Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Argument against Christianity

I know that a lot of believers coming from the LDS movement believe themselves to be Christian, but outsiders looking don't agree with that concept. It would be similar to saying that Muslims and Christians are Jewish simply because both groups find the Torah as a sacred text. However, both groups have totally different additions that make them distinctively no longer Jewish, New Testament (Greek Testament) with the Christians and the Q'uran with the Muslims. Likewise, Mormonism has an additional sacred text in the Book of Mormon that distinctively branches out from Christianity with varying beliefs sufficient enough to no longer be labeled as Christian.

Take into further account that the group believes in multiple gods, Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers, and that Jesus is not God having become man, then it is clear that there is enough of a difference for it to be considered something different than the religion that it was inspired by. --GK 15:48, 21 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gk digital defener (talk • contribs)

Please see the definition of 'Christian': "a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ." The number of texts (additional or otherwise) believed to be holy writ is irrelevant. All other points you mention are also irrelevant. The only criteria is whether the individual, or group in this case, believes Jesus to be the Christ. The Mormons do, and, ergo, are Christians. Besides, 'cult' is defined as: "followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices", something that could be applied to pretty much any group you can think of. Useight (talk) 20:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

This topic of discussion is not new. Please see archive 14 for most of my thoughts on the issue, and plenty of discussion and links to previous discussions. In a nutshell, I feel that using "restorationist Christian" solves all problems here. ...but what do you think? ~BFizz 21:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Although a few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity. Christianity is unlike the term Judaism, because Christians themselves make no claim to Judah, and don't care whether they are identified with the Biblical Hebrews. Mormons, on the other hand, make a claim to Jesus, and by Mormons' own terms, they are Christian. Nobody can dispute that Mormonism began squarely within the discourses of traditional American Christianity. You could say that by 1844, Mormonism evolved into something a step beyond traditional Christianity, but there's not much within Mormonism that couldn't be found somewhere within the extremely diverse and wildly-experimental early Christian era. COGDEN 22:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

To say that only a "few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity." is a vast misrepresentation. The World Council of Churches specifically recognizes the LDS faith as non-Christian. This represents a vast majority of all churches everywhere in the world including Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.3.199.238 (talk) 17:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: World Council of Churches stance - do you have a source for the WCC's stance on the issue? The one reference I could find from them seems to indicate that they consider the LDS to be a Christian Church (see [1], pg 37 where the LDS is listed as an example of "Other Christian Churches"). --FyzixFighter (talk) 14:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ#cite_note-41 The World Council of Churches does not recognise the Mormon movements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 13:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No major Christian denomination considers Mormons to be Christian (The Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Curches, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Churches, etc.), and the definition of Christianity is not so simple as to be merely a belief in Jesus Christ; Jews, Muslims, and most Atheists believe in Jesus Christ, the question is what exactly do they believe he was and what precisely was his relationship to the one and only sole god, identified by the Jews as Yaweh and the Muslims as Allah. All Christian denominations have essentially the same belief as expressed in the Nicene Creed, and though some fringe groups do not recognise the text itself as authoritative, they all agree with the basic principles; Mormons, Jews, Muslims and Atheists have a different belief.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp Factsareinconvenient (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

See also "Nonrecognition of respective rites" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity - While this article is poorly written and seems in many places to imply a connection between Mormonism inside Christianity, the position of Christians in regard to Mormon baptism makes clear that they do not accept Mormonism as Christian. Review the citations (which is always good advice). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 14:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism should not be in the Christianity portal. That is not to say it is anything less, but it is simply not Christian. The definition of Christianity is rigid: One God. One Son who is also the final prophet. (Any future prophets are identified with the Beast and the Apocalypse if they are considered at all.) All Christian denominations accept the Apostles Creed and all major ones accept the Nicene. Those who don't fully accept the Nicene, can be identified as fringe; their identity as Christian is logically debatable, but Mormons are as clearly out of the fold as Muslims are. (I can call myself a black muslim and mean it, but being in reality an atheist, any self identification of myself as a black muslim does not make me one.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 12:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

You speak as if you know what you are talking about. Welcome to this poor article. New minds are always helpful. You seem to have a definition of being a Christian that is rather rigid. In fact, it is so rigid that not one of the original Apostles could be classified as Christian; I would say that is more than rigid. By chance do you have a definition for being a follower of Jesus or a Christian that can be supported by the Bible? If so, let's use it instead of anything created by man 325 years after Jesus.

You are correct, Latter-day Saints don't recognize any of the baptisms performed by other churches or denominations. To perform a baptism in the eyes of God, one needs his authority. LDS don't believe proper authority exists outside of their Church. LDS believe that Apostolic Succession is a creation of man used to justify the workings of a church created by the non-Christian, Constantine. In the Protestant world, the priesthood of the believer is also a creation of man used to justify their lack of authority.

Let's look at the Apostles' Creed and determine if LDS believe in the concepts it presents:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. LDS would agree with this with one caveat - Jesus did the creating by the direction of the Father.

2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. LDS believe this completely.

3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. LDS believe this completely.

4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. LDS believe this completely.

5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. LDS believe this completely.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. LDS believe this completely.

7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. LDS believe this completely.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, LDS believe this completely.

9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, LDS do NOT believe in the Catholic church, but can agree that there is only holy, true church found in the LDS Church.

10. the forgiveness of sins, LDS believe this completely.

11. the resurrection of the body, LDS believe this completely.

12. and life everlasting. LDS believe this completely.

No Muslim can admit these things. I do find it odd how many "critics" use this type of approach (to equate Islam with Mormonism - it demonstrates a remarkable ignorance of both Islam and the LDS Church! If anyone does admit these things, then I would say they are Christian.

No before you go and try to create an argument about the doctrine of the Trinity, please review the Catholic Encyclopedia which will tell you that the Trinity, as a doctrine, was created several hundred years after Jesus. It was not a part of Christ's ministry, Jesus did not demand that his followers understand, believe, or teach this doctrine. The question then becomees, who was the first one that required this specific belief and why? I will leave that to you to study and determine. Please return and tell me what you find.

The problem with facts is that they really are inconvenient. They shock the ignorant and enlighten the humble. -^StormRider 14:59, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Your argument is severely impaired as it seems to me most of those who seek to define mormonism as Christianity do so without an understanding of what Christianity is. Firstly, LDS' do not support many of the principles of the Apostles Creed as is stated above. (Analysis of LDS 'acceptance' of the Nicene Creed would be more useful and make LDS' divergence from Christianity more apparent.) Most fundamentally, Mormons do not believe in one and only one God and creator, and one and only one divine son, born of a virgin. (Satan as blood brother, God's previous corporeal existence, Christ the creator, the mormon opportunity to become a god and other gods (polytheism), and future revelation (the book of mormon) are all impossible contradictions to definition as 'christian'. (The caveat stated above alone is enough to render Mormonism no longer Christian.) Furthermore, the bible is unnecessary and of little use to the definition. Like other religions, the entirety of the religion is not contained explicitly in the primary document, however, the fundamental documents like the nicene creed are well established as being based upon the primary source (the Bible). These arguments are too complicated for this section and so established that to even question them reveals that mormonism is not 'christian'. Christians existed for nearly two thousand years under a broadly united definition and though they had many doctrinal disagreements, all of them agreed to a set of principles that Mormons do not believe. Christians defined themselves long before mormonism was invented. Mormons do not have the right or ability to change the definition of others to include themselves. As far as Christians are concerned, Mormons do not even worship the same god that they, jews and muslims do. Also, you do not understand the definition of 'catholic' (with a small c). The word refers to the ancient and universal church and does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church directly; it did not identify itself as such in the second century. (And it doesn't matter when the idea of a trinity was 'created'; the fact is it is a defining characteristic of being 'christian' and was recognised as such for a thousand years before mormonism. It's part of the definition, whether non-scholars are able to 'read' it in the bible or not.)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

...and actually, Muslims do believe many of the principles: God the creator (only one), resurrection of the body, forgiveness of sins, life everlasting...~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

This argument is truly NULL and void. Please see the Webster's dictionary, an universally accepted dictionary for the English language. It states "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ". Mormons confess a belief in Christ.. End of Argument.Wearingaredhat (talk) 07:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Webster’s Dictionary is manifestly not a citable source for the provision of an accurate definition of Christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster perhaps has an infinitesimal amount of weight, but no dictionary would be referenced in even the most faintly academically inclined discussion.

Clarification

Though the topic of whether or not the LDS religion should be affiliated with orthodox, historical Christianity has been discussed, I would like to see clarification in this article. Though the LDS religion did, indeed, spring out of the mish-mash of restorationist movements in the 19th century, it is theologically and practically incorrect to identify the LDS religion with Christian faith. The two could not be more dissimilar, despite making claims on Christ. Also, since many non-denominational churches today, which are inside the pale of historic faith, trace themselves back to restorationist movements, lumping the LDS religion in with them is confusing.

