Talk:Sexual violence in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

avoiding false balance

On one hand we have reports and evidence of mass rapes, gang rapes, brutality and torture directed at civilians. On the other hand we have ... a "threat" made against one Russian soldier. It is absolutely absurd to pretend that these are the same. Volunteer Marek 19:15, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

This is neither "false balance" nor "pretending" that different things "are the same".

On the contrary, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) and the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU) are a reliable source that is about the most neutral available for this topic. This article is not uniquely about war crimes, it's about sexual violence. We cannot censor WP:RSd issues of sexual violence in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine in an article specifically on the topic sexual violence in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. There are four paragraphs in the 26 March 2022 OHCHR report; we should summarise all four of those paragraphs, in appropriate sections. Boud (talk) 20:06, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, OHCHR is indeed a reliable source and yes, there are four paragraphs on this topic in the (very lengthy) report but this is just one sentence which only says "possibly could also amount to". The part on taping people to poles is not even in the section on sexual violence! This is just trying to squeeze out some "other side does it too" nonsense out of a source which is simply not there. This is a clear cut case of WP:UNDUE. Volunteer Marek 21:36, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

In this edit, I have restored several of these censored items, though I left the one "threat to castrate" incident out of the lead. Feel free to add other references, e.g. apparently the person involved apologised.

HRMMU is clearly correct to state that partially or completely undressing people and beating them publicly (or privately) is a human rights violation that is likely to count as sexual violence.

In any case, deliberately ignoring what OHCHR/HRMMU see as an overview of sexual violence in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine would constitute original research. Boud (talk) 20:29, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

A single sentence which says "may be" out of a lengthy report is not enough to put this in, creating false impression that both sides are just as bad. Find more substantive discussion in reliable sources. Volunteer Marek 21:36, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

This revert edit summary says no, this is a misrepresentation of a source - it says "may" and on top of that this is a single sentence out of a very long report which clearly means it's WP:CHERRY picked.

No. Out of a 10-page report, there is one only section, IV.D, on page 8, that gives an overview of D. Conflict-related sexual violence. One of the four points (42, 43, 44, 45) is point 45, which refers back implicitly (on the reasonable assumption that the reader understands English and has read through the report consecutively) to point 41, on the same page. This is not cherry-picking a single sentence out of a long report, it is choosing one out of four points made on the topic of this article. The other two points are included in the current version of the article; and the third point (the threat of castration, para 44) was included in the initial version of the article. Overall, all four paragraphs were covered. This is not cherry-picking.

This revert edit summary says likewise it doesn't even put the blame on Ukrainian Territorial Defense and only says it "may be" sexual violence. This is just false equivocation and UNDUE trying to put it on same level as mass rapes and removes a summary of the OHCHR's 26 March 2022 report point 41, which was referred to by point 45, which is one out of four points on sexual violence in the invasion. The Ukrainian Territorial Defence is explicitly blamed: HRMMU has received credible allegations of more than 45 such cases of torture and ill-treatment by civilians, police officers and members of the territorial defence. In most cases, perpetrators allegedly duct-taped individuals to electricity poles or trees, partially or fully stripped them, beat them, ... persons stripped of clothing ... Some of this conduct may also amount to conflict related sexual violence. (bold added) True that OHCHR says "may also amount". It also is very cautious in warning that it has not been able to verify any allegations of CRSV by Russian forces according to OHCHR standards; if we insist on using "may" to exclude the topic of Ukrainian Territorial Forces sexually abusing Ukrainians in "most" of 45 cases, then we should equally exclude the whole section on allegations of CRSV by Russian forces. In other words, OHCHR states clearly that Russian forces do not have a monopoly on using sexual violence in the invasion.

To avoid an edit war, I suggest that other people either restore the section and the sentence in the lead, or discuss whether it is acceptable to carry out original research in rejecting the four-paragraph summary, section IV.D. (42 + 43 + 44 + 45), of the 26 March 2022 OHCHR report, and if it is acceptable to reject paragraph 41 that is referred to by paragraph 45. @Ilenart626: ping since you've been editing on this topic on the main war crimes page. Boud (talk) 22:34, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@Boud and @Volunteer Marek, I have used the lead section of this article for a proposed replacement of the Sexual Violence section of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, refer Talk page discussion - Edit 2 of Sexual violence section. Suggest we finalise the War crimes- Sexual violence discussion first, as that consensus may provide guidence to this issue, plus it may lead to details being transferred from the War crimes article to this article Ilenart626 (talk) 04:36, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Sources for a suggested expansion of scope to start with 2014 invasion

