Talk:Koniuchy massacre

Initial talks

Poorly marked up and needs a serious dose of NPOV from knowledgeable contributor. Ortolan88

The title itself is NPOV. -- Zoe

Why? Wehave massacre in Jedwabne and nobody never complained about it. szopen. There was massacre, so why calling it massacre is NPOV?

Since there are no arguments questioning the article I am going to remove NPOV statemant. Cautious 17:11, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Maybe Massacre in Jedwabne needs work too. Both of these articles are poorly marked up and need copy editing and both of them have an appearance of advocacy or unsettled issues. I don't know much about the terrible happenings on the eastern front in World War II, but I do know there were killings by partisan groups as well as by Russian and German soldiers and I also know that partisan groups often were organized by ethnic group. And, I am pretty sure that someone with good knowledge and a firm grip on the idea of NPOV could improve both these articles. Ortolan88

Removed edits

Ghirlandajo, why have you removed my edits again ? I'm particularly interested why this edit was removed ? --Lysy ^(talk) 16:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Because you removed my yesterday's edits without any explanation. You know that such behaviour is good only for spawning revert wars, and that's probably your intention when you make such outrageous edits as this one. Until you grow up and learn to edit properly, such edits will be promptly removed. Also, please stop adding Polish links and find some links in other languages, preferrably English, per my previous request. Otherwise, I'll have to remove your Polish links on the basis of Wikipedia:Links. I hope that you don't want to meet the New Year in pointless revert wars. --Ghirla | talk 16:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

All right, I'm afraid your response only confirms that you're reverting without checking the contents first only for the sake of revert warring. Now, since you have chaged "soviet partisans" into "Lithuanian and Jewish partisans", as if their ethnic origin was important, I'm going to add missing information about Russians among them and hope you will not remove it. By the way, all the sources mention only Jewish and Russian partisans in these units. Where did you get the information about Lithuanians from ? --Lysy ^(talk) 17:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Soviet partisans

Another question that I have is why are you removing all the references to the fact that the attackers were Soviet partisans ? --Lysy ^(talk) 17:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Because I haven't seen a single English-language ref that there were Russian partisans near Vilnius. How would they get there, I'd like to know. Seems like a typical Polish nationalist mythology. I'll revert until the reputable sources are provided. --Ghirla | talk 17:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the article has its references, it's enough to check them instead of reverting my edits, e.g. this one is in English and in the first sentence mentions that these were soviet partisans. On the other hand, if we admit Russian language sources in other articles, then what is wrong with Polish ? If you cannot read Polish and do not trust me, then you can always ask someone else to verify it for you. Not all the topics of Eastern Europe are adequately covered by English language literature, I'm sure you know this. --Lysy ^(talk) 18:26, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Now, that we have this explained, can you undo your revert, please ? --Lysy ^(talk) 18:40, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

3RR

BTW, Ghirlandajo, are you aware that with these reverts: [1], [2], [3], [4] you are over your daily revert threshold again. It's really more productive to discuss as above than fight so desperately. You are asking me to "do something more productive", yet you're reverting dozens of my edits without even bothering to check them. Maybe you could take a look as this recent version of mine as explain what was wrong there ? --Lysy ^(talk) 18:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

I have introduced several edits to the article today. The rationale is explained in respecive edit summaries. Please discuss here first if something bother you instead of reverting all of the edits without examining them again. --Lysy ^(talk) 21:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Renamed ?

I see the article was moved to Koniuchy Incident. Was there any consensus to rename it ? --Lysy ^(talk) 20:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I have moved it back. As this rename obviously is controversial, please use WP:RM if you want to move it to another name. --Lysy ^(talk) 00:16, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

Summary

User:Ghirlandajo insists on renaming the article into "Koniuchy Incident". Since he is reluctant to discuss it, I've started a WP:RM for him and hope the consensus will be reached either to move the article or to keep the original name. --Lysy ^(talk) 13:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

No consensus to move, the article was removed from WP:RM. --Lysy ^(talk) 20:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. Killings of several dozen people by forest bandits under obscure circumstances is hardly a massacre. --Ghirla | talk 13:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC) (the rest of Ghirla's discussion moved to the #Discussion subsection below, --Lysy ^(talk))
• Support. Should be incident, not massacre. KNewman 15:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is known as "Koniuchy massacre". "Incident" is only Ghirlandajo's invention here. Google has over 500 hits for "Koniuchy massacre" and no hit for "Koniuchy incident". --Lysy ^(talk) 15:56, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lysy--SylwiaS | talk 16:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Maybe incident as a descriptive name cannot be so widespread, but massacre is a POV term and should be used only in exceptional cases of the udoubted and large scale mass-killings. --Irpen 21:08, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
• Opposee-Killing aimed at destruction of whole village, including defencless women and children fills the criteria of massacre. --Molobo 23:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, based on WP's explanations of Mass murder and Massacre. Olessi 00:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I have never heard of this, but reading the article now about what happened, it sounds preposterous (and insulting to the memory of the victims) to call this a mere "incident". Gryffindor 02:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lysy, Molobo, and Olessi. Appleseed (Talk) 02:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lysy et al. Really, those 'rewrite history by changing name' attempts are kind of silly.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Unfortunately, the Polish editors have an annoying tendency to call every group execution of ethnic Poles a "massacre". This inflammatory term caused countless edit wars in the past, and will cause in the future. I'm not the first to point out that the term is highly charged with POV; read the comments above. Khatyn in Belarus was a real massacre, and we still don't have an article on this. P.S. What the heck its name in Lithuanian, Belarusian, Russian is? I can't find any refs to this occurrence outside this wikipedia. --Ghirla | talk 13:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

  Murdering civilians can hardly be called an execution. I also do not appreciate the nationalistic flavour of your comment ("the Polish editors have an annoying tendency").

  To P.S.: I have added the Lithuanian name to the article, you have just removed it and now you're asking what is the Lithuanian name :-) ? Have you actually read my edits before reverting them ? --Lysy ^(talk) 13:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

• Listing prematurely removed from WP:RM is restored until we get some statistically significant sampling to determine an outcome. This has nothing to do with the holidays. Whoever closed the vote prematurely simply haven't read the WP:RM policy which calls for a standard minimum 5 days voting with possible extentions if necessary to determine consensus.

  Quote: Requested moves may be implemented if there is a Wikipedia community consensus (generally 60% or more) supporting the moving of an article after five (5) days under discussion on the talk page of the article to be moved, or earlier at the discretion of an administrator. The time for discussion may be extended if a consensus has not emerged.

--Irpen 21:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

To boldfacing in the quote above by Lysy, please note that "or earlier" is related to "moves may be implemented". That is moves can be made swiftly if there is enough evidence to determine the consensus and not to close the voting for the lack of it. --Irpen 22:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was you who said above: policy which calls for a standard minimum 5 days voting, and now you're saying that the policy is related to "moves may be implemented". So what is it related to, eventually ? --Lysy ^(talk) 22:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't get the question. But to rephrase your own message you left at my talk, are you eager to close the vote because you prefer the current name? --Irpen 22:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

All right, what I meant was that in one sentence you call the policy to support your reopening the closed vote, and in the next sentence you explain, that the same policy does not refer to voting but only to implementation of the article move instead. This seems a little schizophrenic, therefore I've asked you to explain. --Lysy ^(talk) 22:30, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your complements and they evidently don't need a response. As for the argument itself, the policy issue is formulated at the 3-rd paragraph of the WP:RM page. If you and I read it differently because I am a "little schizophrenic", let's wait and see how others see the issue. I don't want to repeat what's already said and don't want to respond to the personal insult. Do you insist on the continued debate on the closure? If not, please turn to the issue itslef. --Irpen 22:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I certainly did not intend to insult you. I somehow hoped you'd explain your rationale, but since you're obviously evading this, I'm happy not to continue this issue any more. I'd like to encourage you to address the issues I've bulleted below, instead. --Lysy ^(talk) 22:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not sure why "massacre" would be seen as an "inflammatory term" ? It simply means mass killing of civilians or POWs. Murdering a village at night seems to perfectly match the term. What is wrong with this name ? --Lysy ^(talk) 13:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

