Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 June 26: Difference between revisions

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26 June 2007

jaxtr

now have a better understanding of necessity to reference everything in posting, would like to have the opportunity to create a new page from scratch which is strictly informational, not advertising Comet111 21:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can I suggest that you create a new version in your userspace first and then bring it for us to review. We can unprotect the page if we agree that the new article meets WP:SOFTWARE, WP:WEB and WP:RS? Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations on finding deletion review with your very first edit. What happened to the editor who created the article, they don't seem ever to have contributed anything else to the project. Guy (Help!) 06:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comet111 indicated in an e-mail to me that she is the same person as the editor who created jaxtr in the first place (that is, her name matches that account). Chick Bowen 00:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Friendbot

This should be undeleted, as it now sites its sources. James3uk 19:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion, speedy close The "sources" are really just a link to the Friendbot website. LOL teh funnay. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not recreate deleted material before you have had the AFD overturned. Especially one still warm. I have redeleted the articled and protected it against recreation. Please take the time to read WP:WEB and WP:RS. Self referencing links are not sources under our definition. Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've been going back and forth with the author of this page, so I'll not bother to vote. However I want to note that immediately after the AfD deleted it he recreated the page three times as it was speedied for reposting. He also accused me of "a very horrible, nasty and vulgar warning message" for leaving this comment on his userpage after (I believe) the third recreation. He also posted a link to the friendbot website and/or the friendbot article to five other articles. Improbcat 15:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse and suggest coming here again if it becomes well-known enough to have references from other sources. DGG 18:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Powerspace

deleted six times and protected in January 2007. The band is now releasing an album on notable label Fueled by Ramen, and has a respectable Allmusic entry. Note also article regarding nationwide tour. Would like to have the article Unsalted because band has enough press to establish notability. Chubbles 18:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional Unsalt if a well-referenced version is created in userspace. Certainly getting on Fueled by Ramen is a great leap forward as far as notability goes, but it still takes 2 albums to pass WP:MUSIC. I think a good article should be possible at this point, but given the article's history some care is warrented. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal Cubbles. You are going to get some resistance I suspect because of the lack of something to show as a alternative to show the band's new status (like the "conditional" opinion of Starblind). I propose that you have the most recent version of the deleted page userfied to you so that you can do this work, updating their status and given sources for the changes. In general showing in a version of the article exactly why you think they are now notable. You then withdrawn this DRV as premature and, when you have the article version in your user space at a point where you think it will stand WP:BAND scutiny, you resubmit for DRV at that point. Does that sound workable, Chubbles? - TexasAndroid 19:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that works. The album comes out in a couple of weeks, I can come back then. I would like to know if there was any information worth salvaging in the deleted versions. Chubbles 23:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See User:Chubbles1212/Powerspace for the last version prior to deletion. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chubbles appears to have contributed a at least one FA and to a couple of GAs. That's enough for me to trust him. Unsalt and allow recreation. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note that WP:MUSIC calls for two albums. Corvus cornix 23:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Notability is to be established through national tour supported by press sources. Chubbles 23:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted for now: this is still slightly premature IMO, as the tour is still in-progress, and touring may be the most controversial criterion in WP:BAND in any case; especially a tour as a supporting act. No objection to userfying for Chubbles to work on in the mean time, though, since it does look like it's starting to be a borderline case, and Chubbles is clearly an experienced enough editor to handle the challenge. Xtifr _tälk 05:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

InspIRCd (closed)

Category:Australian soccer players

Category:Australian football (soccer) players was renamed yesterday. This action happened without any imput from the Australian football community on wikipedia. I am requesting this decision be reversed. Players, fans, clubs and parts of the media refer to the sport as Football. User:Shalom started the process and he has said here :

