Wikipedia:Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive2

Joan of Arc

Joan of Arc (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Joan of Arc

• Featured article review/Joan of Arc
• Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive1
• Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive2

Notified: Durova, WikiProject Vital Articles, WikiProject Biography/Military, WikiProject Catholicism, WikiProject Religion, WikiProject Women's History, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Middle Ages, WikiProject France, WikiProject Gender studies, WikiProject Citizendium Porting, 2021-07-25

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because of sourcing concerns and bloated sections. There are citation needed templates from 2017 that need to be resolved. Multiple sources have been added to the article since its FAC, and I am skeptical that they are of the highest quality and should be evaluated for their inclusion, especially because of the vast amount of literature available for this person. There are also some bloated sections such as "See also" and "External links" which need to be reviewed, trimmed or for the See also section moved into "Legacy". I also have other concerns, which I am happy to outline in detail if anyone is interested in working to fix up this article.

This article is of interest to multiple Wikiprojects, task forces, and working groups. If one is not listed above, please add them to the list and place a notification on their talk page. Thanks. Z1720 (talk) 18:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I've taken a stab at trimming See also/ELs, but have been reverted. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Looks like your trimmed version has been reinstated - FWIW I would consider it clearly better. Both cutting all of the see also links which repeated links in the article body per MOS:NOTSEEALSO and severely cutting back the general reference works in the further reading section are clear improvements. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I've taken a quick glance at the book sources. I have doubts about Bloy 2021, as the publisher's website has a logo of an outhouse and describes it being the publisher for things that other publishers would refuse. Some of the source dates are also misleading - De Quincey and Gower are both given publishing dates in the 2000s, but they're really sources from the 19th century. This needs further attention. Hog Farm _Talk 19:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Looking over it, the sourcing needs a lot of work - it doesn't look like it reflects the current academic literature etc. Generally, the article doesn't feel FA to me. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:39, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

• Move to FARC article needs considerable work to be kept as a FA. (t · c) buidhe 21:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I've begun supplying missing citations, and will continue during the coming days as time permits; I can also correct the other problems that have been identified. GBRV (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

GBRV, are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I can work on it later today when I have time. GBRV (talk) 10:21, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

• @GBRV: Please ping me here when you are finished your edits and I will conduct a more thorough review. Z1720 (talk) 20:16, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I'll do that. GBRV (talk) 16:07, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:08, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  There is still uncited text, marginal sources highlighted by HeadBomb’s script, HarvRef errors, and multiple and inconsistent citation styles. And MOS:SANDWICH, which can be cleaned up if sourcing is brought to standard. Further reading either needs pruning, or those sources should be represented in the article, and External links appear to need pruning. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  I’ve adjusted the images for MOS:SANDWICH and MOS:ACCIM, but concerned whether some of the image captions are overly long or should be cited. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:36, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Is http://www.stjoan-center.com/ a high-quality reliable source? Who is this author? http://www.stjoan-center.com/military/stephenr.html Also, since he provides a bibliography, could we not better consult the original sources ? The article also uses history.com, and a non-reliable newspaper reporting on info supplied by an auction house (https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/joan-arc-ring-dating-back-15th-century-sale-london-auction-1535043) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:48, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• GBRV It looks like you've been doing a lot of work on this article. This article is huge. The good news is that the material is all there, though it looks like too much may be there. I prefer to stay out of the lead editor's way, but if at some point, you'd want help, let me know. Be warned: I'd want to move the whole thing to sfn format, sort the notes and the references, diversify and corroborate references. And of course, that probably means some editing too, though this article is fortunately already well developed. (Perhaps overly so?) It seems like you are on a roll, so I'll stay out of it unless you are open to the possibility. I think you'll probably get it in great shape. I would ask that if it remains at risk due to references, that you or the FARC team keeping an eye on it ping me and I'll pitch in before delisting. If I don't hear back, all is good, and I'm not sure how much I'll be able to do until January anyway... Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 05:03, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Wtfiv I'll keep working on it, and can contact you if I need help. GBRV (talk) 18:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

GBRV Sounds good. I started templating references and moving them so they can be separated out. There's two of them. But I'll stop for now until I hear otherwise. Feel free to revert what I've done. See my comments on the article talk page for what I did as well. Wtfiv (talk) 19:12, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

FAR Committee, I think GBRV is committed to salvaging the article, and is most comfortable without my involvement at this time. I asked GBRV to ping me whenever my skills may be of use in collaborative editing. Additionally, please contact me for some unfortunate reason progress stalls and it comes up for a delist vote again, and I'll put my energy into keeping it featured. It seems pretty straightforward to accessibly, reliably and consistently source. Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised in the review section include sourcing and structure. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:16, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

• Delist still cites non-RS as mentioned by SG above (t · c) buidhe 01:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Buidhe If the vote now needs to run its course, I'll stay out of it. Otherwise, I'd like to give it a try to not have it delisted, particularly if the references are the big problem. My work would be slow until late January, but I would work at it in the interim.) I just don't want to tread on GBRV's work. Wtfiv (talk) 05:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Striking vote if there is a plan for fixing up the article :) (t · c) buidhe 05:23, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

FARC team, I think GBRV is committed to salvaging the article, and is most comfortable without my involvement at this time. I asked GBRV to ping me whenever my skills may be of use in collaborative editing. Additionally, please contact me for some unfortunate reason progress stalls and it comes up for a delist vote again, and I'll put my energy into keeping it featured. It seems pretty straightforward to accessibly, reliably and consistently source. Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

• Delist. There's still significant problems with the sourcing, including the use of primary sources, original research etc. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Please at least allow me to continue working on fixing the problems first before voting to delist. GBRV (talk) 17:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

• Hold: Work is ongoing. You may ping me when the article is ready for review. Z1720 (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
• Hold, plenty of active work underway. Please ping me when work is done and I will be happy to review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

  I see Wtfiv is still quite actively working. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:59, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Sandy! I am working on it, but this month my pace is slower than normal so it may take until January. It's been a bit tough since the sourcing in this article was looser than I expected. I'm also glad that GBRV is pitching in too! Wtfiv (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

• A minor suggestion for Wtfiv, who I'm thrilled to see working on this. It is probably worth briefly mentioning Schiller's The Maid of Orleans at some point in the article, in addition to (and mainly because of) the four operas it inspired by Verdi, Tchaikovsky and to a lesser extent Klebe and Pacini. Aza24 (talk) 08:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Aza24 I think it would be great to get the operas in there! Wtfiv (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Aza24 I didn't mention the operas and plays, as there is a separate article, Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, with a huge list. There is so much art inspired by her story! Wtfiv (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

• @Wtfiv: you're doing a job of work on this, nice one! For the record, this is pretty much my area of specialism, so if you want a hand, let me know, and if there's anything specific I can get to without getting under your feet, I will—I've got most of the major scholarship. Happy New Year all! SN54129 — Review here please :) 16:52, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

  Awesome! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Sandy Happy New Year!

SN54129 Happy New Year to you too! Right now, I'm at the retrial section, as I'm working forward sequentially. Just let me know what you would like to do, and I can stay out of your way while you are working on it It looks to me there is a lot of work: Retrial, Canonization, Legacy, Visions, Cross-dressing all seem to need a lot of TLM (tender, loving maintenance). If you want to pick a section (and I have no problem handing off the "Retrial" section before I dive in deeper into the research- let me know and I'll stay out of your way. If one of us gets done a section and is ready for another, we can just message each other here.

Also, if you want to edit any preceding section, please do. And, I can follow up with citation formatting as you complete sections, if you find it a hassle. Ideally it'd be great if all citations be linkable, but of course, that is just a preference on my part. (Verifying citation to text integrity- and assessing reliability of sources- has been one of the major issues.) Just let me know what you would like to do. Wtfiv (talk) 18:28, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

SN54129 — Review here please :) 16:52, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll volunteer to edit the Visions and Cross-dressing sections. GBRV (talk) 18:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

GBRV That sounds great! You have a good editor's eye! I have a couple of not too strong requests on those sections that I'll post on the Joan talk page. Wtfiv (talk) 01:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Just mentioning that the edits for the review are still underway. There's definitely headway, I think, but once more the progress may slow a bit, but hopefully its moving along well enough that it can remain part of the review process. If there is a concern, please let me know. Wtfiv (talk) 01:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Update: Many editors are still working on this article and improvements are being made. Z1720 (talk) 16:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi FAR committee, I think the draft sections in which I took on the lead role in editing (all but "Visions" and "Cross-dressing") are now ready for review. I am particularly grateful to GBRV for all the follow-up editing: patience as my aligning text to source modified much of the original story, opening discussion when needed, addressing issues of detail, cleaning up poorly worded prose, and the tireless copy editing.

