁴ ) hertz.”  yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda, where the denominator runs into the following yaddas.

It appears that the following lines of text are equispaced below the 299,792,458, rather than below the lowest descender. Perhaps some kind of stylesheet error?

On the other hand, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ( 299,792,458²⁄6.62606896×10⁻³⁴ ) hertz.” 

yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda does not run together, but suffers from discontinuous text after the quote.

I'll check later to see what IE8 and Safari do. I've only got access to one IE7 machine at work.LeadSongDog come howl! 19:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh. That expression {{nowrap|1=( {{frac|299,792,458²|{{val|6.62606896|e=-34}}}} ) [[hertz]].}} uses the {val} template within the {frac} template. That results in a superscript within a superscript, and produces a superscript within a subscript. In other words, the browser has to be able to support double-levels of super- and sub-scripting, i.e., ( 299,792,458²⁄6.62606896×10⁻³⁴ ) hertz. Those fractions have been here for a while (years) and I’ve looked at them on piles of computers in different places on everything from Barbarian-OS to OS X and every browser imaginable. I never saw them incorrectly rendered. I hope something new hasn’t cropped up in IE7. It just may be that the IT dudes at your company have things shortchanged there. Let me know. Greg L (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps. When I view the rendered page html, I see <dd>No that line seems fine, the problem was with blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah <span style="white-space:nowrap;">( <span class="frac"><sup>299,792,458<sup>2</sup></sup>⁄<sub><span style="white-space:nowrap">6.626<span style="margin-left:.25em">0</span>68<span style="margin-left:.25em">9</span>6<span style="white-space:nowrap;margin-left:.15em;margin-right:.15em">×</span>10<sup>−34</sup></span></sub></span> ) <a href="/wiki/Hertz" title="Hertz">hertz</a>.”</span>  yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda, where the denominator runs into the following yaddas.</dd> <dd>It appears that the following lines of text are equispaced below the <i>299,792,458</i>, rather than below the lowest descender. Perhaps some kind of stylesheet error?</dd> if that helps at all... LeadSongDog come howl! 20:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

As Nixon (I think) once said: Let me say this about that. I’ve got a Mac that can launch into Bootcamp so it can run Barbarian OS (XP-Pro). There, I looked at the {val}/{val}-within-{frac} construction using both IE8 and Safari. In Safari on Windows, the fraction looks gorgeous. In IE8 (again, on XP-Pro running under Bootcamp on my Mac), the superscripts within the fraction are readable but very small. Surprisingly, selecting a larger font didn’t make those doubly-superscripted numerals any larger. My brother sent me screen shots from his Genuine Windows®™©^(yuck) machine when running IE8 and Firefox. HIs IE8 results looked identical to mine: very small, but still readable. The fraction looked perfectly fine in Firefox on his XP setup. And, of course, the fraction looks gorgeous in Safari running Mac OS X (as it does in Safari under XP-Pro). I also spoke with my programmer friend. He has a triple-boot Mac laptop that can boot into either OS X, Windows XP, or Linux. With Ubuntu on Linux and using the Opera browser, the fraction looked fine and perfectly readable to him. My friend uses Opera because a version is available for each of the three OSs he uses. According to him, Opera is rather weak with its rendering engine so if something appears fine in Opera, it will appear fine in most any other browser. If the fraction is just flat broken for your IE7 system at work, I think it is something unique to that machine. If you can, try Safai; it’s really fast and produces gorgeous text. Greg L (talk) 00:29, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, no option on what browser I use at work, its all locked down. At home, IE8 on Vista renders it just fine (with the same html). Safari on my iPod Touch also does a nice job of it. I didn't think to check it without logging into WP at work, I'll try that Friday. Thanks for the feedback.LeadSongDog come howl! 03:17, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

You are most welcome, LeadSongDog. Yes, let me know if your user settings (as evidenced by not logging into Wikipedia) resolve it for you; that would be interesting. Greg L (talk) 16:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Not the user prefs, it's the same without logging in. In any case, the effect is font-scaling dependent. With IE7 View/Text-size/Medium (or larger) the lowest part of the denominator runs into the next line. At reasonable modern screen resolutions, however, View/Text-size/Small (or Smallest) is illegible. Mine is at 1280x1024. Any idea where the font size and spacing would be found for this? I'm using the default vector skin. In Largest, it renders with full overlap of the next row!LeadSongDog come howl! 19:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

trying a tweak, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 299792458Template:Sup2×1⁄(6.62606896×10⁻³⁴)  hertz.” yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda does not run together until Largest, and scales well.

