User talk:Elonka

Troubles discretionary sanctions II

Hi Elonka. I thought your Troubles discretionary sanctions proposal was quite good, and needed to avoid Troubles II. So I've asked at User_talk:Seraphimblade#Troubles whether the community might re-continue that discussion (somewhere?). It probably isnt an "incident" any longer, but the next incident is likely just around the corner. I've also asked for thoughts from Sarah[1]. If you cant find community support, please bring it to arbcom to consider. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 04:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. --Elonka 05:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Per your suggestion, I have filed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment#Request to amend prior case: The Troubles. --Elonka 04:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Troubles related

How is any article, once determined by an admin. as 'Troubles related', to be de-listed? The particular article I have in mind is Irish Bulletin. The disruptive editor has been banned. How long more is 1 revert per 24 hrs. supposed to apply to everyone editing on this page? RashersTierney (talk) 20:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

There's no de-listing, it's just permanent. Per community consensus, all Troubles-related articles are under 1RR. However, the restriction does not apply when reverting vandalism, or reverting edits made by anonymous IPs. --Elonka 21:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you think that is reasonable and sustainable? RashersTierney (talk) 21:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The community consensus for it in October 2008 was quite strong,[2] so yes. --Elonka 21:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I've edited here for some time now on many Ireland-related articles. I've never come across this restriction before, or if I did, just moved on because the editing rather than the topic was inflammatory. 'Troubles-related' might sometimes just be a hammer to crack some nuts. Or it might just be nuts. RashersTierney (talk) 22:09, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I've deleted the stark warning at Irish Bulletin. Please don't reapply an unnecessary restriction. RashersTierney (talk) 00:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not the template is there, is irrelevant. The 1RR restriction is still in effect. --Elonka 00:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, it should not be. RashersTierney (talk) 00:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

• Support the firm but fair line you are taking. --John (talk) 07:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The firm but fair line who is taking? RashersTierney (talk) 07:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Elonka, whose talk page this is. --John (talk) 07:44, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

What possible benefit to the project is that restriction having at Irish Bulletin? RashersTierney (talk) 07:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

It's keeping nationalists (of either stripe) from ruining the article, which in my view is a good thing. --John (talk) 08:00, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Based on what evidence exactly do you come to that conclusion? There was only ever one problematic editor there, who has since been banned as a sock (and the restriction had no bearing on his/her 'outing'). The 1 revert restriction and the intimidating warning are unnecessary and potentially discouraging positive contributions. RashersTierney (talk) 08:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how it is keeping British Nationalism in check; except in relation to a number of Irish articles. Perhaps we should explore the problem of British nationalism more widely - I see it all over British articles, like a plague. Even in the title of some roads articles. As British Nationalism is a vastly greater problem, far greater than any other nationalism bar American Nationalism I am concerned that the Elephants in the room are being ignored while minor problems like alleged Irish or Balkan nationalism attracts all the draconian action. Something very rotten in the state of Wiki? Sarah777 (talk) 09:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sarah. If you haven't already seen it, you might be interested in this page. --John (talk) 15:54, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Ta John. I've not only seen that page I've nearly memorised it :) Sarah777 (talk) 19:13, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Irish Bulletin

Classic example of how clampdowns can degenerate into intimidation (as viewed by non-Admins). Where is the edit-warring that merits 1RR in this article? Was it the mere presence of Domer? If I decide to edit English historical articles will we have 1RR tags slapped on them just 'cos of my presence? If you can promise me that I'll get cracking straight away, starting with the Battle of Hastings and working my way up to the war in Afghanistan. Sarah777 (talk) 09:52, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

And if we go by the definition of "troubles-related" supplied by Angus then Irish Bulletin does not come under the Arbcom ruling at all. So any block based on an imagined Arbcom sanction would be a bad block which would mean the blocker would no longer be suitable to be involved in "troubles-related" articles. Sarah777 (talk) 10:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Elonka, you did an excellent job in identifying and stopping the 'gaming' IP at this article, and perhaps I should have thanked you for your extensive efforts before this, but I was always perplexed at the tagging of this article as 'Troubles-related'. My reservations on extending Admin. powers in this area are not due in any way to doubts about your good intentions or integrity. Just thought you should know. RashersTierney (talk) 13:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Picture request