I'm sorry that I failed to get the word out regarding the CFD. I don't do many CFDs, so I'm not familiar with the need to tell everyone. My main line of work is AFD, where this is generally not necessary because users who care about an article will usually see it on their watchlist. I have no opinion on the debate anymore. Feel free to decide things without me. Best regards. Shalom ^Hello 05:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tancred 11:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - This is also currently nominated for renaming at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 26. I suggest closing the WP:CFD discussion and simply redirecting all debate to this page instead. Dr. Submillimeter 11:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Closed as a procedural speedy keep, sent everyone over here. Daniel 11:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relist. Although I suspect that many people will say 'CfD valid, endorse move', and I would normally be one of them, I must protest on this occasion. Wikipedia has come to the compromise to call the sport Football (soccer) in countries where 'soccer' is used as an alternative (ie. Australia, USA, etc.). The comment that 'everyone in Australia calls it Soccer' is just wrong, because a) I don't (and make a point of not doing so), and b) the Football Federation Australia (main governing body) uses 'Football', the national league (A-League) uses 'football', including in their motto 'It's football, but not as you know it' (see also here), and Wikipedia's naming conventions on Australian football/soccer topics is to use 'football (soccer)'. I wasn't aware of this debate, and wouldn't have even known about this DRV if I hadn't have followed a link to a DRV above this from Riana's talk page, and I ask that the move be reversed and the CfD reopened. There's six years of site-wide consensus which is being over-ruled here. I won't say that the category should be at 'Australian football players', because I acknowledge that there are half the population who call it 'Soccer', but I ask that the other half be respected, as they have been on Wikipedia through this long-standing compromise, and that it be called 'Football (soccer) players'. Daniel 11:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
[Relist] Agree with Tancred. A hasty, bureaucratic decision, made wiithout any consultation to relevant editors. Blackmissionary 11:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I won't disagree with the last part of your statement, but there is no need to call the closure hasty or bureaucratic. This category stood for deletion as long as any other and the closing admin can't be expected to check to ensure that the appropriate parties were notified before making his decision. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 13:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment - I'm sorry to have to point this out but not everyone who edits wikipedia is on here every day. 5 days to debate a change means that many editors will miss out. I would also suggest that the person who proposed this change made no effort at all to contact anyone who might have wanted to join the debate. There is a Australian football project page. Posting one comment there would have allowed many more people to join the debate. The Australian national football team is another easy to find page where a comment could have been left. Tancred 17:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - I don't understand why you feel the need to point this out. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be notified within the boundaries of WP:CANVAS. I am only saying that the closing admin is not responsible for this. I suggest that you discuss this with the person who nominated the category, not the closing admin. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 21:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - I was not having a go at the closing admin. I sent posts trying to follow the 'paper trail' so i could get to the source of the nomination. This established, i tried to gather an understanding as to why and how this came about in the way that it did. I'm here just about everyday, but i mostly just check the items on my watchlist; not everyone has the time or inclination to go through all the bureaucratic stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I apologise if my mtheod was perhaps a little clumsy. Blackmissionary 05:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relist per Daniel. Riana (talk) 11:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As the closing admin, on a technical, DRV-based standpoint, I must endorse the closing, as there was nothing wrong with it. However, I wouldn't be upset if it were relisted to let the football/soccer people weigh in. --Kbdank71 13:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if DRV has jurisdiction on renamed things, so I won't be making a bolded "vote". However I see no harm in inviting additional comment and gathering more complete consensus, whether on a formal relist or on the talk page. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relist taking jurisdiction under IAR, first time i've said that. The change can obviously be undone by another request at CfD but there seems to be a general concern: the obscurity of CfD (and RfD and MfD) is a problem, and there has to be a better effort at notifying those concerned. DGG 16:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure The procedures were correctly applied. It is not desirable to have more input from Australian soccer fans, as they are a biased minority within Australia, seeking to promote their sport making a claim to primary use of the word "Football" which is dismissed by the vast majority of Australian sports fans. This is a perfect example of a discussion where utilising more so called expert knowledge could lead to a biased POV outcome. If this is relisted, it should also be brought to the attention of Australian rules football, rugby league football and rugby union football fans. Alex Middleton 20:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I have no problem with it being relisted and notified amongst the followers of the other codes. I happen to be one of them. It is not wise to try and put people in boxes. The key issue here for me is not petty point scoring, after all i follow both aussie rule and soccer equally. The key issue is that there has been months of negotiation between the various relevant projects/editors that has been utterly diregarded. Blackmissionary 05:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - It is wiser to take counter action in such cases than to be willfully blind to bias, and thus allow groups of biased people to have unfettered control over any aspect of Wikipedia to which they choose to turn their attention. Alex Middleton 14:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relist. This seems to be an obvious case where consensus might not have been represented completely by those at the discussion. No harm in letting it run again. --- RockMFR 22:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relist - Even though process was followed, the fact that the Australian football/soccer project wasn't notified meant that opinions were coming from those who were apparently not privvy to the previous debates (big list here). It's taken a lot of time and effort, and "football (soccer)" is clearly a compromise between the two, it's not ambiguous and it follows the WP standard for the name of the article itself. I have no problem with the RL/AFL/RU projects being informed, but it should be made clear that there should be no bias towards "leaving things as they are" because the way things are at the moment is different to what they were a couple of days ago, and for months (without complaint) before then. – AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 23:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relist. Process was fine, but another discussion seems likely to get a different result, so let's put it up again.--Mike Selinker 03:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have relisted the debate Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_June_27#Category:Australian_soccer_players Tancred 08:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - It would have been appropriate to wait for this discussion to close first before relisting. Having two discussions in one place is confusing. Moreover, as this discussion has been open for only one day, people have not been given adequate time to comment. Dr. Submillimeter 08:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure Correct procedure, correct result. Nothing further to discuss. Postlebury 13:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've closed the other discussion. We certainly don't want to have two going on at once. -- Prove It ^(talk) 15:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone please add a link to the discussion under review at the top here. Thanks. Johnbod 02:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Make-Up.jpg