Alternatively, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah 299792458Template:Sup2/(6.62606896×10⁻³⁴)  hertz.” yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda avoids the problem entirely. Perhaps less elegant, but legible. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I only use XP Pro for some special medical software to analyze gastric data from those little pills patients swallow that transmit pH, temperature, and pressure. If it weren’t for that program, I wouldn’t have Bootcamp installed on my Mac. So I know enough about Windblows to give myself a stomach ache. Since the formula has been in the article for years and hundreds of thousands of visitors with IE7 read the article without complaint, and since IE7 is being replaced by IE8 and the IT people at your work will eventually catch up on that too, and since this rendering bug effect doesn’t appear with any other browser, it seems to be unique to that particular computer at your work running IE7. So do you think it is worth futzing over? Greg L (talk) 01:12, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

See Internet_Explorer#Market share history overview by year and version. IE7 is with us for some time to come, like it or not. But if others using it have no problems, that's fine, I'm not worried about my specific workplace. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:30, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Do we need extensive discussion and examples about the energy and frequency equivalent of a kilogram?

I count 300 words plus a long note (note 20) to convey the following idea: "When you convert a kilogram to energy with E=mc^2, it's an awful lot of energy, compared to everyday energies. When you convert it to frequency (or "sum of photon frequencies") with f=mc^2/h, it's an awfully high frequency, compared to everyday frequencies." I don't think any of this discussion is sufficiently important or relevant for this article and I suggest taking it out.

People know intuitively how much mass a kilogram is, and that's what the kilogram is---a mass. Saying that 1kg corresponds to a lot of energy helps you understand the meaning of E=mc^2...not helps you understand "1 kg". "E=mc^2" is a different article. Likewise for frequency. Building intuition is great, but the intuition we want to build is intuition about how massive is 1kg...not how big its energy-equivalent is, not how fast its frequency-equivalent is, not how hot its temperature-equivalent is, not how delicious its Calorie-equivalent is, etc. The numbers are too big and the connection to 1kg is too indirect and unfamiliar to be helpful from an intuition point of view, in my opinion.

There's also this "sum of photon frequencies" idea ("The expression “photons whose frequencies sum to…” is a way of specifying the total energy in any collection of photons and means the sum could theoretically be that of a single photon with the specified frequency, ten photons each averaging one-tenth the specified frequency, a hundred photons each averaging one-hundredth the frequency, and so forth....") These descriptions and examples seem quite excessive, in my opinion. Photons are not part of how the watt balance works, photons have nothing to do with the kilogram. The only purpose of these sentences is to define Planck's constant for people unfamiliar with it, and can't we do it more efficiently? We can just say, "Planck's constant is a fundamental constant in quantum mechanics, that functions as a conversion factor between energies and frequencies. For example, a photon with frequency f has energy E=hf." But I don't see the reason for discussing groups of actual photons that correspond to 1kg (from a chemical oxygen-iodine laser, or the YAL-1 laser, etc.), because groups of actual photons are not how the watt-balance (or any other definition) works.

I'm not opposed to just a sentence or two that says "One concrete way of thinking about the equation f=mc^2/h, is that f is the frequency of a hypothetical photon whose energy corresponds (via E=mc^2) to m=1kg. This hypothetical photon is just hypothetical -- everyday photons have far lower frequencies -- but this description is valid in theory. In practice, the watt balance would be used to measure the correspondence between frequency and mass."

