Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

RfC request

I started a Third Opinion request, have been told that RfC is more appropriate. The question is "Whether or not NLP is a pseudo-science or a psychological method?" htom (talk) 05:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The tool doesn't have an option to put this into a group like Medicine or Psychology. :( If someone knows how to do that, it would help. htom (talk) 05:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Pseudoscience. I believe there are references for this somewhere in Neuro-linguistic programming and science and Neuro-linguistic programming#Criticism and controversy. For further explanation I'll refer you to this comment (from this article's failed FAC), which I agree with wholeheartedly. rʨanaɢ (talk) 06:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

  And by the way, categorizing this RFC under Language and Linguistics is not really appropriate; neuro-linguistic programming has nothing to do with linguistics other than the fact that they unfortunately share part of the name. rʨanaɢ (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I was not especially happy with the choices given in the tool; that was closest. Linguistics used to be the study of communication through symbols, and in that old-fashioned sense there is a stronger association than the use of the letter string "linguistic". Can you add it to lists I think more appropriate, medicine or psychology or psychotherapy, please? Thank you. htom (talk) 15:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

References to pseudo-science are clearly given in the article. --Snowded ^TALK 08:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Hasn't this been discussed already? What exactly is the question here? Does someone have a problem with the Pseudoscience category? Or any cited and attributed mentions of "pseudoscience" in this article in general? What's the problem? We're not having a debate amongst us whether NLP is this or that, our own opinions are irrelevant. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 16:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

We have a small group of SPAs who would like it removed, or so qualified as to be meaningless. We have been asking them to come up with sources for months but they have failed to do so. There have been various slow edit wars trying to remove referenced material. All the sort of thing you get on articles like this. --Snowded ^TALK 16:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh deer. I requested semi-protection earlier, just for the IP(s), but no one's reacted yet. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 16:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I do not see how something should be labeled a "pseudo-science" when it does not claim to be scientific. Some (I have not looked at all, or even most) of the citations seem to be attributing the failure of new teachings several generations removed from NLP to NLP, rather than to those new teachings. Some of those new teachings do claim to be scientific, and are properly so labeled. NLP did not make that claim, and should not be tarred with the sins of its errant grandchildren.

Snowded seems to think I'm a SPA; why, I don't know. I think it's name-calling and wish s/he'd stop. It makes it hard to AGF. htom (talk) 17:13, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

(I think they were referring to the other ones, not you.) — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 17:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

When my objections are swept up as if that's what I am, then it's easy to make that mistake. I mostly think the article here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neuro-linguistic_programming&action=historysubmit&diff=97563191&oldid=97548346 )(the first pair compared when I asked for 2006) is far, far better, and does a much more balanced discussion of the pseudo-science flavors of some of NLP's descendants. The current article approaches being an anti-NLP screed. htom (talk) 17:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

You can't argue against sources. You say that NLP does not claim to be scientific. That is your opinion, but it means nothing here (the same goes for my view that it does ). The very very simply point is that a body of reliable sources say it is. Therefore that is reflected properly in the article. No you are not an SPA, but you are about the only NLP advocate here who isn't. --Snowded ^TALK 17:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

When the sources are misused, I can and have. Here, that's ignored. I am trying to be an NPOV advocate, but it appears that's not desired here, if the current article is really considered to be better than the version I linked to just above. htom (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

If you can provide diffs to your points you say got missed or ignored and they relate to this RFC then we can address them in here. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 01:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Just to give an alternative viewpoint. I don't believe in NLP as a personal opinion, but as previously stated personal opinions do not matter. However the label pseudo-science implies judgement made by the author/s of the article. The scientific method does not have an outcome of "pseudo-scientific". Science is the acquisition of knowledge through gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. It maybe both that NLP has been scientifically discredited, and can be criticised for using pseudo-scientific terms - but labelling NLP as pseudoscientific applies a judgement on behalf of the reader that does not need to be made. Suggest the way forward is to remove the judgement statement, and enhancing both the techniques section and measurable evidence/critique (Tiiischiii (talk) 02:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC))

I wonder how much of this criticism from linguists is driven by jealousy of Grinder's success and turf wars? Wosow (1985) provided some insight: "Linguistic theorists who leave the ivory tower are eyed with suspicion and treated as tainted. Consider, for example, what is undoubtedly the greatest commercial success to have descended (in one sense, at least) from generative grammar, namely Neurolinguistic Programming. One might think that the fact that Grinder is no longer a poor boy like his former colleagues in academia would have made him a hero to them. Far from it. Obviously, linguists don't know what side their bread is buttered on. Perhaps this is a sign of the integrity of our discipline. However, the fact that we have no more respectable applications to offer in its place raises questions about our status as a science" - Wasow, T. (1985). Comment: The wizards of Ling. Natural Language and Linguistic Theory, 3(3), 485-492. Wosow is now a professor of linguistics at Stanford.[1] --122.108.140.210 (talk) 04:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

It already seems tendentious. Criticisms from Corballis, Drenth, Stollznow and others answer this point and come decades after the Wazow comment. Since 1985 practical application of linguistics and neurolinguistics have multiplied. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 04:53, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

LKK, You missed the point. To date there are still no respectable applications of generative grammar. Ask any linguist, especially a Chomskyan, before answering that question. --122.108.140.210 (talk) 13:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with 122.108.140.21 and Wasow, Professor of Linguistics at Stanford University, in the view NLP is a psychological and communication model.

I'm not going to call anyone out individually, because this decision can be made based on ideas alone. But 122.108 is right to mention turf war. The most active Editor smearing NLP in this article runs a competing seminar business that is conflated with NLP, meaning considered absolutely identical in the marketplace. (Conflated was his own word on his website, and he deleted it from his talk page when it was pointed out there, because it exposed his dishonesty about declaring "no COI.")

That Editor is very similar to HeadleyDown, who the administrators banned in 2006 when this page was cleaned up. He advocates for the same references as banned HeadleyDown. He was born near the town of HeadleyDown. His family owned a home in HeadleyDown. He is affiliated with the same University in Hong Kong as Headley Down. Yet amazingly he slipped by all these years without anyone connecting those dots, or those who connected the dots took no action on it.

Again, it's not necessary to call anyone out individually because the ideas alone make the argument successfully. One of the best selling books by NLP founders Bandler and Grinder is "Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson." That book was endorsed by Ernest Rossi, one of the leading psychoanalysts in the world. By endorsed, I mean that Rossi edited it.

The argument of pseudoscience fails completely when you consider Rossi's credentials: The American Psychotherapy Association (which publishes the peer reviewed journal "The Annals"), describes Rossi this way: "He received the Lifetime Achievement Award for Outstanding Contributions to the Field of Psychotherapy from the Erickson Foundation in 1980 and from the American Psychotherapy Association in 2003. He also received the 2004 Thomas P. Wall Award for Excellence in Teaching Clinical Hypnosis. Today he conducts training workshops sponsored by his nonprofit organization, the Ernest Lawrence Rossi Foundation for Psychosocial Genomic Research." Here is the source for that reference: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/American+Psychotherapy+Association%27s+2005+National+Conference.-a0134955718 Obviously Bandler and Grinder's book is academically credible.

Rossi was also involved in substantial neuroscientific research. Here is a list of a dozen academic studies and papers on neuroscientific subjects: http://www.ernestrossi.com/ernestrossi/Neuroscienceresearchgroup.html One of those studies about the language models described in Bandler & Grinder's book was co-authored by David Atkinson, President of Grant MacEwan University, and former president of Kwantlen Polytechnic University and two Ontario universities, Brock University in St. Catharines and Carleton University in Ottawa.

We are talking about academic heavy weights who support Bandler and Grinder. You wouldn't know that from this article.--Encyclotadd (talk) 05:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

That is all entirely irrelevant. An appeal to authority doesn't prove anything about the status of the field, especially one so tenuous as you describe above. (Rossi's name does not even appear on the Google Books entry.) rʨanaɢ (talk) 06:41, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

And the personal attacks, based on an off wiki website which seems to co-ordinate the SPAs who plague this page, are getting very very tedious. None of those accusations have survived any formal investigation its just a juvenile smear campaign which reflects badly on Encyclotadd and his many predecessors. --Snowded ^TALK 09:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I would appreciate, Snowded, if you would not insinuate personal attacks against me such as SPA or meat puppet. You have provided no evidence and the attacks are baseless.