Administrator Jeffrey O. Gustafson failed to cite appropriate or valid reasons for speedy deletion, and has since all but refused to discuss the matter further. Image was originally deleted for Fair Use violation, but the image seemed to have satisfied all criteria of WP:FUC. Deletion was also rationalized by redudancy and resolution issues, but the image still satisfied all criteria of WP:IUP and WP:CSD. An archive of the discussion (or lack thereof) can be found here. Drewcifer3000 08:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Image, in lower resolution, exists here: Image:Makeup.jpg. It's redundant, and larger than the dupe, which is a valid reason. There is no need for a second. Fair use is restrictive, and we cannot have as many different versions of random copyrighted images hanging about to meet pathetic aesthetic whims. You people should be damned lucky that we even allow fair use in the first place - this is the Free Encyclopedia, after all, not the Encyclopedia where we rip off images as we see fit. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 08:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To avoid hashing out the discussion here, I would first point out that I completely agree with most of what Jeffrey said above. However I have previously responded to this exact line of reasoning here (3rd bullet point midway down). I believe Jeffrey's line of reasoning, and Wikipedia policy, dictates deletion of the other derivative image more so than the original which was instead deleted. Drewcifer3000 09:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of which image here is the right one to delete, it's a replaceable fair use image. The people in question are still alive, and in general we do not accept copyrighted media for such people since it is reasonable that a free licensed equivalent either is available or can be created. I've tagged the remaining image as such, and notified the uploaders. --Durin 14:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In my experience with Fair Use, specifically the first criteria, if a picture is of a group (rather than a single individual) then the important factor is whether or not the group is still active. In other words, is it a realistic (or even remotely hypothetical) possibility that these four people would ever gather together and be photographed as the same group. Unfortunately the Fair Use criteria does not specifically mention this, but it seems like a reasonable conclusion to come to that the band will never be photographed as a band again, since the band has dissolved and everyone has moved on. Even if the members were gathered together, which I suppose is realistically possible since they are all still alive, they would not be "The Make-Up" since "The Make-Up" has long since dissolved and the members are parts of other bands now. I checked a few archives of WP:FUC Talk Page and couldn't find any discussions related to this, but perhaps this might be a question better suited to the policy itself rather than this one image. Drewcifer3000 19:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting point. I do think though that the policy still applies, as the band members are all alive. It would be possible, for example, to take individual pictures and montage them. --Durin 19:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look at it this way: in the same way that a fair use image of an individual is replaceable if a person is still alive, a fair use image of a group is also replaceable if the group is "alive." Since the Make-Up is, for all intents and purposes "dead" it is unrealistic to assume it is replaceable.

As for the montage idea, that would also seem insufficient to me since it would depict the people who were part of the Make-Up but not the Make-Up themselves. If that makes sense. But, the same concept could be applied to an individual. If an individual is "dead" might it be possible to create a montage of fair use images to represent them and their physical features? Take Photographic mosaics for instance, specifically the sea gull at the top. If we, for the sake of argument, assume the sea gull is a celebrity, and we had no free photo of the sea gull, would this photo montage of free-images be a replaceable alternative to a fair-use image of the sea gull? I personally don't think so. This might seem like a tangent, but given the current language of WP:FUC, we must treat media of individuals and groups under similar criteria, since there is no clear distinction made.

Finally, you might think of an image of a defunct band as a historical document. The band existed from 1995-2000, and the image represents the band within that time frame. Any article concerning a defunct band could similarly be considered a historical document, as opposed to a document about a current event. Therefore, a historical article would require a similarly historical image.

But, like I said above, perhaps this might be a discussion better suited to WP:FUC talk page rather than this one isolated image? Drewcifer3000 20:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's no consensus on whether to delete pictures of defunct bands. If there were it would probably go against deletion. I don't see a legal problem, and there is no policy or guideline to address this directly -- an administrator who deletes this is making up his/her own guidelines. So I don't think deleting this picture as an isolated test case is a good idea. Let's make the policy first, then decide on the individual issues. On this point, it's silly to say that a rock band is four isolated individuals, or a picture of the band is four unconnected pictures. As a practical matter a photo montage is impossible. The band in action, or posing in their trademark clothing and makeup, shows a collective energy and identity, a branding and an image, that you just can't convey in words or through disjoint free use images. If that were the case the band would release its publicity shots that way. Obviously somebody thought there was something special to getting the whole band together for a promo shot.Wikidemo 04:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Per Drucifer3000's request, I have restored the discussion about the image. Per Jeffrey O. Gustafson's objection to it being in article talk space, I have put it at User:Drewcifer3000/TalkForMake-Up.jpg. Hope that makes things easier for folks to decide. William Pietri 18:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BatchMaster Software

BatchMaster Software is the leader as far as formula/recipe based process manufacturers are concerned. There are many companies listed in the 'List of Software Companies' that are less notable than BSI.