• Dear Lysy! You were so fast in closing the Koniuchy massacre voting that it's not even funny. Please, keep in mind that this renaming issue will continue despite this whole no-consensus farse of yours. Sometimes voting takes weeks on certain issues, you should know better than that. It was very convenient to close the voting knowing that there is a 10-day holiday in Russia right now and there's no one here to cast their votes :). Try to avoid doing things like this in the future. KNewman 19:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. It was not me, who closed the vote. Check this edit.
  2. I don't see what holiday is Russia would have to do with this vote. Koniuchy is not in Russia, is it ? --Lysy ^(talk) 20:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• It's not for us to abitrarily invent new names for this event. It is known as "Koniuchy massacre", not a single source mantions it as "Koniuchy incident" and this is not a place for original research on established names. Period. --Lysy ^(talk) 21:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• There are also numerous examples of massacres involving much smaller numbers of victims. Consult the list of massacres. --Lysy ^(talk) 21:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Article not moved. —Nightstallion (?) 15:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent changes

1-I fail to see what relation is Khatyn to Koniuchy ? Both are different cases unraleted to each other in terms of who comitted the atrocity and where it happened etc. They were lots of massacres during this time Khatyn doesn't seem connected to this one in any way. The wordign also misleads by saying "one of these villages" after it says that villages were destroyed by SS-while Koniuchy were destroyed by Soviets not SS, so they can't be said to be "one of those villages".

2-According to IPN they weren't Lithunian members but Russian ones [5] the records of the investigation was added an authenticated copy of a situational secret report prepared by Operational Division of the Wermacht Command Ostland prepared on February 5, 1944 in Riga. From the content of the report it results that there appeared in Koniuchy "a medium size group of Jews and Russians" ... "36 inhabitants were shot, 14 were wounded. The locality was turned into mostly charred ruins." the inhabitants of Koniuchy, in relating the details of the raid, used interchangeably the descriptors Jews and "Ruskies."

3The fact of this "massacre" has not been recognized by any government except the Polish. I think this fits OR and is in fact irrelevant as Poland conducts its own research into this. Is there any statement of any government that denies it took place ? Otherwise it seems simply POV pushing especially seen in writing the massacer in "massacre".

4. It is a fact that partisans were of different ethnic group and they should be named but they were "Soviet Partisants". --Molobo 21:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if the introduction that many villages were burnt to the ground is necessary. The text should deal with this specific massacre not with other massacres. I suggest removing the whole introduction. I also think that partizans can be calles "Soviet", because that was the only thing they had in common. Definitely they cannot be called "Lithuanian", otherwise they could be confused with Lithuanian nationalists. Jasra 22:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The introduction seems to repeat a Soviet propaganda attempt to conceal Katyn Massacre, see here: https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art6.html Then, in 1969, Moscow did something strange that many believe was further calculated to confuse the issue further: it chose a small village named Khatyn as the cite for Belorussia's national war memorial. There was no apparent reason for the selection. Khatyn was one of 9,200 Belorussian villages the Germans had destroyed and one of more than a hundred where they had killed civilians in retaliation for partisan attacks. In Latin transliteration, however, Katyn and Khatyn look and sound alike, though they are spelled and pronounced quite differently in Russian and Belorussian. When President Nixon visited the USSR in July 1974, he toured the Khatyn memorial at his hosts' insistence. Sensing that the Soviets were exploiting the visit for propaganda purposes, The New York Times headlined its coverage of the tour: "Nixon Sees Khatyn, a Soviet Memorial, Not Katyn Forest." (The Times probably got it right. During the Vietnam war, the Soviets frequently took visiting US peace activists to Khatyn.) --Molobo 23:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to ask the involved parties to talk here instead of engaging in the revert war.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 03:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

OK. So what shall be done with the introduction. The introduction:

During World War II, thousands of villages in Russia and other Eastern European countries were burned to the ground and their inhabitants slaughtered. Khatyn, not to be confused with the Katyn Massacre murder of Polish officers, by the NKVD, which is probably the most famous such event with a similar name. does not contain the definition.

My proposal is:

One of many massacres taking place during the World War II. The Koniuchy massacre was carried out on the inhabitants of the village with the same name

Of course maybe the language should be improved (inflicted - intead of carried out?).

I do not think there is any good reason to mention Khatyn or Katyn in this place, but if someone considers it absolutely necessary it should be put at the end of the article rather than at the beginning. Jasra 13:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we can safely deleted the intro-the source I provided shows that there is heavy involvment of Soviet authorities to present Khatyn as significant while in fact it wasn't anything out of ordinary. The reasons for this are considered suscpicious. Also the village has nothing to do with Koniuchy. It seems like attempt of POV pushing of reader towards another unconnected massacre. --Molobo 17:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Molobo, I see again that you apply different standards when the victims were non-Poles. " there is heavy involvment of Soviet authorities to present Khatyn as significant while in fact it wasn't anything out of ordinary" is an extremely insensitive and horrific remark on your part. "Ordinrary"? I am saddened that the Polish community doesn't deal with such behavior of yours despite my repeated calls. Perhaps, some find comfort in using you as a loose cannon to advance some agenda. I hope not and this is just lack of oversight. Initially, I couldn't even beleive what I was reading was really written by a person from a country that had its share of suffering from the Nazi rule and a huge one. --Irpen 19:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry that I touched your delicate nerves but nobody denies such massacres but they are unconnected to each other and there is no reason here to bring another unrelated event to this article. As to ordinary, yes Khatyn was one of thousands of villages destroyed by German forces in WW2. An article on it is fine but I don't see in what special way it connects to Koniuch, different killers, different issue. I think you are overreacting. --Molobo 20:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC) Molobo, I see again that you apply different standards when the victims were non-Poles. Am I trying to delete Khatyn article or even writing something in it ? No. But here is an article about Koniuchy not Khatyn. --Molobo 20:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe Molobo's behaviour may be classified as a sample of Holocaust Denial. I don't think the wikicommunity should tolerate such a severe trolling. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 19:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Your rational and objective comments are as always welcomed Ghirla :) --Molobo 20:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The name

Note please that the village was in the Lithuanian Territory of Ostland Reichkomisariat at the time of the massacre, not Poland as Molobo had declared in a commentary to his previous edit. In the Baltic States (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia; as well probably Belarus as it was also in the Ostland) during the nazi rule the German names were used for major cities (where German names existed) and local names were used as official for all the smaller towns and villages, depending on in which territory they were. Thus, the official name was Kaniūkai (or, without diacritics Kaniukai, as the Germans does not use such diacrtitics). I checked some historical maps - the town was part of the Lithuanian SSR in 1940-1941 as well and a part of the Republic of Lithuania prior to its annexation into the Soviet Union. Thus, I am correcting some things in the article. I am not going to rename the article however as it seems that "Koniuchy massacre" gets somewhat more hits on google than does "Kaniukai massacre". As for the ethnicity of the partisans, Russians and (to a smaller extent) Jews made the bulk of them, but there most likely were Belarusians and Poles as well (information I have states Russians, Jews and some Poles as well). In general, in this particular area these were the nationalities that made the majority in perhaps all Soviet partisan units as well. I don't have great sources right now however so I am not correcting that for now. Similarly, I would like to note that English language and the standart of the article is bellow the Wikipedia standards, I hope someone who knows more about the subject will improve it. Burann 16:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Population

All Polish sources claim this was Polish village. E.g few villagers fought in the ranks of AK according to memories of