Sorry, I don't...I'm based in London, England and took the photo on a visit to New York in February. However, there are staff based in the office in the cemetery itself who are quite helpful and they may be able to help you. Jack1956 (talk) 21:29, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Admins noticeboard

Just to let you know i have made a post on the Admins noticeboard about the BNP being considered an articles related to the troubles here. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Thumbs up

I commend ya, Elonka, on your cool headedness. Those Troubles articles are really a headache, at times; doubly so for administrators. GoodDay (talk) 19:36, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Placing British National Party under 1RR

Sorry Elonka, no way is British National Party a Troubles, or even really an Irish-British relations, related article, warranting this. If the issue you are seeing is bad behaviour on that article between editors who are otherwise associated with editting Troubles related articles, that is an entirely different matter. Please don't embolden those who wish to discredit the entire system [3] with decisions like this, which will only catch people out who have likely never edited a Troubls related article their lives, or worse, will be improperly abused to win content disputes utterly unrelated to anything about the Troubles, such as the current dispute on the article. MickMacNee (talk) 20:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

My attention was drawn to the article because of the recent edit-warring, which appeared to be an overflow dispute with involved editors who routinely edit Troubles-related articles. The article also falls within the proper scope. Per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles, and the subsequent community amendment in October 2008, the scope of the case is defined as, "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related." The article British National Party is clearly within that scope. Just search for the term "Ireland" in the article and read about the Party's policies. --Elonka 20:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

As I said, it is an entirely different matter if you think Troubles editors are spilling disputes to other articles, especially if they aren't even disputing content related to the Troubles - the problem in that case is the editors, not the article, and as you know being an admin, there are ways and means to deal with that without tagging articles as Troubles related when they aren't - which comes to the second point, it is imo quite wrong to consider BNP a Troubles related article based on tiny amount of references to it in the article, on that basis, the amount of related articles would number in the thousands, for a start covering every British political party article. The BNP's brand of British nationalism really has nothing to do with Ireland at all. MickMacNee (talk) 20:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I must take the unusual step of agreeing with Elonka here. This is clearly at least as related to the "troubles" as the Kilmichael Ambush. Perhaps we are now getting a badly needed clamp down on the scourge of British Nationalism on Wiki? Not something even MickMac could argue with. Sarah777 (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Atleast that is related to the IRA despite being before the troubles. The British National party has nothing to do with the Troubles. If the fact it has a policy on Northern Ireland means its related to the troubles then EVERY article on wikipedia about Ireland, the UK and their political parties need placing on restrictions too. What a crazy development. This is hardly a clamp down on British nationalism Sarah, the restrictions have been imposed following people supporting or defending the BNP making silly accusations not those who oppose it. So its quite the opposite. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I trust Elonka to see how nonsensical your comparison of the BNP with the Kilmichael Ambush is, and thus, how credible the rest of your opinions are on what is and is not wrong with the Wiki. MickMacNee (talk) 20:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with MickMacnee's first post on this. The BNP issue is not a "Troubles-related" issue - it is an issue that involves many of the same editors, simply because they are editors who are involved on Britain/UK-related political issues as a whole. What seems to have happened here is that one of the editors in dispute seems to have claimed - initially almost as a joke here, here and here - that it is a Troubles-related" issue, specifically in order to get a 1RR restriction placed on the article. The fact that the BNP has policies relating to Ireland is, frankly, irrelevant - not all British/UK political issues should be defined as "Troubles-related". Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:57, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The notion that the BNP's Unionist anti-Irish policies are unrelated to "the troubles" while Kilmicheal is just goes to demonstrate how deep the cancer of British Nationalism goes on Wiki. Sarah777 (talk) 21:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

But the BNP's anti-Irish policies are not the subject of the dispute on that page, which relates to whether it should still be called a "whites-only" party. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

That editor was being a dick with his ridiculous comments and has a major case of ownership on the article, I for one have made edits to the BNP article before they had even created an account. BigDunc 21:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