GBRV has taken on the lead role in editing the "Visions" and "Cross Dressing" sections and is still working on them. Once GBRV feels they are ready to go, and the FAR review begins, I'll be ready and available to address any concerns raised. Thanks for your patience so far! Wtfiv (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

The lead has a series of one- or two-sentence paragraphs which could probably be re-worked to four or five paragraphs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:33, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I think it is fixed: merged post-Paris activities into one paragraph; combined religious legacy with cultural legacy. Wtfiv (talk) 22:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Also merged all military activity up to the Siege of Paris into one paragraph. Wtfiv (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

• Comment - I see that GBRV has been sock-blocked. Hog Farm _Talk 14:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  With a direct impact on the integrity of this article. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ryn78 and User:Durova/Complex vandalism at Joan of Arc and Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/AWilliamson. Wtfiv how can the integrity of the article be checked? Is it only sections Visions and Cross dressing, or is there more? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:47, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  Reading the Durova subpage, I happen to notice that both Williamson and Frohlick are cited in the article. Hog Farm _Talk 14:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  @WP:FAR coordinators: just to make sure they see this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  Serial Number 54129 you offered (above) to look in here; considering the recent development (considerable and decades old socking), your help may be needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:04, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  This is a 34-page PDF [1] of Williamson in Wirth.

  Williamson, Allen (2006). "Context". In Wirth, Robert (ed.). Primary Sources and Context Concerning Joan of Arc's Male Clothing (PDF). Joan of Arc: Primary Sources Series. Translated by Williamson, Allen. New York: Historical Academy (Association) for Joan of Arc Studies. ISSN 1557-0355. OCLC 61118807. Archived from the original (PDF) on 16 August 2006.

  The Academy for Joan of Arc Studies was incorporated in April 2005. Its president is Williamson with an address listed as Sartell, a suburb of St. Cloud (as established by Durova at User:Highest-Authority-on-Joan-of-Arc-Related-Scholarship/AWilliamson sock puppets). The registered office of the Academy is in Minneapolis at an address that appears to have been owned by Wirth. This may be a self-published source (as discussed at the community ban discussion, although the connection between the address was not made there). I have tagged it as "better source needed", although I first tagged it RS, mistakenly thinking it was a non-peer-reviewed journal. Considering the earlier stunt of adding a period on to the end of Durova's user name, to make it appear that she had made some edits, we should take care to establish credentials in these sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• As an aside, I've still got quite a few problems with the content of this article, and it badly needs a decent copy-edit. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:38, 25 February 2022 (UTC)I

I'm away from my usual place dealing with personal issues, but can return to the editing around mid-week of next week. If the team is good with what I've done so far. Here's my perspective:

• I agree that Williamson and Frohlick are problematic. I'm careful about them because I also try to negotiate the concerns of other active editors.

• Removing Williamson is no problem. I too ha questions about the Williamson site. I put it in as a compromise with another editor who wanted to keep the issue about Joan's clothing preventing rape. IBut I did look the article over, and it seemed to me that it didn't misquote its primary sources. It's major contribution was the one about Joan's clothing, which I implicitly offered as a collaborative compromise for another active editor. Removing it, and leaving the issue in the "cross-dressing" section with the more reliable sources seems to me to be a reasonable solution. (But I do think there was a lot of Williamson's language in the original article, such as stating the retrial declared Joan innocent when sources state her trial was annulled, incorrectly calling the second trial an appellate court, and removing all language implying that the original trial had inquisitional powers and the suggestion that Joan was primarily executed for cross-dressing)

• I thought I minimized reliance on Frohlick. I just checked, and there's only one reference, accompanied with another source, Pernoud and Clin, who are acknowledged scholars who make a similar point. That said, Frohlick can be edited out with no problem.

• Except for the visions and cross-dressing sections, I feel the sourcing of the article is otherwise solid, though I have no doubt there is need for further editing. I am glad to begin the editing of those two sections, as I've been collecting sources on them and think that they need a great deal of work. I just wanted to make sure that GBRV had had the opportunity to edit first, as I want to ensure respect for the article. I'll begin working on these next week. (Though it means there'll be a lag before I start on the G. Fox article.)
• Finally, there is the biggest problem that I may not be able to address. I have no doubt that Hchc2009's point about copy edit is correct. As Sandy knows, I'm awful at copy editing. I leave a wake of errors behind in my editing. I get too immersed in sourcing and getting it right, and after hours of peering at prose, lose sight of the typos and grammos. That's where I particularly appreciated GBRV's critical editorial eye, even when we disagreed on interpretation and nuance.

My thought was once we get the drafting taken care of- which would be the cross-dressing and visions sections- the team comes in and makes all the needed suggestions allow the article to maintain its featured star. I'm open to whatever solution the team deems appropriate, though my own desired goal would be a solution that keeps the featured article status. To my eye, this seems straightforward if we complete the major revision on the visions and cross-dressing sections , remove the Williamson and the Frohlick (references, which is easy), and if the problems of copy-editing are not fatal to the articles integrity. Thoughts? Wtfiv (talk) 22:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

If you are able to accomplish all of that, and if we don't have any socking interference, we should be able to round up people to copyedit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

It seems to me that finishing up shouldn't be hard nor take overly long. Frohlick and Williamson are already deleted. (The Frohlick was just a reference to an image of Joan's signature, but it's not really needed, as it's already in the saint infobox.) That just leaves the last two sections. My major editing concern to date- and the part that leads me to work more slowly- has been ensuring that the project respects the perspective of all editors who felt passionately.

What I do have concerns about is that many of the ancillary Wikipedia articles related to Joan of Arc topics that are linked in the article reference many of the same problematic sources and make many of the same (IMO) poorly sourced and, most likely, incorrect claims. But that's beyond the scope of my commitments. Wtfiv (talk) 22:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Wtfiv this article is the mother lode, from which the unscrupulous would desire to derive hits.

Please remember to keep Wikipedia:Featured article review/George Fox/archive2 updated, as to whether you can still work there. Best regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the Visions and Cross-dressing sections. I think the article is now well-sourced and has a consistent format throughout. I have no doubt that there are egregious first pass (first public draft) copy edit errors in those sections. Still, please take a look and if you think the article is ready for copy editors, if it should wait until I do more cleanup, or if major concerns still remain. just let me know. Wtfiv (talk) 08:00, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, a copyedit is needed, although most of the issues are minor typos, missing words or wikilinks, punctuation, and such.[2] @Hchc2009, Z1720, Serial Number 54129, and Aza24: I stopped after I realized I may be messing up the tenses. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Sandy. Let me know when folks think the text and sources are up to FA standard and I'll happily give it a thorough review. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

FARC break Hi Hchc2009, At this point, I think the sources should be pretty good. There's also more cleanup I'm working at (cleaning up residue of possible sockpuppeting, and cleaning up the "Background" section.) Also, I'll keep at the copy editing, which you had previously mentioned. Its not my strength and its a slow grind, but I'll keep at it to salvage the article. But my question for you, is when you glance at the article what are the major issues you'd still like to see addressed? If possible, I will do what I can to take care of them before you give it a more thorough review. Thanks! Wtfiv (talk) 06:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe, Z1720, SandyGeorgia, Aza24, Serial Number 54129, and Hog Farm: What issues are outstanding from your perspectives? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:50, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The number of footnotes is vastly excessive, failing the summary style requirement. Some sources such as Sackville-West, Victoria (1936). Saint Joan of Arc, Lowell, Francis Cabot (1896). Joan of Arc, Mackinnon, James (1902). The Growth and Decline of the French Monarchy., etc., it's questionable if they are HQRS. (t · c) buidhe 02:53, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The lead is too long for optimal readability and should be shortened to meet MOS:LEAD (t · c) buidhe 02:57, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Yikes. There are 2,600 words in footnotes; that's an entire article. Wtfiv, how did this come to be ? I have to agree with the terms vastly excessive.