Tadeusz Truszkowski ps. "Sztremer" commander of V batalionu 77 p.p. AK

The names of the victims: 1. Bandalewicz Stanisław ok. 45 lat 2.Bandalewicz Józef 54 lata . 3. Bandalewiczowa Stefania ok. 48 lat 4. Bandalewicz Mieczysław 9 lat 5. Bandalewicz Zygmunt 8 lat 6. Bobin Antoni ok. 20 lat 7.Bobinowa Wiktoria ok.45 lat 8. Bobin Józef ok. 50 lat 9. Bobin Marian 16 lat 10.Bobinówna Jadwiga ok. 10 lat 11.Bogdan Edward ok. 35 lat 12.Jankowska Stanisława 13.Jankowski Stanisław 14.Łaszakiewicz Józefa 15.Łaszakiewiczówna Genowefa 16.Łaszakiewiczówna Janina 17.Łaszakiewiczówna Anna 18.Marcinkiewicz Wincenty ok. 63 lat 19.Marcinkiewiczowa N. (sparaliżowana, spaliła się) 20.Molis Stanisław ok. 30 lat 21.Molisowa N. ok. 30 lat 22.Molisówna N. ok. 1,5 roku 23.Pilżys Kazimierz 24.Pilżysowa N. 25.Pilżysówna Gienia 26.Pilżysówna Teresa 27.Parwicka Urszula ok. 50 lat 28.Parwicki Józef lat 25 29.Rouba Michał 30.Tubin Iwaśka (?)ok. 45 lat 31.Tubin Jan ok. 30 lat 32.Tubinówna Marysia lat około 4 33.Wojsznis Ignacy ok. 35 lat 34.Wojtkiewicz Zofia ok. 40 lat 35.Woronisowa Anna 40 lat 36.Woronis Marian 15 lat 37.Woronisówna Walentyna 20 lat 38. Ściepura N. - krawiec z miejscowości Mikonty.

In Polish links I could find the info that Poles were 80% of population of the village. What's more, the memories of the villagers (e.g Stanislawa Woronis, Jozef Bandalewicz) are in Polish. Edward Tubin, one of the villagers, even said that all villagers were Polish and around there were only Polish villages:

Kolejny świadek Edward Tubin, wówczas 13-letni mieszkaniec wsi (obecnie zamieszkały w Kanadzie), w wywiadzie udzielonym A. Kumorowi (w maju 2001 r.)   
wspomniał:
"A.K.: Koniuchy należały do Polski przed wojną, czy to była całkiem polska wieś?
E.T.: Polska wieś, wszyscy byli Polacy, żadnego tam nie było jakiegoś Ruskiego, nikogo tam nie było innego. Tam dookoła nas wszystkie wsie to byli  
Polacy. (...)" 

Szopen 14:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, you are right, I was confused by similar fate of another village - Bakaloriskes, which was Lithuanian inhabited. Sigitas 14:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

You do seem to play fast and loose with the facts. Apparently there was no Jewish partisan named Jacob Penner. The correct reference is probably to the partisan commander Yaakov Prener.

Poor and not-wikipedian article

This article is totally to re-write as it is extremely POV. Statements like Many Russian sources try to minimize the significance of this crime by stating that during World War II, thousands of villages in Russia and other Eastern European countries were burned to the ground and their inhabitants slaughtered. By doing so, they want to remove the uniqueness of this horrible crime and bury it in the general mayhem and killing of the eastern front. In Poland and Lithuania, the Koniuchy massacre is treated as one of the many examples of communist crimes against humanity. can't find place on Wikipedia. (Bagiddo 00:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC))

To correct all that kind of stuff you would have to go through every article dealing with any person, place or event from any territory that has been forcibly occupied over the last several millennia, and any person, dead or alive, who is in the least bit controversial. I am doing my best to help out, but I don't want to try to edit this one because I am not Polish, Lithuanian, Russian, Jewish or Belarussian and thus don't understand the mixture of sensitivities involved. Furthermore no-one remains to stick up for the partisans involved or is interested in putting across the viewpoint of the USSR, so articles like these are probably best left as semi-POV. Lstanley1979 (talk) 22:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The article reads like run-of-the-mill Polish national martyrology, not encyclopedic. The English is atrocious. There is no evidence to support the event even happened. IPN appears as an acronym before it is named, and the links to this organization shows their investigation into the "massacre" was carried out by press release (it really says that) and deposing former Polish Home Army partisans living in Canada. Again, none of this possibly semi-valid information is included. The link in the reference section to the Lithuanian article by Zizas is even more interesting. The article says Kaniukai was a Lithuanian village with a small number of Poles as well. The surnames in this article are Lithuanian (or Lithuanianized). It says the initial police reports by the Lithuanian officials called to the scene claim the village was attacked by Russians, Jews and Poles. An expedition to take revenge in a Polish village nearby never came off because cooler heads prevailed, the article says. It also mentions that the village was mentioned in memoirs by at least a few Jewish partisans who are presumably now dead and were never published in English. That is the best evidence so far that Jewish partisans were even involved, the wiki entry fails to establish that at all. As far as calling it a massacre, the Lithuanian article says Lithuanian police reports show a history of armed conflict between this village and the partisans in Rudniki Forest. The Jewish partisans cited in the Lithuanian article claim these villagers ambushed and attacked them repeatedly. The Lithuanian article surveys contemporary press reports and sources and puts the figure of those killed between 30 and 35. Additionally, it gives reports that one Soviet partisan was killed. The Soviet partisans called it a Nazi village and claimed to have killed at least two Lithuanian auxilliary police there. Another thing: the village was located inside the post-World War I borders of the Republic of Lithuania but was part of the territory claimed and occupied by Poland until 1940, when Stalin handed it back to Lithuania. The Nazis in Lithuania later annexed a portion of Belarusian territory in the region to Lithuania. The borders were readjusted after WWII in Belarus's favor within the Soviet Union but the village still seems to be just inside the Lithuanian border. Lida is not. Eisiskes (Eyshishok) is mentioned in the Lithuanian article as significant in the story, a town almost completely Jewish and completely murdered by Nazis and Lithuanians.

If the article in its present form can't be improved by the hotheads watching it, I think it should be deleted as hearsay and ethnic lambast. At least two of the links in references are broken as well. 78.60.98.100 (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The German article quotes original reports. Xx236 (talk) 08:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Small village, not a town

English language sources ignore elementary data. the town had organized an armed group to fight the partisans - civilians in the region were robbed by several partizan units, so they had to defend themselves, certainly not fighting the partizans outside the village with few obsolete guns, if any. Xx236 (talk) 12:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

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POV tag

In modern Polish historiography (which led to the politically appointed IPN investigating post 2001) - this incident is viewed as a massacre of helpless Polish civilians, emphasizing the role of Jews. However Soviet and Jewish accounts this is described in completely different terms - a raid against a village collaborating with the Nazies, hostile to the partisans, that was armed.[6][7][8] Our article at present is a one-sided modern Polish narrative which fails to present the opposing view of events.

See for instance this coverage of the modern historiography - Nazi Hunter: Lithuania Hunts Ex-partisans, Lets War Criminals Roam Free, Haaretz, 2008. The Lithuanian partisans, who operated under the aegis of the Central Partisan Command of the Soviet Union, had information that there was a German garrison in the village. After the fact, it turned out that the Germans had abandoned the place. In the battle that ensued, 38 villagers were killed, including women and children. In independent Lithuania, with a tendency to rewrite history after the disintegration of the Soviet Union, they describe this attack as a "massacre," and a special prosecutor opened an investigation..Icewhiz (talk) 07:24, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

More coverage of the modern "investigation" - LITHUANIA ASKS PARTISANS TO ‘JUSTIFY’ THEIR ACTIONS.Icewhiz (talk) 07:40, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