Thus, I would simply suggest that a paragraph or even a couple of sentences be inserted into the beginning of the article, detailing that, while the LDS religion has Jesus as a central figure, he is not the figure of historical Christianity, thereby making the LDS religion something altogether different.

P.S. - I write as someone who has close family members intimately entwined with the LDS religion. This is not a personal attack, but simply an appeal to theological, historical and practical integrity. - Marie

So go ahead and find some reliable sources which would support sentences to that effect and figure out how to work it in to this article or Mormonism and Christianity. VernoWhitney (talk) 00:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

According to the first line of Restorationism (Christian primitivism), "In Christianity, restorationism (or Christian primitivism) is the belief that a purer form of Christianity has been restored using the early church as a model." Churches like the LDS Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses fit this description quite well. For this article's introductory paragraphs I see no further need to clarify "restorationist Christian denomination" beyond perhaps pointing the reader to Mormonism and Christianity, which makes the church's differences from orthodox Christianity quite clear.

I respectfully disagree with the statement that "it is theologically and practically incorrect to identify the LDS religion with Christian faith. The two could not be more dissimilar". While beliefs regarding the particulars vary, as they do with any Christian faith, the LDS Church believes in salvation through Christ, resurrection (and not reincarnation), heaven, angels, spiritual gifts (like prophecy), baptism, the Bible, etc. Theological differences are, in my opinion, not a strong point for disputing the "Christianity" of the LDS Church, since it shares so many fundamental ideas with Christianity. ...comments? ~BFizz 05:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism in no way, shape or form has anything to do with Early Christianity. It may be closer to early Jewish tribalism, but not Christianity. ~PJ

risti Well, Islam also believes in Heaven, angels, and has Christ as a central figure. Should Islam and Christianity be lumped together? I make no comment as to the veracity of LDS belief. I simply say that there is enough difference to distinguish it from historical Christian faith. For instance, a central tenant of Christian belief (as far as Protestantism goes, which tradition the LDS commonly identifies with, to a degree) is that it is the grace of Christ, and Christ alone, which provides salvation. The LDS begin here, yes, but add the requirement that one must keep all the laws, ordinances, etc. to be saved. ("The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79). "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).) In short, historical Christianity is grace-based, the LDS system is works-based. Theologians on both "sides" will agree with this point. Thus, the two faiths are quite different. - Marie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.25.153 (talk) 16:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

In hopes of ending this discussion, this is NOT a forum regarding your views on LDS/Christianity, If you have reliable sources supporting the statements you feel should be added then add them, if not, then feel free to look for them, but unsourced statements that are solely your opinion or otherwise unverifiable arguments may not be placed in this (or any other) article. VernoWhitney (talk) 17:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again, this is not a comment on the veracity of the religion, but rather an attempt to distinguish between LDS and historic Christianity. The original edit I made - that the opening sentences of this article be changed to reflect the reality that this religion arose out of restorationist movements of the 19th century, rather than being another Christian church, which is corroborated throughout history texts - was summarily removed. I shall attempt the edit again, once I have created an exhaustive list of appropriate sources. - Marie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.25.153 (talk) 00:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Need there be any further clarification than "restorationist Christian"? The qualifier "restorationist" clearly demarcates the religion as rejecting "historic Christianity", since the basic concept behind restorationism is that over time the "true" church/doctrine of Christianity has been corrupted. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

How can so many miss such a simple principle? A Christian is anyone who regards Jesus Christ to be the Messiah. Since Mormons do in fact believe this wholly, they can only be classified as Christian. The Islam faith does acknowledge Jesus--but not as the Messiah--so that is how they find themselves outside of Christianity.--124.40.63.122 (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

"[A]nyone who regards Jesus Christ to be the Messiah" is absolutely NOT the definition of Christianity. That is as ridiculous as, ‘every person in America is an American.’ It is simplistic to the point of ridiculousness and but a part of the definition of Christianity. While Wikipedia may not rise to a great level of scholarship, such a definition is unworthy of even this humble resource. The detailed definition of Christianity is found in the Nicene Creed. A more accurate 'simplistic' defintion if you will would be something like, 'Anyone who believes that the one and only one almighty and sole god (called Yahweh by the Jews), who created the totality of existence, begot of the virgin Mary the one and only one son he ever had and ever will and sent him as the messiah to die, rise again and ascend to heaven as it was somehow necessary to do so to save mankind from sin, and who denies the power of any other gods and the existence of any later prophets is a Christian.’ ALL of those elements are essential. Denial on any ONE element makes a religion no longer Christian. (Belief in the trinity is also essential, but it’s a less ‘simplistic’ concept.) Mormons like to claim they have ‘revised’ ‘orthodox’ christianity, but that’s just nonsence marketing speak for following an entirely different religion based somewhat on Christianity; the Muslims do the same thing and they have more central beliefs in common with Christianity than Mormons do, but they aren’t classified as ‘Christian’ (the same one almighty creator god, no other gods, one judgment after death and one and the same heaven). ‘’And for the record, I am an Athiest and think it’s all a load of silly nonsense, but facts are facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 11:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That may be the definition of Nicene Christianity but it is not the only formulation of doctrine within a Christian framework ala the Arian controversy.Ltwin (talk) 17:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The Nicene Creed? You mean the thing MEN developed hundreds of years AFTER Christ walked on Earth? Christ taught that anyone who followed him and lived by HIS teachings would be considered his disciples. Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with the irrelevant Nicene Creed but belief and faith in Christ. Anyone who knows anything about the Mormons knows that they meet this criteria. Christ defines what a Christian is NOT men no matter what kind if "creed" they come up with.--124.40.63.122 (talk) 18:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Before this conversation continues, note this is not a forum. Instead of opinions about if X is Y and if Y is Y, please discuss how the article can be improved. In this specific case, that might be by presenting reliable sources (such as scholarly papers) discussing this issue. tedder (talk) 19:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

"Mormonism and Christianity" or "Comparisons within Christianity" heading and edits

I have posted edits to the heading and some of the contents of this section. Those edits have been reversed without adequate explanation. My aim is to make the section more neutral and more accurate. Since the two users who have reversed the edits have not yet been specific, I will simply begin this dialogue with the issue of the wording in the heading itself. If desired, we can dialogue about other specifics once they are identified.

A NPOV would seem to require a respectful recognition that the LDS Church and other church groups have an honest disagreement about which groups do or do not belong under the heading of "Christianity." The wording "Comparisons within Christianity" begs the question by asserting that the LDS Church is "within Christianity." That is a point of debate as both versions of the section clearly document. So the heading "Comparisons within Christianity" asserts an LDS POV. The alternative "Mormonism and Christianity" makes no assertion in either direction. It is in fact the title of a more complete article on the issue. Because of the policy on NPOV, the wording "Mormonism and Christianity" is an improvement. Scoopczar (talk) 19:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm ... I'm an evangelical Pentecostal Christian (full disclosure) and while I have serious concerns of the beliefs of Mormons and would not consider the institutional LDS church a Christian church, logically speaking if they claim to believe and worship Christ that would make them in some sense "christian". The fact is, I think, as an encyclopedia, we have to term them Christian for lack of a better alternative and because it just makes since for classification purposes. But of course, we still must accurately report that many (most?) Christians churches would not consider them Christian. I also see no reason for your edits and prefer the older version. Also, you changed "1st century" to "first century" which is contrary Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Ltwin (talk) 19:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

"Mormonism and Christianity" is, in my opinion the correct heading for this section. Using the other phrase may imply that Mormonism is 'outside' of Christianity. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and most other groups in the Latter Day Saint tradition, are Restorationist Christians and clearly fit that definition. I also believe the article/talk page dealing with Mormonism and Christianity would be a better place for debating these issues. WBardwin (talk) 20:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't have time for a full rundown right now, but among other things that were changed is stating that "Because of these differences, the LDS church ... views itself as a restoration of first century Christianity" which is incorrect. It has differences and it views itself as a restoration, not a cause and effect. VernoWhitney (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

@WBardwin - I don't see how "Comparison within Christianity" places Mormonism outside of Christianity. I've restored the heading somewhat but switched it to be "Comparison with mainstream Christianity" to parallel the other "Comparsion" subsection, but I seem to recall some people don't like the term "mainstream Christianity". However, I believe that this new heading is equally ambiguous as "Mormonism and Christianity" and doesn't promote either POV (also, Mormonism is slightly larger than the LDS Church so somewhat inaccurate). I've also moved the two Comparison sections together, and have noticed that there is some redundancies between the "Distinctive doctrines and practices" and this subsection that will need to be cleaned up.

(And I just realized the system didn't tell me that you had edited the article while I was working on the reorganization so the edit summary was not directed at you - strange that it didn't give me an edit conflict).

