Talk:Prespa e Vogël and Golloborda

Should this article exist? It's a copypaste of work (my work) from United Macedonia; it's a fork. Please add some more information (translate foreign wiki articles perhaps), otherwise this article is a worthless plagiarization. --Tēlex 20:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Telex, these regions do exist. I really don't know what's the problem? The names are used in every single Slavic country. BTW, the article is stub now. Bomac 20:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

About the "Greeks" stuff and alike

Telex, do you have any sources which claim there are Greeks in these regions? Frankly, I doubt about it. Bomac 21:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The 1987 recorded 58,785 Greeks and only 5,000 Macedonians. Greeks live everywhere in what Greeks call Northern Epirus, which includes the Prespa region (especially the cities of Korçë and Pogradec). --Tēlex 21:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, according to this, there are Greeks only in the Mala Prespa region. There aren't any in Golo Brdo. Bomac 21:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that Greeks live in Korçë is challenged by anyone - I know it's incompatible with Macedonism, which maintains that the only Greeks in Macedonia (region) are the Pontian refugees, in which case it's impossible that there are Greeks in any other part of Macedonia. If you want to remove the Greeks, you'll have to split the article. --Tēlex 21:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I am not a "macedonism" fighter and look the changes I've made. Bomac 21:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I notice that mk:Корча mentions the Vlach and Macedonian minorities, but fails to mention the Greek minority (the largest minority). Macedonism strikes again!!! I agree with your edit Bomac, except I think there may be Vlachs and Torbeshes in Golo Brdo as well - I'm not certain. --Tēlex 21:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, you should use the name Telex in mkWiki, and not other name. That is sockpuppetry ;-) Bomac 21:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is a map of the region. I'm pretty certain that Golo Brdo is not in Northern Epirus, in which case there will not be a significant Greek community there. --Tēlex 21:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Golo Brdo is not marked at the map. It is further north and is not fused with Mala Prespa. The main place in Golo Brdo is Trebisht e Ball [or smt. like that] (Требишти и Баљ). Bomac 21:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, part of Mala Prespa is in Greece [1], does POV pushing have no limit, Bomac? --Tēlex 21:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think you refer to the Small Prespa Lake? Bomac 21:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The region is not officially defined. It could even include Thessalonica. --Tēlex 21:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Or Dimotika, let's say ;-) Bomac 21:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Look at the map. Golo Brdo is just south of Debar (where the border gets semi-circled form). Bomac 21:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know where it is. If I'm not mistaken, Mala Prespa in Greek is Μικρή Πρέσπα Mikrí Préspa, and in Albanian is Prespë e Vogël. --Tēlex 21:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Should be moved to Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo - the correct transliteration of the Macedonian language geographical term used by the officialy recognized Ethnic Macedonian minority in Albania. Dzole 21:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Not really because there is also a Bulgarian minority. ForeignerFromTheEast 22:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

An existence of a Bulgarian ethnic minority is not officialy recognized by official Albania[2] (source: Southeast European Times),and hence the Bulgarian language is not in official use. There's no a reason why the title should be in Bulgarian. However I didnt remove the Bulgarian spelling inside the article, its still there (despite not being properly sourced) Dzole 23:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Please.. Find an Albanian official site, not some newspaper. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

No. You should find a valid source, as you havent provided any so far. btw that "newspaper" is a news website sponsored by the United States European Command and it has been already referenced in several articles. Check here Template:Bg icon Dzole 23:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Refer to Demographics of Albania. ForeignerFromTheEast 23:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Provide a valid external source.Dzole 00:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[3]. See the demographics section. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You havent proved anything. What I can conclude is: CIA acknowledges that there were/are people who declare(d) Bulgarian nationality in Albania (in the census of 1989 or other censuses). But on the other hand, the current official Albania openly refuses to recognize a Bulgarians as an ethnic group, as a collective, nor the Bulgarian language is in any kind of an official use there. Hence, this stirs protests in Bulgaria [[4][5]. As an analogy, that same CIA website mentions ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria [6] although official Bulgaria refuses to officialy recognize a Macedonian ethnic community and to grant group rights, including official use of the language. Individuals who declared certain ethnicity do not qualify for an officialy recognized minority group.Dzole 02:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Additional sources have been provided. An image was added which has been previously accepted into the contetious article Vergina Star. Dzole 05:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If I may add here, I think the crucial criterion for naming (see WP:NC) should be a different one. Since neither form of the name ("Bardo" or "Brdo") is in official use as such in Albania, this criterion doesn't help us to decide. Whether the language of either of the names has official recognition really shouldn't concern us. The only criterion we're left with is which of the forms is more common in English. Google and Google Books do see "Brdo" in front, but you might want to check for yourselves.