As before, I trust Elonka to see these statements for what they are, suffice to say the BNP policy on Ireland is actually apparently based on a goal of establishing an equal federation of independent states. If this is anti-Irish and an embodiment of Troubles brand Unionism, then I am afraid we will have to declare all EU articles as Troubles related aswell. MickMacNee (talk) 21:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the others who said this clearly isn't a "Troubles" related article. This party defines its main politics in relation to opposing non-European immigration, communism, Islamism, globalism and free market capitalism. If this is a "Troubles related article", then so is every single article in the British Isles. This party doesn't have "anti-Irish" anything as its core politics, in fact the opposite. - Yorkshirian (talk) 23:53, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I think I see the confusion here. If I'm understanding the concerns correctly, it's that some of you feel that the Troubles ArbCom case should only apply to Troubles-related articles. However, the case's scope has been expanded since its inception in 2007. For an example of how this works, see WP:DIGWUREN. The scope of that case was written to cover all Eastern Europe conflicts, regardless if they had anything to do with the editor Digwuren or not. So the name of the Troubles case should not be used to limit its scope, because in October 2008, the case's scope was expanded to include, "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland." So such an article within the new scope might or might not specifically refer to the period of time referred to as The Troubles, but that's not the point. The actual scope of the case now is British/Irish nationalism, whether the case name be "Troubles", "France", "XYZ", or "Chinese pottery". Ultimately, the main point here is to reduce edit-warring in a topic area which has been subject to a great deal of conflict. If articles are not being warred over, then the case won't be an issue. In fact, how's this: If an article is relatively stable for at least 30 days, meaning that established editors are no longer reverting each other, then it would be reasonable to remove the template from the article's talkpage. Would that address concerns? --Elonka 01:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

A straightforward mechanism for removing the restrictions after problematic editing has stopped would certainly resolve one of my main concerns. I still think the definition above is extremely broad and needs to be applied with the greatest restraint. This tag is not a panacea and carries intrinsic difficulties. RashersTierney (talk) 01:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It does not address problems that arise when an article which contains references to both Britain and Ireland, in whatever context, is subject to edit warring for reasons which have nothing at all to do with those references. In my view the BNP article falls into that category - the edit warring was about the party's racist membership criteria, not about its policies in relation to Ireland. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It is an enormous leap to say that the BNP falls under the topic "British nationalism in relation to Ireland" just because the article has once sentence about a policy on Ireland. This was a simple case of a run of the mill content dispute which had nothing to do with Ireland, spilling over into edit warring. You have more than enough tools at your disposal to deal with this normally, without making it appear that the Troubles case now has virtually limitless boundaries, with the subsequent chilling effect. MickMacNee (talk) 13:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

As an involved editor I have to agree, this has nothing to do with Ireland, but is (ans was) a back dorr atrempt at imposing a 1RR rule.Slatersteven (talk) 14:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

If multiple involved editors feel that 1RR is cramping their style, and that they need to be able to revert each other multiple times per day, that's a pretty clear example of a problem, don't you think? Revert is not supposed to be used as an editing tool, it's supposed to be used to get rid of obvious vandalism. Reverting is completely ineffective as a way to ensure longterm stable changes to an article. The proper way to proceed is to go through Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, discuss the dispute in a civil and collegial matter, and end up with an article that reflects consensus. This culture of "we have to revert each other every day" is not acceptable. --Elonka 15:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that edited warring is wrong, yes. Bu I also would say that there is an edited waring procedure that we can follow, and that can result in a page being given a 1RR restriction. But this is not the way it should have been done. irt looks to be like a clear case of playing the system.Slatersteven (talk) 15:27, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Who here said reverting is OK? That was not the issue at all. The issue is, and still is, how is it appropriate to place a restriction created to deal with disputes in the topic areas of British and Irish relations, on an article which has nothing to do with British-Irish relations, to stop edit warring in a dispute that had nothing to do with British-Irish relations? MickMacNee (talk) 17:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the issue, it is clearly an involved issue and is being edited by a group of editors that are involved in editing the troubles articles. Off2riorob (talk) 17:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I have never heard such nonsense. If a bunch of us went over and edited an article on perhaps Fish would you class that as troubles related? This really is pathetic and i cant believe it has gone on for a second day. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, if it is or could be associated to the troubles and uk nationalism then it is fine to template it, as editors are restricted at one article they will naturally look for other outlets for their position, as regards a bunch of you doing this and that, please take care to not get involved in WP:TAGTEAM issues. Off2riorob (talk) 18:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I have to partialy disagree with you. [[Fish] would have no connection to the Irish trouble, wereas the BNP have a policy on it. And if that was what the edit war was about there mightm be a reason for this 1RR restriction, its not (and as far as I an tell the BNP policy of Oiland has never been questioned on the page). It seems that the fact that a bunch of you (a shamrock of Irish?) are also editing a page that has a tenuous link to Ireland is being used to enforce a 1RR restriction in wholey inapropriate circumstances.Slatersteven (talk) 18:09, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Was this Fish meant perhaps? That's actually a good example of something you could, if you really tried hard, tag as a Troubles-related article, on account of some typically overwrought lyrical content in one song out of hundreds. Anyway, the BNP page is clearly not a Troubles-related article per se, and the specific issue in question on there is nothing to do with Ireland. Really bad decision and should be reversed - whatever the problems are on that page, please try to deal with them in another way, rather than by spuriously bringing the article under the umbrella of a wholly unrelated sanctions regime. --Nickhh (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Is this a troubles related photo?