I shortened those descriptions a while ago but Greg L put them back, so I thought I should explain my reasoning and ask what other people think. Thanks!! :-) --Steve (talk) 04:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with User:Sbyrnes321. The current text is incorrect - the actual proposed defintion of the kilogram is The kilogram, kg, is the unit of mass; its magnitude is set by fixing the numerical value of the Planck constant to be equal to exactly 6.626 06X × 10^-34 when it is expressed in the unit s^-1•m²•kg, which is equal to J•s. - see here. The discussion about the energy equivalent of one kilogram has a place, but should be reduced to one sentence - maybe there is scope for for a new article about the implications of e=mc². Martinvl (talk) 08:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I partly agree with you two. Now…

Do you guys think I just made this stuff up as I corresponded with the guy at the NIST? I exchanged some sixty e-mails with him while working on this article. I e-mailed him drafts of what I was working on in 2007 and he reviewed that entire paragraph multiple times before signing off on it. He also e-mailed me a bunch of articles from Metrologia (by the Institute of Physics Publishing) so I could write here exactly what was in those. Those are the sources for all this stuff. But those papers aren’t available on line. What is available on line is stuff like that Powerpoint presentation you just provided. So Steve, please stop ‘playing physicist’ and stop advancing arguments about what you think is going on (like Photons are not part of how the watt balance works because the guy who’s building the watt balance understands it about a million times more than you do and you are just flat wrong.

But, yes; I agree with you about the definition and your posts here made me see that. Up until a month ago, all that stuff was absolutely correct before the October recommendation (only a month ago). Before then, there were two proposed definitions in Metrologia 42, “Redefinition of the kilogram: a decision whose time has come”: one was very generic and would stop at fixing the Planck constant and simply define the kilogram in the following terms: “The kilogram is the mass of a body at rest such that the value of the Planck constant h is exactly fixed at [x value]”. That definition, back in 2007 when I first expanded the article, wasn’t considered to be the likely winner.

The Metrologia paper also had a more “applied” definition that (of course) fixed the value of h but also stepped through the extra math associated with the only known way of practically applying that definition: “the mass of a body at rest whose equivalent energy equals the energy of photons whose frequencies sum to ( 299,792,458²⁄6.62606896×10⁻³⁴ ) hertz.” That is how one applies the definition so the math logic more explicitly traces through to the watt balance. That was the definition the guy at the NIST thought would go forward. (Maybe he was a bit too close to his watt balance). And that added specificity introduces nothing new; 299,792,458² will always be the equivalent energy of a kilogram no matter how reduced the new definition is. Ergo…

So I have some work to do to ensure that the “definition”—as proposed by the CIPM, is distinctly presented as the “definition” and how that definition translates to the watt balance (where, believe it or not, all the physics and math in the watt balance traces back to photons and their energy).

The above is my take on the matter. Although I’m not exactly *new* to this stuff, I’m not positive and I fully well expect that the metrology world has more precise language to explain this stuff. So I’m going to run the new text by the Ph.D. physicist at the NIST. The game has changed with the CIPM’s recommendation and it is time for him to review the text to ensure everything is absolutely correct in light of the CIPM proposal. And remember, the CIPM proposal is just that: a proposal; nothing is a done deal yet. So the new wording will properly cover the bases without being unduly predictive of what will or might come out in the wash. I’ll make a quick revision today and then run that by the NIST guy for comment. It will probably take several days to get his feedback folded into the article.

As for the expansive explanation of the sum of photon frequencies, it’s a hard concept to grasp and you guys are quite familiar with it and understand it fully. Please try to remember that this article is optimized for the 12th grade reading level and assumes a general-interest readership that has no advanced expertise in physics and math. That stuff has been in the article for years without complaint even though it receives about 2,200 hits per day. Attempts to strip it down would just make the concept abstruse for much of our readership.

Oh, BTW. Please note our Fuzzball (string theory) article. I don’t work like many wikipedians where I assume I’m so darn smart that I can read crap out of Popular Mechanics and look at Powerpoint presentations and then pull Original Research stuff out of my butt. I had many e-mail exchanges and spoke with Dr. Samir Mathur (the guy who advanced the theory) on the phone. He reviewed and signed off on every darn thing in that article. He also offered to assign a graduate student to help me if I wanted to expand the article with advanced-formula-stuff (I didn’t). Nevertheless, I had to later defend the article against a wikipedian who wasn’t a published reliable source and didn’t have a Ph.D. in astrophysics who thought he Had It All Figured Out®™©, knew better than Samir, and wanted to editwar over the nature of fuzzballs. (*sigh*) Greg L (talk) 16:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

P.S. This might take an extra day or two. The first thing I notice is that Powerpoint presentation is far from authoritative. Since the 2006 CODATA value for h is 6.62606896(33)×10⁻³⁴ J·s, it isn’t surprising to see the value shown in the Powerpoint presentation, which has it rounded to 6.6260693×10⁻³⁴ J·s. Nevertheless, I’m going to find out the true facts before anything ‘goes to print’ and get citations to sources like Metrologia. I just now wrote the guy at the NIST regarding this.