SandyGeorgia Regarding footnotes: I've removed most of the Latin quotes taken from Quicherat. (The Latin quotes were added to ensure that uncited quotes were verifiable. Many quotes originally in Latin were being cited as English-language citation without attribution. This may be related to socking. And even some of secondary source cites are questionable translations when compared to the Latin original.) I've reduced the citations. I also removed a miscelleny of other footnotes. Using LibreOffice to verify, there are now 36 footnotes with a wordcount of 1,398. For comparison, the footnotes for Joyce come in 54 for a wordcount of 1,920. (If there is a WP tool for word counting footnotes, please let me know). So, I'd suggest this is no longer excessive, but FAR can decide this. (Personally, I like the footnotes, as they amplify controversies and interesting but subsidary points without detracting from the text.)

I disagree on the lead length; MOS:LEAD provides guidelines which, of late, have been (mis)interpreted as strict rules at FAC, to the detriment of some leads. As one of many examples of misapplication of what the guideline actually says, Modussiccandi's lead at L. D. Reynolds came into FAC at a perfectly fine summary of the article, which was damaged at its FAC, based on a misread of what the guideline actually says. I think the length about right here. The more important aspects of MOS:LEAD are that we provide a concise overview that summarizes the body and entices the reader to continue; nowhere does MOS prescribe as an absolute only a certain number of paragraphs or words. The lead is going to be the only thing someone like me will be interested in and it gives me what I need to know. I do see some words that can be trimmed here and there, but leave that to the prose masters. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:21, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Sample: She was captured by Burgundians troops on 23 May and afterwards exchanged to the English. She was put on trial by the pro-English bishop, Pierre Cauchon, on a charge of heresy ... could lose the date and three sentences in a row starting with she and later is implied/redundant ... something like ... Burgundians troops captured her and exchanged her to the English; the pro-English bishop, Pierre Cauchon, had her tried for heresy. I'm not a wordsmith, but this gives me the idea that word trimming and redundancy reducing may be in order throughout. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:33, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Back on the question of 2,600 words in footnotes, as one example, why isn't this footnote just a source with a note or quote attached ? What is the distinction here between footnotes and citations? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

• She was a warrior, whose leadership helped restore the kingdom of France.
• SandyGeorgiaThe Piccolimini quote was footnoted because an indirect quote. I tend to footnote supporting quotes (e.g., opinions, letters, trial transcripts, and indirect quotes); I tend to reserve citation template post-scripts to quote foreign text, which I try to tie to a linkable source, and provide an accompanying and verifiable English translation. Wtfiv (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

References

I will look in tomorrow; I can only look at generalities, as the topic is out of my comfort zone. Could someone bribe Ealdgyth to at least glance over this one? Like, offer her a prize Arabian horse or something ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I understand editors feeling a need for topic sentences, but sentences like this leave me cold:

• Joan remains a major cultural figure.

It says nothing, and means nothing, and why "remains"? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:13, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

There are multiple instances of the also redundancy: for example:

• She is also a saint in the Roman Catholic Church.

The also is unnecessary; a review throughout would be helpful, with an eye towards Graham and Tony1. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Something is off in this sentence in the lead, which could also be trimmed:

• In 1456, an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III investigated the original trial, which was found to have been by deceit, fraud and incorrect procedure.

  --> ?? --> Pope Callixtus III ordered an investigation in 1456, which determined the original trial was marred by deceit, fraud and incorrect procedure.

All in all, as Wtfiv asked/indicated above, a copyedit by a new set of eyes is in order. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:39, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm a bit concerned about a few sourcing bits here:

• " that she was secretly the half sister of King Charles VII" - is sourced to the original 1819 claim, which has been soundly rejected. (FWIW, Alternative historical interpretations of Joan of Arc suggests the significance of this claim isn't that she was his sister, but that it would have made her a bastard child). A modern source should probably be used here, and if supportable by sources, the true significance of her being a bastard child should be mentioned.

The alternative historical interpretations also cites the 1819 Caze as its first case. But the Joan article citation is more verifiable. The page number links to a freely accessible source, and the quotation in French is also directly linked in the citation, and a translation is offered in the citation post-script. The reference links to the freely available book in Google Books as well. Wtfiv (talk) 01:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

• I'm unsure of the quality of "Russell, Preston (2014). Lights of Madness: In Search of Joan of Arc. Savannah, GA: Frederic C. Beil, Pub. ISBN 9781499040562. OCLC 1124448651." - Frederic C. Beil at least partially does something called "assisted self-publishing". What makes this high-quality RS if the publisher is dodgy?
• Egan is a master's thesis, what makes it pass WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
• What makes famous-trials.com a high-quality RS?
• Shouldn't de Pizan be in primary sources, instead of the online refs?

I have not done source-text checks (which should be done, given the socking in the history), nor have I checked to make sure that more than a couple of the primary citations are appropriate. Hog Farm _Talk 15:17, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Buidhe and Hog Farm; between your comments and mine (prose, plus sourcing, plus source-to-text integrity check on a long article), I am getting the impression that bringing this article over the line is going to require a sustained effort from a number of us (similar to the surprise we got at J. K. Rowling, where we found bigger issues once we dug in). Z1720? Am I overstating the case? If this is the case, what is the plan? My prose is not good enough to do the copyediting on an article in this content area of this scope. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:27, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

My thought is that it depends on the results of the spot-checking. Of the sources I flagged, Caze (the 1819 bastard claim) is only used once; Russell 2014 is only used once, and for a historical backgroundstatement that should be easier to replace; Egan is only used once, and for a historical background statement; Linder is only referenced as a translation of the abjuration in a footnote in a spot that should probably be an EL instead of part of the footnote, so at least the one's I've flagged should be easily fixable. Hog Farm _Talk 15:33, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

So depending on what Buidhe and Z1720 say, perhaps a spotcheck should be next, before attempting a copyedit? I'm concerned about that, as there are so many book sources. (I wish the Ealdgyth bribe had worked ... ) Am I correct that library access is needed to spotcheck here ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia spot checking should be simple.

• I think every book citation links to a work that is freely available and verifiable. (Archive.org needs a registration).

• When possible, a page link is provided at each citation, so that the reader can just click it to verify.
• Just a note on citations. In addition, to showing consensus, multiple sources also provide differences of context and interpretation, which is fascinating to that very small percentage of readers who want to go deeper into the sources. Wtfiv (talk) 00:45, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I would feel much more comfortable making sure the sources were right before fixing prose, since this article's socking history seems to go back some time. Hog Farm _Talk 15:48, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree, fix the sourcing issues first and axe notes, then work on the prose. Issues are not insurmountable but they will require sustained effort to fix. (t · c) buidhe 17:49, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

At this point, my editing on Wikipedia is much slower and more "catch as catch can". Though I'll continue to work on the article.

buidhe I don't know what HQRS means, but I think it has to do with old reliable sources? Here's some background. Because the primary source is stable, most points in the older works have not been superceded:

• Lowell's work remains a good detailed summry of even older data from the perspective of a legal scholar.
• Sackville-West's work is a classic, which is cited throughout the literature. Though it must be used carefully, she often makes the strongest points about Joan's role as a non-traditional woman. And Sackville-West dug deeply into the literature. Sproles 1996 provides a good summary.

More importantly, when I was working through the article, almost every statement I edited was challenged, so I wanted to make sure that each change could be verified and it wasn't the opinion of one source. Now that much of that issue has been resolved, I'm willing alter this. But the citations do solidify the article and challenge any future changes to the article to rely on cited sources. Please let me do what you suggest.

SandyGeorgia The footnotes are vast because when working with GBRV, I wanted to ensure that the quotes were exact as most changes were challenged. Each change was challenged, and I wanted to make sure they were justified and cited. (As you can gather, at one point after finishing the biography, I was exhausted with making the changes and just handed it to the challenging editor.) But now, a great many can easily be removed.

The sourcing bits seem fairly minor.