I admit that I am guilty of placing our article on Wikipedia repeatedly, but I was making changes to the article every time based on the comments on the talk page or the primary cause of deletion. I honestly believe that considering the position of BatchMaster ERP in the world of process manufacturing, having an article on BSI is justified. Rahulkhare 06:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep deleted as promotional; I am willing to unprotect the page to allow somebody else to write a new article about the company (the deletion discussion/vote was more about the article than about the company); but Rahulkhare, please don't re-post your version of the article. - Mike Rosoft 08:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will completely re-write the article. A humble request to please unprotect the page. My assurances that my version of the page will never see light again. Rahulkhare 08:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd recommend you to create it as a subpage in your user space, such as User:Rahulkhare/BatchMaster Software; when it is complete, it can be moved to its place (if approved by other editors). - Mike Rosoft 17:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Mike, I really appreciate this. Will do as you've suggested. It might take me upto a week to create a new page. Will this thread be active until then, so that I may place my request to the editors once again? As you may have noticed, I am fairly new at this. Do you think If I removed the company infobox from the original page, it will be less offensive? Rahulkhare 04:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have created the subpage as suggested by Mike User:Rahulkhare/BatchMaster Software. Please provide your feedbacks if any changes are desired. I am prepared to make any change as required, but humbly request the editors to give specific suggestions for improvement. Please let me know the next step in the process. Rahulkhare 10:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please advise on the next step in the process of re-inclusion of this article in Wikipedia. Rahulkhare 15:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

wishtank

Why did this page get deleted as if it were "blatant advertising?" This makes very little sense considering it was three sentences long, one giving the title and web location of the magazine, a second stating when the publication was born and a third naming the two parties who founded the publication. I feel like a disservice to the wikipedia community has been made here and ask that it is corrected. Wishtank isn't even a commercial magazine, it is run by volunteers and sells absolutely nothing. What would this wikipedia entry be blatantly advertising? Garrettheaney 07:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion ~~Twice~~Three times speedied as advert, and reading the article I can't say I disagree. Would never ever ever ever pass an Afd vote anyway. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, what is it about the article that you consider and advertisement? The information and language are unbiased and straight forward. It makes little sense to me why anyone would find the article inappropriate for wikipedia. How does the short Wishtank entry differ in form from any other wikipedia entry giving information on a magazine or resource? Wishtank is a voluntary service and doesn't monetize in any form — this claim of "blatant advertising" is simply untrue.

Just because it doesn't say "BIG SALE!!!" or "AMAZING OFFER!!" at the top doesn't mean it isn't blatant advertising. It's an article about a brand-new (less than a month old) website, obviously created by the operator of said website. How else are we supposed to see it? Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You could see it for what it is, an entry holding basic, unbiased information on a magazine. Is there a policy regarding the length of time a publication has to be in circulation before it becomes a valid source for wikipedia? I was not aware of any such policy, and if there is, I sincerely apologize. It's actually funny, that you noticed a third attempt of the wishtank entry, and you inaccurately describe that as an "advert" deletion. The reason given for the third deletion was that it didn't do enough to "sell" the magazine as an important source. This seems contradictory, considering you are here saying that that sort of "advertising" is not permittable. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what you do in keeping Wikipedia free from advertisement, but any reasonable person would see that the entry made for Wishtank is purely informational, without any of the "blatant advertising" you site in your deletion and endorsement of deletion. You are providing a disservice to the Wikipedia community and wrongfully censoring information. But I digress, you have the authority to do so and it is done. It's just disheartening from my perspective to see an objective, informational entry be labeled "blatant advertising." Go look at other magazine entries on wikipedia and tell me how they differ (other than their duration on the news stand, which again, I wasn't aware was a qualifying factor).

