Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Canadian premier league season navboxes

Please see this discussion on the talk page. CRwikiCA talk 14:57, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Udinese season 05-06 help

Hi,

Would anyone like to help out with Italian sources for 2005–06 Udinese Calcio season? I am worried that people who don't know the sport are trying to get it unfairly deleted. Thanks. OscarL 08:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Joe Scowcroft

Honestly, I am mystified why Joe Scowcroft got deleted, and the assumption that Simon Marland's books are primary sources. The guy was an independent historian who focused on Bolton Wanderers history before becoming a club secretary. There is nothing primary about the use of his books. While at the AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joe Scowcroft, people say his book is a primary source! No it is not a primary source. I really don't get how an old fully pro league player, with a few paragraphs written on him in multiple different books and no one did a newspaper search, get deleted. This has to be one of the worse AfDs I have reviewed after the fact. Govvy (talk) 16:06, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

It was published while he worked for the club, so arguably it is a primary source i.e. it was written by a club employee. But more important than that is whether it actually contains any coverage of Scowcroft - can you confirm if it really contains "a few paragraphs" about a player who only played nine Football League games? Its listing on Amazon only says that it contains biographies of "prominent players". If he is only mentioned in passing in the book e.g. listed in team line-ups, then unfortunately it doesn't help to establish notability...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Nope, the first publication that Simon Marland did, he didn't work for Bolton. Secondly, independent publication isn't primary. People are getting confused by sourced books here, regardless of primary or secondary, if the source is publishing nothing contentious then it doesn't really breach any guideline on wikipedia, wikipedia states secondary sources is preferred, but it doesn't say don't use primary sources. You can challenge a source all you want, but if it is correct, it there for is correct, regardless being primary or secondary. Govvy (talk) 21:39, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I think you are getting a bit hung up on the question of whether that book counts as a primary source, when really the main question is whether it actually contains any coverage of Scowcroft. If it doesn't, then the question of whether it should be considered a primary or secondary source is not really relevant. Do you own the book or otherwise have access to it? If so, can you confirm the extent of the coverage of this specific player in the book? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:34, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

One paragraph and stats, which pretty much said what was on the page. Alas, not much I can do now, people clearly don't want a player article on a footballer who probably can pass GNG if they bother doing the research. Same old story, different article. Govvy (talk) 09:00, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

A big factor in deletion, is that there's not enough eyes on AFD. There's so many articles up for Football AFD, that some slip through. If you think it's worth keeping, have it transferred to your user space, see what can be done to fix it, and if you are happy with it move it back to user space. I've done that a couple of times ... and have had User:Nfitz/Nauru national soccer team on the go for 6 years now :) . Nfitz (talk) 23:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Edmonton F.C. (England)#Requested move 14 April 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Edmonton F.C. (England)#Requested move 14 April 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – MaterialWorks (contribs) 20:08, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Question on 2023 CONCACAF Gold Cup Group stage articles

What is the level of completion that is expected for these pages to exist? The four groups appear to all have been moved to the draft space without warning, and now the article for the main competition is no longer showing the groups. This is after the tables were moved to these new articles so they could be transcluded onto the article in the first place, so I am wondering how complete they need to be to be moved out of the draft space.

• Draft:2023 CONCACAF Gold Cup Group A
• Draft:2023 CONCACAF Gold Cup Group B
• Draft:2023 CONCACAF Gold Cup Group C
• Draft:2023 CONCACAF Gold Cup Group D

Jay eyem (talk) 22:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oh my. I already came across their attempt today to delete 2023–24 Serie A at WP:Articles for deletion/2023–24 Serie A and 2023–24 EFL League One at WP:Articles for deletion/2023–24 EFL League One. User:Onel5969 has been here too long to not understand that this is wrong and disruptive. Has this become a problem? Perhaps I've been ignoring football AFD for too long. Nfitz (talk) 23:47, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
• I'm finally looking at these draft articles - and they have now gone to AFD. But not one AFD - but four different AFDs - one for each group; and it's snowing. I'm truly appalled. Nfitz (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