I also have to go get the {val} template fixed. Someone screwed around with it; that should have been grouped like “6.626 0693” instead of having a single hanging digit. Greg L (talk) 16:47, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Update I’ve already received a response from the NIST researcher. Explaining the theory of operation underlying the watt balance and how it exploits gravity isn’t easy under the best of circumstances. Doing so using language that is accessible to a general-interest readership, and without sacrificing scientific rigor is double-tough. Clearly, the watt balance does not directly deal with Planck constants, nor does it directly measure the energy equivalence of a kilogram (21 megatons of energy would blow out the resistors). He’s gonna noodle on it some and is also looking up the exact wording from the CIPM. Greg L (talk) 19:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

There is an article Watt balance which describes the workings of the device. The reams of trivia about the implications of E = mc² are out of place in this article and hides a some useful stuff. Martinvl (talk) 20:33, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Once the true facts are in, it’ll get trimmed as it is revised. What’s there now doesn’t “hide” any useful stuff. But what we do know for sure at this point is we can clarify what is “proposed future definition” vs. what is “no longer proposed for a definition”. I was tempted to go out on a limb and use that the wording in the Powerpoint presentation on the assumption it has the correct value (level of precision) for h. But it is a truly ancient document dating to 2007. The Ph.D. researcher is still digging up the actual proposal so it is better to remain mute on the value until it is confirmed with a good citation. Other citations will come as they’re made available (a matter of days). About an hour ago, I received a bunch of abstruse, overly-advanced stuff from the Ph.D. researcher at the NIST. As I’ve done before, I have to digest what he gave me, try to translate it into plain-speak that is (far more) accessible to a general-interest readership, and run drafts by him to see if my translation maintains scientific rigor. It is too difficult a process, but requires some time and can be a major imposition on the Ph.D., particularly now that things are in a state of flux over there. Greg L (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I trimmed the watt balance section to the bare bones based on a couple of e-mails I received today from the watt balance guy at the NIST. The part that reads “electric power would be directly identical to mechanical power by definition rather than being a derivative” came from him but I re-worded what he wrote so it needs to be double-checked. I’m gonna ask him to review what’s there and use that as a starting point for any future growth. Once things have settled down a bit with the basic facts, then we can focus on citations, the first new citation being for the CIPM’s actual proposal. Greg L (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I have added a "Main article" link to the Watt balance where I think that a lot of the material that has been added by Greg L belongs. Martinvl (talk) 12:20, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• The guy at the NIST wrote back that what is in the article now on the watt balance is pretty good. He is still going to get back to me with the exact wording of the CIPM recommendation. That shouldn’t be too hard as he will be in France for the next two weeks. Greg L (talk) 00:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Short-term instability - possible mistake

"What is known specifically about the IPK is that it exhibits a short-term instability of about 30 µg over a period of about a month in its after-cleaned mass.[18]" - from what I think is the BIPM's source for this, http://www.bipm.org/utils/en/pdf/Monographie1990-1-EN.pdf, it seems to be more like 4 µg over a period of about four months for the IPK (figure 14 in that document). The proceedings linked in footnote 18 give no source for the much higher value. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.153.99 (talk) 06:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The current citation buttressing that text is as follows:

Report to the CGPM, 14th meeting of the Consultative Committee for Units (CCU), April 2001, 2. (ii); General Conference on Weights and Measures, 22nd Meeting, October 2003, which stated “The kilogram is in need of a new definition because the mass of the prototype is known to vary by several parts in 10⁸ over periods of time of the order of a month…” (3.2 MB ZIP file, here)