Actually, the third deletion was for advertising as well, specifically tagged as "db-ad - note that the article creator has the same name as the magazine's editor". And yes, we do have guidelines for websites and web content, which can be found at WP:WEB. Even if advertising were not an issue (which it is), the article would not pass our web standards. Furthermore, there doesn't appear to be any independent reliable sources on which an article on this topic could be based. And in addition, creating or editing articles on things you own, manage, or are personally involved with is discouraged per out conflict-of-interest policy (WP:COI) as well. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse I would consider it a valid speedy. It was just a product announcement, with no sourcing at all, and to me, that counts as an advertisement. If it becomes notable enough to write a sourced article, then would be the time to reconsider. DGG 18:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted the first two versions as spam (G11) and the last one for no claim of notability (A7). - Mike Rosoft 08:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Lying Game

This was deleted as Patent nonsense, and it simply was nothing of the sort -- Patent nonsense has a very restricted meaning. I undeleted as per WP:DP#Deletion review which says "If a page was obviously deleted "out of process" (per this policy), then an admin may choose to undelete it immediately." But having undelted, I find that it was in mid-afd (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Lying Game), which discussion was speedy closed by the speedy deletion. I want some support in undoing this close, and reactivating the AfD. DES ^(talk) 06:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn deletion and Endorse resubmitting at AfD. Clearly a violation of WP:MADEUP, but not a speedy candidate that I can see. I also note it has a PROD tag in addition to the AfD tag, which should probably be removed if we're going to do a full AfD. -- Kesh 06:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is process for the sake of process; had I seen the article, I would have probably speedily deleted myself. - Mike Rosoft 08:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Since it would clearly be deleted at AfD, endorse deletion is the only sensible response. To overturn and send to AfD is an abuse of process as "process for the sake of process" which is very much against Wikipedia policy (WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY). However I see that DESiegel has gone ahead and undeleted, which is okay I suppose. A minor abuse of policy and a flagrant waste of time, but not egregiously damaging. --Tony Sidaway 09:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see that DESiegel has undeleted but not (as I thought) sent it for deletion again. So I suggest that the article should be redeleted. Unless DESiegel thinks a deleted article belongs on Wikipedia, he should never restore it. That would be very, very silly indeed. --Tony Sidaway 09:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, endorse undeletion since the article is not patent nonsense in the strict sense we use the term on Wikipedia. However, I have grave suspicions that the article utterly fails notability requirements. Nonetheless, I could be wrong, so I think it's best to wait it out, and see if someone has sources establishing the suitability of the article (I cannot rule it out completely). I have tagged it with a "prod" notice along with my reason. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- (For clarification, Ram rottenly tried nominating the article both through prod and afd at once, which looks like an honest newbie mistake. Nobody has yet objected to the article being ultimately deleted, so prod seems appropriate.) Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've speedied it again as an A7. It was clearly not a G1, but I don't quite see the point in restoring for the sake of following unnecessary process here. Kusma (talk) 12:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seems reasonable given the cirumstances. Can we close this now? If someone comes up with a reference for this they can create an article and we can restore the history. --Tony Sidaway 14:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep deleted Whether it strictly fits speedy criteria or not, I see no point in running an AfD which is absolutely certain to result in delete, just to say we dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's. Deletion is oviously correct. Starblind 14:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Let me be clear. I undeleted this because whatever else it was, it wasn't a speedy. It wasn't an A7, because it wasn't about a person, group, firm, or website. It is just possible that references might have bene found at an AfD that would make it notable enough to be kept, although i doubt it. I would have placed it on AfD, but there was an AfD in progress, and I was unwilling to revert the close of that without some support here. Had I encounterd this untagged, i would probably have tagged it with prod, and possibly {{hoax}}. Perhaps this was a case where soemthing that clearly wasn't a speedy shouldn't have been argued over, given that the chance ogf it being kept as a valid article is low. Buit I am seeing far too many invalid speedys recently, and given that some editors, and indeed soem admins, infere precedents from lack of action (look at the spoiler debate) failing to act on this kind of invalid speedy is tacitly agreeing to an extension of the spedy criteria that is IMO a vary bad idea. DES ^(talk) 14:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn If we don't have process, what are we doing here--deciding whatever comes up on the merits? Why do we need DR for that, when we have AfD. WP has a deletion policy. I do not agree with every bit of it, but I abide by it and work within it, and I expect everyone else to do likewise, and delete what the rules say I should delete, and refrain from deleting when such is the rule, regardless of personal opinion. When I became an admin--fairly recently--I was asked about this, as customary, & I promised to never do otherwise Any admin. who is not willing to follow it shouldn't act as an admin. in anything that concerns the part they do not wish to follow. DGG
- Speedy is being overused; to many eds. and probably some admins., speedy means not able to withstand AfD. This destroys the utility of it if everyone follows their own standard. Nonsense does not apply to things that are not nonsense. Early on here, I tagged a few things which read like English but had nothing solid; an experienced admin. lost no time in telling me not to do that. Now I tell beginners that also. The same rule goes for everyone else, I think, even the most experienced. This is a place to correct errors of judgment, and that's what we ought to do. DGG
- A7 applies only to a person, group, band, firm, or website. I stretched that a little myself as a beginner, and was called to account then too. I now remind others. I once tried deleting an obvious hoax under that provision also, and I was similarly taught the right way. If we have rules for deleting something, and something needs deleting, it should be deleted according to the rules. Seems simple enough to me. DGG 19:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
weak overturn If DES wants to have it run through the full time let him. It was out of process so its clearly within his rights to do so. There isn't much reason to do so since it is unlikely for the article to succeed but out of process deletions are not good. JoshuaZ 20:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist. I am no fan of process for process' sake, but when an article does not meet any of the CSD categories and has generated this much controversy in a DRV, that tells me that the speedy deletion via a preemptive snowball clause is probably not the way to go. Let it have it's day (or 5) on AfD. Arkyan  ^(talk) 21:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - the article is completely and totally unsourced. Process does not give you the right to have garbage hang around for a week. This page is about a game that some friends at college made up, not something that actually exists. --BigDT 21:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Tell me, exactly where in WP:CSD is the criterion that says that "completely and totally unsourced" is a speedy deletion criterion? When did {{unreferenced}} becomw a speedy deletion template? I recall such an idea being proposed, and failing to gain consensus by a wide margin. Did I miss the change of policy? DES ^(talk) 22:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Is Wikipedia going to be a better place if we undelete somebody's joke/made-up game for a week? You are an administrator - have you looked at the deleted content? I see nothing remotely redeemable there. --BigDT 05:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yes I have. I think it likely that after an AfD this would be deleted, but I think it just possible that this game has in fact become common on some college campuses -- I have seen far more foolish games that did. If it has, and IF that can be documented through reliable sources, then there would be a valid article here. If not, the afd or even prod would probably have taken far less of people's time than this discussion has, and if an editor had hung {{notability}} or even {{hoax}} on the article, no harm would have been done to the project as a whole, because no one would have been fooled into thinking that we endorsed this until and unless sources were found. WP:CSD says: "These criteria are worded narrowly and such that in most cases reasonable editors will agree what does or does not fall under a given criterion. Where reasonable doubt exists, discussion using another method under the deletion policy should occur instead." I think it is important that every editor who tags for speedy deletion, and particularly every admin who deletes under the CSD should keep that firmly in mind. The reason is, that when we step outside those narrow criteria, we increase the risk of deleting valid articles by mistake, because not enough eyes saw them. We also increase the risk of divisiveness because people felt that their concerns are not being heard. If speedy deletion really means "Anything an admin in good faith thinks doesn't help the project may be deleted without consultation", then being an admin becomes a very big deal indeed. I think that would be a bad thing for the project. DES ^(talk) 21:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist: I've seen too many articles that looked completely hopeless get saved by the intervention of some knowledgeable editors at AfD (which is one of the main reasons that the speedy criteria are so narrow). This may not be such a time, but to assume that it isn't violates our crystal ball policy. This is not blatant spam or an attack piece that we need to get rid of ASAP. This is just something that's probably not notable, so it will do no harm to let it sit around for a few days while people mull it over. Xtifr _tälk 05:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DES is right that the contents of this page did not meet any speedy deletion criterion. He's also right that we shouldn't give admins carte blanche to delete whatever they think wouldn't pass AfD. Haukur 14:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