By the way, what is the official name in Albania? What are these, towns, villages? Do they have Albanian names? Geonames server [7] has a place called Burimas, variants Kollobërda, Goloberdë, Goloberda, Gollobërdha, Burimi. Is that it? If they are real places and there is an official local name, shouldn't our article be there, first of all? (and separate articles for each?) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all here is what might be called an official source [8] and another one in Bulgarian [9] with info about the Bulgarians there and that they have no recognised rights. Here are two books [10][11] with mentioning of the Bulgarian population in Prespa (Prespa as a whole - now separated between Greece, Albania and Republic of Macedonia). The name of the cultural association of the Bulgarian minority in Albania is "Prosperitet Golloborda". This might leave us to something. An interview with its president [12] in Bulgarian. Hmmm, an interesting interview with Arben Xhaferi from DPA claiming there are no ethnic Macedonians in Albania (not sure if this is of any relevance though).

The wisest move might be to stick with the official Albanian name as in German wiki: "Golloborda". Splitting the article in two "Mala Prespa" and "Golloborda" would be better, too as the current state is more irredentist than anything else. --Laveol ^T 12:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

No Cut-n-paste moves!

Hey people, wait! Pages MUST NOT be moved by copying and pasting their contents! I'll fix this by restoring the page at its old ("Bardo") location; that doesn't mean it couldn't be moved again later, but do it properly, after discussion and only through the regular technique. Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The page could not be moved in a regular way yesterday. There was an error message "such page exists" etc. (hence that "redirect war"). Regarding further discussions, I provided all the necesary sources, the page was properly proposed for a move, there are absolutely no reasons why should the title be in Bulgarian anymore. For those that suddenly began to insist that the original Albanian name should be used, I will ask: Why you havent insisted on that previously when the article was Bulgarian pov?
Moreover, Bulgarians are not a subject now. There may be/or not be Bulgarians in Albania, what I say for a last time is: a minority called Bulgarian is not recognized as an official minority by the Albanian state, in Bulgarian: Нямаме официален статут на малцинство. (We dont have a status of an official minority) [13]. Future Perfect at Sunrise, its time to move this to Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo Dzole 15:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, cause I was not aware such an article existed. And just why do you think that the discussion is over? And why do you urge the article to be moved? There is a point beyond yours - this territory is part of the country of Albania. Calling it with other names is pure irredentism. This is not the MK or BG wiki where the article can be what it is most popular in the given country. --Laveol ^T 15:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• Three points: Speaking as an admin first, the point about the technical impossibility of the move is just that, you can't move something if the page already exists. There's a reason for having that. When the software shows you a stop sign, the intent is for you to stop, not to circumvent the stop sign. If the page needs to be moved, it just has to be done by an admin. We are always at your service. :-)
• As for not having discussed these things earlier, just like Laveol I've only now come across this article.
• Now, speaking as an interested editor, I certainly have no reason to prefer the Bulgarian version over the Macedonian one. I have no objections to a move, once we have checked the right criteria. As I said, I can't see how the official recognition or non-recognition of the Bulgarian group has any bearing on the issue, that's why I don't accept the discussion is over just because you've demonstrated their non-recognition. It just doesn't matter. What matters is what is the most common name in English. Do we agree the "Brdo" version is more common? (Google seemed to indicate it is, in fact.)
• The other thing is, what is this article supposed to be about in the first place. Is it a geography article about some locations? In that case, the most natural thing would be to have separate articles for each of them, and probably under their Albanian names. Or is it supposed to be an article about a political issue? Then the combined article probably makes sense (but we ought to have additional, separate location articles).
• I have some more, factual questions. What exactly is "Mala Prespa"? Is it supposed to be a town, a village? What does the phrase mean ("mala", is that the Slavic word for "small"?). How does it relate to neighbouring Prespa in Macedonia, Prespes in Greece, and Lake Prespa? (hmm, we might want a dab page about those.) And Golo B(a)rdo, is that just that single village? Anybody have a map? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Futperf, it is geographical, historical and political and ethnic issue.