In the absence of anyone seeming to agree with your unilateral decision to brand the BNP page a "Troubles-related article", could you please remove the tag and the restriction, until you get at least something resembling consensus for this rather strange and illogical decision? As you know, you have made a formal request for the expansion of the scope of the original Troubles decision so that it includes anything to do with British or Irish nationalism, and to increase the range of sanctions available to admins under that decision - could you at least wait until some kind of agreement emerges there before taking arbitrary and controversial actions of this sort on an unrelated article, rather than simply ignoring what everyone else is saying, on your talk page and elsewhere? Not really a shining example of how to go about improving collaboration and adherence to process here now, is it? Thank you. --Nickhh (talk) 21:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

If the article can remain stable for a period of time, such as 30 days without established editors reverting each other, I would have no objection to removing the template. --Elonka 22:40, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me Nickhh; "In the absence of anyone seeming to agree with your unilateral decision to brand the BNP page a "Troubles-related article". I wholeheartedly agree with Elonkathat the anti-Irish BNP is troubles related. (The fact that it is a racist xenophobic party which detests any foreigners is neither here nor there). I think the "mission creep" of "troubles" related articles to include Irish articles unrelated to the troubles (eg Kilmichael Ambush) is a disaster for Wiki in this area and I utterly oppose Elonka on her simplistic draconian proposals related to expanding the already excessive powers of random Admins. But identifying BNP as troubles related is spot on. Sarah777 (talk) 22:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake if we are applying these restrictions to any article that even mentions Ireland it should only happen when edit warring is over something in that article related to Ireland which has certainly not been the case, i dont think Ireland has been been seriously debated on the talk page of the BNP article ever. The edit warring was over the BNP being a far right whites only racist political party. This has nothing to do with Ireland. One editor was sticking up for the BNP, he then claimed the dispute was troubles related and now we have 1RR restrictions stopping us from getting on with sorting out the article. its just wrong and we should not have to wait 30 days to have an incorrect label of it being "troubles related" removed. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

A feature of the "British right" is that they have racist anti-Irish views. Remember all those cartoons in Punch depicting the Irish as apes during the Great Genocide? Sarah777 (talk) 23:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

To Elonka: But the point being raised is not whether the article is stable or not (loads of pages aren't), but whether it is a Troubles related article. It isn't. You're still not addressing that point, unsurprisingly perhaps. Apologies for not spotting (as above) that there was one person who does agree with your interpretation, but no one else does. If you want to slap a template on it saying "this article is not stable", go ahead, but please take off the one it has. I'm only bothered by this because it seems such an obvious and rather silly-looking error, which you seem unwilling to admit or address. And Sarah, I have no doubt the BNP hate the Irish along with plenty of other people, but even that doesn't negate the point that the BNP page - and especially the specific debate underway there - has nothing to do with the Troubles.--Nickhh (talk) 00:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be The Troubles-related to be within the scope of the case. See my above post from 01:25. --Elonka 00:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The doubt is that the dispute is not about "any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland.", but about the fact it is being used in circumstances were there are other (and more appropriate) avenues to follow in dispute resolution. That it has been used in a dispute that has nothing to do with "The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland.". The page may have some link to hte troubles, but ther has never been any dispute over that section of the articel, this is a wholey mis-applied restriction.Slatersteven (talk) 14:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes Elonka, I read your post. I'm also aware of the scope of the case. As noted just above, it talks about "British nationalism in relation to Ireland" [my italics]. Lack of comprehension is one thing, but pithy brush-offs and a stubborn and repeated "talk to the hand" when people point out the problem is another thing, especially when it comes combined with an assumption of the right to start imposing control and restrictions over other editors. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, not a kindergarten where you are in charge and can just invent rules unilaterally as you go along. If there is a problem on the BNP page, find another route to deal with it. Seriously. I'll open an RfC on this or go to AN/ANI if you don't remove that template. I have never edited any Troubles article, nor the BNP page, and have no wish to start doing so - however, I find it quite irksome when people wander round this place thinking they WP:OWN parts of it, all the more so when they are utterly and completely wrong about something, and everyone else is pointing that out to them. --Nickhh (talk) 14:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Nickhh i know how you feel, i made a post on the admins noticeboard hereabout this matter shortly after the BNP article suddenly became troubles related but i got no help at all basically being told to get lost and the thing was put in an archive box very quickly so no further comments could be made about it.