More - Tensions Mount Over Lithuanian Probe. Given that only three Lithuanians have ever been tried for wartime crimes against Jews — nearly 200,000 of whom were murdered — the ongoing investigation of Jews has not gone over well outside Lithuania. There had been rumblings before Kirkilas’s trip that the probes may be dropped, but the prime minister’s visit with Jewish communal officials only heightened tensions..Icewhiz (talk) 07:44, 14 March 2018 (UTC) Additional - [9] [10].Icewhiz (talk) 07:48, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I may well support your case and I'm going to ask you to ease up on generalizing phrases such as "Our article at present is a one-sided modern Polish narrative." There is no such thing as a single modern narrative from any country in the world. Just look at 'modern Israel' - or 'modern America' for that matter. There are as many narratives as there are people. Poland is the same as Israel and America in that way. We must not stereotype entire countries with broad brush-strokes. That's the non-prejudicial attitude Wikipedia policy and guidelines ask us to conduct ourselves with. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I apologize, indeed I was over-simplistic in the use of "modern Polish narrative" (which obviously also includes voices such as Bikont or expats such as Gross) - erring with the use of a stereotype. I meant - "modern, post-communist, nationalistic narrative advanced by some modern Polish sources" - obviously not all Poles agree with this. I do think it is important to note that this is a very modern narrative that is in some senses reactionary or reactive (in attempting to build an ethos of victimhood in relation to other groups).Icewhiz (talk) 12:49, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

John Zeleznikow

I have removed Zeleznikov. He is not a historian but "the Head of the Laboratory of Decision Support and Dispute Management, School of Management and Information Systems at Victoria University in Melbourne, Australia.". Also it seems his father was one part of the partisants in the regionJohn Zeleznikow was born of Polish/Jewish parents. His father Avram was living in Vilna, Poland when the German army invaded in 1941. He was incarcerated in the Vilna ghetto and remained there until 1943 when he made his perilous escape through the sewers to the neighbouring forests. He joined the partisans and fought with them until his liberation in 1944.

This doesn't seem like a neutral or reliable source on the subject.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

As per above "Over the past 20 years, Professor Zeleznikow has focussed on how artificial Intelligence can be used to enhance decision-making. Specific examples have been created in the domains of law, negotiation and sport. His research findings have been utilised by law and mediation firms, Victoria Legal aid, Relationships Australia Queensland, Victorian Institute of Sport, Australian Institute of Sport and Relationships Australia Victoria" --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

This was published in the peer reviewed Holocaust Studies - by an author with a multidisciplinary background (including conflict management). The peer reviewed Holocaust Studies is obviously preferable to the a PRIMARY report by the IPN, an institution set up to prosecuted alleged communist crimes which definitely has an agenda - this is beyond NOENG which has us preferring English language sources.Icewhiz (talk) 19:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Furthermore, the argument that Zeleznikov has a background in AI and decision making is irrelevant - we routinely use journal papers by students and recent graduates. Zeleznikov additional publications in additional fields is not a drawback. Regarding his father being a partisan - that's not grounds for precluding - if it were - we would have to remove just about any Polish or Lithuanian source based on the parents of the authors being involved in WWII in various capacities. What is highly relevant - is the venue of publication - Holocaust Studies - which is a highly esteemed peer review journal.Icewhiz (talk) 05:11, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

As WP:BIASED says, reliability is always in context. Sometimes partisan sources are the only ones available which discuss such matters. We can add content from Zeleznikov with proper attribution. He is notable enough.--יניב הורון (talk) 07:27, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing

As we are trying to strive for high level sourcing, I've made the following changes -

• IPN dispatch - this is PRIMARY. The releasing agency is a political prosecution agency, and in this case its activities have been described as "contemptible farce". Not required in any event as we have better English sources for the same information - so WP:NOENG applies as well.
• Bogdan Musial in the lede - non-English, from a questionable author in regards to Jews (and Soviets) - per The Dark Return of Polish Anti-Semitism. These books were widely criticized in peer reviewed publications regarding their accuracy and interpertition - and were being used to source a trivial detail about livestock (for some reason in the lede only).
• Anna Kraus (phd student) in histmag.org website - not a peer reviewed publication, not in English, not by a expert. Very borderline for use at all - and should be excluded as we have better sources. The sentence it was sourcing did not make sense in relation to the situation in 1944 - possible misrepresentation of Kraus.

Please discuss here.Icewhiz (talk) 05:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Recent edit

I've reverted this recent editing string that removed a number of high quality academic references. Please discuss here.Icewhiz (talk) 06:01, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Blind revert

Re [11]

First, the edit summary is false. It wasn't a IJDL revert, I provided rationales for all the changes. All of which were reverted en masse without even an attempt to address them.

Second, Icewhiz's revert remove well sourced info (first para in the diff) In particular it removes the fact that the massacre was documented by one of the participants, which is obviously important.

Third, it includes unencyclopedic language and ridiculous generalizations such as "it was seen in the West" or "Most of the world". Most of the world? What, did someone take a global poll or something? This is a function of either using junk sources, or in the other case, not realizing, or pretending not to realize, that the source is being sarcastic.

Fourth, um, the wording... "the investigation was seen as (...) an attack on the heroic Soviet antifascist resistance". WTF? Is this Soviet Union 1960's or something? "Heroic Soviet antifascist resistance"? You sure it wasn't an attack on the Dear Leader too? You sure it wasn't carried out by the Rabid Scoundrels of Reaction? Or Degenerate Imperialist Swine? This text is just ridiculous.

Fifth, the text is badly formatted. Again, obvious from the diff.

Sixth, Icewhiz removes well sourced text. This is IPN, a source which he has been trying desperately to remove from everywhere, but which he has not convinced anyone about it's supposed unreliability.

Seventh, it restores text attributed to "Soviet sources". Why are we using "Soviet sources" for this?

Eight, it makes the claim "the number is not supported by other sources" and... links to a collection of primary documents [12]. This is obvious original research.

Ninth, it claims that the Lithuanian investigation was closed, but I don't see that in the source.

And a bunch of more stuff.

And this wasn't a "stable version". This was the stable version. It had problems, but it was helluva better than what Icewhiz tried to do with the article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:41, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

This was in here for over a month ergo stable. Removing a whole well sourced section on reception of the investigation, in an academic book, since you did not like "The rest of the world" (source - "outside world"). The "Heroic Soviet antifascist resistance" matches language in an academic book - by a Lithanian author one must note. English academic sources are preferred, per WP:NOENG to primary non-English documents by a government anti-communist lustration agecncy with serious reputation problems. And yes, this case, amidst international outcry against it, was closed in Sep 2008 - something clearly visible in the cited source in page 340 -- which was apparently not read prior to removing this bit of info that should be an uncontroversial fact (we should also note removal of this is a WP:BLP issue vs Arad who is alive). Finally WP:IJDLI is npt a rationale for removing academic coverage of this investigation in WP:IRS - which we should reflect.Icewhiz (talk) 06:59, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm unaware of any Wikipedia policy which says that if an article hasn't been changed much for exactly a month then it's "stable". Hell, I don't know of any Wikipedia policy which privileges a "stable" version in the first place. Anyway, the version before you got busy with it was stable for much longer than a month. So by your logic, please restore that version [13] since it's been "stable" for much longer.

And first, even if "Heroic Soviet antifascist resistance" matches language in a source or not doesn't matter. It's ridiculous sounding non-encyclopedic writing and obivously POV. There's two possibilities here. Either the source is garbage. Or the source is being sarcastic. And you're pretending it's not.

English academic sources blah blah blah - how many times have we been over this? One more time - you haven't convinced anyone? You're misrepresenting NOENG. IPN is a reliable source. What the hell does "anti-communist lustration agecncy" (whatever that is) have to do with the topic of this article. What is the BLP issue? You're making stuff up. None of this is IJDLI, I explained in detail the numerous problems, so please stop making stuff up and misquoting policy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:21, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

As for "Soviet sources" - covered in secondary English academic sources - the Soviets were one of the two sides here (the other being the AK self defense unit in the village) - and as they are covered in a secondary manner, they should be mentioned by us - just as we mention Polish accounts present in secondary sources.Icewhiz (talk) 07:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz- This article was stable and accepted. It was created on December 7, 2001,[14] authored by over 50 unique editors. It was last revised on August 2, 2017 [15]. Next edit was yours on March 14, 2018, it was a POV tag [16] followed by 39 highly aggressive edits that destabilized an article entirely[17]GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:25, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I did not "destablize" the article. I did rectify some serious BLP and NPOV issues, using high quality secondary sources (in English or mostly in English). In most of the world, per RS, this piece of memory politics was seen as a "contemptible farce" whose purpose was to derail actual investigations into Lithuanian and Polish participation in the Holocaust.Icewhiz (talk) 08:45, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes you did destabilize the article I’m afraid, as per my evidence above. PS. Could you elaborate on what you mean by “Polish participation in the Holocaust”? Thank you.GizzyCatBella (talk) 13:52, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella may we have an explanation of the following revert?