Also you are distracting from the important ideas by bringing up formal allegations against you that were made by other Editors, and your " surviving " them. That's hardly a credential and has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

If this subject is found to be a psychological model, ideas will be the solitary basis for the decision. Towards that end, note Editor 122.108.140 comments two paragraphs below in which he points out that Google scholar returns 900 "scholarly" articles that cite Bandler and Grinder's 1979 "Frogs into Princes." You wouldn't know so many academics are citing NLP founders work from reading this Wikipedia article.--Encyclotadd (talk) 19:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

You are an SPA Encyclotadd, a simple examination of your edit history shows it; its a factual statement unlike your nonsense about HedleyDown. It is also factually true that you are the latest in a long series of SPA accounts that have taken a pro-NLP stance on these articles over the year and it is also factually true that you are repeating material here from NLP web sites relating to Wikipedia. I haven't at this stage made an accusation of meat puppetry although I am thinking about it. If I do I will make the case at ANI and notify you accordingly. Otherwise your last paragraph is, shall we say surprising unless you are unfamiliar with the way references are made in academic articles. If I wrote a hostile article about NLP I would cite Bandler and Grinder; citation is not the same thing as endorsement. Also as has been pointed out to you time and time and time again, we try and avoid primary sources when we edit Wikipedia. --Snowded ^TALK 19:56, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

That's factually inaccurate. I'm a newbie, and that's very different from an SPA. I've edited more articles on Wikipedia than most people who joined the community just a few months ago. All of my edits have been well referenced.

Snowded, I would remind you that you were not called out in the Headley Down comment above. You just jumped right out in front of it like it was a moving train, and then reacted emotionally. Sorry for touching a nerve. I promise not to make any more Headley Down comments that hit so close to "home."

Now, let's focus again on the 900 academic papers citing NLP. I will start going through them because rather than talking about academic findings in abstract terms, we would be much better off being specific.--Encyclotadd (talk) 00:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

(sigh) You have just repeated accusations here that you have made directly elsewhere Encyclotadd, Your "I didn't call you out directly" will fool no one. You are simply trying to get around the fact you have been warned twice for making personal attacks. Not aware of any emotion in my response but if that is how you see it c'est la vie. Otherwise your resolution to start going through academic sources is a welcome one I look forward to the results. --Snowded ^TALK 08:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• Pseudoscience Looking through the extensive list of citations, most are media reports, books, and self-published articles. I can find only few papers that appear to be from peer-reviewed journals the field, and I can find abstracts of only two of them online. And they both say the same thing.[2] [3] And unless I'm missing something, in favor of the notion in the above discussion I see a whole lot of appeals to authority a little bit of ad hominem, and really nothing else. --Quintucket (talk) 12:31, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

You can have the last word on this so that we can discuss the well referenced facts about this article again. Towards that end, please comment on this statement from a peer reviewed source written just a few months ago (see APA's psychinfo): "The efficacy of NLP as a therapy or as a personal development program is yet to be ascertained." --Encyclotadd (talk) 17:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

What search terms did you use? What databases did you search? Psychinfo has a whole category dedicated to "Neurolinguistic programming". You can also use "Bandler+Grinder" as a search term in psychinfo for a broader result. And Google scholar returns 900 "scholarly" articles that cite Bandler and Grinder's 1979 "Frogs into Princes". --122.108.140.210 (talk) 12:51, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes Quintucket. Its not enough that you make such a sweeping statement. You are under the burden here to demonstrate how neuro-linguistic programming (a modeling technique that is explicitly stated to be not a science) can be pseudoscience. I am sure we all eagerly await your attempt. Congru (talk) 01:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• REAL, doesn't always work, is used by cults or cult-like organizations such as NXIVM, is potentially a very dangerous form of mind control. Not unlike hypnosis. Some are more suggestable than others and depends on many factors. Chrisrus (talk) 05:56, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The journal Counseling and Psychotherapy Research found in 2010 that, "Neuro-linguistic psychotherapy is an efficient intervention, which is on par with other well established psycho therapeutic techniques." http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14733140903225240?journalCode=rcpr20#preview

According to the peer-reviewed American Journal of Forensic Psychology, "[NLP has] the capability to enhance the listeners' ability to relate to the subject of the testimony, to maintain their attention, and to increase their interest in the material presented." http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1993-35734-001

According to the peer-reviewed The International Journal of Environmental, Cultural, Economic and Social Sustainability, "One NLP technique to help individuals reflect deeply on situations and relationships, and that has yielded promising results, is called ‘Perceptual Positions’. This approach has been adapted and piloted for use in individual and group workshops to help participants access personal beliefs and values in relation to sustainability." http://ijs.cgpublisher.com/product/pub.41/prod.244

According to Australian Journal of Clinical & Experimental Hypnosis, which appears in the American Psychological Association's psychinfo, "A basic NLP technique, enhanced by hypnotic language patterns, worked effectively to bring about successful outcomes." http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi?action=res_record&files=214_rdb.dat&f_count=1

Dissertation Abstracts International writes that, "The study focused on neurolinguistic programming (NLP), the model or tool utilized in gathering and reporting of data. This communication-based interviewing model was selected because its clinical approach offered a replicable model in addition to having sound theoretical principles." http://dc.library.okstate.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Dissert&CISOPTR=6237&CISOBOX=1&REC=9

According to Journal of Marital & Family Therapy, "NLP's major contributions involve understanding new models of human experience." http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi?action=res_record&files=219_rdb.dat&f_count=1

The journal of Academic Therapy writes that, "Anchoring, a neuro-linguistic programing technique, was successful in helping a sixth grader with learning disabilities reduce his anxiety reaction to math tasks. " http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ331480&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ331480

This was thirty minutes of research-- imagine how many supportive academic documents can be found in a week or a month.--Encyclotadd (talk) 09:39, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm indenting this because I'm adding this information out of chronological order. But I think it's important that this be understood clearly by every new Editor who reads this section.

A professor of psychology at New Dehli University expresses the following view:

Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) as an effective interpersonal communication model and an alternative approach to psychotherapy is used quite frequently in corporate, health and education sectors. Practitioners of NLP provide intervention in the fields of relaxation, phobia, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), allergy as well as in peak performance training. While it seems quite fascinating to see a wide range of practitioners in the field, the trend also warrants possible misuse of the concept. The efficacy of NLP as a therapy or as a personal development program is yet to be ascertained. Till date, NLP is applied without a theory. The scientific community seems not serious, when its practitioners claim that "NLP is heavily pragmatic: if a tool works, it's included in the model, even i f there is no theory to back it up….. ", thus, discouraging a scientific inquiry. The title neurolinguistic programming implies a basis in neurology (lacks evidence), computer science, and linguistics, but marketed as a new science or new age form of psychotherapy, judged simply pseudoscientific by the skeptics. These views made scientific research in this field less appealing among researchers. A review on the current trends and practices in NLP is presented here with a direction for future research in the field.