The comment by Elonka that "It doesn't have to be The Troubles-related to be within the scope of the case." clearly highlights the problem. It SHOULD be troubles related to have the troubles restrictions applied to it. That is the whole point we are here disagreeing with lol. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but Nick doesn't seem to have ever edited the bnp article or the talkpage for that matter, I fail to see why he is continuing to comment here regarding an article he has never edited? Also what is the point of all this squealing? What is the the big issue, there has been editing causing issues at the bnp article by multiple editors involved in the editing issues surrounding the troubles articles, so .. as elonka said, if the article is stable for a few weeks she will consider removing the restriction, move on, also please attempt to show good faith to Elonka's contributions, as jericoman said if you have an issue with this decision take it to arbcom for looking at, if not forget about it. Off2riorob (talk) 15:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

You're not wrong, that's precisely the point - I'm completely uninvolved, but can see where one admin has made a rather confused decision. As I keep saying, if there are problems on the BNP page, look to another solution. What next - if a dispute breaks out on the Ally McCoist page as to how many goals he scored for Rangers, do both those articles get tagged as "Troubles-related", and the dispute in question become managed under the relevant sanctions? The Conservative party has far more links to Northern Ireland - and since it has been in government its policies have had far more impact there - but are we seriously suggesting that an edit war there about PPC selection procedures in Norfolk should be dealt with under the Troubles decision? Come off it. There are principles of logic and fairness at stake here, without wishing to sound too pretentious about it all. Otherwise we may as well all give up and hand over arbitrary power to admins and ArbCom. --Nickhh (talk) 15:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that is the only answer. this seems to be a case of an ed playing the system to achive an aim that seems unrelated to the outcome.Slatersteven (talk) 16:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

@Nickhh, though you may be uninvolved in terms of editing in this topic area, you're definitely not uninvolved in regards to me. --Elonka 18:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Re: Civility

I have stricken my last comment. I hope that is sufficient. Thanks for your note. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The time maybe coming, to stricken Irvine22 from all those 'Troubles articles'. GoodDay (talk) 16:44, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Per this and subsequent to the conversation we had on his talk yesterday, I am inclined to agree with GoodDay on this matter. --John (talk) 21:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Could you please explain more? From an outsider's perspective, that seems to be a normal comment about content. If there's something particularly inflammatory about it though, could you please spell it out for me? (preferably in a brief comment, with a link to a source or two). Thanks, --Elonka 21:51, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Its not outrageously inflammatory, but it is provocative (and I would say, knowingly so). The reason the decommissioning of arms was such a long, convoluted process is that both sides were very much interested in claiming the settlement was a victory towards achieving their respective goals. Suggesting that decommissioning was "imposed upon [the IRA] by unionism and the British and Irish governments" is to imply that the IRA lost their "war" and was forced to give up arms. This is consistent with the "No surrender" rhetoric of the Loyalist faction. In contrast, the IRA (and those of a Republican persuasion) will claim the IRA chose to decommission only after getting the concessions they demanded and therefore the British lost their battle against the IRA.