• Pizan can be moved to a primary source, though it is second-hand.
• I added Egan when I found it in my research. I have no issues about citing a well-sourced thesis. I like to lead readers to such articles. But it can certainly go.
• Preston Russell was an artifact of an earlier article (and the previous "Visions" section had an unattributed quote from him, too.) I didn't have the heart to remove Russell, given he recently died in the last two years. The book seemed informal but interesting and had citations. The publisher is a minor one, the citation is a minor one too. And it could certainly go if that's the consensus.
• Famous-trials.com just cites documents. I used it because it seemed to translate things accurately based on my research and is easily accessed. I may be able to find the documents elsewhere in the depths of archive.org, but it was convenient.

Hog Farm I'd really appreciate somebody source checks! I have no doubt I've made errors along the way. I've caught and fixed a few myself, as I often click them repeatedly when editing. I do think, however, that the majority of errors made are minor. I'd appreciate those being addressed, since almost all are linked and I'd like them to be appropriate.

• I cited Caze verbatim to ensure the claim was right. I'm not big on the revisionist history section at all, but if we keep it, I want it to be verifiable. Wtfiv (talk) 03:32, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to address why this article is where it is with so many footnotes (with exact quotes) and citations. Sandy and Hogfarm have gotten to the key of why this article is where it is. When I started, I was wondering why it was semi-protected. Then I've encountered my first deep-sock work in this article. My work has been an attempt to thoroughly vacuum out the socking. Unfortunately, even as I was working on the article, I had to thoroughly support each edit for an editor who seemed committed to the sock version. Every change had to be supported by multiple authors to ensure they wouldn't be softly reverted. (For example, the overly long footnote on Charles VII attempt to save Joan, when the overwhelming consensus is that no effort was taken.) I think I've scoured out the vast majority of socking related material. However, you can see that I did keep the points made via the socking if there were reliable sources to back it up. Usually this was done in the context of presenting it as one opinion amidst others. (e.g., the cross-dressing section). Though I'm not the best copy-editor, I went through each source and tried to verify it. Keep in mind that this socking may occur again. Having solid verifiable sources, and requiring them for new edits, seems to be the best tool for challenging future attempts, which seem decades old and will probably return again.

This has started me on a secondary project. Although it is not directly related to the Joan of Arc article, I've been also working on Joan of Arc related articles (e.g., Trial of Joan of Arc,Retrial of Joan of Arc, Pierre Cauchon,Canonization of Joan of Arc). Most of the issues are related to content brought up in the investigations. Whether direct or not, much of the information is close to verbatim from same few articles and websites that are associated the sock-puppet investigations. Interestingly, these verbatim sources sometimes have English-language quotes with quotations marks for difficult to access sources in French.

Frankly, this one has been a tougher haul than I expected given the complexities of the socking, but its been educational too! As always, my posts are far too long, but that said, I'm willing to continue to help out with this article as the FARC sees fit. Just let me know. Wtfiv (talk) 21:47, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Feeling badly that you had to go through this :( All things considered, we probably should keep the footnotes, as the sock is persistent. Maybe just chip away at the prose for now? I'm socked in trying to wrap up some difficult issues at another FAR for at least a few more days, and always have my own list of socks trying to make my editing here a miserable experience :( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

The image caption's ref says "It is not impossible that this miniature comes from the collection of Georges Spetz" — but the image caption itself says "most likely an art forgery by the Alsatian painter Georges Spetz" — how is this an equivalent interpretation? Aza24 (talk) 05:00, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Aza24 Good call! I'm not sure if the footnote translation helped catch it, but that's why I like everything being verifiable. I'll remove mention of Spetz. Wtfiv (talk) 04:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Editing summary with respect to FAR concerns to date.

In Talk:Joan of Arc 25 July 2021, Z1720 raised the following concerns. This is how they've been addressed:

• There are citation needed tags from 2017 (Done: Most statements are cited. Almost all citations have live links, and are verifiable.
• Many Sources may not reliable. (Done: Almost all sources are WP:RS. Many, many have been added. A small number of these have been questioned by reviewers. I'm comfortable with them, but editors can remove them or others. Potential sockpuppet sites had already been addressed, and were trivial to remove.)
• References need to be standardised. (Done: all references are sfn)
• Sources in the "Further reading" section need to be evaluated, incorporated, or deleted. (Done: no further reading, all have been incorporated or deleted.)
• "See also" section is bloated and needs to be trimmed. (Done: See also has been deleted)
• There's no legacy section; see also could be incorporated (Done: Legacy section added.)

Sinking into reality noted in the same section above:

• Used French sources, not English (Addressed: There are still a small handful of French sources when English source is not available, but they are linked and verifiable. A translation of text is provided.)
• Reduce reliance on Pernoud. (Done: Pernoud's three books are still major resources, but the article no longer relies on it.)

In the delist discussion above, Hchc2009 mentions issues with:

• Primary sources (Done: there are few primary sources in citations (e.g., Aquinas may be one, but is appropriate to support paraphrase). Most have been moved to footnotes when used.)
• Original research (Done: there was a bit of this due to the sock puppet issue, these have been removed and statements now have verifiable citations.)

Other issues:

• Questions about the lead. (Addressed: It try's to summarize the article. Thank you SandyGeorgia for suggesting the lead appears adequate, and for your suggestions.)
• Questions about the number of sources. (Addressed. This article, and other Joan-related articles has misrepresented through unverifiable sourcing. Now nearly every statement has a citation, and often multiples. Everyone of these had been worked through by me, except for a couple by GBRV, which I verified after they were added. Spot checking these might be worthwhile though. I'm sure I made some errors.)
• Footnote length (Addressed: ~36 footnotes/wordcount of ~1,398. For comparison, the footnotes for James Joyce are ~54/1,920)
• Sock puppet issues. (Addressed: I think almost all have been caught by using verifiable references.)

• Unverified claims and original research has been removed.
• I've kept a number of points advocated by the sock puppet if WP:RS also support the point. But the points have usually been reduced to one perspective among others. Sock puppet sources are not used. (The three sources questioned are not part of sock puppet investigation. As mentioned, they can be removed by editors having doubts.)

From my understanding, the remaining issues raised are trimming and copyediting. (Ongoing: trimming and copyediting will continue for a while.)

Otherwise, I'm thinking the major concerns that triggered the FAR have been addressed? (Though, there is always more for editors to do!) Wtfiv (talk) 04:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

• MOS:FIRST: ". Be wary of cluttering the first sentence with a long parenthesis containing alternative spellings, pronunciations, etc., which can make the sentence difficult to actually read; this information should be placed elsewhere." Can the other names she is known by be moved out of the first sentence, to the end of the first para? What a mess of clutter in the first sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Some/many people will read only the first para ... a big leap is made here that omits the British and leaves the impression the French killed her: "is considered a heroine of France for her role during the Lancastrian phase of the Hundred Years' War. She was convicted and burnt at the stake as a heretic, but her conviction was later overturned." Adding something about captured and transferred to British would help ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:15, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Curious about why all Saints are not linked here, and why Baudricourt makes it into the lead ... " later testifying that she had received visions from the archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine instructing her to support Charles and recover France from English domination. Her request to see the king was rejected twice, but eventually the garrison commander Robert de Baudricourt relented and gave her an escort to meet Charles at Chinon." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• What does successive add here? ") after the successive deaths of his four older brothers." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:23, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Sentence in first paragraph on Joan's death added L'Origine du monde on 6 April 2022. Seemed like a good addition. Just edited it slightly by adding "by the English".