As mere wikipedians, we are not reliable sources who can second-guess the CCU’s report to the CGPM. Your observation is interesting. But merely pointing to a report written by Girard and making the observation that it doesn’t mention the 30-day instability does not mean that the CCU was not privy to information other than the report to which you linked. Greg L (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

ampere-force section

Could someone double-check that my changes to the ampere-force section [1] are correct? Also, would this proposal, if accepted make the coulomb, not the ampere, a base unit? CS Miller (talk) 19:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, thank you. It was an in-depth analysis. Remember though, ampere-based forced has no chance in the world of being adopted; it is a dead-end road. Whereas an expanded treatment of the watt balance is in order since it is the air apparent for taking over from the IPK, an abstruse and intricate treatise on a dead-end technology is not. Moreover, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia directed to a general-interest readership; an eight-step analysis linking newtons to amperes to coulombs, etc. (a multi-step process that needed other editors to double check your work) was not sufficiently accessible to a general-interest readership. Sometimes, using simple plain-speak and keeping it short is more effective. Greg L (talk) 22:47, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

POV?

The tone of the discussion of the Watt balance and alternative new definitions seems to be very biased in favor of the Watt balance. Recent press accounts appear to show that the metrology community considers the alternatives (or at least the silocon shpere approach) to be equally viable. Should we try to fix the POV? -Arch dude (talk) 01:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Can you give some references please? The CCU (who are a committee of the CIPM and therefore who have a lot of influence within the BIPM) favour basing the definition on Planck's constant (and therefore the watt balance by implication). Martinvl (talk) 06:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure. Here: Nature News:Kilogram adjustment courts controversy. -Arch dude (talk) 15:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The watt balance is the only alternative that has a prayer and is the only alternative to the IPK seriously being considered now. The article you pointed to makes just that point and clearly shows that the watt balance is the only promising show in town. The other approaches have been abandoned. The work on the Avogadro project continues just to correlate the magnitude of the mole with results from the watt balance. The other approaches ground to a halt years ago. The question is only if and when the watt balance gets good enough to replace the IPK. If the watt balance doesn’t make the cut, then the metrology world will stay with an SI system founded upon a hunk of metal longer still. If you have evidence (which I know you don’t because no one could) that one of the other approaches is actually seriously being considered by the professional metrology world and the BIPM, tell us about it.

In the mean time, we don’t give equal play to the other approaches just because they have their own subsections in this article and that somehow makes them deserving of equal weight—go tell that to the German researchers who worked on the atom-counting approach with gold atoms (a total dead end). You think I just made this stuff up? I exchanged over 60 e-mails with the Ph.D. researcher who’s making the NIST’s watt balance when growing this article from the über-crap it used to be. Everything is sufficiently cited.

If you have evidence that some other approach is seriously being considered—even if it’s Popular Mechanics (right beside the story about flying cars that are coming soon)—let us know and we’ll see if we can solve the apparent conflict over the basic facts with a more authoritative citation. Greg L (talk) 00:55, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Hey, I'm just a non-professional with an interest in science. The article I referenced seems to indicate that the silicon-polishers are still in contention against the watt-balancers. You appear to be correct with respect to any other approaches, but our WP article makes it appear that the silicon-polishers are just as misguided as the atom-counters, and this is not supported by the NatureNews article I referenced. From that article it appears that that Avagodro Project would contend that they are trying to fix the Avogadro number and determine Plank's constant experimentally, while the Watt balance works the other way. I'm too ignorant to see a difference here. -Arch dude (talk) 01:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