Not how he disagree specifically with the Skeptics. This is a reliable source because it appears in the American Psychological Association's database of peer reviewed articles and journals, and this quote is recent (summer 2011).--Encyclotadd (talk) 03:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Encyclotadd, your use of external references is rather irresponsible. Half of the quotes you just presented you didn't provide references for, so I have nothing to say about them. Of the ones you did provide references for, some are primary research studies (Stipancic 2010, Mayers 2003, Cureen 1995, Thalgott 1986), which do not provide evidence about the scientific community's perception of NLP (which is what this RFC was supposed to be about); they only provide results about a specific sample using a specific methodology, and without looking at other studies (or even looking beyond the abstracts of the studies you cite) you won't be aware of limitations of these primary studies. Some of the papers are far too old to be of any relevance now (Thalgott 1986, Davis & Davis 1983, Davis 1984)--they don't show anything about the current perception of NLP. Appropriate references would be more recent review or meta-analysis articles. Where you did cite those, you did so irresponsibly; at the top of this section you cited the Biswal (2011) paper as if it supports the idea that NLP is a real science, but nowhere in the abstract does the author say that, and in the full text the author specifically refutes that notion (note particularly pp. 50 and on, including the sections "Review of NLP literature research" and "Lack of scientific validity", where he explains that empirical data do not support the claims of NLP and clearly states that there is no justification for calling NLP a 'science'). The Murray et al. (2002) abstract, as well, doesn't say anything about NLP's status is a science, it just apparently says that one NLP technique was useful for something (and note that this article is not a scientific article or in a science journal, it's an applied journal); I wasn't able to access the full text so I can't say more. This brings me to my next point, which is that you appear to only have read (and not even understood) the abstracts of all these studies, but not the actual text, and thus totally missed the point of what these articles are saying, particularly with the Biswal (2011) paper (which you bafflingly call "Pro-NLP Paper"). You also don't seem to understand that articles reflect the views of their authors, not the journals publishing them (and even less so the database in which you found the article), given that you are saying ridiculous things like "Dissertation Abstracts argues that....". Sorry, but the articles you've dug up don't support whatever you seem to be trying to say and they don't address the numerous references already in the article that show NLP is a pseudoscience, and I have no confidence in your ability to responsibly read and use external sources. rʨanaɢ (talk) 17:11, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Rjanag, It's ironic you claim to have read the sources when it's apparent you didn't read my messages referencing them. I said (twice) those quotes were found in under thirty minutes. It was disclosed twice they were dug up in haste. You also fail in your response to consider the reliability of new sources in context of ones appearing in the article. It's true the ones brought up newly on this talk page are of varying weight-- we're even referencing dissertations. But the vast number of Skeptic Society references (debated extensively elsewhere on this talk page) are generally not peer reviewed at all. The ones that are peer reviewed are strongly opposed in other journals. (Sharpley, for example, appears without qualification in the lede. But several articles in psyhcinfo say he failed to note major problems with the studies he as reviewing.) In order for Wikipedia to claim NPOV in this article, balance and factual accuracy must be restored. I hope you will join me in calling for it.--Encyclotadd (talk) 06:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I fail to see why saying twice that you dug these up in haste (your words) justifies the behaviour. Also you appear to be making claims on your reading of the abstracts alone. None of them are comparative studies, many of them just argue for more research. I really can't see what you are suggesting. None of these challenge the current referenced material (unless you plan some original research), some of them might support edits to the text outside of the criticism section but you have made no proposals. --Snowded ^TALK 08:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

What I was saying is that it was obvious from 30 minutes of research that there are peer reviewed perspectives not finding voice in this article. I have every intention of doing more research because this article is in need of balancing. I hope other Editors will join me in the effort.--Encyclotadd (talk) 08:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

When you do that research I suggest you do more than skim the abstracts for what you think are favourable statements. Reading sources is generally commended to researchers, thinking about them in context a real bonus. You also need to address Rjang's points. --Snowded ^TALK 10:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

It appears that other editors here (you know who I am referring to) have been skimming articles for less favorable statements to suit their own point of view. There needs to be a balance of different perspectives according to weight. Its not easy but can be done. --122.x.x.x (talk) 09:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know who. If you're referring to me and the Biswal article--I did not skim that article, I read it, and it's not just a few unfavorable statements here and there. One of the article's main points is that NLP lacks scientific rigor, that is not open to debate, that's simply the fact of what the article is. I'm not going to try to argue over what an article is about with people who haven't even read it. rʨanaɢ (talk) 11:41, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. I was saying it is real, and therefore not psudoscience. But I was also saying that I'm concerned or alarmed by its potential for use by cult-like organizations or such to mind-control people. I did not speak of it's potential for good. You have established that it seems to have real benefits for great good based on these citations. However, are there no citations that express any alarm or concern for its potential as a mind-control tool for suseptable individuals? Chrisrus (talk) 19:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I'm late to the party but it doesn't seem to be sufficient that a few published psychotherapists label something as a pseudoscience.

In order to be classed as a pseudoscience on WP, it must be "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community" WP:FRINGE/PS. Is anyone claiming that and if so, where are your sources? --Mindjuicer (talk) 03:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A quick search of the Letters archive at The Psychologist should convince you that most members of the British Psychological Society hold NLP in distain. However, this doesn't satisfy WP:RS. One of the problems with determining that something is "generally considered pseudoscience" is that nobody wants to lend it credibility by dissing it. Famousdog (talk) 11:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A quick search showed nothing of what you mentioned. Not only is it not a RS, the BPS is not representative of the scientific community and disdain <> pseudoscience.

I suspect that there are NLP practitioners who promote themselves using pseudoscience -- but this does not qualify NLP as a pseudoscience according to WP categorisation. Nor does it justify the perjorative usage of "pseudoscience" in the lead. --Mindjuicer (talk) 18:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The lede summarises the article. There are more than enough references in the article to pseudoscience to justify its use in the lede. ----Snowded ^TALK 22:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if a supposedly neutral editor would want such a pejorative word in the lead.

Basic WP policy is "Articles mustn't take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias." WP:NPOV. That means that pejorative language must not be used, especially in the lead. --Mindjuicer (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Mindjuicer, we don't make our own rules here. There is no policy against using pejoratives in articles. We do it all the time. If the sources use pejoratives, we use pejoratives. We follow the sources. (Quack and fraud are two that come to mind.) If we added pejoratives when the sources did not do so, that would be wrong, but that's not what's happening here. "Neutral" and "without bias" does not refer to content, but to editorial motivations that are revealed by using words and meanings not found in the sources, IOW OR and SYNTH violations. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I am looking for precedent on pejoratives. I've yet to see anyone but you say it's OK. Your last sentence is not policy. Also, stop stalking me. That goes for Famousdog too. --Mindjuicer (talk) 22:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Try and avoid making silly remarks on other editors and focus on content issues. Wikipedia policy is clear, we reflect reliable sources we do not balance between pro and anti NLP positions. A significant amount of those sources say it is a pseudoscience so the content, and then the lede reflect that fact. ----Snowded ^TALK 01:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If the cap fits, wear it. I'm looking to see why this article is such a mess and you're putting yourself forwards as the first POV-pushing suspect.

The word "pseudoscience" is highly pejorative. What part of "fairly and without bias" do you not understand? --Mindjuicer (talk) 02:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For the second time, please focus on content issues not your opinion of other editors. Reliable third party sources say it is a pseudoscience. We reflect those sources fairly and without bias. We are not required to balance between the views of NLP advocates and those they call skeptics. If you think the balance is wrong, then the onus is on you to provide counter sources to those already identified. ----Snowded ^TALK 02:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And how does including highly pejorative language allow other viewpoints backed by reliable sources to be represented fairly? Your assertions contradict core WP policy. --Mindjuicer (talk) 03:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

it se the language used by the sources so it's what we use. That is Wikipedia core policy. We do balance across all reliable sources so please provide some which say it is not a pseudoscience (and that does not include OR or synthesis and we can look at if the balance is correct or not. Pit. Your energy into that, rather than attacking other editors. ----Snowded ^TALK 04:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I strongly recommend adopting a policy of WP:SILENCE toward Mindjuicer. What you are witnessing, I both suspect and hope, are the death throes of an editor about to be blocked for outrageous behaviour. Famousdog (talk) 10:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Mindjuicer. The article is an indictment that's not even remotely encyclopedic. He's right to call out the perpetrators.

If the Wikipedia community understood the obfuscation that has taken place, there would be an uproar.--Encyclotadd (talk) 11:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Please stop making implications and accusations without providing evidence and assume good faith, Encyclotadd. Obfuscation? Please. NLP is obfuscation exemplified. Which parts of the article are not "remotely encyclopedic"? Which editors are "perpetrators" of this "obfuscation"? If you have evidence to show to the Wikipedia community, please do so and we'll see if there is any "uproar". Back up your accusations with diffs or don't bother responding - I've had enough evidence-free editorialising and empty words from Mindjuicer in the last week to last me a lifetime. Famousdog (talk) 12:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Good point, when I looked at the ANI example and other edits its obvious there is a more generic issue here linked to pseudoscience in general. Encyclotadd is already under a warning for personal attacks and could end up in a similar place. ----Snowded ^TALK 13:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The phrase "please focus on content issues not your opinion of other editors" springs to mind. "NLP is obfuscation exemplified" is noted as evidence of CoI. --Mindjuicer (talk) 22:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Witkowski

There are several references to Witkowski in this article...