@Scoopczar - This ground already been hashed over multiple times on other more prominent, more top-level articles, such as Christianity and List of Christian denominations, which include LDS as a Christian denomination. As one editor over there said, "Can we nip this discussion in the bud? We've had it before. We'll have it again. The shorter it is, the better. We refer to JWs and Mormons as Christians whether they "really" are or not." Most scholarly sources, which are the standard on WP, clearly place the LDS within Christianity. Most of your additional edits pushed the POV of LDS being outside of Christianity such as, changing "shared beliefs" to "similar beliefs", removal of the Original Sin statements (note that Eastern Orthodoxy also rejects the doctrine), and ambiguous and uncited statements saying the LDS and other churches differ on "specifics"). --FyzixFighter (talk) 20:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is the Encyclopedia Britannica online section on Mormon doctrine. Note how the comparison with "orthodox Christian" [EB's term] is handled.

Mormon beliefs are in some ways similar to those of orthodox Christian churches but also diverge markedly. The doctrinal statement, the Articles of Faith, for example, affirms the belief in God, the eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. But the three are considered to be distinct entities (a doctrine known as tritheism) rather than united in a single person in the Trinity. Although Mormons believe that Christ came to earth so that all might be saved and raised from the dead, they maintain that a person’s future is determined by his own actions as well as by the grace of God. They also stress faith, repentance, and acceptance of the ordinances of the church, including baptism by immersion and laying on of hands for the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Mormons administer the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper as a memorial of Christ’s death.

Mormons believe that faithful members of the church may receive God’s fullness and thus become gods themselves. Everyone who ever lived, save for a few who reject God having known his power, will receive some degree of glory in the afterlife. At Christ’s return to earth, he will establish a millennial kingdom. After the millennium, the earth will become a celestial sphere and the inheritance of the righteous. Others will be assigned to lesser kingdoms named terrestrial and “telestial.”

Mormons regard Christian churches as apostate for lacking revelation and an authoritative priesthood, although they are thought to be positive institutions in other respects. Smith, they believe, came to restore the institutions of the early Christian church. Although calling people to repent, Smith’s creed reflected contemporary American optimism in its emphasis on humanity’s inherent goodness and limitless potential for progress. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392525/Mormonism

I had not read Britannica's article before composing my edits, however, I note the following observations:

1. Stating that LDS beliefs "are in some ways similar to those of orthodox Christian churches but also diverge markedly" does in fact reflect current scholarly and professional standards in a world class general encyclopedia.

2. The Mormon view of "humanity's inherent goodness" reflects 19th century American optimism, not a shared doctrine of sin with Christian churches.

3. The Mormon view of "Christian churches as apostate" is a more accurate and honest portrayal of the separation perceived on both sides of the divide than the current WP article provides.

@VernoWhitney - I accept your comment about cause and effect. When I post again following discussion, I will incorporate that suggestion. Just for discussion here, however, what would be the need for a restoration if not to correct those differences with an "apostate" Christianity? As for my use of "specifics," I admit that is weak writing on my part. I was trying not to add more length. The point is that the content and definition of Mormon doctrines is profoundly different from that of Christian doctrines bearing the same labels. To imply that they are shared is inaccurate and misleading. They are, in fact, similar in some respects but not more than that. I think Britannica got it right.

@FyzixFighter - Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions all hold to some view of inherited sinfulness. The Mormon view of the Fall is radically different. See http://www.mormonwiki.com/Original_Sin "Original Sin" per se is a Catholic term, but not even Catholic doctrine teaches that men and women are guilty of the specific offense committed by Adam and Eve; that is an erroneous description of the Catholic position. It is incorrect to list rejection of original sin as a point of common ground between LDS and orthodox Christianity. The Orthodox (capital O) view of "ancestral sin" is much closer to the Catholic view of "original sin" than it is to the Mormon view of inherent goodness. The Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant positions on this doctrine are close to each other and light years apart from the Mormon view of the Fall. There is common ground between Mormon doctrine and Christian doctrine, but this is simply not one of them. Could you provide me with some references to document your statement: "Most scholarly sources, which are the standard on WP, clearly place the LDS within Christianity." Britannica does not concur with this, and neither does the Hartford Encyclopedia of Religion and Sociology Society. http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Mormomism.htm Could you provide some non-Mormon scholarly reference works that do agree with this POV? On a positive note, I agree that your "Comparison with mainstream Christianity" is equally NPOV as "Mormonism and Christianity"

My problem with the article section is that it is designed to advance a POV by inaccurately representing certain LDS positions and orthodox Christian positions so that they appear to be the same. This is not a neutral representation. I do not wish to revise the section to suggest that the LDS POV is wrong, simply that it is distinct. Scoopczar (talk) 00:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay, let me start out by saying that I assume you understand my explanation for my first revert, but I don't think there's a big issue with your other changes. I reverted your other changes because FyzixFighter clearly had reservations which I thought could be worked out here. Now on to the few nits I do see:

I'm not really sure the best way to reword the sentence I mentioned before, although now that I'm looking at it with more time I think it would be more accurate to say something like (but better than) "it views itself as a restoration and thus has different traditions", since they are related as you point out, just the reverse of the way you originally had it worded. I don't think there are any problems with "Mormonism and Christianity" as an NPOV section title since that's the title of the other article (and it can just follow the article if the article gets moved due to other POV concerns which can be better addressed there). As far as your comment to FyzixFighter regarding LDS within Christianity, I'll cite some Brittanica here which explains how it can be viewed either way, but it's not a citable source since it's tertiary and not secondary:

On these terms, writers of Christian history normally begin phenomenologically when discussing Christian identity; that is, they do not bring norms or standards by which they have determined the truth of this or that branch of Christianity or even of the faith tradition as a whole but identify everyone as Christian who call themselves Christian. Thus, from one point of view, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the Mormons as they are commonly called, is, in the view of scholar Jan Shipps, “a new religious tradition.” The followers of the Book of Mormon incorporated the Old and New Testaments into their canon—just as the New Testament Christians incorporated the entire scripture of a previous tradition—and then supplied reinterpretations. As a new religious tradition, Mormonism would not be Christian. But because Mormons use Christian terminology and call themselves Christian, they might also belong to a discussion of Christianity. They may be perceived as departing from the essence of Christianity because other Christians regard their progressive doctrine of God as heretical. Yet Mormons in turn point to perfectionist views of humanity and progressive views of God among more conventionally accepted Christian groups. In areas where the Mormons want to be seen as “latter-day” restorers, basing their essential faith on scriptures not previously accessible to Christians, they would be ruled out of conventional Christian discussion and treatment. Yet they share much of Christian culture, focus their faith in Jesus, proclaim a way of salvation, and want to be included for other purposes, and thus fall into the context of a Christian identity at such times.

— http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/115240/Christianity

While it can obviously be argued either way, I agree with FyzixFighter that at least traditionally Wikipedia has followed the interpretation from the later half of the EB quote above, and included religions such as Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses in Christianity. VernoWhitney (talk) 13:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

@Scoopczar - Scholarly sources that clearly place LDS in Christianity:

• 2001 American Religious Identification Survey
• CIA - The World Factbook -- Field Listing::Religion
• The Religious Composition of the United States

There are a lot of other sources, for example a host of surveys (lots over at [www.thearda.com ARDA]) that almost always place LDS/Mormon as a subset of Christianity.

I don't see the statements where in either EB or the HERS which supports your claim and explicitly states the LDS are not part of Christianity. On the other hand, they also don't explicitly state the opposite, but again, the references I mention above are explicit in where they place the LDS.

As for the original sin bit, I think 1) your expanding the statement (unwarranted imo) to include the more overarching doctrine of the fall and 2) you don't have reliable sources to back up your arguments. Certainly there are aspects of the doctrine of the Fall that differ, but I don't think the divide is "light years". To say that LDS argue that no sin occurred is ignoring the fact that LDS distinguish between "sin" and "trangression". In LDS theology, Adam and Eve did transgress (see AoF #2), ie they violated a commandment of God and were cut off from God's presence because of it, but it would not qualify as a "sin" because sin requires prior knowledge of good and evil. As descendants of Adam and Eve, all of humanity is also in a fallen condition, separated from God and subject to physical death. However, we are not condemned by what many call the "original sin."[2] This seems very much in line with the Eastern Orthodoxy statement that "while humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death." The problem here is a disagreement about what is meant by rejection of original sin. Probably what is meant by rejection of original sin is the rejection of the need for infant baptism and the rejection that the corporeal body is inherently evil. --FyzixFighter (talk) 15:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