X-sample

This was deleted with the log comment "CSD A7: Article about subject that does not assert significance (emphasis added by me). Now of course A7 does not extend to "subjects" in general, and this is an article about a pseudonym. Furthermore, even if A7 extended to such articles, the assertion that this pseudonym was used by the very notable Eric Clapton is IMO at least a claim of notability. Now at an AfD, this might well be merged into Eric Clapton, or perhaps even deleted. Or it might be kept and improved. Overturn as improperly speedy-deleted. DES ^(talk) 05:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; this is obviously not a speedy deletion candidate; undelete, and merge/redirect to Eric Clapton and/or Simon Climie#TDF. - Mike Rosoft 18:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
overturn per DES. JoshuaZ 13:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Liam Hunt

This was deleted under WP:CSD#G1 (Patent nonsense). It is clearly not patent nonsense -- i have no trouble understanding what the article says and means. (Note that PN is limited to content that "is so completely and irredeemably confused that no reasonable person can be expected to make any sense of it whatsoever.") Liam Hunt is an article about a fictional character. The character might be non-notable, and too much of the article is written in an in-universe style, and there is too little real-world context. Those are all things that could be fixed, or if judged non-fixable, might lead to deletion at an AfD. But none of them, IMO, is a good reason for a speedy deletion. Overturn so that other editors have a chance to improve the article and, if need be, debate its deletion. The deleting admin has been asked to consider undeleting this, and has not responded, although he has responded to later msgs on his talk page. DES ^(talk) 05:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep deleted, it's one in a series of hoax articles started by a vandal-only account. Yes, it's not patent nonsense, but undeleting it and speedy deleting it later as a g3 would be stupid. - Bobet 08:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion - user indefblocked --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 13:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse deletion Obvious hoax/vandalism. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hoax/nonsense related to speedily deleted article Nathan Bragg, see VfD. Keep deleted. - Mike Rosoft 18:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kim Amidon