• The massacre of Koniuchy and murder of its inhabitants was documented by one of the attacking partisans, Chaim Lazar - we're calling a primary source, but citing a secondary one. Do we have the original?
• You're quoting Chodakiewicz, who we know is not exactly unbiased, quoting another historian. Do we have anything on the latter?
• Why did you change In order to survive the partisans regularly raided nearby villages in order to obtain food, clothes, and footwear. This raiding led to skirmishes between the partisans and the men of Koniuchy to The partisants regularly raided nearby villages to rob them of food stocks, cattle and clothing?
• Why did you remove the following?
  • According to Soviet and Jewish sources, the villagers constituted a pro-Nazi threat to the partisans, though collaborations is denied by the villagers who have claimed that only a few men in the village were armed with rifles for self-protection?
  • a veteran Jewish partisan fighter, described Koniuchy as having a record of hostility to the partisans and that, in collaboration with the Nazis and the local police, the town had organized an armed group to fight the partisans
  • A paragraph on world reactions, starting with Most of the rest of the world...
  • Following wide international criticism, the investiation was closed in September 2008

François Robere (talk) 12:38, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Glaukopis text

http://www.glaukopis.pl/images/artykuly-obcojezyczne/KONIUCHYMASSACRE1.pdf Xx236 (talk) 08:57, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The IPN decided not to pursue?

Such information was published in Polish press in February, but the IPN portal lists the case as open.Xx236 (talk) 09:07, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Two things that need doing

1. Sources need sorting out to make sure there are no duplicates.
2. We need some more on the Lithuanian perspective. The investigation didn't take place in a vacuum.

François Robere (talk) 00:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The background, as I understand it, was the possible investigation of Lithuanian Nazi collaboraters (which was widespread - Lithuania has the dubious distinction of leading this category in occupied Europe - the political background of this being anti-Soviet, particularly due to 39-41) - and their widespread participation in atrocities (again - unlike other countries - most of the dirty ground work was done by locals). Michlic covers this IIRC.Icewhiz (talk) 03:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Regarding your recent edits: this edit does a lot more than just "Tagged sourcing problems in 1st par". In addition to incorrectly tagging a couple sources in the lede (which is inappropriate- we use secondary sources), you also

1. added the controversial sentence about "heroic Soviet resistance" (sic) which has been challenged as non-encyclopedic.
2. removed for some reason the fact that this investigation was closed
3. for some reason changed the English language "Home Army" to the Polish "Armia Krajowa"
4. removed Soviet War Crimes from the See Also section
5. removed the "short description|1944 massacre of Poles by Soviets during World War II"

Please use edit summaries which accurately describe your edits, rather than the ones which can be seen as misleading.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:04, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

1. "heroic Soviet resistance" - unencyclopedic is not an editing rationale - and this isn't said in our own voice - rather we are saying the perception in most of the world was that .... And we're doing that based on a very strong source. You've also removed quite a bit more - an entire paragraph - based on this challenge to the language in the source.
2. Soviet war crime - please establish that there is world wide scholarly consensus to classify this attack on an AK strongpoint (with prior German presence) as a war crime. The investigation has been viewed in a very dim light in most of the world.Icewhiz (talk) 06:40, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

We can discuss these issues separately (feel free to start the appropriate sections). The issue here, is that Francois Robere used a misleading edit summary - he claimed he was only adding couple tags but instead actually made several major changes further down in the article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

You haven't gained consensus to removing academic-level sources on the investigation - gutting out an entire paragraph which was strongly sourced. You haven't gained consensus to redact actual RS coverage of how this "investigation" (yes - several RSes use scare quotes to describe this) was perceived in most of the world.Icewhiz (talk) 07:36, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, BRD. Multiple editors have objected to the content. YOU need to get consensus to add it, and it's UNDUE (and "most of the world" doesn't give a cra

There are some edits there that I don't recall doing (eg. I would never add Mark Paul as a source). I may have worked off of an older version and rewrote Ealdgyth's changes. My apologies. François Robere (talk) 09:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

"There are some edits there that I don't recall doing" - that's not an excuse. Also, this concerns a single edit, not edits. Please do not use misleading edit summaries in the future.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. Volunteer Marek, I know you tend to assume the worst in other editors, but if you see an odd revision like this you can just ask. I would've reverted the unintended changes all the same. François Robere (talk) 10:02, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

"I know you tend to assume the worst in other editors" - you are engaging in personal attacks. I have asked you to stop [18] several times.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

That's not a personal attack, that's a statement of fact of which this discussion is proof: You claimed I made a misleading edit, which made no sense whatsoever considering its contents; I replied that it was in error, apologized and corrected what needed correcting; and instead of accepting it, you continue with this contentious tone. I would advise you listen to the admins on ANE, which on two recent discussions warned you against casting aspersions. François Robere (talk) 16:05, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The article is about...

... a massacre in Koniuchy, not a WP:POVFORK or WP:COATRACK for "Anti-semitism in Lithuania". While something may be mentioned, piling this on seems only to try and distract from the actual topic of the article, particularly since the amount of space devoted to it is almost as big or is as big as the description of the actual topic of this article. Hence I removed some text as WP:UNDUE.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:14, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The incident itself, in 1944, is fairly not noteworthy - it was one of very many conflict between Soviet units and resisting AK affiliated positions - if we were to write an article based on pre-1990 sources we wouldn't have much of an article at all. Most of the coverage of this incident is in relation to modern memory politics and investigations (which, per the sources, decided to focus on this particular Soviet incident due to an ethnic twist) - thus the sources themselves place an emphasis on the investigation, and it is definitely DUE.Icewhiz (talk) 06:42, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

"The incident itself, in 1944, is fairly not noteworthy" - that's your own idiosyncratic opinion. You are free of course to nominate it for deletion. Though seeing as how the article was judged good enough to appear on Wikipedia's main page multiple times, I expect you will have a hard time convincing others that your own idiosyncratic opinion is correct.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:05, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh - it will pass notability thresholds - due to investigation in the 2000s, which has been described in a WP:RS as "The outside world and even some Lithuanians viewed the entire case as a contemptible farce". The notoriety of this incident arises mainly from memory politics - which did indeed establish notability - however this entails, per WP:DUE, to reflect such coverage (which is, for the most part, in reputable academic sources on the memory politics and not on the incident itself).Icewhiz (talk) 07:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The article was considered notable long before it got WP:POVFORK'd with all the info about the investigation. This is the article Koniuchy massacre. Not the article Controversy surrounding the investigation into the Koniuchy massacre. If you'd like to create the latter then of course you can, and we can see if it passes notability.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:05, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

References

Introduction of popular history website as a source

histmag.org is not a scientific publication. It is a mass market website intended for a popular audience, and articles seem to be written to a large extent by students. Adding this as a source - is not compliant with WP:RS policy. The author is probably this person - who holds a masters degree and is not an established historian in the field. The site's editorial controls are not documented to be as expected from a reputable publisher. Finally - we have WP:NOENG - which is relevant policy for use of this non-English source. That an editor would introduce such a source - while removing a University of Nebraska Press academic book written by an established scholar and edited by an established scholar - is quite perplexing. Icewhiz (talk) 07:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm actually a bit ambivalent about histmag myself - but there does need to be some background regarding the attacks by Soviets on Polish villages and partisan units. The source is not not-reliable, it's just we can probably find something better. How about we ask other editors to weight in?