  I have performed non-admin closures as WP:SNOW on all six of the AFDs listed here. They may have been eligible for procedural closes since they appear to have been content disputes that the user did not attempt to resolve outside of AFD, but that is moot. I will leave a note for the user on their talk page. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 21:37, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

• Can User:Anwegmann, User:Robert McClenon, and User:Spiderone Please read this thread, and User_talk:Onel5969#Footy season articles before redraftifying or rejecting 1992–93 FC Desna Chernihiv season. It was originally draftified by User:Onel5969 who has recently shown extreme lack of judgement and whose competency to edit in the area of the WP:FOOTBALL project is being questioned, as discussed in both threads. With 30 other seasons articles for this top-level fully-professional club, I'm not sure why this would not be an AFD discussion if there are concerns.

It would help User:Iliochori2 if you provided at least one or two more diverse references for each article. Perhaps from a newspaper or something? Ping User:Govvy, User:GiantSnowman, and User:Jkudlick. Nfitz (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

User:Nfitz - Your comments about a particular New Page Patrol reviewer violate the Wikipedia policy against personal attacks. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:39, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any personal attacks here - except those below that I'd already commented about. Can you point to where on this page this is? I'm not sure how Spike 'em's role as a new page reviewer is relevant. Nfitz (talk) 06:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

No problem. The basic nature of the page(s) explains, at least for me, the reasoning behind the draftification of that particular season's article—it functions as a basic list of facts supported by very few basic sources, which I thought ran counter to MOS standards. I am happy to follow the consensus, though, whatever that might turn out to be. Anwegmann (talk) 14:54, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

• My gosh, he AFDed WP:Articles for deletion/2023–24 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season. And it got through AFD (GiantSnowman?!?). Sigh ... Nfitz (talk) 00:33, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I ask for common sense to be use, far as I am concerned it's coming up too May now, which in a normal season would be the end of the season. This too early stuff from some editors is bull and shit! As for the Tottenham article, why is that a redirect and not others, inconsistencies in results? I probably be editing it days ago if it wasn't set to that. Govvy (talk) 02:59, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Why was I the only one to ask for the close to revisited? It didn't seem that consensual - and surely should have been relisted rather than closed. And I've asked User:Randykitty to do so. But yeah - we are long past the time of "too soon" deletions, blanking, and draftifications. The previous season article was started on April 4th! But why did you, User:Govvy, draftify last years' article on May 16th? Nfitz (talk) 05:01, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

What is bullshit is people creating articles when no SIGCOV exists. Stop moaning because your view is not the dominant one. Spike 'em (talk) 06:04, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

With all these snow keeps, User:Spike 'em, how is my view not dominant? Also remain civil - you can be blocked or banned if you make personal attacks. And no significant coverage? Have you done a before on these? Big media coverage of the Gold Cup draw. And are you really suggesting there's not significant coverage of the TOP LEAGUE IN ITALIAN FOOTBALL? These articles are created at this point, every year (or two in the case of the Gold Cup). Nfitz (talk) 06:14, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I was replying to you and Govvy moaning about the consensus redirection of the Tottenham article, of which there is currently no coverage. There will undoubtedly be some in the future, and at that point the article can be created. Spike 'em (talk) 06:20, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