SandyGeorgia

• I just deleted the name and nickname items. La Pucelle is mentioned in the article with references. Maid of Orleans is not mentioned or cited in the text, but if you feel it is important we could move it to the Early Legacy. I can find a reference somewhere. Just let me know. Otherwise, I'll leave it out.
• There's a footnote on why the saints are not linked. They were linked in the past, but this is one of the times the suspected sock puppet was right: Joan never specified which Saints were Margaret and Catherine. I looked it up. Many scholars assume it is Margaret of Antioch and Catherine of Alexandria. See Sullivan, 1999, pp. 88–89, who is cited in the footnote. There are links in the footnote too. But, if you prefer to link them in the main text. Let me know. Both options make sense: one is slightly more accurate. The other gives readers context.
• Baudricourt was there when I arrived. It's a critical point in Joan's story, but I agree Baudricourt shouldn't steal the lead limelight. Baudicourt is out of the lead now.
• "Successive" is gone. Wtfiv (talk) 06:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I reviewed the article and made some MOS changes. Overall, I think this is ready to keep. Z1720 (talk) 02:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

• (Non-Joan-reviewer comment) Imho, 'Maid of Orléans' should absolutely get a mention; it's more than a nickname as we would recognise it, it had a deliberate double symbolism; Maid, emphasising her virginity, and Orléans, where the French resurrection began. It's not a modern invention of lady novelists either; a little known French writer called Voltaire wrote a lengthy poem in 1796 called La Pucelle, or, The Maid of Orléans. Great stuff it is too—draws a direct link to the rebellion of Joan against the English with the sans culottes] against the French crown. Á la lanterne, aristos!  :) SN54129 15:42, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

  SN54129, I added a sentence in her early legacy, mentioning that she was called the Maid of France. During her life she called herself La Pucelle, but Pernoud and Clin mention that the first literary mention of Maid of France is in 1630. The Voltaire is mentioned in the cultural depictions of Joan article. I usually think of his work in the context of Schiller's play, which stikes me as a kind of romantic response to Voltaire's vision. Wtfiv (talk) 16:13, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

  Excekllent analysis, Wtfiv, and apologies, I was only looking at this page, not 'daughter' pages  :) SN54129 16:15, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

• Also, on sourcing. There are several curious omissions; Allmand's HYW is of course great, but his Lancastrian Normandy is specifically on the Henrician period; Crane's article on the significance of clothing ditto, but she later expanded her thesis into a full-length work, The Performance of Self: Ritual, Clothing, and Identity During the Hundred Years War; surprised not to see anything from René Ambühl on the 15th C. period of the wars; and not forgetting, of course, L. J. Andrew Villalon's trilogy. Yet, Vita Sackville-West is an appropriate source while Anne Curry is an external link?! SN54129 16:04, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

  SN54129 I replaced two Crane article citatons with citations of her book. The book is later and adds a bit, but the article is strong because it is more focused. The sources I used were used because they are reliable and can be verified by link. I didn't attempt to cover the vast breadth of the Joan bibliography, though some reviewers may feel the references is already too large. Do feel free to add any other citations you'd like to the article. I would ask that if at all possible, it'd be great to pick sources that can be link verified. This article had previously been subject to a number of citations that didn't make the claims given to them.

An accessible work by Curry et al. (2015) was added as a source and used as citation for two points. Wtfiv (talk) 16:48, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

• As an aside. Sackville-West keeps getting critiqued. Perhaps because she is not an academic historian. Yet, she was careful in her biography and research, going through the source material and amply footnoting. The academic literature responds to her work respectfully, though as usual questioning some of her point of view, and it strikes me as well written. If editors wish to delete her, I think it could be done without too much impact to the article. So please do so, if you wish. But I think her biography provides an enriching perspective.Wtfiv (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

• @Hog Farm, Buidhe, and Hchc2009: Any outstanding issues? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:42, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  Way too many notes. I would oppose at FAC on this basis—notes should only be used sparingly because most content should either be in the article text or is not important enough to include at all. Most of these details belong on sub articles. (t · c) buidhe 03:20, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Hchc2009 comments

From my side, although the article is much improved on its condition last year, I think there's still quite a bit to do to meet FA standards:

• The text is well below FA standard. Even just in the lead, we have phrases like "is considered a heroine of France" (considered by whom?); "Nearly 500 years after her death," - why force the reader to calculate the approximate date?; "Her request to see the king was rejected twice" - who is the king at this point? Presumably not Charles...; "Charles sent Joan, who was about 17 years old," - why tell the reader her age at this point?; "She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429" - does the exact day of the month matter for the lead?; and so on. Similar problems throughout the main text, which needs a serious copy edit.

• Heroine falls out of her legacy role explained in sections below: she is seen a symbol of France, a saint, a martyr, a heroic women. All cited. However, please feel free to substitute appropriate word for "heroine".
• 500 years changed to "Four hundred and eighty-eight".
• Joan's age is emphasized to remind readers of her youth at the beginning of her role. Please delete if not seen as appropriate.
• Specific dates are given to show the speed of Joan's Orlean campaign: 29 April to 16 July. Please delete if not seen as appropriate. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• The lead correctly notes that the first trial was politically inspired, but it doesn't pull out that so was the later investigation - as the main text highlights, the second investigation was politically orchestrated by Charles (for the opposite reasons to the first!)

• I'm not sure where the lead directly addresses the political issue. It does mention that Cauchon was pro-English. If that is problematic, please delete. I didn't catch anything else, but please reword any other sentence in the lead that states trial was political. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• The term "peasant family" in the lead is a tricky one. It is correct - it refers to the family's place in the feudal landowning system - but for many readers "peasant" is the same as "poor"... and Joan's parents were, as the main text says, relatively well off. Well worth avoiding the term in the lead - it will be misinterpreted.

  As mentioned, "peasant" correctly describes family's status. The main text qualifies their status within this class by pointing out how Joan's family was in the higher echelon of the village. But if the connotations of the word "peasant" in the lead is seen as having the potential to mislead readers, please substitute an alternative word. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  I wiki-linked peasant (a pre-industrial agricultural laborer or a farmer with limited land-ownership, especially one living in the Middle Ages under feudalism and paying rent, tax, fees, or services to a landlord) and repeated the words in the body of the article, of some means. This gives us the opportunity to enlighten our readers about the word peasant. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Alleged relics" section title - several problems with this. The content of the section doesn't actually mention any religious relics, and suggests that the ring might be genuine - in which case "alleged relic" is a bit pejorative.

  "relics" changed to "artifacts". Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  Describing the ring as an "alleged" artifact seems appropriate its provenance has not been established, but please feel free to substitute a synonym less negative connotations.

  This text is gone, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• "The accepted version of Joan of Arc's life has been challenged by revisionist authors." - this needs a citation that the authors then listed are considered revisionist. Is it even worth discussing Case's views from 1819, btw?

  Revisionist authors" replaced with "Alternative historical interpretations". Revisionist author link deleted.

  Case's interpretation is historically interesting and occasionally crops as a topic, but please feel free to delete if it is considered irrelevant. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  Many of these sub-headings were unnecessary, and I've removed them. Also, Caze's revisionism is no longer in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Some "current voice" statements need checking for dates. e.g. "She is the topic of thousands of books." is cited to a work in the 1961. That tells us something about the state of play in 1961, but we're now sixty years down the line in 2022. Might still be thousands, or could be tens of thousands, or might be that no-one writes books about her any more (OK - we know that last one isn't correct, but you get the point...!)

  The 1961 citation supports the statement that she is the topic of thousands of books as of the time of the citation, which remains true. The more current 2014 Cohen citation in the following sentence reinforces and extends the point other media. However, please feel free to remove the sentence about the books if desired. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  I have added time context for the thousands of books, and will watch for similar when I do full read through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• I'm a little concerned about the reliance on Sackville-West, and whether it meets the criteria for still being a high quality source (as opposed to Sackville-West being referenced in current high quality, fact-checked works - which is a different issue.)

  The article does not rely on Sackville-West in an essential way. Many Wikipedia articles reference biographies by authors who are not necessarily professional historians but are published by major houses. In addition, the references to Sackville-West mentioned in the article discuss the care of her research. discuss how she researched and sourced her material. There's no question it is an older citation. In my opinion, Sackville-West functions like the work of Thomas Carlyle's. It provides an interesting, readable alternative narrative of Joan that relies on the research, is accessible to interested readers, is historically interesting in its own right, and provides a somewhat different perspective on Joan. Yet, these citations can be deleted without major impact to the article if there is a consensus of opinion that Sackville-West's work does not merit consideration. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• Frederic Harrison's "The New Calendar of Great Men" - what is the justification for this being a high-quality reliable source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy etc.? Particularly when you read the quality of the text... (NB: the bibliography says that the work dates from 1920; the link goes to a volume that says 1892).

  Link fixed for Harrison, Swinny & Marvin. Now goes to 1920 version. Citation is also supported by Chenu 1990. Both sources support point about Joan being seen as a martyr for her faith. But please delete the whole clause "and her faith" and its citations if you feel the sources don't make the case strongly enough. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

• Captions on the images vary considerably and need some work: some give the location of painting, others don't; some make statements that need a source, etc.