• Regarding the "Mala Prespa plus Golo Brdo issue": remember Bosnia and Herzegovina? or Kosovo and Metohija?

These two areas (Mala Prespa and the nearby Golo Brdo) were ceded to Albania after the Balkan Wars. Both of them belong to Macedonia (region) so its like Albanian Macedonia (like Greek Macedonia, which also comprises of many different geographical areas from mountains, plains all the way to the sea). The problem is, unlike Greek Macedonia or Pirin Macedonia, I have never heard a term "Albanian Macedonia" (part of the geo region of Mac within the borders of modern Albania). The area is refered to as Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo. It is refered to as such in many of the articles around wikipedia. Macedonians are significant ethnic population in both of the areas. Macedonian language is used even on the flag of Pustec municiplaity (see the image).

• Regarding geography:

Mala Prespa is the one of the two sister-Prespa Lakes (the Little and the Small Prespa) which are shared by several countries: Albania, Greece, Rep. of Macedonia. The term Prespa (either Big or Small) is also used to describe the area around the lakes (like "prespanski kraj" in mac. lang). Golo Brdo is slightly more north, particluary west of the town of Debar (which is in Rep. of Mac.) Dzole 17:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

And one important thing: the whole point of existence of this article was obviously not to ilustrate lakes and mountains, its not just a geographical region article. you can see its connected specificaly to ethnic Macedonian or region of Macedonia related subjects. Dzole 18:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

So the obvious solution is to turn this article into a description of an irredentist term (like Aegean Macedonia) and leave the respected geography terms to their own articles. Prespa, for instance, is a whole region in Greece, Albania and Republic of Macedonia. --Laveol ^T 20:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It is irredentist to refer to these places as Mala Prespa and Golo Barbo as that implies that they are Bulgarain. The Albanian government has stated that there is no Bulgarian minority. The only solution that I see is to refer to the places under there Macedonian names as that is the population that lives there. Referring to the places as under Bulgarian names would be irredentist as it would be implying Bulgaria's age old claim on the boundaries of what some call "ethnic Macedonia". It would be denying the people living there their right to self determination. Ireland101 02:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, the bulgarian transliteration is not precise at all. That "A" in "bArdo" does not properly correspond to the Bulgarian letter "ъ" in "бърдо". A is like America, asylum, anthropology, while ъ is something else. In the Macedonian language ъ is written like ’ (in ’рж for example). Its not a letter but some "half-voice". The word "Bardo" sounds like bard-oh, while бърдо sounds like bird-oh. This was just a trivia, Bulgarian language is not recognzied nor used in Albania anyway Dzole 03:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

"F" on Bulgarian language transliteration :). And once again, Ireland, where did you see me saying that a Bulgarian name should be kept? Seriously? What I propose is the official Albanian name of the place. As far as I see you do not allow the usage of any Albanian names in RoM, but you cannot deny it in Albania itself. --Laveol ^T 15:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

So, guys, would you agree on the following:

• move this page to Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo, as this does seem to be the slightly more common designation in English;
• treat it as a predominantly political-historical article, dealing with the region as an object of the territorial divisions of the Balkans and of the ensuing minority issues;
• create separate articles on the actual Albanian locations (municipalities, districts, whatever) involved, in so far as such corresponding administrative entities exist, and under their official Albanian names? (as I understand, there probably is no such entity in the case of "Mala Prespa", but there might be one in the case of Golo Brdo? (I'm still a bit confused, because the village I found in the GeoNet server and which sounded as if could be it, doesn't seem to match Dzole's description of where "Golo Brdo" is; its geo coordinates are much closer to Lake Prespa than to Lake Ohrid, it seems.
• And people, pleeeeaase stop debating the legitimace or non- of that Bulgarian minority, it's really a red herring.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Link

excuse me, but why a personal blog is allowed to be used as a source? see current footonote no.8, blog hosted at blogspot, URL: http://albania-bulgaria.blogspot.com/2007/04/ethnic-bulgarians-in-mala-prespa-and.html . As far as I can see (correct me if im wrong) the blog itself does not belong to Mrs/Ms. Mangalakova, nor the reference leads to the organisation which she allegedly represents: IMIR - International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations. This blog is just quoting or referencing her works or something. And finally, who is Mrs. Mangalakova? --Dzole 00:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Right - no personal blogs allowed. I've fixed the link - see if you're able to open it. Jingiby must have added the blog, but there is an official article. --Laveol ^T 00:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Introduction section