@FyzixFighter - To keep this manageable, I'd like to discuss with you at this point just one specific assertion in the article that I see as incorrect: Rejection of original sin is one example of an LDS teaching that is "shared with other branches of Christianity." Which branches of Christianity share the LDS rejection of original sin? Do the Catholics? Of course not.1 Protestants come in many variations, but the major streams all accept the concept of original sin--including Lutheran,2 Reformed,3 Anabaptist,4 Wesleyan,5 and Anglican.6 The 19th century Restoration (Stone-Campbell) movement avoids doctrinal statements other than the Bible itself, but I have never met a member of this movement who would share the LDS view regarding original sin. Interestingly, the WP article on OS includes a section that says that the Restoration (S-C) movement rejects OS, but it has no citation for this claim. Furthermore, a portion of the section shows that this rejection may pertain to the mistaken definition of OS often ascribed to Catholics of transmitting the guilt of A&E's sinful act.7 I am not aware of a significant historic Protestant group that shares the LDS position with regard to original sin. You seem to have asserted that the Orthodox position is "very much in line" with the LDS position. The Orthodox doctrine, however, is called Ancestral Sin and, as the WP article notes and documents,8 it is very similar to the Catholic doctrine.9 (Non-Catholics sometimes incorrectly define the Catholic OS doctrine as passing on the guilt of Adam and Eve's act to others. Catholic doctrine explicitly denies that OS means that.10) The Orthodox (along with Catholics and Protestants) believe that Adam and Eve sinned; the LDS believe that Adam and Eve transgressed but did not sin.11 Cs, Os, and Ps believe that the sin of A&E separated the human race from God and left us with an inclination toward sinning. The LDS believe that the innocent transgression (not sin) of A&E separated the human race from God but did not leave us with an inclination toward sinning. It could be documented that LDS have a doctrine of fallen humanity and spiritual death as do Cs, Os, and Ps albeit with significant differences. However, I fail to see any way to document an assertion that "other branches of Christianity" share the LDS rejection of Original Sin. Which branch of Christianity shares substantially the same doctrine on this point as the LDS? If the real issue is infant baptism, why not say that rather than OS?

Part of the problem that I see is with ambiguous wording. The overall effect of the entire paragraph, which ends with the words "are also held in common," is to give the impression that there are a number of teachings and practices that are the same among Mormons, Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, and any other groups that are included in Christianity.12 I find the effect to be misleading. It is more accurate to speak of similarities than to speak of these beliefs and practices as being "held in common," which makes it sound as if they are the same.

At this point, I ask for your agreement simply to remove "rejection of original sin" from the list. If you agree, then I'd like to move on to discussion of other inaccuracies that I perceive. If not, we can try discussing it further, then appeal for dispute resolution if needed. Thank you for the interaction. Scoopczar (talk) 05:41, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Posts which Mormons might possibly not like to read are routinely removed. I would like to know whether this is being done by Mormon activists, the Mormon Church's PR staff, or by overly PC Wikipedia editors afraid that undue attention to fact might offend someone somewhere... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 13:10, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Joint-Heirs and Atonement vis-à-vis Exaltation

Regarding an edit by B Fizz that added atonement and joint-heirs terminology, I reverted then added a sentence on joint-heirs tied closely to the citation. Regarding atonement, the "Godhood" article cited makes no mention of atonement in its treatment of Exaltation. The Gospel Principles source has a full chapter on Atonement with no reference to exaltation. I checked every occurrence of "atonement" in Gospel Principles; not one is related to exaltation or godhood in the text. Keep in mind that the section in view is on distinctive LDS doctrines. The article already mentions atonement in the Comparisons with Mainstream Christianity section. Atonement is not necessarily distinctive to LDS. If someone wants to add a sentence about atonement tied explicitly to exaltation in a RS, I see no problem with doing so as long as OR is avoided. Scoopczar (talk) 02:40, 3 July 2010 (UTC) Also, B Fizz, wording changes should not be marked as a "minor edit" per WP policy. Cheers Scoopczar (talk) 02:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Apologies for marking the edit as minor. See the LDS publication Preparing for Exaltation (lesson 4). The linked chapter's stated purpose is "To help class members gain an appreciation for the Atonement of Jesus Christ and its role in enabling us to gain exaltation." The note to the teacher also states, "Through the Atonement, we have the opportunity to repent and gain exaltation." The LDS church teaches that the Atonement has multiple purposes, so when teaching that topic the word "exaltation" may not come up. But when teaching about exaltation, the Atonement is almost inevitably mentioned as the only way to achieve it. See also Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor (chapter 5), previous material used for LDS Sunday School, which concludes, "Thus His atonement made it possible for us to obtain an exaltation, which we could not have possessed without it." ...comments? ~BFizz 19:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Monotheism vs. Polytheism

I simply wanted to address the fact that neither the definition of "Mormonism" nor "LDS" contain any qualifying description as to whether said faith is Polytheistic or Henotheistic. Theologically, the argument can be made that since they "worship" Elohim (who was himself a spirit child) that there is a type of Hierarchy which suggests a kind of Henotheism. While this is my personal opinion; there seems to be enough evidence within Mormonism's own teachings to eliminate the term "Monotheism" from being used.

Ebyonim - Aug 20, 2010 Ebyonim (talk) 10:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebyonim (talk • contribs) 09:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think an exact term for classifying Mormon theology exists, and it doesn't really matter that much. It's an ambiguous case, kind of like traditional Christianity which is not quite monotheism (at least in the Islamic, Jewish, or Zoroastrian sense), and not quite tritheism. If I had to pick a word for Mormon theology, I would pick henotheism, but that isn't quite right either, because Mormons worship not just one god, but three distinct gods who are "one" only metaphorically in the sense that any three humans can be "one" in purpose or will. It's not quite Arianism, either, because Mormon theology teaches that the Father and Son were co-eternal. COGDEN 19:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I concur - it is somewhat blurry...This could be an unending topic. But, even within that "trinity" is not Elohim the "top" of the three??? "Father and Son were co-eternal" - how did Jesus' brother (satan) fit into that?? Ebyonim (talk) 00:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Latter Day Saints consider Elohim to be the literal Father of their spirits, and Jesus to be a literal spirit-brother. They believe Satan to be a spirit brother as well, but one who rebelled and lost the potential to become like the Father and inherit from him—a potential which they believe Jesus fulfilled, and faithful saints believe to be in the process of fulfilling for themselves. It's a very different view of the relationship between God and man, which makes it difficult to fit into a classification like "polytheism" or "henotheism", though main elements of these classifications do apply to the case. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Would the family-linage metaphor/narrative of Satan/Jesus/Man/God used in Mormon theology really affect the WP classification as Monotheistic to Polytheism (or henotheism)?? Are perceived implications of the narratives more important than how the group itself categorizes itself? Or a description of how the Church frames it's worship and doctrines presently? As we know, a religious group's creation narratives (and logical implications of such narratives) don't necessarily predict that religious group's present-day doctrines or provide a clear description of that groups doctrines. Rather, these narratives are tools used by a religious group (in this case the LDS Church/Mormons) to explain/present certain aspects of the world and to justify certain doctrines. I'm asking, if it's actually appropriate for an aspect of this article (the categorizations) to be based on the question "Is the present Mormon teachings really consistent with their narratives"... and if it is, WOW that's a big problem to chew on. --Retran (talk)

I'm not sure I see the difference you're trying to draw between "teachings" and "narratives". Mormon Sunday school manuals present the narratives I mentioned as factual, not metaphor, though some details are indeed left out (since they are "not known" or "have not been revealed yet") or described by metaphor instead, such as Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit. See early chapters of Gospel Principles, a current LDS study manual. ...comments? ~BFizz 14:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

A narrative is a story... a teaching is instruction to others, which can often refer to a narrative. For instance, there's many teachings/lessons (sometimes contradicotry) that can be made from any given narrative. This doesn't apply to Mormons alone, but to any group. I hope this helps you understand the difference between what a narrative is, vs. a teaching. --Retran (talk) 19:36, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

The only thing metaphorical in LDS theology is the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. They are one in Mormon metaphor, but three in Mormon reality. The monotheism/polytheism duality breaks down within Mormonism because Mormons believe that all human spirits (including Jesus and even Satan) are co-eternal with God, and are in fact proto-gods (Satan probably having lost his chance to progress to godhood), just as all gods are advanced humans. Yet while believing in many gods, Mormons believe in a supreme God (God the Father), who is the supreme being in a relative sense—supreme because he is superior than any other beings known to Mormon theology, though ultimately there are unknown and un-worshipped beings far superior even to him. COGDEN 07:59, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Mormons are Monotheist. It is true that they do know that there are beings which have acquired godhood and are thus creating their own realities (completely outside of our own Universe, and can thus be regarded as almost nonexistent as far as earthly man needs be concerned) they do not worship, pray to, or even speak of them in anyway at any church service. They are irrelevant and do not receive even a second thought at anytime. Mormons acknowledge, pray to, LOVE and regard only our Heavenly Father as the One True and Living God, and he alone is worshiped. Christ is the Messiah, and also God the Son and also loved dearly and when he is on Earth he is worshiped since he represents the Father and to see him is to see the Father.--124.40.63.122 (talk) 19:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Quality Problem: Reliance on First Hand Sources (ie: Book of Mormon)