  I didn't address caption issues as this was not mentioned in original FAR, though some have been updated in the editing process. If there were problems, please correct them. Wtfiv (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

  I am checking these on my read-through; yes, this is a problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:20, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

  I have addressed these (I hope) and pinged Hchc2009 to talk for another look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with Buidhe about the volume of footnotes. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  I disagree about the footnote concern(s). Many big-topic FAs are full of footnotes, which are an effective way to provide extra information without ruining the text continuity—I also don't see how removing information is productive in any way. There is nothing in the FA criteria that aligns with this complaint. Aza24 (talk) 02:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

  Buidhe's and SandyGeorgia's original footnote concern was addressed March 30, 2022. Previously to that time, there were 58 footnotes (wordcount ~2,600). Many were exact quotes from Quicheret's Latin text to address sockpuppet concerns. There are now 36 footnotes (wordcount 1,398). For comparison, the footnotes for James Joyce 54 (wordcount 1,920). The remaining footnotes are meant to amplify controversies and interesting, but subsidiary points without detracting from the text. Please delete any that are considered irrelevant or uninteresting. Wtfiv (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

  I/we have further reduced the footnotes (considerably)-- because some of the text in them was worthy of being in the article body, and the article is not overly long at this point, at 7,000 words of readable prose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• I just realized that I forgot to save a recent edit of the Joan article that made some of the changes to the article mentioned in the above statements. The changes in response to the comments above have been added to the article. Wtfiv (talk) 17:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

"Creative psychopathy" is a very concerning term vis-à-vis this article

I feel it pronounces judgment upon what this visionary and creative genius was expressing by calling her psychopathic. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am extremely well-versed in DSM-V symptom descriptions and diagnoses, and I feel that it is unfair to her character to call her a psychopath. I suggest removing it entirely. I'd love comments before I do so, just to make sure I'm onto something here. The myopia of Western scientific thought as like, the ONLY way Wikipedia tends to operate, means that her uniqueness doesn't get a chance to be subjectively interpreted, which is the purpose of visionary art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anktrumpet (talk • contribs) 06:36, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

It is sourced and balanced by the follow-on sentence. DrKay (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Agree with DrKay, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Wtfiv re this objection from July to creative psychopathy (which both DrKay and I disagreed with), now that you've had to remove the clarifying footnotes, with this edit, the creative psychopathy issue has to be revisited. (For the record, I think the footnote deletions are unfortunate, but que será será.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

As per the comments below. I put the footnote back in. But it is fronted by a cited claim. I will remove them if that is the consensus. Wtfiv (talk) 01:48, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Status update?

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:54, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Not sure if you're looking at creative psychopathy specifically, or status more generally. If the latter, I don't think my concerns listed further up the page have been dealt with yet. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:06, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

• • Hchc2009 Are you referring to your post of 08:57, 11 June 2022 ? If so, everything there has been answered; if there is something that is still not to your satisfaction, could you please clarify exactly what that is? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:40, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

    • Sandy, as per my original comments:
      • "The text is well below FA standard. Even just in the lead, we have phrases like "is considered a heroine of France" (considered by whom?)" - not addressed; "Her request to see the king was rejected twice" - who is the king at this point? Presumably not Charles...;" - not addressed; "Charles sent Joan, who was about 17 years old," - why tell the reader her age at this point?; - not addressed; "She arrived at the city on 29 April 1429" - does the exact day of the month matter for the lead?; note addressed. Similar problems throughout the main text, which needs a serious copy edit. I haven't seen evidence of this occurring yet.
        • "King" changed to "Charles", to remove ambiguity.
        • Deleted age.
        • Date removed.Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
        • Joan's consideration as a heroine of France is addressed, mainly in the symbol of France section, but feel free to change the word "heroine" to symbol.
      • The lead correctly notes that the first trial was politically inspired, but it doesn't pull out that so was the later investigation - as the main text highlights, the second investigation was politically orchestrated by Charles (for the opposite reasons to the first!) - not addressed, no changes made.
        • I do not see the mention of the first trial being politically motivated. As mentioned in 21 June comments, the only point I can see is that Cauchon is cited as being pro-English. This has been removed. Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
        • As previously mentioned, I'm not sure where it mentions the trial is politically motivated, except to mention Cauchon is pro-English.
      • The term "peasant family" in the lead is a tricky one. It is correct - it refers to the family's place in the feudal landowning system - but for many readers "peasant" is the same as "poor"... and Joan's parents were, as the main text says, relatively well off. Well worth avoiding the term in the lead - it will be misinterpreted. - this is still in place in the lead, no changes amde.
        • This comment was addressed in 21 June 2022 . As mentioned, she is a peasant. I do not have a better word. Request was made to provide a suggestion.
        • Wikilinked peasant (to educate the masses), and added the words of some means. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:55, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
      • Is it even worth discussing Caze's views from 1819, btw? - not addressed. Caze remains an early 19th-century historian who's overrepresented in this article.
        • This comment was addressed on 21 June 2022. I think it should be addressed, but if it needs to be deleted, please do. Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
        • "Overrepresented"??? She's cited a single time??? Aza24 (talk) 20:31, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
          • Caze is gone, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
      • Some "current voice" statements need checking for dates. e.g. "She is the topic of thousands of books." is cited to a work in the 1961. That tells us something about the state of play in 1961, but we're now sixty years down the line in 2022. Might still be thousands, or could be tens of thousands, or might be that no-one writes books about her any more (OK - we know that last one isn't correct, but you get the point...!) - not addressed, no changes made.
        • This issues addressed in 21 June comments. If you choose to delete it, please do. Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

        I added time context to that, and will keep an eye out for similar when I start my read-through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:41, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

      • I'm a little concerned about the reliance on Sackville-West, and whether it meets the criteria for still being a high quality source (as opposed to Sackville-West being referenced in current high quality, fact-checked works - which is a different issue.) - no changes made, remains overused.
        • This comment was addressed on 21 June 2022. I feel Sackville-West is a reasonable source. She is cited ~20 times, compared to Pernoud ~120, Gies ~90, DeVries ~60, Barker ~42, Castor ~20. None of the citations are unique, though they provide useful triangulation, IMO, with other sources. All can be removed if chosen. Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
      • Frederic Harrison's "The New Calendar of Great Men" - what is the justification for this being a high-quality reliable source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy etc.? Particularly when you read the quality of the text... (NB: the bibliography says that the work dates from 1920; the link goes to a volume that says 1892). - still isn't a high-quality reliable source, remains in place in the article.
        • As per 21 June 2022 comments, link in citation was changed. However, overlooked changing link in source too at that time. Change made. As mentioned previously, please remove if you don't feel it is appropropriate.
      • Captions on the images vary considerably and need some work: some give the location of painting, others don't; some make statements that need a source, etc. - remains unaddressed.
        • I didn't work with the captions, they weren't part of the original FAR concerns. But they have been addressed now.Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

        I have worked on those and pinged Hchc2009 to talk for review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:42, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

      • I agree with Buidhe about the volume of footnotes. - no changes made
        • I think all the footnotes add interesting content, but please remove any you feel are extraneous. Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
          • Footnotes have been reduced, considerably. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
    • So still oppose on the basis of quality of text/writing, use of sources, footnotes etc. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

      Thank you, Hchc2009. I will wait then, for Wtfiv's further responses before doing my read-through, other than to add that I disagree re the footnotes. They have been adjusted since my earlier comment, and I can't find any of them to complain about. They seem commensurate for an article of this size and with this amount of research and controversy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:51, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Nikki, I have been intending to do a full read-through for some time, but real life got messy. I am still intending, but need a solid block of uninterrupted time for full focus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:26, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I'll wait, then, for Wtfiv to finish addressing Hchc2009's comments. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:53, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Wtfiv? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:29, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello Reviewers. I'd like to register that this process is frustrating. I chose to do FAR instead of FAN, as I preferred to do cleanup instead of advocating for why my version of an article deserves to be a featured article. When I joined this FAR, I cleaned up all the original points that put this article on FAR. As Nikkimaria knows, this was incredibly difficult in this article. (For example, Nikkimaria tried to remove some of the recommended reading, but was reverted. Working with the editors who monitor this cite, we were able to eventually get consensus.)