Michael Z suggested extending the scope to start with the 2014 Russian invasion. I don't see any arguments against, except that we need some sources and some editors to summarise key content and also, preferably, keep an eye out for subtle vandalism. For comparison (in terms of editing histories), Humanitarian situation during the war in Donbas got stuck mostly at 2014+2015; nobody has been motivated/had the time to add the 2016-2021 material there; and an attribution of "most" of the lawlessness and human rights violations, in the second sentence of the lead, to Ukrainian forces, mismatching the source, remained in place for three years (2019-2022) before it was fixed. This is not an argument against extension, it's just a comment that people concerned enough about the content should add the article to their watchlist, and that long-term editing attention is not guaranteed.

Here are some references to build up until an extension looks like it has enough sources:

• OHCHR 2017
• refs in Izolyatsia prison (several in Russian)
  • https://www.unian.info/war/10753155-dpr-secret-prisons-employ-torture-experts-not-random-people-ex-captives.html "Our interlocutors note that their cellmates in Izoliatsia, young women, were being regularly raped. "
  • OHCHR report 16 November 2019 to 15 February 2020 = ... ?

In practical terms, my suggestion would be start with 2014-2021 as a "background" section, and if/when it's substantial enough, check again if anyone has any objections, and if there are no objections, then redefine the lead/title/scope to cover the full period since 2014. That would allow for working on this incrementally if/when people have time. Boud (talk) 15:28, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support. —Michael Z. 15:46, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support, in general, but may not have much bandwidth to contribute. I do however agree that the condition described above is a frequent problem in articles about the war in Ukraine. I tend to agree with the general proposition that there has been war in Ukraine since 2014. HTH. Elinruby (talk) 05:00, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Men and boys among alleged victims

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/03/men-and-boys-among-alleged-victims-by-russian-soldiers-in-ukraine Xx236 (talk) 12:08, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-official-russians-raped-11-year-old-boy-1696549 Xx236 (talk) 12:09, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Raping new moms

https://www.thedailybeast.com/wagner-group-mercenaries-accused-of-raping-new-moms-on-maternity-ward-in-central-african-republic?source=twitter&via=desktop Xx236 (talk) 06:04, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Wrong country. Curbon7 (talk) 17:48, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Wrong country, the same government.Xx236 (talk) 06:17, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes but doesn't matter for this particular article, as this is relating to Ukraine, not the CAR. Could be something valid to add to the Wagner Group's article, however. Curbon7 (talk) 06:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Double penalisation of women victims of sexual violence in the Russian invasion

This revert removes notable information for reasons that look rather like WP:OR. The Quint considers Ukrainian women's risks in Poland, after having been raped in Ukraine, and the risks of their helpers in Poland, to be notable. A Wikipedian considers them to be un-notable based on his/her judgment of the practical risks that differs from the judgment of The Quint. Uninvolved editors may wish to get involved. Boud (talk) 17:11, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

German source

https://geschichtedergegenwart.ch/vergewaltigung-als-kriegswaffe-einige-ueberlegungen-zu-sexueller-gewalt-im-krieg-in-der-ukraine/ Xx236 (talk) 06:31, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Denisova

I think we have a big problem in this article. Most of the reports come from Denisova, who was also taken out because of her unverifiable absurd reports of rape of all kinds.[1] I think we need to take this horror-fantasy touch out of the article.--Mhorg (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh no, a dismissal of an official does not invalidate any his/her statements made in their official capacity. Of course a specific claim can be false, but this must be established by other RS (like fact checkers, etc.). Consider Veracity of statements by Donald Trump as an example. So far I did not see a single specific statement or number by Denisova be disproved in RS. If you know such RS, please cite them here. However, one can not summarily dismiss and remove from WP (that is what you do) all statements even by Donald Trump just because that was a statement by Donald Trump. My very best wishes (talk) 14:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

These articles are entirely built on Denisova's lies (they are also called that, of things that are unsubstantiated allegations), it is extremely wrong to maintain them in this way. In that case, we must write under each statement that she was accused of lying by reporting on rape cases without bringing evidence. That would be big trouble. Alternatively, we would be promoting disinformation in the Encyclopaedia. Mhorg (talk) 15:33, 16 June 2022 (UTC)