i dont understand why we must mention the Bulgarian claims in the intoduction? For example, Republic of Macedonia claims an existence of ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece, which is not officialy recognized, should we now add such Macedonian claims to the introduction of the article Greek Macedonia? --Dzole 15:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo are regions in Albania but not ethnic minorities! Regards! Jingby 15:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Im afraid i dont understand your point. There's no reason why should these Bulgarian claims about an unrecognized minority stay in the very beginning of the article? Should I go now to Greek Macedonia article (which is also a region and not minority) and add the Macedonian and/ or Bulgarian name for that province? --Dzole 15:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong! The object of the article is a geographical area, but not any ethnic minority! If you will create an article in Wikipedia - Ethnic Macedonians in Albania! Regards! Jingby 15:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Im afraid you still dont understand. The naming issue of this article was solved previously. Golo BArdo is not in an official use in Albania, as the Bulgarian language is not recognized as official there. In the same way, Egejska Makedonija is not in an official use in Greece for Greek Macedonia as Macedonian minority is not recognized there. There absolutely no reason why you should do this. --Dzole 16:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

"presence of ethnic Bulgarians in Albania"

“I wouldn’t like to offend anyone who would call himself a Macedonian, but in the territory near Lake Prespa there is a school instructing in Bulgarian”. Is what the politician said. He stated there is a school instructing in Bulgarain. He did not "state a presence of ethnic Bulgarians", he just said one school is instructing in Bugarian this does not mean there are any ethnic Bulgarians. Anyone could go to those schools Albanians, Roma's, Aromanians ect... He did not say who is attending that school. Ireland101 16:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The only one Albanian politician has stated Bulgarian involvement in Albania, he was former Prime Minister Aleksander Meksi who stated: ..... And this involvment is in connection with ethnic Bulgarians! Jingby 16:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Disaster

I tried to refrain from politicaly contentious articles for a while but its really impossible, you constantly provoke me to come back.

User: Jingiby despite being blocked for edit warring previously, continues with blatant POV pushing in this article. Also he contuinues with adding questionable sources:

1. Footnote number 5: Ташев 1994: 141-162 стр. (what is this and who is this?)
2. Footnote number 15: сп. Балканите, бр. 18, 2001, с. 5. 7 Ibid. (what is this?)
3. Footnote number 3: Statement referenced to some man named Valeri Grigorov: There is lack of stable ethnic consciousness of this population who easily change their allegiance to either Bulgarian or Macedonian depending on the benefits expected. (end of quote) Obviously a Bulgarian author whose neutrality should be questioned, although allegedly he's speaking from the name of an third party international NGO.

The only proof that the Organization is "neutral" is Jingiby's statement in his edit summary from 09:19, 14 November 2007, quote:
INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR MINORITY STUDIES is not Bulgarian belive!.

If such behaviour is repeatedly allowed in a place that tries to be a serious encyclopedia, then I really dont know what to say. This is obnoxious. I dont have to mention the questionable sources scattered throughout the other Macedonia-related articles ---- Dzole (talk) 19:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations (IMIR) was founded in April 1992 in cooperation with the Center for the Study of Islam and Christian – Muslim Relations (CSIC), Birmingham, UK and the Center for Research in Ethnic Relations (CRER), Warwick, UK. IMIR is a private, non-political, non-profit and non-governmental organization. IMIR is dedicated to the values of peaceful coexistence and tolerant interaction between different cultures, ethnoses and religions in Southeastern Europe and actively works for preservation and integration of all minority communities in Bulgaria. -- Jingby (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Good, but still, the person is Bulgarian and I question the neutrality of his statements. But much more important: explain the points No. 1 and 2 mentioned above ---- Dzole (talk) 19:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