And as far as WP:NOENG, you've been told several times now (and not just by myself), that that's not an excuse to remove non-English sources that you happen not to like.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:06, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOENG is Wikipedia policy - and when better or equal English sources are available - non-English ones are removed. Removing top-notch academic sources and inserting a non-English histmag.org piece my a master's graduate (who seems to be involved in education and tour guiding - assuming I've locate the right person) - is not the sort of sourcing policy we'd expect in an article like this. We have sufficient academic level sources in English to forgo non-English sources for the vast majority of the text here (perhaps some anecdote is covered in non-English sources and would merit inclusion, but on the whole - non-English sources here are not required).Icewhiz (talk) 07:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I believe this is like the sixth time that I have to explain to you. But ok. What NOENG says is that if there is an English language source which says X and a non-English language source which says X, then we just use the English language source. It does not say that if there is an English language source which says X and a non-English language source which says "abracadabra" we cannot use the non-English source to say "abracadabra" and have to limit ourselves to saying X. That would be silly. That would effectively ban all non-English language sources from Wikipedia. Again, this is your own strange and self-serving interpretation of Wikipedia policy which you keep trying to use to remove sources which you simply don't like (it's basically an updated substitute for your earlier demands that Polish sources should not be used on articles about Polish history).

While we're on the subject, while histmag is indeed not an academic source but I don't see why it would be unreliable. It's a popular history magazine with very high circulation. It's got editorial over sight. It's got a "reputation for fact checking and accuracy". It fulfills the requirements as outlined at WP:RS. The editor is this guy, I think, who's won numerous awards for his work. It looks like it's comparable to something like The Smithsonian Magazine, although obviously specialized in history. Indeed, it's probably more reliable for historical issues than newspaper articles which we use in this article. If you really want to push this, then you obviously are free to inquire for outside opinion over at WP:RSN.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOENG is policy - if we have English sources covering a particular aspect - we use them. Histmag.org is a popular audience website. It does not seem they have any editorial policy beyond having an editor (e.g. articles are not peer reviewed). The authors on histmag.org seem to be mainly students or recent graduates (e.g. - this particular author has a master's degree). It is definitely a poor source in relation to any actual academic work, and would also be poorer than a newspaper (which does have an editorial board). It does not meet the criteria for WP:RS - and - you've got this backwards - it is up to you to get consensus for including this. It is definitely not comparable to Smithsonian. It is possible it just barely scrapes above WP:BLOGS level.Icewhiz (talk) 07:50, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, NOENG is a policy, a policy which you repeatedly misrepresent, despite the fact that this has been explained to you numerous times. It is not a license to remove non-English sources which user Icewhiz happens to disagree with. See WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.

And histmag does have an editorial board. Yes, as I already said, it's not of the same quality as a scholarly work - since it's a popular history magazine - but it is better than a newspaper article. Yes, it does have an editorial board, I even linked to the article on the main editor! What are you talking about? Yes it does meet the criteria for WP:RS.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Factual error introduced to reference

This revert - introduced a counter-factual error describing a source that is in English as being in Hebrew. This error remains in the present version. @Volunteer Marek: - please correct this. I also urge you to self-revert your mass removal of academic sources which are actual WP:IRS in regards to the "investigation" - while some editors may disagree that the Soviet anti-fascist resistance was heroic, that this resistance movement is perceived as such by a rather wide audience - duly noted with this precise language by an academic - is a factual description regarding the perception.Icewhiz (talk) 07:45, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

If you would actually explain what the reference is then it would be much easier to correct this "counter-factual error"

As to my edits, I provided a detailed rationale for all of them, unlike you who merely jumped in to make quick blind-reverts. Several users have objected to your and FR's edits but rather than working toward obtaining consensus, you two have chosen to instigate repeated edit wars with blind reverting. Yes, you are very careful to avoid breaking 3RR but a slow-motion edit war which you and FR are engaged in can still be seen as an instance of WP:TEND and disruptive editing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

You've reverted this change to Haaretz.com which is in English, not Hebrew. I have not made blind-reverts here - I've retained your constructive edits (for instance - retaining this ref fix in this revert. You have not gained consensus here regarding your view of several academic sources that have covered this incident.Icewhiz (talk) 07:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

This is trivial to fix, so I'm not sure why you're making a big deal out of this. And yes, your reverts were blind and whole sale - this can be easily seen from the article's edit history. Wherease I tried to go through FR's edits one-by-one and judge the merits of each one, you jumped in with one single revert (twice) to undo everything.

As to consensus, it's obvious from discussions above that FR/Icewhiz have not obtained consensus for most of their proposed changes. FR/Icewhiz are free to start RfC's on the relevant topics. But per BRD, the onus for consensus is on them.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:49, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Strange

Most of the rest of the world, as well as some Lithuanians, viewed the Lithuanian investigation of Jewish Holocaust survivors as a "contemptible farce",[citation needed] - we know what the whole world thinks but we don't have any source.Xx236 (talk) 12:07, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. It used to be cited - the sentence apparently got moved around without the citation.Icewhiz (talk) 12:13, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

The "Most of the world" phrasing, along with the "heroic Soviet resistance" language mostly just cast doubt on the quality of the source. Who is "most of the world"? This is extremely strange phrasing and obviously non-encyclopedic. Generally I think we should avoid using this source at all.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:47, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

"Most of the rest of the world" - would seem to be any place outside of Poland or Lithuania that has covered this. Many do consider Soviet partisans as "heroic" - which is what the source, a RS, conveys. An editor's opinions on the opinions of "most of the rest of the world" have little bearing on the reliability of a source.Icewhiz (talk) 14:36, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

"any place outside of Poland or Lithuania" - like Fiji? Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

It seems to have been covered mainly in Europe, North America, and the Middle East.Icewhiz (talk) 15:28, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

By Arabian academicians?Xx236 (talk) 06:03, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Eyewitness account

http://www.geocities.ws/jedwabne/sila_w_cierpieniu.htm Xx236 (talk) 12:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

If it is an eyewitness account, it's primary. And it's hosted on a non-reliable site. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Lazar's accounts are quoted from secondary sources but described as verification needed. I don't understand the problem.Xx236 (talk) 12:20, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

There were other secondary sources in the article. Quite possible they were removed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:45, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

equipped with some rusty rifles.[8][verification needed]

The are plenty statements in this Wikipedia to be verified, this one hardly.Xx236 (talk) 12:13, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

This one uses "few rifles". Not rusty. And attributes this as a claim made by the residents.Icewhiz (talk) 12:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Lazar

Chaim Lazar: Destruction and Resistance, Shengold Publishers, New York, 1985 - what about reading the book to verify the stories?Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I think we should cut out Lazar - I think it is a primary account - we should mention this only if it is really covered by secondary sources.Icewhiz (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

There has never been a rule against using primary sources. I don't want to edit this article, but I ordered the book and will verify the content. Zero^talk 13:42, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

But IT IS covered by secondary sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:44, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

POV fork

Just a reminder that this article is on the Koniuchy massacre. It is not an article on The Controversy Surrounding the Koniuchy Massacre (although of course such can be mentioned, while keeping WP:UNDUE in mind). Likewise it is not suppose to be a POVFORK of Anti-semitism in Lithuania (or I guess a substitute for, since that's a red link). All the extra info about "rise of anti-semitism in Lithuania after fall of Soviet Union" belongs in that article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:46, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:PRESERVE - as long as we don't have an article on Koniuchy massacre "investigation" (perhaps we should move this article there? That's the more notable topic) - material belongs here. Wholesale removal of how RSes cover this "investigation" - is violation of NPOV - particularly if we mention this "investigation".Icewhiz (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Lol, that's not what WP:PRESERVE says. This isn't "appropriate content". It's a massive UNDUE violation and WP:POVFORKing. The "investigation" is not more notable. This article has been around just fine for a long period of time before you showed up and even appeared on the front page several times.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:04, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Most of this content has been here for over 6 weeks - dating back to 6 May - ONUS on you to show a policy based reason for why this strongly sourced material should be removed.Icewhiz (talk) 19:39, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

And "unenecyclopedic" is not a rationale when there are two academic texts with this language.Icewhiz (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if the source is actually academic. "Heroic Soviet resistance" is not definitely not encyclopedic. Note that a source can be reliable, even very good, but it may still use unencyclopedic language. That's because ... ... ... the source is not an encyclopedia! Saying that the phrasing is "unencyclopedic" isn't necessarily some kind of an insult to a source. Encyclopedias use encyclopedic language. Non-encyclopedias sometimes use non-encyclopedic language. It just means that we can't use the same language because we're... ... ... an encyclopedia.