• Witkowski (2010) states that NLP uses impressive sounding yet questionable expressions such as; pragmagraphics, surface structure, deep structure, accessing cues, non-accessing movement etc.
• Witkowski (2010) writes that "NLP represents pseudoscientific rubbish, which should be mothballed forever."
• Witkowski (2010) also states that at the neuronal level NLP provides no explanation at all and has nothing in common with academic linguistics or programming.
• According to Witkowski (2010), NLP also appears on “the list of discredited therapies” published in the journal of Professional Psychology: Research and Practice.

These are quite extreme statements which are inconsistent with other papers. I'd first think we should remove the line "According to Witkowski (2010), NLP also appears on “the list of discredited therapies” published in the journal of Professional Psychology: Research and Practice." and just cite the Norcross poll directly. At the moment it is misleading. Witkowski cites a delphi poll carried out by Norcross et al in 2006. Adding "according to Witkowski..." adds nothing to the article. He is not notable and it is not published in a high ranking journal. Witkowski adds nothing to the article on this point. So just cite Norcross directly, briefly describe the method, conclusions and any limitations. --122.x.x.x (talk) 08:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I seem to remember that "According to W" was added in by one of your previous identities but I could be wrong. Citing Norcross direct without the "according to .." is fine. However I don't see any need to "describe the method/limitations" unless there is a source which does that and can be referenced. I also see you have returned to the ranking arguments you advocated before. You might want to remind yourself of the discussion then. There is no question that the journal referenced is a reliable source, and remember NLP is fringe at best and that will be reflected in where comparative studies or evaluations are published. --Snowded ^TALK 08:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Why do you need to mention Witskowski at all. Just let Nocross poll speak for itself. I'll make the edit and see what you think. --122.x.x.x (talk) 08:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

No objection to removing "According to W", every objection to your repeating past attempts to qualify the research findings. So for anything more than that simple removal please discuss here first. I see you are now returning to all the same subjects and sources that you went through in your previous ID. Repeating patterns ... --Snowded ^TALK 08:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The Witkowski statement was added to satisfy a repeated request from other editors for a view on what the Norcross research can be called. Witkowski calls it a list of discredited treatments. Considering the history and the explanation value I think it should stay. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 09:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

There must be something lost in translation here. I am proposing that we remove the Witkowski comment about Norcross' 2006 poll and just describe the method, results and conclusions with any limitations if relevant as identified by the authors. Its a two stage poll using the delphi methodology. In the first stage NLP scored X and in the second stage it scored Y. blah blah... You get the idea. Would that sort of thing be acceptable to you two? --122.x.x.x (talk) 13:09, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Witkowski is a reliable source for the statement. It should stay. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 13:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Witkowski is actually a VERY poor reference. Again the language is poor with a bad translation that may have lost a lot in the change. There should be a MUCH more serious effort going on in this article to deal with dreadful badly written sources that misquote and plagiarize research. Congru (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

That is your opinion, if you think its not a reliable source then raise that at the appropriate notice board. You might want to moderate your language a bit if you do so, its pretty poor but it may I suppose be badly translated. --Snowded ^TALK 12:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Nocross 2008?

Text in question: "in papers reviewing discredited interventions for substance and alcohol abuse, Norcross et al. (2008)[19] list NLP in the “top ten” most discredited"

I think the current reference to Nocross 2008 is wrong. What does the source actually say? What study was it based on? It currently cites "Norcross, John C. , Thomas P. Hogan, Gerald P. Koocher (2008) Clinician's Guide to Evidence-based Practices. Oxford University Press, USA ISBN 978-0-19-533532-3 (Page 198)" but I could not find any reference to NLP in that book. Perhaps the reference was meant to be:

• Was the source meant to be: Fala, N. C., Norcross, J. C., Koocher, G. P., & Wexler, H. K. (2008, August). What doesn’t work? Discredited treatments in the addictions. Poster presented at the 116th annual convention of the American Psychological Association, Boston, MA. --122.x.x.x (talk) 08:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It is in Clinicians Guide..(2008). That is a reliable source. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 09:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Good call, LKK, on it being in the Clinician's Guide. You're right. 122, you're right that the reference appears incorrectly. Norcross does not state that NLP was discredited. The list it appears in has a different title, and shows NLP to be more successful than other main stream methods such as certain kinds of Fruedian and Jungian analysis. How do we handle such an incorrectly expressed reference in this article?--Encyclotadd (talk) 09:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

What exactly does it say in the "Clinician's Guide" and what is the evidence? Can you give a quote and page numbers? --122.x.x.x (talk) 12:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Your request has been asked before: [4], and answered before [5]. Your activities here appear to be disruptive. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 13:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

There is a "Neurolinguistic programming for drug and alcohol dependence" under the title "Top 10 Discredited Substance Abuse Treatments" (p.198). There are two studies cited at the end of the table: one was "Norcross, Koocher, & Garafalo (2006). the other was an unpublished study by Norcross, Koocher, Fala, & Wexler, (2007). The 2007 paper has since been published as Norcross, J.C., Koocher, G.P., Fala, N.C. and Wexler, H. W. (2010) "What Does Not Work? Expert Consensus on Discredited Treatments in the Addictions, Journal of Addiction Medicine, Vol. 4, No. 3. pages 174-180. So discard your "Clinician's Guide" and go with the one published in Journal of Addiction Medicine. --122.x.x.x (talk) 14:15, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

we went through all of this with you before and removed the compRiaon to others on the list such as dolphin therapy. You are raising no new evidence over the last time you raised the issue, just doi g the same thing under your new ID. That is highly disruptive behaviour --Snowded ^TALK 14:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I really think we should get a third party opinion on this because I don't think you checked the sources before making your revert. You claim that there is no new evidence but that is not correct because I have provided new evidence: Norcross, J.C., Koocher, G.P., Fala, N.C. and Wexler, H. W. (2010) "What Does Not Work? Expert Consensus on Discredited Treatments in the Addictions, Journal of Addiction Medicine, Vol. 4, No. 3. pages 174-180. I have also checked the sources and found that the "top ten" list that you cite was based on two polls run between 2004 and 2006: One study focused on Mental and behavioural disorders: Norcross, J.C., Koocher, G.P., & Garafalo, A. (2006). Discredited psychological treatments and tests: A Delphi poll. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 37. 515-522. The second study was not published in a peer-reviewed journal until 2010: Norcross, J.C., Koocher, G.P., Fala, N.C. and Wexler, H. W. (2010) "What Does Not Work? Expert Consensus on Discredited Treatments in the Addictions, Journal of Addiction Medicine, Vol. 4, No. 3. pages 174-180. Please address the actual evidence. --122.x.x.x (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

No editor is preventing you from raising the evidence (again). It is the fact that you are unilaterally adding material to the article while no consensus has been reached here that is the problem. That is what is being labeled disruptive. ISTB351 (talk) 21:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

And you are edit warring again, just like last time. Also you are (again) presenting your interpretation of the material, that is original research and/or synthesis. --Snowded ^TALK 22:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I offer no interpretation of the sources. What do you mean by that? It is just a statement of fact. There are two studies by Norcross that included NLP. Can you accept that basic fact? If not, I don't think we can have a reasonable discussion. --122.x.x.x (talk) 22:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

You started this discussion with this "Text in question: "in papers reviewing discredited interventions for substance and alcohol abuse, Norcross et al. (2008)[19] list NLP in the “top ten” most discredited" I think the current reference to Nocross 2008 is wrong. What does the source actually say? What study was it based on?". You were questioning the source by asking what was it based on, that is not what we do at WP, see WP:OR. Furthermore, the reference to Norcross et al (2008) is correct, and can be verified here at Table 7.2, on p 198. The source is reliable and verifiable. I will assume that your claim that you "could not find any reference to NLP in that book" was made in good faith, but if you continue with this line others may conclude that you are hoaxing. I will close this discussion in consequence. ISTB351 (talk) 22:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I was able to get that book out and verified the page numbers. If we do not ignore the fact that the link you posted is copyright infringement, we can say it is easily verifiable. I'm not denying that NLP appear on the second list concerning alcohol and drug abuse. On my original copy, if you look at p.199 of Norcross et al (2008) it says "From Norcross, Koocher, & Garafalo (2006). Norcross, Koocher, Fala, & Wexler, (2007)." The first one is Norcross, Koocher, & Garafalo (2006) which is: Norcross, J.C., Koocher, G.P., & Garafalo, A. (2006). Discredited psychological treatments and tests: A Delphi poll. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 37. 515-522. and the second one was an unpublished study that was finally published in 2010 as I stated above. I will take you word for it that this is also in the plagiarized version. What I am saying is that we should cite the studies directly. To my best of my knowledge, my position is in line with wikipedia policy in terms of reliable sources and verifiability as both studies have a DOI and can easily be found at any university library. --122.x.x.x (talk) 01:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes good point. In fact we should be able to cite ALL sources, not just the ones that suit the pseudoskeptics. Congru (talk) 01:33, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