In short, that comment is just one of many persistent sly comments aimed at purposefully riling those who are familiar with the subject. It serves zero purpose towards improving the article and appears aimed at stoking disputes. Rockpocket 22:14, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Its also a part of a persistent pattern. Irvine has taken a position that the PIRA failed in its mission - an strong, possibly extreme unionist position. At one stage he was blocked for persistently edit waring over this. His comment above was yet another in that sequence and given his knowledge of the historical contact it was deliberately designed to provoke. We see a similar behaviour over attempts to try and make any Irish Republican English or Scottish in ancestry. What we have here is a persistent series of edits around a strong POV accompanied by provocative statements on the talk pages in the the edit summaries. A ban results in a temporary peace before he returns to more of the same. To someone without knowledge of the history it may seem innocent, but it isn't. We see the same pattern now shifting to Scotland, where s/he has taken a strong unionist to say that the United Kingdom's national anthem is the Scottish National anthem, Something not supported by citation and again knowingly aimed a provoking scottish editors (see the edit summaries). A study of his/her edits over a period of time (and the various blocks that have gone with that, not to mention the use of IPs and the one sock that we know of gives you a bigger picture here. --Snowded ^TALK 01:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Snowded, you seem to have joined Rockpocket in characterizing my "position" as "Unionist". I have certainly never characterized myself in that way on Wikipedia, and indeed I would not. If you and Rockpocket choose to impute that position to me, and maintain that such a position is somehow provocative, that says more about your POV than mine. (And BTW the notion that PIRA "failed in its mission" may just as well be a traditional Republican position, taken by Anthony McIntyre, Bernadette Sands-McKevitt, Dolours Price and other such luminaries.) Irvine22 (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

You self declared on your own page, and in various talk page conversations. Remember Chocolate Orange when you were accusing another editor of using racist language? Sorry Irvine I don't buy the protestation, its more wikilawyer/gaming etc, etc. I am weary of it. --Snowded ^TALK 02:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the other editor to whom you refer will appreciate you raising that matter. Suffice it to say that I have agreed to move past that, and have been working constructively, on and off, with the other editor since. It is pretty telling, though, that not one of you - John, GoodDay, Rockpocket, RepublicanJacobite, Snowded - can point to a single instance of incivility on my part, or indeed provide diffs for these supposed "provocative" edits and summaries.Irvine22 (talk) 05:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Seems to me that, having identified a gap in the article's coverage of the decommissioning issue, I offered what you (Rockpocket) termed a perfectly good stab at a paragraph to plug the gap. Rather than engage constructively on that basis, certain other editors prefered to perpetuate personal conflict, tag team gaming and incivility directed towards myself. That is unfortunate, and I have not responded in kind, nor will I. I do however refute the suggestion that my contributions are anything other than content-focused good faith attempts to improve the article, and I regard your above characterization of my edits to be tendentious and unsubstantiated. Irvine22 (talk) 00:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Irvine, did you ever hear of the concept of getting it "right first time"? Eleven edits on Elonka's page to produce such a mouse - I mean, really! Sarah777 (talk) 02:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Exactly so, which is why I responded by saying "Rubbish". The subsequent exchange may not have been helpful, and I will admit I should not have risen to his provocation, but his pattern of POV-pushing, provocations, and incivility invited my response. That response, as you know, was stricken, at your request, by me. And yet he continues his pattern, making reference to the civility policy as if he has ever shown any indication of having read it. How long must his actions and his attitude be tolerated? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:44, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

RJ, could you provide diffs of examples of my supposed "incivility"? Thanks in advance. Irvine22 (talk) 00:31, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) RJ, fair question, let me try and give you a thorough answer. There are a few key things to keep in mind:

• First: Venue. There are proper places to raise concerns about a user's conduct. But an article talkpage is not one of them. So when on an article talkpage, it's important to keep comments focused on the article. If someone says something absurd, there is no need to respond. Just swim away, unless it looks like the idea is getting traction, in which case a simple calm comment to show that you disagree, may be all that's needed. If someone's conduct is genuinely a concern though, bring it up in a the correct venue: An administrator's talkpage, or at one of the dispute resolution noticeboards, or at an administrator noticeboard, or file a User Conduct RfC.
• Second: Civility. If someone is being disruptive, it's never appropriate to just tell them that they're being an idiot. Because as soon as someone resorts to incivility, it weakens their argument.
• Third: Reduce the noise level, which will help administrators to do their job. When an uninvolved administrator arrives on the scene, they usually have no clue of the backstory, of who the "troublemakers" are, who are the good faith editors, etc. When the first thing an admin sees is two people calling each other names, to an outside admin, both those editors look equally at fault. The admin generally doesn't care who started it. So whenever possible, take the high road, so that editors with problematic behavior are more likely to stand out against the quiet.
• Fourth: Watch your contribs. One trick I use to tell who the constructive editors are, is to look at everyone's contrib history. What I'll usually see is a few editors who have a solid history of actually working on multiple articles and making well-sourced additions, a few editors who have a lock on a very small subset of articles where they spend the majority of their time, and a few who are just bouncing from talkpage to talkpage, engaging in dispute after dispute, but rarely ever actually building the encyclopedia. So what this may tell me is that if I ban or block the dispute-junkies, no one's really going to miss them, since they weren't doing anything constructive anyway.  ;) However, I also try to keep in mind that if there's a troll in there stirring the pot, the troll may be goading the normally good editors to a state of incoherent rage. So I look at other things than just contribs. But still, it's an important marker.

So my advice (to everyone) is: Don't take the bait. Keep your cool, keep on making solid well-sourced edits to multiple articles. If you have concerns about an editor's behavior, don't express them on an article talkpage, take them to another more appropriate venue, and then express those concerns in a civil way. If you're in a dispute on one or more articles, try to spend at least half your wiki-time working on other things too. It will help improve your contrib list, and it's also a wonderful way to lower your stress level, working on articles where you don't have to worry about being reverted every other edit. Plus, if you do all these things, it'll lower the noise level, and make it much easier for administrators to spot (and deal with) the genuinely disruptive editors. --Elonka 01:03, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Good advice. Irvine22 (talk) 01:08, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Okie Dokie. GoodDay (talk) 16:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi..

I've updated my post on RfArb/A with a third option, and replied on my talk page. I'm just trying to avoid a crazy patchwork quilt of differing sanctions and restrictions, but keeping the community sanctions long term or modifying them to be streamlined like the discretionary sanctions are certainly an option. SirFozzie (talk) 00:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

1RR Claim

Would you have a quick look at the BNP article? Myself and SlaterSteven have gone backwards and forwards this morning getting to an agreed text in the lede and are now both been accused of breaking the 1RR restriction by Off2RioRob. My understanding is that what we have done is what you have been trying to encourage. If I'm wrong please advise. --Snowded ^TALK 16:31, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I am surprised that you are claiming at this stage of your wiki career not to know what a revert is, the talk page is the place to discuss content and agree on an edit, not the edit summary box. Off2riorob (talk) 16:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll let the edits stand for themselves. Its been a progression of different edits (without any bad feeling) leading to what looks like a consensus. Either way, I don't think it breaks 1RR you do, I've asked for advice which seems reasonable. What is the problem with that? --Snowded ^TALK 16:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

As I said the talkpage is for discussion not the edit summary box, the article is under a one revert condition, you are wrong if you think you have produced anything sustainable or anything with any consensus, it was simply you and stephen reverting each other, I had no chance to join in any discussion as it was not being done on the talkpage it was being done in the edit summary box, to let you know, if your bothered, I disagree with both your positions. Off2riorob (talk) 17:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Its clear the classification of the article as a troubles related article is not helping to improve the article simply getting in the way of people making goood progress and changes. British National Party should be delisted as a troubles related article right away. Where do i nominate it for a review? We should not have to wait 30 days before this mistake is corrected. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Jericoman clearly told you to take it to arbcom if you want a review. Off2riorob (talk) 17:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The enforcement page hardly seems the correct location to take this matter. I am not asking for enforcement on a user or an article. I want a mistake corrected. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