This was deleted this under WP:CSD#A7 (No assertion of significance or importance). I think that the text "She and Wallengren both received together a "star" on the Hollywood Walk of Fame for their work on the radio." in the article constitutes an assertion of significance sufficent that it should not be deleted via A7. Whether it would/will survive an AfD is of course another matter. The deleting admin has been asked to reconsider, avd has made no response, although he has responded to later msgs on his talk page. Overturn as invalid A7 speedy delete. DES ^(talk) 05:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn: getting a star on the Walk of Fame is a pretty strong assertion of notability. Since I can't see the article, I'll say that listing is optional, but it definitely isn't A7 fodder. Xtifr _tälk 11:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn: The article was a stub deleted after its creation with no subsequent edits. Assertion of notability was made. It should probably be given a short time for expansion and then go through either PROD or AFD if deletion is still desired. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 13:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn a Hollywood Walk of Fame star is a damn strong indication of notability. They don't call it the walk of FAME for nothing. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and remind the very experienced admin who deleted it that CSD has rules. DGG 19:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn The admin in question seems to be deleting things under A7 that are not. Someone else has brought up the idea that they're just not updating the log entries, but that's actually even worse in a way for sorting this out. This is certainly not A7 though. --Thespian 21:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
overturn' per nom and Xtifer. JoshuaZ 13:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Assertion was made, per those above. Johnbod 02:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

23andMe (closed)

Jennifer_Ann_Crecente

"deleted this article as a recreation."

Overturn

This article has a notable subject that has, amongst other things, been responsible for two legislative changes in Texas as a result of her murder - one of which is named for her.

Follows is the somewhat lengthy precursor to this "speedy delete."

Yes it's me, the anon user who nominated Brian Crecente for deletion. I was debating on nominating her (ed. note: referring to Jennifer Ann Crecete) article as well, but I figured since you added alot to it, I would run it by you first. I feel neither her article or the charity are really notable so I've been thinking about a possible merge of her article and the charity based on her, what are your thoughts? I know you are probably angry about the comments I made in the Brian Crecente afd, so I don't expect your words to be sugar coated. Please speak your mind.64.231.250.116 10:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I am still consulting with a few other users about the pages we are questioning, we are currently looking for sources. Going to give it another week or two and then a possible rewrite or afd will be dealt. 64.231.250.169 09:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I have speedy deleted this article as a recreation. I saw that you used the legislation as a justification for moving it back out of User space, but I do not agree that that is enough to overcome the reasoning given at the AFD debate. At this point, as I'm pretty sure you will disagree with my actions, I encourage you to contest this at WP:DRV. Deletion Review is the proper place to try to overturn AFD deletions if the circustances have changed. - [User:TexasAndroid] 20:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Drew30319 02:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question - Was the article that was moved from Userspace to Mainspace relatively unaltered? If so, then Endorse as recreation of previously deleted material. The entire point of userfying is to allow folks to improve the article first and make sure it is up to Wikipedia's standards before moving it back to mainspace. -- Kesh 04:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Here are the two pieces of legislation added to the userfied article. Both were entered into legislation and then passed as law since userfying the article. The first legislation requires every school district within Texas to adopt policies regarding Teen Dating Violence. The second legislation (called "Jennifer's Law") is to award posthumous diplomas. Refer to the deleted article to follow the relevant references and are fully cited in newspapers.

On February 5, 2007, the Texas Legislature's State Representative Dawnna Dukes entered a bill to require school districts in Texas to create policies regarding Teen Dating Violence. This bill was created in memory of Jennifer Ann Crecente[13] and Ortralla Mosley.[14] Jennifer Ann's Group provided testimony on February 8, 2007 to the legislature in support of this bill. Governor Rick Perry signed the bill into law on May 18, 2007 and it immediately went into effect. [15]

On February 15, 2007, on the the one-year anniversary of Jennifer's murder, Senator Eliot Shapleigh entered a bill to grant posthumous diplomas to students that have been murdered during their Senior year of high school. The bill is named "Jennifer's Law".[16] On May 28, 2007 the bill was signed in the Senate and passed to the Governor Rick Perry for signing. It will go into effect upon being signed or September 1, 2007, whichever occurs first. [17]