The fact that you have exchanged 60 e-mails with the researcher is prima facie evidence that you should not be excersise great care when editing this article. WP is supposed to be a tertiary source. This means that the editors are supposed to rely on published, citable secondary sources, not primary sources such as personal communications with researchers. I hope you do keep editing, but editors with personal knowledge have a special obligation to rigidly adhere to WP policy in this regard. Let be soften that. Scientifically knowledgeable editors such as yourself are a precious resource, and I personally prefer to give such editors a lot of leeway. -Arch dude (talk) 01:20, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I try my best to not abuse the privileged access I have to the horse’s mouth. I did the same at Thermodynamic temperature. Do you see that first citation there, to Daniel C. Cole? I exchanged numerous e-mails with him and he fed me text for me to build upon and reviewed my text before I posted it. Taking abstruse “Ph.D.-talk” and converting it into plain-speak that A) is accessible to a general-interest readership, and B) maintains scientific rigor, is not easy. Not easy at all. Same too with Fuzzball (string theory); I not only e-mailed the Ph.D. researcher behind that theory (Dr. Mathur), I spoke to him on numerous occasions while writing that article. As for this article, every single important point in the article is properly cited—most of it to Metrologica. What every source (including the researcher) are saying is that no one in the professional metrology world contemplates changing the definition of the kilogram from a platinum cylinder that doesn’t oxidize to a silicon sphere that does; that would be one giant step backwards, not forwards. But, as you pointed out, the “silicon polishers” (the Avagodro Project) are providing crucial information to cross-check the magnitude of the dalton so that the mole can be cross-checked with the kilogram, which can be cross-checked with the mechanical watt, which can be cross-checked with the electrical watt, so there is a single definition power and that definition will—when acceleration of gravity is factored into it all—delineate the kilogram. Greg L (talk) 01:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S. With regard to the silicon-polishers are just as misguided as the atom-counters, the Avogadro Project first started as an attempt to redefine the kilogram in terms of the molecular weight of silicon. I see now that the original citation is now broken, but the second source in that citation still works so this article from ACPO in Australia still reflects the original ambitions of the Avogadro Project: As the Web site still says (before they take that one down too) is as follows: “The proposition of the Avogadro Project is to redefine the kilogram in terms of the Avogadro constant”. Though the Avogadro people might strenuously object (there is healthy competition for funding for projects that keep Ph.D.'s with something to do), it is clear that no one is seriously proposing any more to define the kilogram in terms of atom-counting approaches. So now, the Avogadro Project serves a valuable cross-checking to discern the value of the Avogadro constant, which in turn will help determine the proper value to use for the Planck constant and the magnitude of the kilogram. Greg L (talk) 01:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

My reading of the Nature News article is that the article is NOT discussing the question "what is the best way to redefine the kilogram?", it is discussing the question "if the kilogram is redefined by setting a physical constant to a defined value, what should the value be?". The latter is controversial because different experiments are inconsistent with each other. So I guess I agree with Greg L, this source does not show that there is any problem with the article's attitude that the watt balance approach is the universally-preferred candidate redefinition. Unless we can find another source... --Steve (talk) 07:04, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I think that this discussion is best carried out on the talk page of New SI definitions. BTW, I have added that article to the SI template. Martinvl (talk) 09:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

NPOV issuse in article.

An editor is insisting that unsourced and uncited text remain in the article. namely this"

This small difference, and the fact that the mass of the IPK was indistinguishable from the mass of the Kilogram of the Archives, speaks to the scientists’ skills over 225 years ago when they made their measurements of water’s properties and fabricated the Kilogram of the Archives.

Without any source to back this up it cannot remain in the article. Please read WP:V and find a WP:RS for it before re-adding. HumphreyW (talk) 03:45, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Could I ask everyone to remain calm here, and take a step backwards for a moment? This doesn't appear controversial text, so it won't do any harm to leave it (with the {{fact}} tag—which I've added) for a while to see if someone can improve it.  GFHandel.   03:56, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

No kidding. User:HumphreyW: Please don’t editwar over a common sense point. This edit you are just insisting on is not supported by Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia:Citing sources states that citations are needed “for any material challenged or likely to be challenged.” It doesn’t state that citations are needed for stuff HumphreyW doesn’t like. That text has been there for years without challenge for one reason: it’s obvious that scientists who worked to an accuracy of 25 parts per million way back in 1799 did darn good work. I see now, that as a result of your incessant insisting on citing common sense, GFHandle tried to find a middle ground where people can now run around looking for a citation out of Readers Digest that states the drop-dead obvious. Greg L (talk) 04:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I doubt that "improving" it is going to help much. I don't see this text as adding any value to the article about the Kilogram. This article is not about the relative skills of scientists of the past. The text is merely speculation, it gives no reference point for comparison about other levels of accuracy for other units of measurement. It is just handwaving and unencyclopaedic. HumphreyW (talk) 04:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, how is this common sense? It is not common sense for me, I have never studied the history of metrology, I have no idea of the relative merits and difficulties for 1799 engineering. More handwaving here, this is not something "everyone just knows". And if everyone really does already know it then why put it in the article? HumphreyW (talk) 04:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