and responding to this This too early stuff from some editors is bull and shit! How is this not personal? Spike 'em (talk) 06:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I find the use of the word "moaning" uncivil, offensive, and a personal attack - stop now - I don't know what the use of the word bullshit has to do with anything - obviously I'm referring to your personal attack. I don't see consensus there; with 4 of the 8 participants pushing Redirect, the normal action is to relist, as there is no rush. And why waste time deleting articles that are created at this time every year - at best they'll be back in a few weeks time - it's only about 3.5 months to the start of the season. And also, there IS coverage already of next season, such at this, this, this, and this. Nfitz (talk) 06:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Govvy accused people of bull and shit, which is what I was responding to, but you choose to ignore that. Comments such as oh, i've really disturbed the clique haven't i are similarly uncivil so how about you stop posting if you can't keep to the demands that you make of others? Spike 'em (talk) 07:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that either of those examples are similar - though I've certainly done others, and when asked politely I try not to repeat them - and I apologize to whoever I may have offended - there is no excuse for repeating your "moaning" comment. Either way, you can't use someone else's mistakes to justify your own civility - in fact, isn't doing so "disrupting Wikipedia to make a Point"? The issue here is the poor nomination of very notable (see all the SNOW speedy keeps) articles. Do you suggest User:Spike 'em that we should delete 2023–24 Premier League, which would be an identical action to one of those taken? Nfitz (talk) 07:43, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, I do see them as similar. Is a rhetorical re-use of someone else's language really disruptive? If you want to throw guidelines around, then how about OTHERSTUFFEXISTS? The PL article for next season has some meaningful content, which the similar Spurs article does not. Consensus is gained by reference to policy and guidelines, not by a simple vote count, and most of the Keeps in the Spurs AfD were just ILIKEIT. Spike 'em (talk) 08:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Once again, I have not issue, and never mentioned, the rhetorical re-use. My issue was the unnecessary use of the word "moaning".

Specifically with these "group stage X" articles, are they neccesary before the event actually happens, or at least as there's content for them? We are talking about creating mainspace articles that are almost exactly just straight transclusions of the tables in the main Gold Cup article. Group A for example only says Group A of the 2023 CONCACAF Gold Cup will take place from 24 June to 4 July 2023. The group consisted of the United States and three other teams, and then the rest is in the article itself. The group itself isn't independently notable at this time, so I'm unsure why there's such a vehement chastidisation of having it exist as a draft instead until the event happens. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:04, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Other references were provided in the AFD - at least in Group D - WP:Articles for deletion/2023 CONCACAF Gold Cup Group D Keep in mind, 2023–24 Serie A and 2023–24 EFL League One were also nominated at the same time - which were even more concerning. Nfitz (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

For the records, I opened a DRV for 2023–24 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season. Though it's probably in my detriment to mention it here, given most of the current attendees seem to support the deletion! Nfitz (talk) 21:11, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Questions

Where is there a notability guideline that is applicable to season articles about teams? If there isn't a special notability guide, I will use general notability, which is a stringent standard.

Where is there a notability guideline for CONCANAF group play articles?

The best way to persuade a reviewer not to draftify an article or nominate it for deletion is to show a notability guide— Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 06:51, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

You mean NSEASONS? Though Onel has been editing long enough in the Football project to be aware of this. Though surely with over 100 pervious seasons articles for Hotspur, this isn't about notability - it's about timing. A proper BEFORE is necessary before nomination for deletion - for the Gold Cup articles, this would quickly have yielded numerous articles about the various groups - not surprising once the draw is made, weeks before the competition. Besides, they were all SNOW Speedy Keeps - I don't think notability is at question here. Nfitz (talk) 07:33, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that the season will be notable when it starts doesn't mean that a skeleton article needs to be created 3.5 months before a season starts, when the only known information is one friendly fixture. This was the case with the Spurs season article. A sensible time to create it would be when the Premier League fixture comes out (in June?), and they've actually done some squad transfers too, which could be added to articles. Creating almost empty articles months in advance seems to be a sportswide issue on Wiki, but doing so doesn't help readers at all, if there's almost no information on the articles created. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:09, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, agree with that - The Spurs 2023/24 article was a pointless load of empty and incomplete tables with practically no useful information at all. It should have been in Draft space ready to move to mainspace when there was actually some usable data about the season. Black Kite (talk) 08:11, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Black Kite: I agree with you, that's how to use wikipedia correctly, but with the Spurs article there was one already in draft space and a different version in main space. I just felt the AfD wasn't really needed and wasting peoples time. It's peoples choice of words that bug me out. @Spike 'em: Generally people say a football season starts first game of the season, but in the news-sphere they start way earlier, friendlies and the summer transfer window starts from 10 June, that's only 44 days away. That's not that far away, so people that say too soon... really shouldn't be doing that. Govvy (talk) 09:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