The reliance this article places on first hand sources in describing doctrine is problematic, troubling, and not in line with WP policy. For instance, in the "Comparisons with mainstream Christianity" section there is a sentence "LDS theology includes belief...[in] (Jesus Christ's) virgin birth, restorationism (via a Restoration of Christ's church given through Joseph Smith, Jr.), millennialism, continuationism, penal substitution,"... and the citation is simply a verse in Alama from the Book of Mormon. This sentence includes a slew of theological concepts, some quite complex, and I would argue, would require a 2nd hand expert's account for citation. I am challenging this sentence as it is, and am challenging the use of this citation for the backing up of this sentence. Using a pimary source means that most likely, this sentence (and probably much other content in this article) is ORIGINAL RESEARCH. I don't necessarily take issue with the factual basis, but we should NOT rely on a primary source per WP:NOR.--Retran (talk) 11:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

With that in mind, specifically I have trouble with attributing the doctrinal concept of "virgin birth" as a teaching held in common with the rest of Christianity. I am outside Mormonism now, but I was raised Mormon, went on a mission, etc, and would have been appalled if someone had attributed that doctrine to my understanding of the belief system (ie: I did not think we as Mormons believed in the virgin birth). However, it is possible that I always misunderstood that doctrinal point as it is held officially by the church. I would like to know if anyone can point me to some secondary research on this?--Retran (talk) 11:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Mormons do believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, that is, "that Mary miraculously conceived Jesus while remaining a virgin." See Alma 7:10. I'm sure I could find a quote from a church authority saying the same. However, they do not believe in the immaculate conception, that is, that Mary lived a sinless life (though they do hold Mary in high esteem).

Regarding the use of the BoM for citation, I agree that it should typically be avoided. Citing official, current church manuals would be ideal, though, of course, the Standard Works are also considered ever-current church manuals, in a sense. I certainly agree that, if the source doesn't support its sentence very clearly and obviously, we should try to source it better. ...comments? ~BFizz 13:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The above is not original research. I think it's all verifiable, but I agree we need to use better sources. The citations to the Book of Mormon are not enough in themselves, not because the Book of Mormon is a primary source, but because modern LDS Church doctrine was developed in the 20th century by writers like James E. Talmage, B.H. Roberts, and John A. Widtsoe. That modern orthodoxy is not reflected in the Book of Mormon, which was published before Mormonism began to really diverge from traditional Christianity. COGDEN 03:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

As to the virgin birth doctrine, the orthodox status of that might be a little uncertain. Joseph Smith taught the standard Christian virgin birth doctrine. However, Brigham Young taught that Jesus was the result of a sexual union between Adam and Mary, which became the orthodoxy of the 19th century. Orson Pratt provided a competing theory that Jesus was the result of a sexual union between God the Father (Elohim) and Mary, and Pratt's theory was included as part of modern Mormonism when it was formulated in the 20th century. Mary was considered a "virgin" only in the sense that she didn't have sex with any mortal man. But since the death of Ezra Taft Benson, that doctrine may be losing its orthodoxy. Nobody since Benson has really been teaching it, and some Mormon writers are backing away from the doctrine and adopting the virgin birth doctrine. It's hard to tell if Pratt's doctrine is still orthodox. But for purposes of this article, we should assume it is, unless we can find a source saying that Mormons have embraced the traditional virgin birth doctrine. COGDEN 05:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Criticism: massacre

This sentence is poorly worded (emphasis mine indicating confusing part):

“ According to Mormon apologists, this was done in an act of self defense from further persecution via false information; the massacre was in fact an accident ”

I fixed the punctuation with a semicolon, but I'm not really sure exactly what this sentence is trying to say. The "from further persecution" and "via false information" phrases don't really make sense the way they are currently laid out. "In fact" is also a sketchy phrase to use in describing a point of view. Ideas? ...comments? ~BFizz 03:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Let's just delete the whole sentence, as simply false. I don't know of any mainstream apologists (let alone mainstream historians) who still claim that the massacre was an act of self defense or an accident. Moreover, the article only cites Will Bagley and Richard Turley, and neither of these two authors claim the massacre was either self defense or an accident. Let's just delete the sentence. COGDEN 06:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

That's kinda what I was thinking. I skimmed the LDS newsroom article, and searched the cited book on google books; neither used the word "accident" to describe the massacre, nor did I get that vibe very clearly from either. ...comments? ~BFizz 13:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know where the word 'accident' first came from in this instance, but it would be pure folly to attempt to use the word 'accident' when describing the simultaneous cold blooded murder of this large group of unarmed people. It was a well thought out plan that worked to perfection. The only 'vibe' that I got from reading the cited material was that the murderers were going to stop at nothing in order to gain the possessions of the innocent murder victims. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 15:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

HELP: WWW/INTERNET Technical (Meta-Tag Issue) "LSD" vs "LDS"

I fear (presume) that I am posting incorrectly, since I am NOT an experienced "wiki-pedian" and furthermore was terrified to post anything in a "controversial" subject like something about religion: HOWEVER, I encountered something so egregious that I could not let it stand without comment/posting (I did search the various comment/history pages for the relevant terms, however, without result before posting)-

In my search of "history" and "discussion" segments (as well as the current (as of this minute date aprox 21:09 MTN USA on 15 Sept. 2010) I found no incidence of the term "LSD" in the Wikipedia pages. Nonetheless, I have found via "google" (try it yourself! "church of jesus christ of latter day saints") the following text included as part of a search result (despite the fact that it seems NOT to appear in the actual article):

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the LSD Church, and colloquially referred to as the Mormon Church) is a restorationist ..."

EMPHASIS ADDED.

I discovered this while doing research, I am not a member - and really an not much of an apologist - for the Church, but to be true to my own interpretation of Wiki-pedia ideals, it seems that this (hopefully) typo has no place appearing in the Meta-Tag results of a "google search" related to this religious entity.

Please, dont "flame" me, please "correct" this if you know how, or in the "alternative case" please direct me in where would be the appropriate place to direct my observation so that it could be rectified by "pwers that be" or at least people who know how to "fix" such things.

Thank you for your patience.

Slds GrinchPeru (talk) 02:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

What you saw was vandalism and was removed as soon as someone noticed it. We have no control over how often Google updates their search results and no real way to ensure that the blurbs they display are up to date and/or free from vandalism. VernoWhitney (talk) 02:29, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Ahh, oki thanks for your reply. So if I understand correctly that "LSD" reference actually "was" in fact part of the page somewhere along the way, and during that "vandalized period" the Google Spider visited and "automatically" took its snippet, (unfortunately picking up that vandalism). In other words, next time around the google spider will take its "new" sample from the devandalized page and voila it "automatically" goes away. Hope thats the case. Again, thanks. GrinchPeru (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

External Links removed

I've been bold and pared down the External Links section, which in my opinion was going way overboard. Here's what I've removed:

Official church websites

• scriptures.lds.org – Online scriptures and study guides
• FamilySearch.org – One of the largest collections of free family history, family tree and genealogy records in the world
• new.familysearch.org - An updated version of the FamilySearch.org website.
• Provident Living – Self-reliance and welfare resources
• Church Educational System – Religious education for secondary and tertiary school students
• JosephSmith.net – Information on the life and mission of Church founder Joseph Smith
• Distribution Services – Church and gospel supplies available to order
• BeSmart.com – Tertiary education opportunities
• Polynesian Cultural Center – Tourist attraction owned by LDS Church
• Jesus Christ – Information and testimony regarding Jesus Christ
• President Thomas S. Monson – Official information on the president of the church
• LDS Church News – An official news publication for the LDS Church
• Mormon Channel – Official radio station (talk and music) broadcasting 24 hours daily.
• Mormonmessages on Youtube – Official Youtube Page of the LDS Church
• Combating Pornography.org - Official Church website for information about resources designed to help combat pornography.
• Preserving Marriage.org - Official Church website for information about preserving the divine institution of marriage.
• LDS Employment Resource Services - Official Church website for information about helping Church members find employment.
• Deseret Book – LDS bookstore owned by LDS Church

Educational institutions

• BYU Jerusalem Center
• BYU Salt Lake Center
• Missionary Training Center (MTC)

Miscellaneous church-related websites

• LDS Today – News related to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
• Mormon Momma – Scholarship and fellowship for LDS women
• Audio Book of Mormon – Free download, mp3 format
• The LDS Woman – Free online social network and magazine for LDS women
• Mormonism Search – Search Mormon Web Sites – Browser Plugin Available
• Mission.net – Church missionary alumni and informational site
• Bible References Supporting The Beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
• Mormon Studies – A site dedicated to the academic and cultural study of Mormonism.
• The Genesis Group – website for black Latter-day Saints, their families and friends, and individuals interested in the LDS Church
• Mormon Times – For and about members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Music

• Church Music – official website
• Mormon Tabernacle Choir – official website
• Music and the Spoken Word – official website
• Saints Unified Voices
• Liahona.net – free LDS-type music in MP3 format.