All sources? I don't understand your point. The authors are essentially the same, just the ones I cited had better weight because they were published in good journals. --122.x.x.x (talk) 01:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I am talking on a slightly broader point. I mean several of the cites here [6] should be allowed into the article. Many of them are positive and from good sources. Congru (talk) 01:46, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The top ten claim is now cited to Norcross et al. (2010), although it makes no difference to the substantive material in the article. I will close the discussion. ISTB351 (talk) 01:57, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Don't close the discussion yet. We still need to discuss the change in wording. --122.x.x.x (talk) 02:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• Proposed change: Polls by Norcross et al (2006; 2010) sought to establish expert-consensus concerning discredited psychological interventions ranked NLP between possibly or probably discredited for the treatment of mental and behavioural disorders and certainly discredited for substance and alcohol abuse.

--122.x.x.x (talk) 02:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

You could then also mention the lists work in the evidence based practice clinical manuals because they are also notable. --122.x.x.x (talk) 02:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Your proposed edit attempts to qualify research findings with language such as "Polls that sought to establish". We do not question research findings here, we only report them. Your language falls foul of WP:Weasel in any case. There is no reason why the top ten claim should be removed. NLP is ranked seventh with a mean of 4.24 on p 177 of Norcross et al. (2010). If absolutely necessary, Norcross et al. (2006) can be cited in support. I see no compelling reason why the edit should be made, and you have given none. Let's see if any other editors take a different view. ISTB351 (talk) 02:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Requests that have already been satisfied [7]: User talk page accusations [8][9]. It's the same repeat pattern of disruption that is ongoing. There is no reason for the proposed edit to be made. There is also less reason to spend effort on trying to satisfy disruptive requests. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 02:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

ISTB351: I think you are misguided on that point. Try this wording: "Polls by Nocross et al (2006, 2010) sought to establish expert-consensus...". This wording is fine according to the WP:Weasel. The guideline gives and example: 'It is, of course, acceptable to introduce some fact or opinion and attribute it in an inline citation. e.g. "Research by Wong et al, 1996, has shown that rabies can be cured by acupuncture".' --122.x.x.x (talk) 12:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

"has shown" per your example is not the same as "sought to establish". Sorry you keep trying to modify this text to imply that there is something wrong with the research. If you have a reliable source which says that then we will need to balance over the range of sources. Without such a source your opinion does not count (not would anyone else's). I think we can close this now --Snowded ^TALK 19:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not a weasel word. These are the actual words used by the authors of the study in their abstract "In the context of intense interest in evidence-based practice (EBP), the authors sought to establish consensus on discredited psychological treatments and assessments using Delphi methodology." --122.x.x.x (talk) 22:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Which is at the start of the paper, they then went on to do it which is what we report. --Snowded ^TALK 06:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

That is not at the start of the paper. The abstract is normally written after the results are in and the paper is completed. --122.x.x.x (talk) 07:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Funnily enough with a fair amount of my papers to my name I know that. The abstract summarises the process they went through. This is a real waste of time, in your last incarnation (I will find the reference next week) you wasted a huge amount of editors time on exactly the same references. Please stop. --Snowded ^TALK 10:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that we just need to report the conclusions without providing any indication of the aim, method or results? I think we need to give just enough detail so that the reader knows what the results mean. I'll get some advice from some more experienced Wikipedian and report back. --122.x.x.x (talk) 13:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Previously discussed, it is not legitimate to return to a resolved issue just by changing your name --Snowded ^TALK 13:15, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I made a change that tried to take into account your objections [10] --122.x.x.x (talk) 23:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Plagiarism by Witkowski

Just looking into the wording "sought" to see if it was used widely.... Someone should have run Witkowski's paper through turn-it-in before submission. This must be embarressing for the integrity of the journal because Witkowski also plagiarized one of Heaps papers by copying and pasting large chunks without using quotes and page numbers.

Compare this: "Norcross, Koocher and Garofalo (2006) sought to establish consensus on discredited psychological treatments and assessments using Delphi methodology. A panel of 101 experts participated in a 2-stage survey, reporting familiarity with 59 treatments and 30 assessment techniques and rating these on a continuum from not at all discredited (1) to certainly discredited (5)."(p.21)[11]

with this from Norcross (2006) abstract: "In the context of intense interest in evidence-based practice (EBP), the authors sought to establish consensus on discredited psychological treatments and assessments using Delphi methodology. A panel of 101 experts participated in a 2-stage survey, reporting familiarity with 59 treatments and 30 assessment techniques and rating these on a continuum from not at all discredited to certainly discredited."doi:10.1037/0735-7028.37.5.515

Snowded said that the reliability of Witkowsi was not a question. Think again. You cannot have it both ways. Can you trust a journal that does not even use turn-it-in to check for plagiarism? I ran it through and it had a huge plagiarism count - copy and pasting text from web sites and other papers rather than quoting, paraphrasing or synthesizing. --122.x.x.x (talk) 23:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Raise it with the journal, its not our place to do this sort of investigative work --Snowded ^TALK 06:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

If we ignore the blatant plagiarism, we can see that both the author and a third party (Witkowsjki) use the term sought to describe their attempts at ascertaining consensus. The authors warn us in the article that any results need to be taken "carefully and humbly". In this context "sought" is appropriate and is not a weasel term. --122.x.x.x (talk) 06:37, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

You are making an accusation of plagiarism and that is your affair, but I caution you against doing it in a public forum. If you have concerns raise them with the author or the journal concerned. Other than that there is no need to use "sought" the conclusions should be taken carefully and humbly, but they are still conclusions. --Snowded ^TALK 10:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Did they make any conclusions specific NLP? --122.x.x.x (talk) 13:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

User122xxx. You have already posted a link to the article [12]. Please stop your disruptive time wasting behaviour. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 04:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I have the full text here. But I want your scientific opinion on what the specific conclusions were made regarding NLP in this paper: Norcross et al., 2006. I can see it there in the results but cannot see it mentioned in the conclusions. Snowded said we need to report conclusions and is the reason I asked for clarification. --122.x.x.x (talk) 06:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Stop your disruptive nonsense. Editor opinion is irrelevant in this the matter. Witkowski reports on Norcross et al 2006. This has been covered before under one of your previous non-denied incarnations. You already know this. You appear to be persistently wasting editor effort deliberately in this matter. Lam Kin Keung (talk) 07:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Stop trying to divert the discussion into accusations of sock-puppetry - I'm not failing to deny, I'm just not taking your bait. I'm not interested in Witkowski really. As far as I can tell, the author has no credibility as a scientist. In contrast, Norcross is a notable professor. I'm interested in what you, as a scientist, understand to be the conclusion made by Norcross et al. 2006 specific to NLP. We need to just establish some basic facts here. --122.x.x.x (talk) 12:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussing changes to the article, not the opinions of editors, you have been told this before as LKK says. --Snowded ^TALK 13:14, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not asking for an opinion. I'm asking for the facts. --122.x.x.x (talk) 20:59, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

That may be your opinion --Snowded ^TALK 21:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Please provide a quote from that paper showing the conclusion specific to NLP you speak of. That way we can be sure that it is not just my opinion or yours. --122.x.x.x (talk) 22:09, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

It's laughable that a non-peer reviewed Polish journal with probably plagiarized (but clearly duplicate) is being defended here. Highly dubious is an understatement.--Encyclotadd (talk) 03:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I am very dissapointed tbh.