Drew30319 14:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse AFD For the sake of this discussion, I have placed back in Drew30319's user space both a copy of the version that was originally deleted by AFD, and the version that I deleted as a recreation. As far as I can see, the main thing that has changed since the original AFD is that the Texas legislature acted in the just finished session to pass some Teen Violence legislation that has emerged from the murder. But I just do not see that as being enough to fulfill notability, sorry. So I have to stay on the side of endorsing the AFD at this point. - TexasAndroid 13:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn and relist at AfD - The article has changed enough to not be a direct recreation of the original, and Drew30319 has gone to the effort to cite the article well. However, I agree with TexasAndroid that the subject is likely not notable enough outside her local area to have a Wikipedia article. There's enough of an assertion in the rewritten article, though, that I think it deserves another shot at AfD to reach a consensus. The issue for DRV is, did this qualify as a simple repost of previously deleted material? I believe the content has changed & improved enough that this is not the case, so deleting as such does not appear correct. Given the notability issue, though, it should go through another AfD process. If the AfD again shows she is not notable enough, it should remain deleted. -- Kesh 16:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn and relist G4 shouldn't be used when the article is markedly different, DelRev shouldn't need to be involved. The article on its face is different, as specified. Whether the legislation is sufficient will be an interesting question at AfD. DGG 19:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
overturn and relist' per Kesh and DGG. JoshuaZ 20:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn/relist per the above. The legislation may be the only difference, but it is better to let the community decide if that is enough rather than a unilateral decision that it is not. Arkyan  ^(talk) 21:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Relist There are multiple opinions in the first AFD that explicitly reference bringing the article back when a law passes. (Alba, Addhoc, Nehwyn, but not myself demonstrate that in their comments.) That is adequate evidence that the law passing does constitute a significant difference in the eyes of the original AFD's participants. Given current attitudes about bios of people involved in only one noteworthy event, we might instead want an article on the law or event, but that is a decision to let editors and or AFD participants make. GRBerry 21:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Opinion seems to be pretty overwhelming to overturn me. So be it. I have no objection if someone wanted to close this DRV out and go ahead and get the AFD relist underway. I guess I'm saying to WP:SNOW it, as it's fairly obvious where the consensus lies at this point. - TexasAndroid 22:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here we go again. This is another article that pretends to be a biography but isn't. If the law gets passed, it will make a fine start for an article on the law, but the case itself is a news story not an encyclopaedic biography of a person. Guy (Help!) 21:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Actually there is not one, but two laws that are associated with the subject of this article and both have already passed the Texas Senate and House. One has been signed by Governor Perry and the other becomes law on Sept 1st by default. The relevant content is up above but I'll reproduce it here with emphasis added to the pertinent sections:

On February 5, 2007, the Texas Legislature's State Representative Dawnna Dukes entered a bill to require school districts in Texas to create policies regarding Teen Dating Violence. This bill was created in memory of Jennifer Ann Crecente[13] and Ortralla Mosley.[14] Jennifer Ann's Group provided testimony on February 8, 2007 to the legislature in support of this bill. Governor Rick Perry signed the bill into law on May 18, 2007 and it immediately went into effect. (emphasis added) [15]

On February 15, 2007, on the the one-year anniversary of Jennifer's murder, Senator Eliot Shapleigh entered a bill to grant posthumous diplomas to students that have been murdered during their Senior year of high school. The bill is named "Jennifer's Law".[16] On May 28, 2007 the bill was signed in the Senate and passed to the Governor Rick Perry for signing. It will go into effect upon being signed or September 1, 2007, whichever occurs first. (emphasis added) [17]

As to your comment about "Here we go again." it's difficult for me to respond without more specifics. My understanding is that this is a forum to discuss not the merits of the article but instead the unilateral "speedy delete" by User Talk:TexasAndroid. Drew30319 23:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 227: / Line 227: @@
 *'''Overturn''' Assertion was made, per those above. [[User:Johnbod|Johnbod]] 02:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
+====[[23andMe]] (closed)====
-{{Subst|[[23andMe]]|Undelete endorsed, can be AFDd if anyone wants to... }}
+{| class="navbox collapsible collapsed" style="text-align: left; border: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em;"
+|-
+! style="background-color: #f2dfce; font-weight:normal;" |
+* '''[[23andMe]]''' – Undelete endorsed, can be AFDd if anyone wants to...  – [[User_talk:Pgk|pgk]] 13:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC) <!--*-->
+|-
+| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]] of the article above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>''
+|-
+| style="border: solid 1px silver; padding: 8px; background-color: white;" |
 :{{la|23andMe}} <tt>(</tt>[[Special:Undelete/23andMe|restore]]<tt>&#124;</tt><span class="plainlinks">[http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:{{fullurl:23andMe}} cache]</span><tt>&#124;</tt>[[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/23andMe|AfD]]<tt>)</tt>
 notable but speedy deleted with 150K Ghits, deleted without review. There should be a stub there, this never should have been speedied without review. Please check again under the capitalized spelling. {{unsigned|Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )}}