My feeling is that most if not all of these fail to qualify as valid external links under WP:EL. But if anyone objects to one or more of these being removed, let's discuss it. alanyst ^/talk/ 17:29, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm in agreement. There might be more (for instance, all of the educational institutions should be removed, they have their on Wikipedia articles). Additionally, there needs to be some balance on the "fansites"/communities that are included. tedder (talk) 18:17, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

• So now we're down to only 14 external links, but still these words [3] ring in my ears: "Indeed, there are a lot of links that don't belong there per guidelines (such as "only one official link") Duke53 | ^Talk 18:48, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Right, and the work Alanyst is doing is helping. Or I'm missing the point you are trying to make. tedder (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

14 > 1. I can jump in and help to get down to the 'one official link'; just give me the word and I will get right on it. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 19:52, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I decided to be bold; we are now down to 9 external links. I will click on them and decide which additional ones should go. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:21, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with nearly all of your removals, Duke53. The only one I'm restoring is the one to Dialogue, which is one of the most notable independent journals devoted to LDS studies. (I am not affiliated in any way with the journal, in case anyone might have COI concerns.) I've also removed the link to the Joseph Smith papers (too specific for the scope of this article) and added a "Reference sites and indexes" heading and included a link to the Open Directory Project's node for the topic; this was a suggestion I took from the instructions at WP:EL. I'd like to see a couple more links that are more from an outsider's perspective of the church as a whole (but academic, not polemic please).

Aside from needing a few such links for diversity's sake, I think the list as it now stands is pretty good. WP:EL doesn't strictly mandate only one official link: "If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate. However, Wikipedia does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website....More than one official link should be provided only when the additional links provide the reader with unique content and are not prominently linked from other official websites....Choose the minimum number of links that provide readers with the maximum amount of information." IMO, the three official church website links satisfy this guidance decently though not perfectly: lds.org as the primary website geared more toward church members, mormon.org as the primary website geared toward those outside the faith, and newsroom.lds.org for current events and press releases. (There are links from lds.org to mormon.org, but whether they are "prominently" linked is somewhat subjective, so I lean towards keeping mormon.org for its potential usefulness to non-members.) The other links that used to be there were too specific for the scope of this article. The rest of the remaining links seem to be general-purpose reference sites worthy of keeping. Thoughts? alanyst ^/talk/ 03:37, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I would personally lean towards axing all links except lds.org and the Open Directory Project link. We may want to consider linking http://new.lds.org instead of http://lds.org . The "academic" and "miscellaneous" resources aren't really necessary here, imho. Needless to say, I support the removal of links that has already occurred. ...comments? ~BFizz 04:02, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Because Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought already has its own WP article, it may be better placed in the See also section. Perhaps some other external links have their own articles, too, and can be moved to that section. Alanraywiki (talk) 04:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with BFi on this ... if there is no other differing input here by tomorrow morning I will whittle the links down to those two. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 06:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I think paring it down to just two links is not unreasonable, but pretty severe. My personal feeling is that the current handful of links is more helpful, but I won't put up a fuss if further cuts are made. I'd wait an extra day to allow for anyone else with an opinion to chime in before proceeding to whittle, but that's just a suggestion. (Also, I would not link to new.lds.org; I think that's a URL for the beta site and likely to be redirected to lds.org when the beta goes into full production. Leave it at lds.org which is highly unlikely to break in the foreseeable future.) alanyst ^/talk/ 06:38, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

"no referenced material is lost and more information is given"

Now I can't seem to see the information that "CAH also filed a complaint against the Mormon's front organization, NOM National Organization for Marriage. NOM is under investigation in Maine for possible money laundering. As of today the Maine investigation is ongoing". Coincidence ? I think not. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 18:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC) How is that not considered 'lost' ? Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 18:36, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I can't help but feel that I'm being drawn into a 3RR violation, so I'd appreciate it if some other editor would restore this referenced material, so the information is not 'lost'. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 19:26, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

IMO, that material is too WP:UNDUE to merit restoring, and is in fact an example of misused sources. Among its problems: "The Mormon's front organization" is a quote from the spokesperson of CAH that appears in the California Progress Report source, but in the WP article it is presented as an unattributed fact. That quote also has a punctuation error ("Mormon's") present in both the CPR article and the WP material, and there are other similarities in wording that strongly suggest a copy-paste job (i.e., plagiarism). Furthermore, California Progress Report itself is not a reliable source according to its own About Us link: "Opinions expressed in articles, comments and links appearing in the California Progress Report are those of the author, and may not reflect the opinion of its publisher. Our limited staffing does not allow California Progress Report to fact check the content of articles." Aside from the sourcing problems, the placement of the material under "Finances" is odd since it's about a fine, and its presence in such a broadly scoped article seems like too much WP:RECENTISM. The bit about Maine is pretty clearly intended to insinuate wrongdoing even though it's just an investigation with the outcome not yet determined. And finally, this is a full paragraph, seven sentences and two references, about a roughly $5000 fine for the Church failing to report its contributions daily in the last two weeks of the Prop 8 campaign. It's a textbook example of undue weight. alanyst ^/talk/ 04:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

My problem is / was more with the edit summary than anything else: when an editor says "no referenced material is lost and more information is given" then I expect that to be true. In this case referenced material was deleted and less information was given. The Maine investigation should be referenced somewhere, as it may become important in many ways regarding the lds church and its political activism. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 06:02, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I've found some additional info about the Maine investigation (it's moving in the Federal Courts) and will be adding it soon ... what would be a good section to be augmented with it ? Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 06:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it belongs in this article at all. Too detailed for the scope of the article, and the investigation is of NOM, not the Church itself, so far as I understand it. Might belong in different articles, like those on Prop 8 or NOM. alanyst ^/talk/ 07:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Naw, I think it would fit in nicely in the 'Controversy and criticism' section; the Prop 8 controversy is already there, so this would be an appropriate place for it. This could be a 'biggie' for how far churches can get involved with political actions in the future (possibly with federal tax ramifications ). Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 07:48, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL for one thing. We don't write about something that is going to be important (but isn't yet) or could be a biggie or possibly have federal tax ramifications. I don't think you've addressed my arguments about scope and relevance...but if you don't wish to, then we probably need to step away from this discussion as we've made our salient points and should let others chime in. alanyst ^/talk/ 08:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Simple English Wikipedia article for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

This my not be the place, but after viewing the Simple English Wikipedia article for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I think many who work on this full Wikipedia article may be interested in working on the simple english page. The criticisms section come to mind, it reads like the first chapter of anti-Mormonism 101. It could use some general work and expansion also--75.169.253.213 (talk) 04:15, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with it. All the criticism there is mentioned in Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or related articles, sourced. Numerous editors have gone over the list of criticisms and found nothing wrong with them. The POV violation in this case would be not having a criticisms section of the LDS Purplebackpack89 04:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

PBP89 - please that is just not true, not "all" and the point of view is not neutral there and it is not all sourced! (I haven't got back there yet but will) Cheers, --Samoojas (talk) 11:37, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Sam, they were sourced. And that was five years ago. What is non-neutral is whitewashing over legitimate criticisms of the LDS church. You're new to this game...maybe when you get a little more experience, Sam and IP, you'll understand what's neutral and what's not Purplebackpack89 15:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Not everything is sourced, but most is. I think the neutrality problem the IP user had is not that things were not true, but the tone in which they were written. Here is the example they used of a criticism listed: "Lying about Mormon history, including hiding facts that could say that Joseph Smith was a bad person, and touting too many good things that Mormons might have done", although it is sourced I don't think that is really a fact, more a opinion, that should be written as such. Anyways this conversation should be continued on the simple english article's talk page.--Mangoman88 (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Why not here? It's been started here, why can't it continue here? Anyway, I disapprove of the idea that the criticisms section should be cut just because it's a certain length of the article. If you want it to be a lower %age of the article, add more sections on other things, don't cut existing things. Also, it's phrased as such because the words used in the EN-wiki criticisms section ("dishonest", "distort") aren't simple. You can change how it is phrased, but don't eliminate that statement altogether, as it is a criticism many have reliably leveled against the Church Purplebackpack89 18:06, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

As the banner at the top of this page says, Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. (emphasis mine). This talk page for this article, that talk page for that article, please. Copy-paste this discussion over to there if it's an issue of discussion history. ...comments? ~BFizz 18:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Editing control?