BTW, looking around I see some info that the IPN investigation has been recently closed but I can't find a source I consider reliable enough for that.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:34, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:RS trumps an editor's opinion. Nothing unencyclopedic in saying that the Soviet resistance is perceived as heroic by X, Y, Z. And even if that were a problem - the solution is fixing the language - not cutting out well sourced material wholesale.Icewhiz (talk) 03:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

"heroic soviet resistance"

Sorry guys, there's absolutely no way you can say that in Wikipedia voice. You could say it with attribution, perhaps, but why would you want to? Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

We are not saying this in wiki voice. We have one quote was perceived in the West and among Jewish groups as "an attack on the heroic Soviet antifascist resistance", and one instance where we say it was perceived as such The investigation was seen in the West and among Jewish groups as an attack on the heroic Soviet antifascist resistance. Neither of which is a stmt of fact - it is a stmt of public perception - back up by an impeccable source. We follow sources, which are rather clear here.Icewhiz (talk) 19:36, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

That's pretty much saying it in Wiki voice even with the quote as it doesn't say who claimed this was "heroic Soviet resistance". There are two problems here: 1) whether or not Soviet resistance was "heroic" and 2) whether or not Soviet resistance was "perceived as heroic" in the West (seriously?). Both claims would need to be attribute since they're both, to say the least, extremely controversial. The source btw, is not "impeccable". If nothing else it appears to have problems with translation from Lithuanian and makes lots of strange statements, this "heroic Soviet resistance" being one of them, to the extent that one wonders whether the author is being sarcastic. Regardless, this is UNDUE anyway. But you are welcome to start an RfC on the question of whether we should include the mention of this "heroic Soviet resistance" in the article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:IJDLI on a quite strong source. Stable version is with this - ONUS on you. If your problem is attribution (not actually required here as this is, in most of the world, an uncontroversial statement - most of the English press coverage saying similar stmts about partisans) - add attribution - don't remove strong sourced material. A Rowman & Littlefield book by an academic trumps an editor's opinion.Icewhiz (talk) 19:51, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

I think this quote can be kept in the ref, but should not be present in the article, as it is quite non-neutral. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:44, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

It is present in an academic source saying how this was perceived world wide. Unless you have some sort of evidence that the source is biased (the author is Lithuanian I would note) - then an editor's opinion on neutrality is rather irrelevant. I'll note that per rather strong RS, if there is anything biased - it is the Lithuanian/Polish investigation.Icewhiz (talk) 08:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I dont see what is the problem. It seems content is well sourced and attributed.--יניב הורון (Yaniv) (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

BLP violation

This article mainly describes an "investigation", widely seen as a contemptible farce (per an actual RS which were removed) against at least one BLP. A singificant chunk of the article's text present this investigation (including the Canadian Polish Congress.... If there were anything UNDUE here...) - in a manner that one might conclude that this farce had a semblence of legitimacy - while RSes indicate otherwise. Beyond being a serious NPOV issue to display this "investigation" in this manner - this is also a serious BLP issue towards those indviduals who were persecuted in the course of this farce. @Volunteer Marek: - I do suggest you self revert, or alternatively remove the investigation all together - in its current form the article is a serious BLP issue.Icewhiz (talk) 20:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

What is the BLP violation? Against whom?

Aside from the UNDUE problem, there is also the problem that that whole section is a complete mess. Probably because whoever added the info was more interested in cramming their views into the article than actually writing an encyclopedia article. For example, the Marrus quote in the FOURTH paragraph appears to reference the Lithuanian investigation. But... the existence of a Lithuanian investigation is not actually mentioned until the FIFTH paragraph. Oh wait, no! There is something in it about in the FIRST paragraph. Wait... is the investigation in the first paragraph the same investigation as the fifth paragraph? Were there two Lithuanian investigations? If not, why is this repeated? Which investigation are all the quotes referring to? Oh, and IPN is required to open an investigation if there is enough evidence that a possible crime was committed. They don't really have a choice in the matter. And then it seems like some of the quote reference the Polish investigation. Except... that investigation was just an examination of documents, not any interviews with Holocaust survivors or partisans.

So. This is UNDUE. And it's horribly written. Removing borderline incoherent, UNDUE text which attempts to turn the article into a WP:POVFORK is not actualy a "BLP violation".Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:58, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

And let me be explicit here - I'm fine with discussing the fact that the Lithuanian investigation was controversial and that there was international criticism of it. But this has to be done in a DUE way. Gratuitous quotes about how anti-semitic Lithuania is are not the way to do it. Neither is using unencyclopedic language about "Most of the world thought that..." I mean, if there had been a UN Resolution or something like that, then MAYBE you could make that claim. But honestly, most of the world obviously didn't give a flip or even ever heard of this small village in Lithuania.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Yitzhak Arad is a BLP. Introducing material from the IPN - a prosecuting agency - is a BLPPRIMARY violation. Not covering the investigation as it is covered in actual RSes - is beyond a NPOV problem - also a BLP problem.Icewhiz (talk) 03:40, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Generally Lithuanians are known to be very touchy about anyone bringing to light their extensive pro-Nazi collaboration. I am not sure, however, what is the problem here? The Lithuanian investigation can be described as controversial, and the source cited above seems solid. While a mention of this on Arad's page could be BLP, mentioning here that he was one of the persons related to the investigation seems fine - particularly as we note the investigation was dismissed / cancelled. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:52, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

This incident is the subject of an investigation involving at least one BLP (Arad). While Arad could possibly be named here per WP:WELLKNOWN, this does still require us to adhered to BLP sourcing standards and use independent WP:RS (which the investigating bodies - are not). Specifically, this source, which is a WP:PRIMARY press statement (undated and unsigned I will note), of an investigative/prosecuting agency involved in the case which is presently used to make statements in Wikipedia's voice on the details of the investigated case (which, in most of the world, has been viewed as "contemptible farce"[19] - making use of such a source a NPOV issue) - is beyond just a violation of just about any RS policy - a WP:BLPPRIMARY ((tq|Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person.}} violation. WP:BLP policy extends to any Wikipedia page - thus naming units (with BLP members) and details of an alleged incident, from the investigating agency, is a clear and outright infraction.08:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

References

Garbled ref...

Here: Between 30 to 40 villagers were killed and dozen more were wounded, and in addition many houses were looted and burned.<ref>[https://books.google.com/books?id=2NnoBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT26&dq=Chaim+Lazar+%27%27Destruction+and+Resistance%27%27+Koniuchy&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGlu-NmvPbAhUCba0KHXOLC5kQ6AEIOjAD#v=onepage&q=Chaim%20Lazar%20''Destruction%20and%20Resistance''%20Koniuchy&f=false}}</ref> - can this be fixed, please? Ealdgyth - Talk 13:07, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

More: "Sowjetische Partisanen 1941-1944: Mythos und Wirklichkeit Bogdan Musial Ferdinand Schoeningh, 2009, page 547" or "Bogdan Musial Sowjetische Partisanen in Weißrussland Innenansichten aus dem Gebiet Baranovici 1941-1944 Cover: Sowjetische Partisanen in Weißrussland Oldenbourg Verlag, München 2004, page 28" ... is it possible to actually like format the citations, please? Ealdgyth - Talk 13:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing...

More issues - note that I'm not digging to find out who made these errors - I don't care. They need fixed. It doesn't matter who originally put them in or why or how - let's work together to FIX the issues rather than playing blame-games.