10 June is probably the right date to create it then, when there is more information. 10 June is still 2 months before the season, but anything before there's decent information is too soon. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

May/June ... Sticks and stones! :/ Govvy (talk) 09:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The AfD was only necessary because attempts to draftify were ignored, to stop the edit wars over it. The article should only be started when there is useful verifiable information to add to it: if that is 2 months in advance or 2 days then so be it. I will use TOOSOON wherever I see fit, whether you like it or not. Spike 'em (talk) 09:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs

There is currently a large number of football-related BLPs that have insufficient sourcing. It's very important that all WP:BLPs are fully cited. Any help adding sources to these articles would be appreciated. A list of football BLPs with no references can be found here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:46, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I see that Anatoly Morozov (athlete) is on there even though there is one source, albeit a stats one that doesn't confer notability on its own. Also, should the article not be moved to Anatoly Morozov (footballer)? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

It's probably worth also having a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Unreferenced BLPs/Full list and Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/BLPs lacking sources containing significant coverage/Full list. The latter list has over 800 articles listed as lacking significant coverage. Hack (talk) 11:43, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

If it has a source, then even if that source is a database used as an external link, then it's not unreferenced. So all of those "unreferenced BLPs" are not actually unreferenced at all, just their reference(s) aren't in the generally agreed format. That being said, we should add more sources where they exist, and should be adding significant coverage too, but reliable database sources can be used for factual information. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Why can't I create a Genessee Daughetee article?

I can't seem to be be able to create Genessee Daughetee article despite the fact I have reliable third person sources to support it's creation see here. 1. FC Köln verpflichtet Genessee Daughetee: Vertrag bis 2024 - kicker , Genessee Daughetee s’engage avec le DFCO féminin (k6fm.com), 1. FC Köln: Genessee Daughetee wechselt zu den FC-Frauen (24rhein.de), Genessee Daughetee - Women's Soccer - California Golden Bears Athletics (calbears.com), 1. FC Köln: Genessee Daughetee strengthens FC Women | Express, Genessee Daughetee extends another year! / Vittsjö GIK - Football - Damallsvenskan - Svenskalag.se, ÖFB-Spielerin Sarah Puntigam heiratete Frau | weekend.at, Episode 2 : Genessee Daughetee et Sarah Puntigam (fff.fr), Daughetee Inks Deal with French Club Montpellier Hérault | Pac-12 Dwanyewest (talk) 10:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Dwanyewest: The player's name matches the string of an unrelated title blacklist. If you create a draft under a modified title (e.g. Draft:G. Daughetee), I could move it for you to the correct title in the mainspace. S.A. Julio (talk) 11:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I have created the article, it's ready to be moved to Genessee Daughetee Dwanyewest (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@Dwanyewest:  Done. S.A. Julio (talk) 12:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@S.A. Julio: the talk page needs the same function performed on it. Seasider53 (talk) 13:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Now created as well. S.A. Julio (talk) 13:06, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

@S.A. Julio: Genessee Daughetee Puntigam I think should be redirected into Genessee Daughetee. What do you think? Dwanyewest (talk) 14:34, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Sure, I've created the redirect. S.A. Julio (talk) 14:37, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

User input needed...

... on this talk page, Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Athletic Bilbao

Why is the page titled "Athletic Bilbao" if that is not the club's name? Literally the first two words of the article are Athletic Club and the infobox says Athletic Club. I'm also looking through the club website and it's clear that they refer themselves as Athletic Club/ Mwiqdoh (talk) 10:16, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME : Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources), the article continues commonly known as Athletic Bilbao. Spike 'em (talk) 10:23, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

The same reason we have Inter Milan instead of F.C. Internazionale Milano. It's not perfect, but it'll do. – PeeJay 12:03, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Cristian Romero (footballer, born 1998)

Can someone with move rights move the article back, it was moved without consensus. Govvy (talk) 20:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@Govvy: I have reverted the move. S.A. Julio (talk) 20:50, 26 April 2023 (UTC)