Why are Mormon missionaries given editing control over the Mormon page? I corrected many of the factual errors in the article and I received a warning. Mormonism is NOT a branch of Christianity. Every Church believes Mormonism to be a mix of paganism, old heresy, and new American folk cult religion. Mormonism does not believe in the same Jesus as Christians, just like Muslims. Mormons are attempting to blend into Christianity, but their teaching clearly is not Christian. Right now, the Mormon page is entirely from a pro-Mormon point of view which seeks to have Mormonism accepted as Christian. How can Wikipedia dare say to be unbiased when you host essentially a propaganda piece written by Mormons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.77.254 (talk) 14:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting

There has been a sudden spate of new editors adding SPAM links to this article today: anybody else thinking that there might be a sockpuppet / meatpuppet situation taking place ? Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm now thinking that this article needs some page protection as more and more new editors are adding this same information. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than meatpuppet references, more specıfıc poınters ın your edıt undos wıll be helpful. We want to contrıbute to the page and are happy to follow guıdelınes ıf they are clearly referenced. No meatpuppets here, just people who want to contrıbute to the bıg collaboratıve sıte. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opencontent (talk • contribs) 20:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than just jumping in and 'contributing' I would suggest that your group learn some of WP's rules first. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Such as WP:BITE. alanyst ^/talk/ 20:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Who is "we"? In any case, productive contributors are welcome, but not those who are editing in bad faith. External links in the body of article are not considered good style, see Wikipedia:Citing sources#Embedded_links and WP:ELPOINTS. Only one official URL is necessary, per WP:EL and the above discussion on this exact issue. tedder (talk) 20:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Tedder said it well. WP is not like other websites; it is considered bad style to put external links in the body of the article. They can be used, however, in an "External Links" section, within references, and very occasionally, within templates that indicate an "official website" field or something of the sort. Wikilinks, not to be confused with Wikileaks ;), on the other hand, are encouraged (within limits of taste and style).

Labeling these edits as "spam" is inappropriate...the ones I saw were, in fact, links to the official lds website, but were misplaced. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:36, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products, services, web sites, fandoms, ideologies, or other memes." Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 21:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

One could assume good faith, that those editors felt those links to be informative rather than promotional. I don't see evidence for the bad-faith assumption you've started with. alanyst ^/talk/ 21:54, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

A better way to have handled might have been to welcome these users on their individual talk pages, which has now been take care of. However in doing this, I have discovered that Template:LDSWelcome could really use a refresh after all of this time; it looks dated & non-standard. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:58, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! This is more productive conversation. Yes, alanyst, I believe all the links we added were to official sites and were informative, not promotional. The WP:BITE from Duke53 was a harsh introduction to the WP community, but these more recent posts are encouraging. When there is so much of what appears to be deliberate mis-information on the Internet about the LDS church, increasing the number of links in the article to official church sites seems like an informative thing to do. "Promotional" in the context of this article would seem to be saying things like "You should all join the LDS church!," which of course we weren't doing. We'll explore ways to add an appropriate number of these newer official links to the appropriate section at the bottom. Thanks for the tips, and the welcome message on our user pages. opencontent (talk) 05:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

• You saw the meatpuppet investigation discussion, right ? It's okay to call the situation a 'meatpuppet situation' when, as it turns out, it was a 'meatpuppet situation' ! The tbm around here will always go out of their way to defend fellow lds editors ... the fact that your group all posted from byu automatically garnered you the support of some of them.

The fact that you were aware enough to employ meatpuppet tactics was a harsh way for you folks to start your WP participation. Also, just because you said "Edits are in full conformance with WP Community Editing Guidelines" doesn't make it so. Nice try though ...  :>)

You might also want to read the discussion here about limiting the number of links in this article. AFAIAC, your links were / are less 'informative' and more 'promotional' in nature. We're not going to allow this article to be turned into another lds tract. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 06:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's count the number of WP:AGF violations here. (1) "The tbm around here will always go out of their way to defend fellow LDS editors" ...using a slur (tbm == True Blue Mormons) and an empirically false stereotype ("will always...defend fellow LDS editors") to undermine efforts to welcome these new editors; (2) "The fact that your group all posted from BYU automatically garnered you the support of some of them" ...which is mind-reading; (3) "You were aware enough to employ meatpuppet tactics" ...which also is mind-reading and rejecting the Occam's Razor explanation of a newbie mistake; (4) "Nice try" ...treating Opencontent's explanation as a tactical maneuver rather than an honest statement; (5) "We're not going to allow this article to be turned into another LDS tract" ...which is a strawman given that Opencontent has explicitly stated they're not trying to be promotional or persuasive. For sheer bad-faith-assumption density that post was depressingly impressive. alanyst ^/talk/ 07:30, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Opencontent, this article used to have a large number of external links to various sites, including several LDS-owned websites like lds.org, mormon.org, familysearch.org, and so forth. A discussion a couple months ago among long-time editors here (including myself) came to the consensus that the volume of links felt too promotional. The list was whittled down to the one official lds.org link, from which the other LDS websites can be reached anyways. If you think other links need to be listed, then put forth your case for them on this talk page—but as the recent consensus is against that, I advise against unilaterally adding links without achieving consensus first. alanyst ^/talk/ 06:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Editors, Duke has a long history of focusing on being less than helpful. His reputation is well known on Wikipedia. It is best if everyone just ignores all his comments. He tires quickly and moves on. Should he revert in an edit without a valid reason, view it as edit warring and move on. Focus on improving the article. When there is a dispute evidenced by legitimate editors, search for a way to edit the article that engenders consensus. Good luck, -^StormRider 09:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposals for improving this article

This article has been stuck in a state of stable mediocrity for a long time, and I just wanted to propose and discuss a few long-term proposals for improving this article. Here is what I think needs to be done over the next months to raise the article to something that might be nominated as a "good" article:

• We need better source citations. Right now, the article has a hodge-podge of primary sources, not all of them used appropriately. I think we should winnow-down the number of sources we use for this article. Because this article has a very broad scope, its sources should ideally have a similarly broad scope. They should almost always be secondary source that give a broad overview of the LDS Church. For example, I'd like to see lots of cites to Bushman's Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction, the Ostlings' Mormon America, Arrington & Bitton's The Mormon Experience, Allen & Leonard's The Story of the Latter-day Saints, O'Dea's The Mormons, etc.
• The prose is dry and technical. We need to make the prose more compelling and interesting to read. In some sections, there is too much focus on numbers and lists. In place of numbers and lists, we can often make generalizations, or move the specific numbers and list materials to the footnotes.
• I think the "Distinctive Doctrines and Practices" section should be expanded and possibly broken into at least a couple of different sections. I think this section is the main topic of interest to the reader, and should provide a brief but comprehensive overview of orthodox LDS beliefs.
• The article spends too much space discussing some subjects of recent news interest such as Proposition 8, which are not very important when considered from a long historical perspective (see WP:Recentism).
• Overall, the article needs to be streamlined. I think some sections presently go into too much detail, like "Sources of authority" and "Comparison with other Latter Day Saint movement faiths".
• Some sections seem redundant, and can probably be integrated into the rest of the article, such as possibly "media and arts" and "Controversy and Criticism". I'm not saying that we should remove or limit the scope of criticism--only that we should address particular criticism only in the section where it is most germane, such as the historical, doctrinal, or finance sections.

COGDEN 21:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Possible Plans for Making This a Featured Article

COGDENs list above is right on in many respects. This is why I thought it would be useful to assign members of the class I'm teaching at BYU to improve the article. I've read more about making class assignments to edit in Wikipedia in the interim; however, I'm concerned that accusations of meatpuppetry will continue. I've challenged my students to turn this article - which definitely needs improvement as COGDEN noted - into a featured article, and we're reading and working to understand exactly what that means. However, given our experience with our first small attempts at improvement, I'm concerned that my students might make 10 weeks or so of concerted effort only to have each improvement unceremoniously rolled back.

So I ask those of you who are the apparent monitors of all edits to this article - are you willing to allow it to be improved? If the class runs afoul of something not listed in Contributing to Wikipedia, which we have read and understand (something like the policy about External Links, which is not listed there and was news to us), will there be rudeness and unexplained deletions? Or will there be some coaching and an assumption of good faith, as it turns out Wikipedia guidelines also encourage? Should we spend our time here or should we invest our energies elsewhere? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and responses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opencontent (talk • contribs) 15:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Aha- that's why there were a bunch of sockpuppets/meatpuppets from BYU all at the same time? Editing is fine, but the additions were mostly like this and this- in other words, adding external links to the body of the article, which doesn't help. Given that you and your students are likely all Mormon and from BYU, make sure to read Wikipedia's policy on neutral point of view. This article is fairly complete- it doesn't have any {{citation needed}} tags. Making these types of change to any article, especially one aimed at GA/FA, is counterproductive. There are, however, articles in the LDS project that need help. I looked through the project and found a few: Jesse Knight, missing pageants at List of pageants of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the redlinks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Articles needed. As instructor, I'd encourage you to check in at Wikipedia:School and university projects. I'm perfectly willing to help out, drop by my talk page if you have questions. (I've helped with a few other classes) tedder (talk) 16:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The allegations of sockpuppets or meatpuppets should and can safely be ignored. They are meaningless and unhelpful. If you are going to focus a group of students on a single article such as this one, then there needs to be a complete understanding of editing with references. This topic is highly controversial and attracts editors from both ends of the spectrum. As such, anything overtly positive is reverted immediately and anything overtly negative is revertned in a similar manner. However, when edits come with reliable sources/references, it is much more difficult to revert.