In addition, this article was also deeply embedded in a long-term sockpuppet issues (particularly vast numbers of unverifiable citations, misleading citations, and the like), I wound up leading to a fairly substantial rewrite after all. But, I did my best to keep the general forms of what was required. I've also tried to address the concerns of reviewers as best as possible. (e.g., changing the lead to four paragraphs, changing writing and format.)

But at this point, I continue to address concerns . At least ones about prose editing and style. (See all my responses in the FAR above). But I feel like I'm back at what I do like about FAN. As you can see, I feel I am asked to make changes that I feel are more a matter of perspective that I may not agree with (e.g., validity of sources, length of footnotes). I have addressed why I didn't make the changes I did, but I also mentioned that I was open to other editors making the majority of changes if they disagree.

I would request that approval of this article not be contingent on my having to make changes I may not agree with to get approval (e.g., quality of sources and footnotes). That is what I disliked about FAN. But, I am comfortable with any concerned reviewer coming in to make the changes themselves, if they feel they are improving the article. Given the amount of work done in terms of text/source integrity with multiple linked sources, addressing original concerns, and- with some help- working through the effects of a long-term alleged sockpuppet on this article- I'm hoping approval my work addressing the original FAR concerns will result in the article maintaining its FAR status. Though I am biased by my investment of effort and there is always room for more improvement, I think the article is far improved in quality even when it was listed as a featured article. Thank you for your consideration. Wtfiv (talk) 19:55, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I have started my review on talk; I expect it to take three or four days at least, and will keep commentary there in the meantime, summarizing back to here when done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Buidhe I am still working through prose and other issues, but the footnotes have been considerably reduced. When you have a chance (no hurry), could you have a look? I believe the number of footnotes is now within reason, and I'm not seeing any that are unnecessary, but a fresh look from you with an eye towards specifying anything you still see as problematic would be helpful at this stage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Update. Wtfiv and I have worked through all of the article except a) the lead (leaving 'til last), and b) a few bits of the Legacy section that I'd like to re-work before tackling the lead.

I believe/hope we have addressed Hchc2009's concerns about footnotes, image captions and prose (except the lead), and Buidhe's concerns about the number of footnotes. I've pinged both of them but haven't heard back from either (Hchc2009 is not currently editing).

By next week, we should be ready for other independent reviewers to look through, and I'll ping them in when finished with the lead work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:14, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

FARC break for independent review

A first draft new lead has been installed (see Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive2#Lead draft 1) and the entire article is ready for independent review. @Aza24, Buidhe, Caeciliusinhorto, Extraordinary Writ, Firefangledfeathers, Hchc2009, Hog Farm, John, Johnbod, Serial Number 54129, and Z1720: also Drmies, who has been involved at Hundred Years' War and might have the knowledge to look at those pieces. Victoriaearle I know Ceoil is traveling, so have not pinged him; does this article interest you? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I would definitely oppose this article at FAC for multiple reasons: footnotes are still excessive, lead is too long, some parts of the article have short and stubby paragraphs... but it has been improved a lot as well. (t · c) buidhe 17:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Buidhe I agree the lead could benefit from trimming, but not to such an extent that review cannot progress at this point. Re: "some parts of the article have short and stubby paragraphs", correct paragraphing is more useful than aiming for a certain length-- can you please identify specifically which paragraphs you think need addressing? I disagree that the footnoting is now excessive; could you please identify specifically which you think are either a) not warranted, or b) better worked in to the text or citations? We are to a point where specifics are more useful than generalities. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

The lead has been trimmed to a very reasonable 487 words; see Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Joan of Arc/archive2#Lead Draft 2. Joan is not a niche or pop culture topic that can be easily summarized in 300 words or less, and sources say she is one of the most studied people of the Middle Ages. On the scale of grander topics, Second Punic War (a smaller article with 6,229 words of prose than Joan at 7,530) recently passed FAC with a 672-word lead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:11, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I would argue that nearly all the footnotes should be cut or integrated into the body. Furthermore, after examination I found issues with original research. Examples:

• "Joan testified she preferred her banner to a sword and never killed anyone." If this isn't covered in secondary sources I would say it's irrelevant/UNDUE

  Banner footnote deleted.

• "Biographer Frances Gies states that when Joan's family was ennobled,..." if there's a substantial dispute about the ennoblement, it can't be stated as fact in the main article text (see WP:WIKIVOICE).

  Footnote deleted. The sole source discussing the distinction between the granting of a coat of arms and ennoblement is Bouzy in a French Journal published by the Bulletin annuel de l'Association Connaissance de Jeanne d'Arc [Annual Bulletin of the Association for Knowledge about Joan of Art], a now defunct journal. All other sources mention ennoblement. Will go with them, rather than elaborating issue with whether the family name was changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wtfiv (talk • contribs) 22:13, August 17, 2022 (UTC)

• Lightbody 1961, pp. 133–134 argues that the claim that Joan was executed without a secular sentence may have been due to the biases of the rehabilitation trial. — if it's just one source from 50+ years ago saying so, it's clearly UNDUE and should just be eliminated

  deleted Lightbody's point.

• For "None of these explanations has strong support, and each has been challenged" needs direct support from a reliable source. Based on the note it's unclear whether this is original research, since the note just gives examples.

  added citation, deleted footnote, and modified prose. Wtfiv (talk) 01:44, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  Based on other reviewers more recent comments and a editor revision, put the footnote back in for now. But if it needs to be removed it can be. Wtfiv (talk) 01:50, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  Further discussion below. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:06, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Most biographers agree that there is little evidence that Charles tried to save Joan once she was transferred to the English..." seems likely original research since you cite a LOT of authors. Which one directly supports that "most biographers" agree with the statement? (t · c) buidhe 19:19, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

  Removed statement, slightly reworded to "There is no direct evidence..." Almost every source I could find that makes a pronouncement makes this one. Michelet was given as exception when working with suspected sockpuppet editor. However, a look at the link shows that Michelet is making inferences on second-hand evidence. Wtfiv (talk) 21:45, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

  Four more footnotes integrated into the text. Two were examples from primary literature. Each of these now have secondary citations. The changes are here, here, here, and here Wtfiv (talk) 06:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

There seems to be a bit of a Catch-22 in your comments (I could be misunderstanding). One of the (many) reasons one would legitimately use a footnote versus a citation is to explore and clarify those instances where scholars hold different views, even if/when only one of them, who is credible, disagrees. Unless I am misunderstanding, you are evaluating footnotes as if they were citations, and rejecting the use of footnotes to clarify when the different scholars say different things. With the amount of scholarship that exists about Joan, it's hard to imagine how one could entirely omit views held by credible scholars, and exploring differences from the main in a footnote seems appropriate for those limited instances; I'm amazed that Wtfiv was able to gel so much scholarship down to less than 8,000 words, and commend the painstaking and worthy effort. But Wtfiv knows the whole body of research far far better than I do, so over to them as to how to resolve these. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that footnotes could be useful in cases of disagreement. However, at least my preferred approach in such cases is to use secondary sources to state the prevalence of different views. For example, causes of the Armenian genocide states that religious and cultural explanations used to be the primary ones in Western scholarship, but have since become discredited as the primary cause, as focus has shifted to multicausal frameworks. (t · c) buidhe 17:27, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

There's quite a difference, though, in the (large amount of) research about Joan (Middle Ages), and the Armenian genocide (World War I) 500 years later. Armenian genocide scholarship may be still evolving to a greater extent than Joan; with Joan, we have what we have, until/unless something new surfaces, and it is a large volume that has to be gelled down. I believe Wtfiv has struck a good balance, in spite of having to deal for a year with a disruptive sockmaster. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:55, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Buidhe there are four footnotes left, and the lead is considerably shortened and well within the range of what passes FAC. Please let the page know where you stand, as other reviewers are waiting to proceed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:19, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks SandyGeorgia for the ping. I didn't realize until seeing all the recent activity this FAR was still ongoing, but, yes, have had the page on watch for well over a decade and offered some help re sourcing - way back in November maybe? Anyway, am tied up w/ a few appointments this week. Will see if I'm able to get to it on the weekend. A quick comment re the most recent and visible edit at the top of my watchlist: without having looked through the comments here so there may be a reason for the deletion, I'm a bit concerned about removing the text re the cause (or unknown cause) for the visions. We can't know what caused her visions; we can't even know whether she had them. All we can do is report what historians say, quite frankly as far back as the early chronicles, so I'm not convinced that material should be removed. Will try to dive in later, read this page, read the article, post comments, etc. I have a bit of background re Charles VI & Isabeau of Bavaria <cough, cough> (see FACs for that page and Bal des Ardents) so will make sure it all hangs together. Victoria (tk) 00:54, 18 August 2022 (UTC) Adding, it's back now, so yes, discussion needed. Victoria (tk) 00:59, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Victoria (and Wtfiv), I'm satisfied with this version of the Visions v. medical issues (reinstating the Causes footnote but fronted by a citation). (This text sits quite well with me when compared to what has been described as one of the strongest posthumous diagnoses in medicine, Samuel Johnson's Tourette syndrome, whose symptoms were so well documented by James Boswell that the diagnosis is rock solid; there is no such record in Joan's case.)