Closing as warned because Wikipedia is not a forum. ISTB351 (talk) 05:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hello, I am enemesis I have studied NLP and I am very dissapointed at the direction of this article at the moment. I was involved in editting this article about 6 to 7 years ago when we were trying to put together an educational piece. there was one user who sought to demonise the NLP article and had infact used aliases to give more credibility to his plea and have his way. he was subsequently caught and banned from the article. I was happy with it about a year ago when it was educational and there was a small section questioning the validity of NLP, this would be fair, right now the article is tatterred with personal opinion. I feel the article is tainted with personal opinion and should be re written. as it stands it says absolutely nothing of value. I feel if your objective is to be manipulative in the context of the article then you have no business here, your intentions will be considerred impure to me. I have no wish to get involved right now , however if this matter is not corrected I will fight for a fair article by any means necessary. Hello and greetings to all who would like a decent article on the mountain of knowledge that is Wikipedia :D. enemesis — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enemesis (talk • contribs) 00:04, 13 February 2012 (UTC) Please declare which user account you edited under "about 6 to 7 years ago". Otherwise, you may be open to accusations of sock puppetry as yet another spa involved with this page. Unless, you have any specific changes which you would like to make to the article, rather than general complaints about it, this thread is liable to be closed per WP:NOTAFORUM. ISTB351 (talk) 01:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC) JuzzyFett. I am pretty sure was my name and yes sock puppetry was the term used for the offender, he was banned from editting the article. Specific changes would be to make an educational article that articulates what NLP is, Not what other people have said about it. that would be a completely different thread or a smaller piece of the puzzle imo and not of worthy note for the main attraction. in other words this article closes options for the reader as far as true learning is concerned. Upon seeing the article in such dissaray I feel I must begin another account to defend it. accuse me of sock puppetry if you like. this is the truth and you will find no such evidence to support it. also the member involved with the page many years ago also claimed NLP to have lost it's timeliness, such comparisons are completely bizzarre to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enemesis (talk • contribs) 03:29, 13 February 2012 (UTC) Can I ask a question? Is this a thesis or an article? Is it historically correct? is it filled with opinionated third party propaganda that leads to a judgement of the subject matter? Does the text represent the subject it describes? What is the true genesis of NLP? Are the other documents really by the way side and have little relevance to the subject as a whole whilst also having their corner in the article? Who are the people involved and what is their importance? wow thats a few questions really but you get it. again is this a thesis or an article? Enemesis (talk) 05:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

One of the rudest exchanges I've seen on Wikipedia

Closing per WP:NOTAFORUM and Wikipedia:No personal attacks. ISTB351 (talk) 10:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm looking at you, ISTB351; cast your eye on WP:FACTIONS : ... Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion. If another user behaves in an uncivil, uncooperative, or insulting manner, or even tries to harass or intimidate you, this does not give you an excuse to respond in kind. Address only the factual points brought forward, ignoring the inappropriate comments, or disregard that user entirely. If necessary, point out gently that you think the comments might be considered uncivil, and make it clear that you want to move on and focus on the content issue. ... htom (talk) 07:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC) Its not rude to point out that this is not a forum and to ask for full disclosure when someone admits to having edited before under another name. ----Snowded TALK 07:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC) I was merely pointing out to Enemesis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is, by that user's own admission, not a newcomer so cannot be bitten, that WP:SOCK and WP:NOTAFORUM apply. I did so civilly and without being rude. The fact that you are merely quoting policy at length rather than highlighting any specific instance of alleged incivility is telling. It has been made clear time and time again that what should be discussed here is specific changes to the article that are controversial. This is not the place for rambling general discussions about NLP as that user was starting. ISTB351 (talk) 08:29, 13 February 2012 (UTC) What you two see as concise, precise, and efficient by-the-rules interacting I saw as an abrupt rude silencing after a hostile, interrogative question, without the warning your closure references. Your responses to me confirm my opinion of your closure; you are welcome to your opinion of it. htom (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC) If you think there is a behaviour issue then take it to the appropriate forum, with evidence. Otherwise this page is for discussing changes to the article, its not for a general discussion of the subject, or of other editors. ----Snowded TALK 19:05, 13 February 2012 (UTC) By all means, leave on a note of threat and refusal to engage. Says it all, really. Obviously, I can't be responsible for your attitudes. Could you provide - what's the word - diffs for these problematic edits, so I can see what you mean? If others are provoked, it seems to be because they impute to me a set of opinions that I have never indicated I hold, and that I do not in fact hold, but that they find intolerable. It's an interesting conundrum. ISTB351 (talk) 19:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC) Rudeness is frequently in how something is said, rather than what is said. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANeuro-linguistic_programming&action=historysubmit&diff=476595483&oldid=476595289 (Not sure I know how to do diffs correctly.) I felt, and still feel, that that closure was an undeservedly rude response. I haven't gone anywhere, and deny making any threats. Did my complaint about the closure you inserted make you feel threatened? How so? I haven't said I was going to report your behavior. I was aiming at making you feel guilty or ashamed; did I hit, and those feelings, and the consequences if they were reported are what you perceive as a threat? Report yourself, or me, if you want. htom (talk) 21:43, 13 February 2012 (UTC) I am sorry I do not feel I treated this like a forum tbh, the sugestion was made as to the direction for the article by istb351 to which I responded in kind. I don't think he would have minded if he had found what I had to say to be agreeable to his cause. I did not speak of NLP in General istb351 you will have to do better if you are going to miscarry my words in defense of yourself. I was talking about the article and editting. In this case the article seems to be way off track. what I said was a suggestion for editting which I believe to be right. The information I have seen presented has very little to do with the subject in general and has a mass of documentation that that are opinions on NLP and not about NLP itself, Is this the soap box they are talking about in the article you sent me istb315? voicing a view that is yours through an article. This is a part of the article but not the article itself. How else could I say it other than to blatantly point out the obvious? There should be if you like a small body on the validity of NLP and the rest should be about the origins important events, people, the genesis and so forth. I will absolutely refuse to go searching for documentations that prove the contrary to the subscribed documents of opinions as this is a tedious task and you will end up writing an article that has a for and against sort of style, like a debate and the intention will be unclear to the audience. We really should know what the structure of the article should be. It was fine the last time I checked it about six months to a year ago. this new version is anti NLP. and excludes learning from the reader. It says to me as an objective reader in total. in plain big red capital letters "STAY AWAY FROM NLP. it is not good for YOU all the professionals say so"(Of which not all of them are doing that surely?). Now I know this is not right. This is opinion which seeks to manipulate the reader into not following the subject up any further and to create disinterest and probably even gossip if the subject arises. It also purports to vandalism of the article even if they are using their rights within the confines of Wikipedian rules and regulations. What happened six or seven years ago is a fill in for the people involved here that do not know and I think it is relevant to what is happening now. All the writers points in the article from back then are the same as what has been described now. Completely the same. He was also totally uncompromising and ruthless in his approach to getting his way and making unscrupulous edits. I do not believe this is treating the talk like a forum. I have come to you with new information that you should deem as important. This article has been under threat previously. We had a similar threat and if you have saved past posts in talk regarding conflict with this article you would see that it is true. I think it is relevant to what is happening now. I feel I cannot proceed into something that was also back then seemingly a futile task and also blatantly obvious to everyone else accept for the editor involved and his sock puppets( although I'm sure he knew what he was doing). We will need some executive decisions or someone to concede all their wishes for the article and only use a few to balance it out and give his/her words their proper tribute and decide what the most objective and educational format should be, only then can we move forward with knowing what to write. This will require fair thought in respect to the subject matter and the reader . I find the article to be important and of value on Wikipedia there are over 500 thousand students who have studied NLP and a lot of them practice it world wide. They will not feel the article respects the field and will feel that NLP is highly misrepresented on Wikipedia of which with its current prevalence the article definitely deserves its place. On any other site I would not be bothered so much, However this is Wikipedia and it reaches millions of readers all over the world every day. Each subject must be treated fairly with respect to the information, the people involved, and the audience . Without a shared outcome there will be NO outcome. Is this not all about editing direction? If this is not the place to say it then where else could I point out the blatantly obvious? Tell me and I will go there too. Thank you. And yes istb351 I did find u to be rude on our first encounter. you were quite curt and unwelcoming. also the page you sent me said something about soap boxes. I am pretty sure the article was pertaining to Wikipedia articles and not talk unless there is something I have missed... A couple of questions for snowded if I may: Hello snowded, My name is enemesis and I would like to ask... Should this article rather be called "The efficacies of Neuro Linguitic Programming" rather than "Neuro Linguistic Programming" as a more apt title that describes the nature of the article? It could be linked as a follow up document at the bottom of the NLP page as it is done with so many other wikipedia pieces. It could also possibly end the dispute amongst the editors here. @ Ottersmith: Could you please direct me to a place I can talk about the content of the article if this is not the place to do it as my comments seem to be offending people. However I must say that the article offends me and probably a lot of other people who would like the subject fairly represented. Thank you for your time. :) Those of you who would like a fairer article is there somewhere to commune other than here to discuss. This also could be considered as my introduction. Hello everyone I'm enemesis, good to be back. :) I am a writer, I have studied at two universities one in theatre and the other for screenwriting. I have written in many different tones to a pretty good effect (I can only hope) on many documents short stories, stage plays, letters, essays. :) I also hope that I can help here too :) regards to all. Enemesis (talk) 13:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC) This is the place to discuss improvements to the article. Doing so elsewhere will probably get you accused of other Wikipedia sins. Sorry you've had such a reintroduction to Wikipedia; this has become one of the most contentious articles we have. htom (talk) 00:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC) In answer to the one question you ask Ememesis, No I don't. Otherwise please read the advise on your page, this is not a soapbox and you post above has little to do with the article. Please also try and remember your previous user name. The one you give above does not appear a valid one. A link would be appreciated and ideally you should link on your talk page so that there is no question of sock puppetry. This is especially important as you are (in indirect language) repeating the accusations against other editors promoted on what appear to the NLP sites set up to organise meat puppets, and there are other stylistic commonalities. So a little honesty and recall please or you will just get swept up in a list of Especially as you are (in indirect language) repeating the accusations against other editors promoted on what appear to the NLP sites set up to organise meat puppets, and there are other stylistic commonalities. So a little honesty and recall please or you will simply get swept up with a lost of SPA accounts when the mean puppetry report goes to ANI----Snowded TALK 06:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC) Snowded what a trooper you are. I do not remember my account details other than juzzyfett. I think I have you worried right now. very worried. admins can check my ip and see it is nowhere in the vicinity of other editors. they can also try tracing it, it is only two suburbs away from when I last spoke here. I have I should say just been reading some stuff to get up to speed on the players in this entanglement. and yes headlydown was the culprit back then. I will try and find my lost account. Yes, I will always and forever speak the truth on this matter and theb people involved and more importantly I will prove that Headlydown is back. have a nice day sir. — Preceding Enemesis (talk) 09:36, 15 February 2012 (UTC) According to Devilly,[15] NLP is no longer as prevalent as it was in the 1970s and 1980s. Criticisms go beyond the lack of empirical evidence for effectiveness; critics say that NLP exhibits pseudoscientific characteristics. Who editted this into the article? Given the claims made by proponents of NLP, this adds little to the credibility debate and would produce reports concerning the experience from the perspective of the individual rather than confirmation of the claimed efficacy. and this one? Enemesis (talk) 09:36, 15 February 2012 (UTC) Its amazing how many new SPA accounts here can't remember their previous names and then start up on the old themes. Ah well, another one .. Please use the talk page for proposals for changes to the article not for general discussion of the subject. If you carry on the material will be collapsed or deleted. ----Snowded TALK 09:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC) You fail to answer any of my my questions with any great depth snowded. Why? This theme is current people already think you and Lim are a fraud. funny that. Empirical was what Headly argued back them and efficacy which to me seemed an odd descriptive word to use although quite proudly used by headly at the time is used again and also quite proudly. If you wish to know what I would change specifically, it would be all of it. I could write an essay on what the problems are which could be quite a tedious task in itself however that would be by the way side of what the article should be. I can feel the cops the fbi and the cia surrounding headly right now hes panicking and in his panic he has short moments of grief, "why was I so bold?" he asks himself. Why does he even try anymore? is what I ask myself. It will be over soon. And I will ask admins to let no-one follow Headly's work if wisdom will persist. this article will be protected. You got that snowded and Lim!?! Now who editted those passages into the article? Enemesis (talk) 10:10, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