@Snowded: I took a quick look, and didn't see anything that looked like a 1RR violation. Instead, the edits seem to be progressing in a healthy way, with each editor trying to build on the edits of the last. That's an excellent healthy way to edit.  :) If I could make one suggestion though, it would be to avoid putting sources directly in the lead (lede?) of the article. The lead should only be a summary of what's already in the main body of the article, so if there's a source in the lead, that's often a sign that the information it's sourcing is only in the lead, which is not how things should work. It's also a problem then if someone removes that sentence, because it looks like they're deleting a reliable source from an article (which is frowned upon). So instead, it's better to put the actual full sources in the body of the article, and then just use a tag in the lead. For example, if linking to cnn.com, the full source in the body of the article might be: <ref name=cnn>http://www.cnn.com/127897.html</ref>, and then in the lead, the ref could just be: <ref name=cnn/> That way the lead would still have the little footnote superscripts, but if someone removes them, they're not deleting an entire source, they're just deleting the reference to the source. Sorry if that's confusing, let me know if you'd like another example? --Elonka 17:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Elonka, a helpful response and I had forgotten the references in the lede issue, I appreciate the reminder. --Snowded ^TALK 18:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, a revert is a revert, discussion should be on the talkpage and not the edit summary, could you please clarify then elonka exactly what is defined here as a revert? Off2riorob (talk) 18:01, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, could you please provide a link to policy to support your position. Off2riorob (talk) 18:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Are you asserting that ..two editors reverting each other without discussion on the talkpage, using the edit summary box for communication and without input from any other edits who may be watching mesmerized unable to join in, if other editors join in reverting also, in a friendly way, is that totally acceptable, a good way to edit? I would ask you to please clarify the position here with a link to policy, Off2riorob (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I am asserting that if editors are working on the article where they are trying to find a compromise, each making tweaks to the edits of the last, that does not count as a "revert" in my book. I see a revert as when one editor makes one or more changes, and then another editor comes along and clicks "rollback" or "undo" or something, and just does a clean wipe of everything that the previous editor did. That's an obvious revert, and is not helpful towards finding a compromise. But two or more editors "circling in" towards something that they find mutually agreeable, that's fine. In an ideal situation, they'll keep tweaking and tweaking, until everyone is more or less equally happy (or unhappy) with the text, and tah dah! That's consensus.  :) --Elonka 18:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed BritishWatcher (talk) 18:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments but as I said a revert is a revert and the article is on a 1RR, please...provide a link to where this is in guidelines about reverting, you are saying that I could have joined in with this tweaking and my tweaks would not be reverts? Is there a guideline that talks about this being ok? I ask only in the desire to understand policy, not one persons view but the guideline. Off2riorob (talk) 18:29, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Tweaks are not reverts, as long as they're good faith attempts at compromise, and are not "tweaking" the article back to an identical state of what it was in recent history. The goal is to find a different way of wording something, that may be agreeable to everyone, and then being open to the possibility that others may then tweak your wording, again in an attempt at finding a compromise. As for policy, see Wikipedia:Consensus. --Elonka 18:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

If the status quo is Chair & somebody changes it to Rocking Chair & you change it to Lawn Chair, it's not a revert. GoodDay (talk) 18:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Though the next question after that would be: "Does the source on that sentence use the terminology of both 'Rocking Chair' and 'Lawn Chair'?" Because if not, whoever changed the text to say something not in accordance with the source, may get in trouble for different reasons. --Elonka 18:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. GoodDay (talk) 18:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well excuse me if I have been wrong, I thought that a revert was any alteration of a good faith edit. I will join in with this tweaking, I can't wait. Tweak tweak. Off2riorob (talk) 18:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

question

Could you please explain what troubles related edits have led to your 1RR measure? Verbal chat 17:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I see there is a related thread above, but you haven't provided an answer that I could see. Could you please explain, Elonka? Verbal chat 18:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Elonka has said "It doesn't have to be The Troubles-related to be within the scope of the case." [4]

It looks as though restrictions can be imposed on any article that mentions Ireland or where certain editors involved in the troubles go. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I would still like to hear Elonka's answer, as I find that unsatisfactory. All British, and several American political parties, amongst others, could also be placed under this case when the problem edits have nothing to do with the troubles. And it wouldn't stop at those articles. This is a problem, and seems to be a case of having a hammer making all problems look like nails. However, I don't want to jump to conclusions so I would like to hear Elonka give her reasoning - or are all political parties under 1RR per week and I didn't know? Please let Elonka answer, as admins should respond to reasonable queries about their admin actions. Verbal chat 21:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

See my above post from 01:25. --Elonka 21:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Citations

Yes, thanks, I have moved them to the talkpage to offer them to anyone who should want to use them for additional additions, in future I will leave them in the article, I dislike citation farms and don't think that we should be a link station for newspapers and so on, thanks for your fair comments. Off2riorob (talk) 20:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)