I believe Wtfiv has now deleted all the rest raised by Buidhe.

Victoria, thanks for the offer to help! Per your comments at J. K. Rowling, should I continue to refrain from pinging you ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

About to log out, will look at the various versions when I get back here. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I had offered back in Nov or Dec, pre Rowling. I will read through and post comments, and yes, am familiar w/ the material, but not offering to do any heavy lifting. I'm following, so no need to ping now that I've put this page on watch. Thanks for getting me here with the ping earlier today. Victoria (tk) 03:05, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, Sandy—I've got this watchlisted now, and I'll try to leave a review once Buidhe is satisfied with everything. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Extraordinary Writ now would be an optimal time; I have pinged buidhe several times in the last ten days, and there was no new feedback in today's response. Best I can tell, everything raised has been addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't have any further comments at this point. (t · c) buidhe 15:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Buidhe I believe all your comments have been addressed; could you please revisit? One footnote was kept, but reworked, per feedback from three editors who thought it should be retained. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Victoria

• I made some changes in this edit. One issue is that there has been a reevaluation of Isabeau of Bavaria in the past 2 to 3 (or more) decades and in my view it's wrong to blame her for the Treaty of Troyes. She had to sign because her husband Charles VI, who suffered bouts of severe mental illness, was unable on that day. Furthermore their son the young Charles, the dauphin, definitely was responsible for the Assassination of John the Fearless, and as a result during a period of lucidity his father Charles VI disinherited him before the signing of the Treaty. John the Fearless was a royal duke, a member of the House of Valois, and his assassination couldn't be ignored. Our article shouldn't blame the treaty on Isabeau, though much of the blame for the it was attributed to her for centuries until recent reappraisals of her role. Perhaps this can be explained slightly? Or put in a note?

• I think your edit about her signing the treaty nuanced Isabeau's situation well. I think the preceding sentences cover the issue of the assassination. In this article, Isabeau's role is minimized, but it does set up her being scapegoated: setting up the "prophecy" that France was betrayed by a woman, but to be saved by a virgin. It used to end this section, but we moved it to "Early Life". Please reword it more if you'd like. By the way, I added Gibbon as a citation as well. Wtfiv (talk) 03:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• A small edit here. There had been rumors that Isabeau had an affair with the Duke of Orléans and the young Charles was their son. There's no evidence for it, but if our article Joan of Arc vs. Isabeau of Bavaria is to mention in Wikivoice that she was an adultress then maybe it needs to be spun out and explained.

• Updated Sentence on the Dauphin's legitimacy to reduce focus from Isabeau. Shifts subject to "Charle's" status, shares the accusation of the rumor both Isabeau and the Duke of Orleans. removed note about Charles VI disinheriting Charles VII. I think this sentence covers the point: Charles VI accused his son Dauphin Charles VII, of murdering the Duke of Burgundy and declared him unfit to inherit the French throne And Gibbon, p. 71 also agrees the treaty of Troyes is the effective disinheritance:However, the Treaty certainly did disinherit the Dauphin.... Wtfiv (talk) 03:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• Notes - from this version: I've taken a look and suggest the following: Note a - move the sentence "At her trial, Joan seemed uncertain of her birthdate" to text. Either keep the rest in the note or remove altogether. Note b - move to text. This is an important point. Joan had absolutey zero (less than zero) authority re young Charles's legitimacy or standing as heir. He did, however, take advantage of her. Note c - no reason not to move to text. Also Luxembourg was one of Philip the Good's vassals, fwiw. Note d - move half to text. Keep from "Quicherat" on in note. Note e - keep as is. It's fine as a note. Note f - suggest moving half to text. Note g - keep in notes. Note h - suggest moving to text. It's interesting.

• Note a is shortened as per suggestion.
• Note b is deleted (forgot to delete early when inserting text about Pasquerel)
• Note c is deleted.
• Note d was left unchanged, except I deleted mention] of Quicheret, leaving only the English version by Linder. Similar to note c, I don't see how can be integrated. This is more an unclarity among sources- some argue she was illiterate, some suggest she could sign her name, and some suggest she may have learned to read. The controversy has implications regarding her signing of the abjuration, but I'm uncertain how to integrate a controvery into the text. As with the previous note, I'm open to deleting the comments or someone who sees the solution doing the integration. Wtfiv (talk) 03:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Note f integrated and rewritten into main text. This one may be important as the idea that Joan was canonized as a Martyr of the Church crept back into the article again.
• Note h integrated into text — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wtfiv (talk • contribs)

• More later. Victoria (tk) 00:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Adding ping to Wtfiv. Victoria (tk) 00:45, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks Victoria! I've tried to work through most of what you mentioned. There's some where I didn't make changes. In the case of your suggested edits, its almost always because I do see the solution like you do. But please feel free to act upon any comment where I mention I'm open to deleting or your giving a try to the edit. Wtfiv (talk) 05:48, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• Working from this version , there are now four notes, which is really good. I'd keep Quicherat - that's interesting and in my view why we have notes. Victoria (tk) 20:21, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• The Prophecy - there is some doubt/consternation in regards to the origination of the prophecy, or whether it existed during Joan's time. See this from Isabeau of Bavaria:

  Rumors about Isabeau's promiscuity flourished, which Adams attributes to English propaganda intended to secure England's grasp on the throne. An allegorical pamphlet, called Pastorelet, was published in the mid-1420s painting Isabeau and Orleans as lovers. During the same period, Isabeau was contrasted with Joan of Arc, considered virginally pure, in the allegedly popular saying "Even as France had been lost by a woman it would be saved by a woman". Adams writes that Joan of Arc has been attributed with the words "France, having been lost by a woman, would be restored by a virgin", but neither saying can be substantiated by contemporary documentation or chronicles.

References

I'm it raising because it might be worth delving into. I borrowed Adams via ILL many years ago, but have just ordered a copy so as to see what her sources are for that statement. I did find her scholarship of the era to be impeccable. There was quite a bit of propaganda swirling around (kingdoms were at stake (no pun meant)), and chronicles such as Michel Pintoin tended to support either Burgundians or Armagnacs. Victoria (tk) 20:21, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• Images: there are 9 images from the 19th century, yet we have tons of contemporaneous images on Commons. Generally we use images closer to the subject and there are plenty to illustrate the other character in the story. Here's a list of suggestions and categories. A gallery is in [[User:Victoriaearle/sandbox|my sandbox that I'm happy to move to article talk so as not to clog up this page. To be clear, I'm not suggesting you have to use these images, but I am suggesting that the 19th cent. images be swapped: File:Jeanne d'Arc - Les vies des femmes célèbres.jpg;File:BNF Latin 14665, folio 349 - Jeanne d'Arc.jpg; Charles VII;File:Le siège de Paris en 1429 par Jeanne d'Arc - Martial.jpg; to execution; on the stake; Pierre Cauchon; c:Category:Jeanne d'Arc in miniatures;c:Category:Charles VII of France in miniatures; c:Vigiles du roi Charles VII. Also pinging Johnbod for his opinion & stellar knowledge of Commons cats. Victoria (tk) 20:21, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• Cardinal of Winchester is mentioned in a caption, but he's also Henry Beaufor, regent to the young king and cousin (???) to Bedford, et. al. Needs a brief mentions somewhere imo. Victoria (tk) 20:21, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
• More later, Victoria (tk) 20:16, 19 August 2022 (UTC)