• Here Polonsky, Antony; Michlic, Joanna B. (11 April 2009). The Neighbors Respond: The Controversy over the Jedwabne Massacre in Poland. Princeton University Press. ISBN 1400825814. - this ref which is used 3 times - does not list a page number - rather it links to a google books search that returns four results. Not all the search results are related to the information being sourced - this is not helpful. Please put in actual page numbers not just search results when the search results turn up more than one result.
• Another problem with that ref - it gives the date as "7 February 2011" - this is a date from Google books - and is NOT the date given in the actual book's copyright page - where the date is just "2011". Books don't have exact dates of copyright ... we shouldn't use Google Books pretty-much-made-up date for references.
• There is no need to specify "language=en" when citing a reference on English Wikipedia.
• Current ref 4 is cited to support "under their command during the Second World War in the Polish village of Koniuchy (now Kaniūkai, Lithuania) on 29 January 1944. According to the findings of the Institute of National Remembrance, at least 38 Polish civilians were killed and about a dozen injured. The massacre of Koniuchy and murder of its inhabitants was documented by one of the attacking partisans, Chaim Lazar. According to Lazar the village was to be destroyed completely
  • A couple of problems here - The linked search is again not given a page number, but more importantly nothing on the page in the source says anything about Lazar.
  • Another problem is that this is also sourcing the statement "under their command during the Second World War in the Polish village of Koniuchy (now Kaniūkai, Lithuania) on 29 January 1944. According to the findings of the Institute of National Remembrance, at least 38 Polish civilians were killed and about a dozen injured." - I suspect this is just sloppy placement of sources - and the preceeding source is supposed to go at the end of the sentence "a dozen injured."
  • A third problem is that the source cited (Stachura) is actually a collection of documents and primary sources - so the citation is actually wrong. It implies that Stachura made the statment but in actuality its extracted "A description from Jewish sources of the desctruction of the Polish village of Koniuchy by a Jewish partisan unit on 29 January 1944" and then the given source is "M. J. Chodakiewicz (ed.) Ejszyszki. Kulisy zajsc w Ejszyszkach. We're getting this information third-hand (at least). So it appears that Chodakiewicz pulled some primary accounts of the massacre together into Ejszyszki in 2002. Then Strachura pulled from Chodakiewicz's account (and left bits out given the many ellipses in the Strachura work)... so we're not getting the full context of the primary source. I'll note that Strachura's introduction says that it was only Jewish partisans that took part in the massacre - which is disputed by other sources. The cited primary account also claims 300 deaths - which conflicts with the IPN investigation.
• Current ref 20 is sourcing "The institute examined a number of archival documents including police reports, encoded messages, military records and personnel files of the Soviet partisans. Requests for legal assistance were then sent to state prosecutors in Belarus, Lithuania, the Russian Federation and Israel. The IPN investigation was closed in February 2018. The official reason for the closure was that the investigators were not able to establish "beyond a reasonable doubt" that any perpetrators of the massacre were still alive, and as a result concluded that there was no one who could be charged with a crime."
  • A problem here is this is apparently a news article that states that the reporter/newspaper has learned that the investigation is GOING to be closed shortly so we can't say in wiki voice that it closed. (Here's the Google Translate if that helps)
• Current refs 11 and 12 support "Historian Kazimierz Krajewski has said that the only crime of the inhabitants was that they had enough of "the daily - or, rather, nightly - robberies and assaults" and had decided to defend themselves against these." Current ref 11 is this source (Here is the Google Translate) which doesn't support the quote. Ref 12 goes to a Google Books search for "Intermarium: The Land Between the Black and Baltic Seas" which is very unhelpful since that's the title of the work and it returns a LOT of pages. I suspect that this search with the third result is what is meant, but since the books pages are not numbered in the Google Search, its difficult to be sure.
• Current ref 14 is supporting "The Soviet units surrounded the village and then attacked at five o'clock in the morning. The attack lasted between one and a half to two hours." (14a) and "One of the groups was from the Kaunas Brigade of Lithuanian Headquarters of the Partisan Movement (subordinate to the South Branch of the Lithuanian Communist Party) while others were from the Vilnius Brigade." (14b). The problem here is that this source is undated - and has no author - which basically means its a press release by the IPN. Doesn't mean it's not considered a WP:RS, but there are better sources that should be used in such a contentious topic. Can we find those better sources - even the full report on the investigation by the IPN would be infinitely better than this source.
  • This same main source is also given as ref #3 where it is amusingly given as the author " Narodowej, Instytut Pamięci" ... as if "Narodowej" was the author's last name rather than the "Institute of National Remembrance" (This is the Polish version of current ref 14 - which is in English).
• Current ref 1 is supporting "The village of about 60 households and 300 inhabitants was not fortified but the villagers were armed with a few rifles. A small local self-defence unit was created in the autumn of 1943 to defend the village against repeated Soviet partisans' raids. According to Soviet and Jewish sources, the villagers constituted a pro-Nazi threat to the partisans. Local villagers denied that there was any collaboration with the Germans and have said that only a few men in the village were armed with rifles for self-protection." (1c)
  • First problem is that the source doesn't mention anything about the number of households in the village or population. Nor is the forming of a 1943 self-defense force. And the source says that the rifles were to defend themselves "against marauding bandits" not Soviet partisans.
  • The given source is too closely paraphrased in our article - the source says "Soviet and Jewish sources claim the Koniuchy villagers, mostly ethnic Poles and Belarusians, constituted a pro-Nazi threat to the partisans. The local people have denied collaboration with the Germans and claimed that the community had only a few men armed with rifles to protect themselves against marauding bandits." This is entirely too close to the source's wording and needs to be fixed.
• Current ref 9 is sourcing three things:
  • 9a: "Before the Second World War the village belonged to Second Polish Republic, after the Soviet invasion of Poland it was briefly transferred to Lithuania which was then occupied by the Soviets on 3 August 1940. With the German invasion of the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa, the remaining Soviet forces hid in the local forests, forming partisan groups." The source is here (Here is the Google translate) As near as I can tell - this source mentions nothing about any events prior to 1943 - there is no mention of 1939 or 1941 or Operation Barbarossa or similar events. Am I missing something?
  • 9c is sourcing "In May 2004, a memorial cross commemorating the event was erected in Kaniūkai with the names of the victims." it does support that there was a memorial erected in 2004, but not May.
• Current ref 17 supports "According to Chaim Lazar, one of the partisans who participated in the massacre, the village was to be destroyed completely." this is Strachura again - which has been dealt with above.
• Current ref 13 is here which is used twice.
  • The first time is to source "On 29 January 1944, the village was attacked by Soviet partisan units under the command of the Central Partisan Command in Moscow, who had received information on a German garrison that was stationed there, although as it turned out the German garrison had been abandoned before the attack." Several problems - first - it doesn't support the exact date. Second, it's way close paraphrasing - the source says "The Lithuanian partisans, who operated under the aegis of the Central Partisan Command of the Soviet Union, had information that there was a German garrison in the village. After the fact, it turned out that the Germans had abandoned the place" - this needs to be paraphrased better. Third - the source calls them "Lithuanian partisans" not "Soviet". Fourth - we can do better than a newspaper article for this sort of historical information, surely?
• Current ref 15 supports "The raid was carried out by 100–120 partisans from various units including 30 Jewish partisans from the "Avengers" and "To Victory" units under the command of Jacob (Yaakov) Prenner." This supports the second part but not the first part. And it's a primary source ... which while allowed, is still not best practice.
• "As part of its investigation, Lithuanian prosecutors sought out Jewish veterans of the partisan movement. One of these was Yitzhak Arad, a former Israel Defense Forces brigadier general, an expert on the Holocaust in Lithuania, and former chairman of Yad Vashem. Arad had also served as a member of a commission appointed by Lithuania's president in 2005 to examine past war crimes. In response to the investigation, Yad Vashem issued a protest saying it focused on "victims of Nazi oppression" and suspended Israeli participation in the commission which Arad was part of." is sourced to three different sources all at the end of this information - it is difficult to figure out which source supports which parts of the sentences - this needs untangling and putting the sources on the information that they support rather than putting them all at the end.
• Note that I didn't look at the current refs 5, 6, 10, or 18 - as I either don't have access (10) or can't figure out what the title/author is from the mangled citation (5, 6, 18). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:35, 29 June 2018 (UTC)