• Well, I’m a mechanical engineer with 15 patents. So what’s “common sense” to me might indeed be strike others as “baffling beyond all comprehension”. You might try more judicious use of the {fact} tag rather than that splendiforous [delete] key. Common sense is no-doubt a subjective thing and is most properly gauged by the middle of the bell curve of our readership (which no-doubt underlies why that text was there unchallenged for so many years). Greg L (talk) 04:35, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm just pleased that the horrific scientific-accuracy-kilogram-based-3RR saga of 2011 has been averted. Whew. I'm guessing that lots of editors watchlist this article, so let's wait to see how others react.  GFHandel.   04:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

(after sleeping on it) I revised that sentence so it makes no mention of anyone’s “skill”, states a pure fact, and makes the direction of the error explicit (the Kilogram of the Archives was a bit heavier than it should have been) so as to better serve the interests of the readership. It now simply states the facts: that the scientists two-hundred-plus years ago made the Kilogram of the Archives so it was heavier than a liter of water by the weight of a rice grain. Perhaps some will think “that certainly speaks to their skill” whereas still others might think “how crude.” It is what it is. Greg L (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Some slack for the guy who has worked the hardest here?

As an uninvolved editor, might I suggest that we give Greg L. (who I do not know except from reading here) a bit of slack on the writing of this article? He has obviously studied the subject more than anybody else we've found, and is well-motivated to produce a good history. Though we strive for NPOV, that only means fair representation of POV's in the published literature, not literal NPOV. So far as I can tell, Greg L. has not departed from this very much. I do not mean automatically giving Greg L. anything he wants-- I'm just suggesting that we remember that we're lucky to have him as a reviewing expert on a subject which would be rather technical and dull for the rest of us, if we didn't have him. Personally, after reading the history here (most of which he's written), the subject managed to "come alive" for me. That says something, since like most people, my eyes tend to glaze-over when confronted with the details of scientific metrology and standard-making. So, try not to drive the guy off, okay? SBHarris 17:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I need help to correct a statement

This statment about the proposed new definition occurs in the article:

"... it would be defined in electrical terms in a manner that is directly traceable to just two fundamental constants of nature."

This statemant is not correct. The Proposed new definition fixes the Plank constant. From New SI definitions:

Proposed definition: The kilogram, kg, is the unit of mass; its magnitude is set by fixing the numerical value of the Planck constant to be equal to exactly 6.62606X×10−34 when it is expressed in the unit s−1·m2·kg, which is equal to J·s.

The Plank constant relates seconds, metres, and kilograms. There are no "electrical" terms in the proposed new definitions. The watt balance employs clever electrical techniques to determine the mass of a test sample according to this definition, but those terms to not occur in the definition. There are a total of three additional "fundamental constants of nature" here:

• Planck's constant h is exactly 6.62606X×10⁻³⁴J·s.
• The speed of light c is exactly 299792458m/s.
• The ground state hyperfine splitting frequency of the caesium 133 atom Δν(¹³³Cs)_hfs is exactly 9192631770 hertz.

It is not instantly obvious to me how to correct this statement. I think we need to re-write a small segment of the article. -Arch dude (talk) 00:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I changed the statement in the main article. I'm sure that my change is technically correct, but I would appreciate it if someone will review it to see that it conveys the correct information to a general reader. -Arch dude (talk) 23:45, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

better picture needed

A picture showing the IPK with an inch scale (and especially without a metric scale) is not exactly what this article needs... Is there a copyright issue with this one or why hasn't it been used? --Espoo (talk) 12:44, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Well spotted Espo. There is a copyright statement associated with the picture - [The BIPM holds copyright on the textual and multimedia information available on this website, which includes titles, slogans, logos and images, unless otherwise stated. Reproduction is authorised, except where otherwise stated, if the source is acknowledged and if the information reproduced is not subject to any distortion, addition or mutilation. Copyright of any third-party materials found on this website must also be respected.. I believe that this does not prevent the picture being used in Wikipedia, provided that the correct acknowledgements are made. Martinvl (talk) 13:08, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The existing image was computer-generated from a computer model by User:Greg L. Perhaps he will be willing to generate one with a Metric ruler? I am not a lawyer, but I'm not comfortable that the BIPM copyright is compatable with WP's copyright rules, since the BIPM license is more restrictive than CC-BY-SA. For example, CC-BY-SA permits derivative works, which would include distorted images. -Arch dude (talk) 17:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

• Are you serious, Espoo?? All this because you had to look at an inch-based ruler? We’ve been through this before. Tell you what: Why don’t you Espoo, contact the BIPM and get them to send you a picture of the IPK? The one you proposed shows a vault and some glass bell jars; it doesn’t illustrate the IPK whatsoever. What’s the caption supposed to say? (“The IPK is in here somwhere—trust me”)?