At the point of adding referenced edits, it is important to first review the entire article; make sure you are not repeating information already present in the article or make sure it is the proper place for the edit.

A review of the entire article with a criticism of how and what could be improved first would be helpful as a class.

Will you meet with opposition? Of course, but when you do so take it to the talk page and explain the logic for the edit. Another way to go about this if there will be dramatic changes to the article, then make a sub-page you edit at will. Ask for assitance from other editors to review as you progress. If it gains agreement then it can then be inserted in this article. Seek assistance from those who are critics of Mormonism. They will be able to broaden your perspective of what is acceptable and what is not. LDS, as all people, can be blind to their own POV at times. It is jarring at first to realize how strong a POV is held, but in time each editor gets the hang of how to edit the article.

Thank you for making an effort to improve Wikipedia. Thank you for making it a class project. Would that this happened more often. Make sure each of the students registers also. Registered users are more respected than those who do not. Cheers and good luck, -^StormRider 06:41, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

In addition, consider making proposals here (on the discussion page) for obvious improvements to the Article. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 06:50, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Opencontent, there are loads upon loads of Wikipedia policy pages; it would be ideal if you and your class read them all, but of course that is infeasible and unfair to ask so much of you. If your interest is in elevating this article, or any other, to featured status, I highly recommend that you understand the good article criteria and featured article criteria. I, and surely others, am more than willing to help with the process of submitting the article for review for featured status once significant improvements have been made. I will make further comments on your talk page. As tedder has suggested, you should carefully consider whether editing this article will provide the experience you desire for your students, rather than having them improve more obscure articles that are in need of references. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Almost forgot, you should also check out the Wikipedia style guide for LDS-related articles, though it may or may not be out of date. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the three most important things I'd like to suggest for the BYU students are: (1) make conservative (and I'm not talking political) changes, and if there are any problems, bring them up on the talk page, (2) work to replace existing primary source references where possible with citations to broad overview books about Mormonism that are considered by both Mormons and non-Mormons to be the preeminent secondary sources on Mormonism broadly, and (3) write as if you weren't Mormon, and were writing about Mormonism the way an entomologist might write about an interesting newly-discovered insect. If you do these three things, you can't go too far astray. COGDEN 00:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

church attendance counts

This edit was in good faith, though I think the sources were lacking. I seem to recall that Ostling's Mormon America discussed the inflated nature of LDS records. Does anyone have that (or another source) handy? tedder (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it was in good faith; I'm also not convinced that The Cumorah Project's analysis of attendance and growth qualifies as a reliable source. I'd also like to see other source(s) to back this up. —C.Fred (talk) 20:53, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it isn't a reliable source, though it might sneak through if termed "The Cumorah Project says..". Still, there should be more reliable sources out there. I just don't have MA or other books anymore. tedder (talk) 20:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

TrulySaid either doesn't understand or doesn't care for WP:3RR and seems to be ignoring requests for discourse or better references for their additions. I agree that they're in good faith - just not having followed in spirit of the wiki. Is it time to WP:RPP until we can get this sorted? Doriftu Speak Up. 22:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Reporting him and having him blocked short-term for 3RR/EW is probably the best we can hope for. Page protection might be appropriate if the incident involved a lot of editors (and/or sockpuppets of a single editor), but that doesn't seem to be the case here, at least not now. Richwales (talk · contribs) 22:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

This topic is a non-starter for me. It comes around periodically when some editors is incensed that the LDS Church inflates their membership numbers; they don't know how, but they are certain the evil empire is jiggering the numbers in order to appear more important. Of course no international church of any size knows the exact number of their faithful attend church weekly. For example, Catholics; does anyone really believe their membership numbers are a reflection of truly participating members? When next in Europe, pass by during mass and count. How about Anglicans? You take the church and none of them has a mechanism capable of counting only active, participating members. Even more important, there is not a legitimate system anywhere in the world that can count them. Making mountains out of mole hills. Move on. -^StormRider 06:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Partially agree/disagree. As I said earlier (see the next section below), I would have no problem citing estimates regarding attendance, activity, self-identification, etc., as long as the exact nature of the cited figure(s) is clearly stated and the material is backed up by a citation to a highly reliable source or sources. I would not, however, approve of language stating or implying that the LDS Church is engaging in deception regarding its number of adherents; not only would such a statement clearly be POV, but I can't imagine any way that such a statement could possibly be substantiated by a reliable source. Richwales (talk · contribs) 17:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

My edit REVISED

Why is the http://www.cumorah.com/ NOT a reliable source? It has research, analysis, and resources concerning the membership claims listed. Some of the researchers are LDS, too. I also referenced lds.org as a source right at first concerning your membership claim. I'm new to this venue and it is not my intention to war. I would like to see some sort of edit to correct the misrepresentation of the numbers in the article. The LDS Church is known to inflate the numbers by counting inactive members and others who no longer participate. The LDS Church requires members to officially resign in writing before they ever take people off their membership rolls. Many people don't bother to officially resign yet they are still counted. I think it is misleading and inaccurate to count people as members who no longer believe in the church. Here's another source to support my edit. http://mormoninfo.org/news-info/news/lds-church-really-fastest-growing-church It is coming to my attention that this article is being monitored and edited by BYU students. My question is: Are you being neutral by rejecting valid sources that challenge your membership numbers? Is it you that gets to determine what is a valid source or not a valid source? Are you only going to accept LDS sources? If you are...then you aren't being neutral. Please comment as to a reasonable solution. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|(TrulySaid (talk) 23:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)) comment added by TrulySaid (talk • contribs) 22:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

From looking at the "about" page for cumorah.com and mormoninfo.org, it seems to me that these websites generally fall under the category of Self-published sources. In other words, they are not scholarly sources. See also the rule of thumb regarding usage by other sources. The exception in this case is lds.org; the Wikipedia guideline for self-published sources states that "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field..." and goes on to list some constraints. I do believe, however, that there are scholarly sources that challenge LDS membership numbers; we just need to find them. ...comments? ~BFizz 01:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Roughly how the LDS Church counts its membership is described in this press release, and there is a theological reason for why the LDS Church counts its membership the way it does. Nevertheless, the most appropriate number for membership--if we had it--would probably be the number of self-identified Latter-day Saints worldwide. We don't know that number. It's certainly less than the LDS Church number, but it's also larger than the number of people who are active attendees. Many inactive Mormons still consider themselves to be LDS. So I think the bottom line is, nobody knows how many Latter-day Saints there are, and the only source we have regarding the methodology of counting members is the LDS Church itself, which in this case is credible (the church admits something for which it has been criticized, which makes the admission credible), but I'd rather cite to a reliable secondary source. COGDEN 03:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I would be OK with including a smaller figure if a more reliable source can be found and if the source credibly documents the nature of the figure (e.g., estimated number of active attendees). Those may be big if's, though. Richwales (talk · contribs) 03:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Young's polygamy

I recently saw this sentence removed, then restored:

“ According to LDS Church records, Young was "sealed" to as many as 56 women, far more than the estimated 32 brides sealed to Joseph Smith during his rule. ”

I had mixed feelings about both actions. But if we keep it, we need to fix a few issues:

1. We don't describe, at all, what the scare-quoted "sealed" is supposed to mean.
2. "according to LDS Church records...as many as" - why are we citing church records, which should provide a solid number, and then invoking the speculative phrase "as many as"? Also, if we cite church records, we should cite church records. The provided ref is [See Tullidge, Edward, History of Salt Lake City, 132-35 (Original from the University of Michigan, 1886).]
3. "far more" - what's the point of this editorialization?
4. "during his rule" - ambiguous, but dripping with POV regardless of whether it is referring to Smith or to Young

I do feel it important to mention Young's polygamy here, but this sentence fails on so many levels. If nobody else does, I'll try my hand a little later at rewriting this atrocity. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Roughly, what is needed seems to be this:

• the military was coming because LDS were practicing polygamy
• Young was married to up to at least N women (note "married", not "sealed", no explanation really necessary). This is worth mentioning because of the first point (why the military was coming).

Right? In that case, it would be nice to cite something removed from the primary source (LDS records). tedder (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

It would be more scholarly to use the conservative phrase "at least N" (minimum), rather than the speculative "up to N" (maximum). The numbers for each phrase would be different, of course. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

You're right. Or "there were at least N documented", but that's bordering POV, because it basically states "but there were inevitably more". I'm not a great wordsmith; I'm more concerned that the main points are hit. tedder (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)