istb351, would it be fair to rollback the article?

Closing per WP:NOTAFORUM. ISTB351 (talk) 01:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Hello istb351, can I please ask? Would it be more appropriate to revert the article to a time before this dispute? There are a couple of editors who are in contention as to their identity on wikipedia. As the evidence mounts against these editors I find it hard to give them the reward of editorial priviledges of displaying a version of NLP that is similar in content to headlydowns version so many years ago. Headlydown has lost his right to edit wikipedia as you know and should not be rewarded in any reincarnation or suspected reincarnation. This would only give him every encouragement to continue as thinking he will have some success at doing it. Also I would like to add that any of Headly's edits should be recorded to identify recurring themes research writing style etc if you are not already doing this so that a reincarnation is easy to identify. I have I think rememberred my correct user name. If you could direct me on how to find it then I will. Juzzyfet was an old nick and one that I had used years ago on other sites, however I think this one will be correct and identify me from that time. I will not display it here as it has personal identifying information. instead I will ask FT2 to verify it. regards. Enemesis (talk) 03:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC) The only grounds for reverting the article to an earlier version would be if that earlier version better reflected the sources. As you have failed to indicate (a) an earlier version that the article should be restored to, or (b) why that version better reflects the sources than the current version, there are no grounds for reversion at the present time. If you believe that specific content does not reflect the sources, then post it here. These general requests will do you no good at all. As for the HeadleyDown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) issue, unless you are prepared to submit an ANI/SPI report on the matter, I would advise that you strikeout your comments above. It is simply not acceptable, given WP:AGF & WP:NPA to make insinuations or accusations of sockpuppetry without supporting material, especially when these accusations have been made by socks and SPAs before and have been thus far found to be groundless. In any case, given the spam recently posted at my talk page, I was under the impression that you believed that I was a sock or meat puppet of Snowded (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). As for your previous identity, it seems appropriate to wait until the administrator that you have contacted has made their views known. This thread is liable to be closed if you continue to fail to abide by WP:NOTAFORUM and the aforementioned policies. ISTB351 (talk) 04:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC) in regards to a) The predominant sources are anti NLP making a biased article I have recently come in if you could direct me then I could find previous edits as examples. In regards to b)I believe from the posts I have left before that it is quite clear that this article expresses the problems with NLP and does not have enough historical value to repressent the subject resepctively. I will not comment on headleydown for now, I will take your advice and upon me being a witness at that time I would hope that it would hold some weight. Enemesis (talk) 02:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC) .

Lawsuit Paragraph

ISTB351, Regarding your recent revision:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=476983224&oldid=474420508

I agree the existing sources are not adequate. Perhaps the solution is adding references rather than removing the copy.

My reason for my feeling this way is based on the following:

The Independent, mentions the lawsuit. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/messing-with-your-head-does-the-man-behind-neurolinguistic-programming-want-to-change-your-life-ndash-or-control-your-mind-1774383.html?action=Popup

A university professor writes about the lawsuit here. http://www.neurosemantics.com/nlp/the-history-of-nlp/the-lawsuit-that-almost-killed-nlp