  Did you know I contacted APCO to get the silicon sphere photo. I exchanged a dozen e-mails before the head of the lab finally released a picture that was on their Web site into the public domain and released it to Wikipedia. You can do the same thing. Let’s see… what’s it take for those BIPM guys to even open the vault to gain access to the IPK? Three keys possessed by different individuals! Good luck.

  As to why there is an inch-based ruler, Wikipedia is a collaborative writing environment where all content is generated by volunteers who (sometimes) have day jobs. I work for a living (I don’t contribute to Wikipedia from my parent’s basement). I’m a medical researcher and am an R&D engineer. I happen to have generated that entire virtual photo studio in a CAD program for a medical device and recycled the studio for the purpose of creating an illustration to illustrate “IPK”. The rest of my response on this subject is addressed simply by referring you to the last time someone was deeply offended by the juxtaposition of the foundation of the metric system and and a unit of measure used by Americans. See Talk:Kilogram/Archive_5#legend of first picture.

  One of the things mentioned there is this: You might also notify the other non-English versions of the Wikipedia Kilogram articles (these: be-x-old, cs, da, ka, sw, It, hu, mn, ja, sr, ay, bs, es, it, ru, and zh-yue), as well as GA Tech University because of this press release)—all of which are using this very same image I created. We can’t assume that the editors responsible for these image placements were all properly aware of this “inch-based ruler” issue when the editors at these all-metric countries made their individual decisions to also use the image. And just think of the millions of poor unfortunates who were shown an American inch alongside the last artifact underpinning the metric system and were given no advance warning to have young children leave the room. We certainly can’t afford to have any readers suffering a forehead-hemorrhage after they realize the true nature of that ruler!

  As to creating another ruler in metric: no. The CAD program I own has a bug in the way it applies decal-type numeric legends to 3D solid models; numerals with closed letters, like 4, 6, 8, and 9 leave voids in their loops that blocks out the wood-grain decal underneath. Go back and take a look at that ruler. Notice how there aren’t any numerals behind the IPK in the darkness? That’s because the “4” and “6” weren’t working and the “2” and “3” are hidden behind the IPK. I figure a $3000 CAD program that I actually own and didn’t pirate (*sound of audience gasp*) is good enough for a volunteer contribution. I thought the couple of evenings I spent making that über-realistic ruler in the first place for my medical work was—you know—good enough (foolish, fooshish me). The research and effort I’ve put into this article—like pretty much all wikipedians—is a labor of love. All hobbies are. Reactions like yours is a big buzz-kill. So…

  Your options are as follows:

1. Contact the BIPM and get them to send you a picture that actually shows the IPK and release it into the public domain. This is my preferred alternative, BTW. Oh… and as I recall, I contacted the BIPM years ago when I first started on this article with that very question and they didn’t even respond; (like in the movie Ratatouille: “Sorry to be rude, but we are French.”)
2. Go get yourself $3,000 to $5000-worth of software and learn how to create virtual studios with strategically placed lights (mirrored objects are hard to light) and do a better job with a metric ruler and donate it to Wikipedia.
3. Get a rescue inhaler to cure your asthma attacks when you see an inch-based ruler next to a metric-something.
4. Send me $1000 for the one or two evening’s worth of effort of my horsing around making a metric ruler that doesn’t offend your metric sensibilities. That’s what it would take to get the “loving feeling” back to what is supposed to be a labor of love.
5. Hire some other CAD expert (because I might turn down the $1000 since I’m busy lately).

In short, try enjoying the look of the IPK. Now you know what is looks like. I dredged up the actual blueprints for the thing when I made that geometry. That there is an inch-based ruler behind it doesn’t really matter. Oh, please advise if there is an example of some work you contributed to Wikipedia that you are particularly proud of and which the rest of the Wikipedia world has copied because it fills a universal need. I’ll go inspect it with pouted lower lip and come whine about some beyond-trivial aspect of it and suggest something that is utterly inane to replace it. Greg L (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2011 (UTC)