About footnote number 5: Ташев 1994: 141-162 стр. see here [14]. This is translation from the text in Bulgarian and pointing of the name of the resurcher, the pages and the citation - По време на Втората балканска конференция през 1932 г. българската и албанската делегация подписват протокол (Ташев 1994: 141-162), в който албанската страна признава съществуването на българско малцинство в Албания и поема ангажимент да поиска от правителството си откриването на училища в селищата, където българското население е преобладаващо. The text is about the recognition of the Bulgarian minority in Albania in 1932. Do you now better than me that in this periode even the Comintern did not recognised Macedonian nationality! -- Jingby (talk) 19:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

About footnote number 3: Statement referenced to some man named Valeri Grigorov. He is member of Expert council of IMIR for Interdisciplinary and Balkan projects. See here, pleace - [15] -- Jingby (talk) 19:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

How come only Bulgarian members of that IMIR are quoted here like Grigorov and Mangalakova? Can we have some 3rd party observer? And about that Tashev, the link doesnt lead to his works or statements but to a news article which quotes him. How should we know what tashev really said, and after all WHO IS HE, and as a Bulgarian author, why should I consider him neutral? The same question about footnote No. 15.---- Dzole (talk) 20:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Spas Tashev is Director of Bulgarian Culture and Info Center in Skopje, former Director of Stat's Agency for Bulgarians abroad,[16] [17]-- Jingby (talk) 21:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Some publications from him - [18] -- Jingby (talk) 21:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I see, so:

1. You quote an exponent of the official Bulgarian POV? Thats like if I would quote Blazhe Ristevski from MANU or maybe Aleksandar Donski.
2. Moreover that Bulgarian news article[19] says something not so nice about Tashev (like he was using his position to give passports for one day or something, anyway). It says nothing about his academic credentials or his works.
3. you quote what some newspaper quoted (a quote of a quote?) you still havent provided a direct link to his particular work where he says what he says.
4. one of the links you provided leads me to a personal blog (albania-bulgaria.blogspot.com). I can make a blog myself, can we use such thing as a "source" in an encyclopedia? ---- Dzole (talk) 21:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Then it is not posible for the article to exists so. It have to left only the info about the geographical area. The rest have to be divided in two another articles about 350 000 Macedonians in Albania and about 100 000 Bulgarians there. This will be really stupid! -- Jingby (talk) 21:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Dont change the subject ---- Dzole (talk) 21:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Good night! -- Jingby (talk) 21:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes a fine example of scientific behaviour ---- Dzole (talk) 21:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I just added a "proposed principle" regarding editors relying on political junk propaganda sites to the Arbcom page ([20]). I invite everybody to help me draw together the relevant evidence for the Evidence page. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

FutPerf, thats good, but Im not very experienced in using those things. Just note Jingiby's behaviour above, this is obnoxious. Can something be done (permanently) about it? ---- Dzole (talk) 22:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Area inhabited by Slavs only?

The article seems to imply that the area is homogeneous with Slav inhabitants. That is, Pogradec, Devoll, Librazhd, Elbasan, and Debar are all inhabited by Slav speakers. Do any Albanians live there? --PG-Rated (talk) 20:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Does this region have an official Albanian name?

If yes, the title of this article is blatant irredentist propaganda and must be changed asap. We're talking about Albanian territory!--   Avg    20:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I've already proposed that to the last POV pusher who wanted this to be an article about Ethnic Macedonians only, but he didn't wanna listen (see section "Proposed move"). Here's the Albanian name (used on De wiki) "Golloborda". Mala Prespa is a different place and the two articles should be split and refer to the geography and so ons of the regions. --Laveol ^T 20:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It's ridiculous the amount of POV pushing these guys do. Let's see how they'll feel when the Albanians will start their own article on the "Albanian territories in RoM" (not simply "Albanians in RoM"). Waiting to see their arguments then.--   Avg    20:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you spell double standards

Enjoy: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ilirida. ESPECIALLY the comments :-) --   Avg    19:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry - there are even two articles on the same issue - look at Macedonians in Albania. --Laveol ^T 19:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

And Greater Albania. It's funny that you accuse us of double standards, because if Aegean Macedonia is nominated, being somewhat equivalent to Ilirida, we would be "FYROMian propagandists". If you don't have anything constructive to do here then go away. BalkanFever 22:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, as you see, Aegean Macedonia is not nominated and this speaks volumes about who is what. Oh and rest assured, I will never go away. You'll find me in front of you in every article you'll try to push your propaganda. I'm watching all the articles you've contributed. --   Avg    00:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)