The Skeptic Dictionary even covers it. http://www.skepdic.com/neurolin.html

None of these are perfect sources. But they're an indication that the perfect sources are out there-- for example the court documents themselves.--Encyclotadd (talk) 10:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no objection at all to the inclusion of the material, and even if I did it wouldn't matter. What counts is whether there are third party reliable verifiable sources that indicate its notability. Given the sensitivity of legal matters in relation to BLP issues, we have to be even more vigilant than usual. The Independent article above mentions the lawsuit in passing, the The International Society Neuro-Semantics is not a reliable source on this matter, and the Skeptic Dictionary reference is unclear and hardly appears reliable under the circumstances. If reliable sources are found, the material can go back in, but under the circumstances as you accept "[n]one of these are perfect sources". Court documents would be primary sources and so would not be "perfect sources" as you imply. ISTB351 (talk) 11:23, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess I'm persuaded by that argument and particularly your assessment of the Skeptic Dictionary as unreliable here. I would just add that, if it fails the standard of reliability here, then you may want to consider whether the Skeptic's Dictionary fails the standard of reliability of "Scientific Criticism," which it's held out as in the NLP article itself. But good luck removing it. --Encyclotadd (talk) 10:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a third party source (it was a review of Lisa Wake's book) that sums up the lawsuit and malaise quite well in one paragraph, "Unfortunately Bandler and Grinder fell out and there was a lawsuit that was eventually resolved in 2001 with both agreeing to be recognized as co-founders of NLP. This dispute resulted in the establishment of a number of bodies to represent NLP and, in addition, various approaches have been developed and numerous strategies have been incorporated within NLP. The result of all of this trauma and change has been that NLP has grown in many directions without a clear and universally recognized unifying content. The end result has been a “discipline” which has no clear agreed definition of purpose and some external commentators question its credibility and evidence of success."(Wilson 2011 p.1) If you want to use it, the citation is: John P. Wilson, (2011) "NLP: Principles in Practice", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 43 Iss: 2. --122.x.x.x (talk) 12:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

reliable sources and basic structure for article revision

I'm working on a revision based on current reliable sources, see User:122.x.x.x/NLP_reliable_sources. I'm starting with just a bare bones structure. If anyone else is keen to help let me know. I will be starting with a search of the literature for "Bandler+Grinder" OR "NLP" OR "Neuro-linguistic programming" OR "Neurolinguistic programming". I will use google scholar, psychinfo, pubmed and proquest. Any suggestions? --122.x.x.x (talk) 00:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that you focus on improving individual sections rather than attempting a whole scale rewrite from scratch. Those on current practice etc. are weak and provided you can avoid promotion could easily be improved. Attempting to rewrite the whole thing to remove criticism, per your edit waring over four persona is unlikely to gain consensus. ----Snowded ^TALK 05:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

When you said "current practice etc" - are you referring to the service that NLP practitioners provide in terms of consulting coaching, and/or psychotherapy, or as a practical communications model? Or both? What other areas do you think are lacking in the current article? I just want to add the Emerald database which has a business focus to the list of databases I mentioned above. --122.108.140.210 (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Side note: I'm still working on the outline here: User:122.x.x.x/NLP_reliable_sources. I'd really appreciate your help with creating headings to cover the main topics as per the reliable sources. --122.x.x.x (talk) 14:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

consultancy method in business

The use as a consultancy method in business, although we need proper references. That has always been weak, less sure that there are any other major gaps ----Snowded ^TALK 06:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunaetly, there are not many proper references if you mean high quality peer-reviewed papers and there is no formal NLP-oriented "consultancy method in business". There are some books from academic press like FT Prentice Hall. I'll let you comment on "Open University Press" as a publisher. Those books give hints to how NLP is used as a consultancy method.

Most of the papers related to NLP indexed by business databases like Emerald are not very good quality. There are a number of business oriented papers (e.g. Yemm, 2006; Dowlen, 1996) that summarize its methods emphasizing outcome-oriented thinking with sensory acuity, flexibility in behavior and communication, rapport, and state management. There are also a low quality case studies and other mainly promotional pieces.

• Graham Yemm, (2006) "Can NLP help or harm your business?", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 38 Iss: 1, pp.12 - 17
• Ashley Dowlen, (1996) "NLP - help or hype? Investigating the uses of neuro-linguistic programming in management learning", Career Development International, Vol. 1 Iss: 1, pp.27 - 34 doi:10.1108/13620439610111408

I think Tosey and Mathison (2010) are close to the mark when they say that, "[NLP] is used in organizational contexts as a method of executive coaching (Linder-Pelz and Hall, 2007; Hayes, 2006); and its techniques and frameworks have a wide variety of applications in business (Knight, 2002) and management development (Molden, 2001)." doi:10.1108/17465641011042035

• Molden, D. (2001), NLP Business Masterclass, FT Prentice Hall, London.
• Knight, S. (2002), NLP at Work: The Difference that Makes a Difference in Business, Nicholas Brealey, London.
• Hayes, P. (2006), NLP Coaching, Open University Press, Maidenhead.
• Linder-Pelz, S., Hall, L.M. (2007), "The theoretical roots of NLP-based coaching", The Coaching Psychologist, 3, 1, pp.12-17.

--122.x.x.x (talk) 12:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Here are a few more case studies and viewpoint articles related to the method used in business consulting:

• Case study: Ian Lavan, (2002) "NLP in business – or more than a trip to the zoo", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 34 Iss: 5, pp.182 - 187
• Case study: Lisa Wake, (2011) "Applying NLP tools and techniques in an FMCG environment", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 43 Iss: 2, pp.121 - 125doi:10.1108/00197851111108953
• Viewpoint: Lisa Wake, (2011) "Neurolinguistic programming: does it have a role in supporting learning or OD interventions?", Development and Learning in Organizations, Vol. 25 Iss: 1, pp.19 - 21
• Case study: Lindsey Agness, (2011) "Changing the rules of the game", Strategic HR Review, Vol. 10 Iss: 5, pp.11 - 16
• Sara Nolan (2011) says that "In “Changing the rules of the game”, Lindsey Agness proposes that successful change can be achieved by identifying and changing the unconscious rules within an organization’s culture...She draws on NLP to identify ways of breaking down those rules so that they become identifiable and therefore manageable and pliable, helping culture shifts to be achieved in a short space of time. For example, the NLP concept of pattern breaks – abrupt interruptions that break a habit or state – can be applied in business as a way of shaking up the status quo..." - Sara Nolan, (2011) "Change management", Strategic HR Review, Vol. 10 Iss: 5, pp. -

--122.x.x.x (talk) 13:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure why you are providing these lists - they exist outside of any context. The journals are OK in the main, but it depends what you are using them to support. Please (and you have been asked this many many times before) proposed specific amendments with sources then other editors can engage. If you want to have a general discussion area use a sandbox. I would add that some of the quotes here appear to be specific cases, you really need a third party review to make a general statement about use without falling foul of WP:OR or WP:SYNTH ----Snowded ^TALK 20:23, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You just stated that the coverage on the use of NLP as a consulting method was lacking and that we need proper sources. WP:OR states:"Best practice is to research the most reliable sources on the topic and summarize what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly." And WP:SYNTH states that: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." Please elaborate on this statement: "you really need a third party review to make a general statement about use". --122.x.x.x (talk) 23:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You have been editing on wikipedia for many years, you know the principles and you have stated them. What you need to do is to make a sourced proposal for comment while avoiding synthesis. The means that an article which reviews the cases is going to be better than trying to string something together from cases. The time I have for this article is going on preparing the meat puppetry/disruptive editing case for ANI as we need a long term fix. Once that is out of the way I'll happily take on looking at some content issues. Otherwise I am happy to comment if another editor makes proposals for changes, but I am not going to waste any more time on general discussions. ----Snowded ^TALK 23:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Snowded, you ducked the question. When you said, "You really need a third party review to make a general statement about use," what do you mean by "third party review?" Third party review of what exactly? Is that a requirement for statements about use in all articles? It seems like a completely unrealistic request to be making of another Editor and obfuscating as a result.--Encyclotadd (talk) 12:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've spend far too much time trying to explain wikipedia process to you, despite the various insults and accusations. You have now been around here long enough that you can look it up in WP:RS for yourself . About 90% of your talk page edits are either accusations or statements of your opinion. I suggest a brief sabbatical on the five pillars before you sound off again. ----Snowded ^TALK 14:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Snowded was referring to statements that directly state or imply academic consensus. I think Snowded is trying to warn against "original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material" which is related to academic consensusWP:RS/AC. So we should use third party reviews to make general statements about academic consensus. But the key to reliable sources is: "Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both."[Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources] So there is no reason why we cannot use the abovementioned case studies and viewpoint articles related to NLP in business (as indexed by Emerald) if they have undergone reliable publication process by Industrial and Commercial Training, Development and Learning in Organizations, or Strategic HR Review. --122.x.x.x (talk) 22:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The claims made for use in business are so weak I'm not sure it's even needed to include sources. Aside from that, I concur with 122. --Mindjuicer (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)