Help talk:Citation Style 1

The field "others" is not accepting the specified content

Greetings and felicitations. In Lore_Segal#Work there are nine citations for books which use "others = Illustrated by ___" as specified by the {{Cite book}} instructions, but the citations are still generating errors. Is there something wrong with the how the information was entered or with the instructions, or is there actually a bug? —DocWatson42 (talk) 23:28, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Maintenance messages are not errors. |others=, by its very name, implies that there are 'other' contributors. cs1|2 templates are expected to be complete. This one, for example, is missing an author:

{{cite book|title = Tell Me a Mitzi|date = 1970|others = Illustrated by Harriet Pincus|lccn = 69014980|publisher = [[Farrar, Strauss and Giroux]]}}

Tell Me a Mitzi. Illustrated by Harriet Pincus. Farrar, Strauss and Giroux. 1970. LCCN 69014980.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)

Presumably Segal is the author, but anyone reading that template in isolation wouldn't know that. If Segal is the author then write the template like this to include all of the necessary bibliograph information and still render as the broken template does (sans message):

{{cite book |last=Segal |first=Lore |display-authors=0 |title=Tell Me a Mitzi |date=1970 |others=Illustrated by Harriet Pincus |lccn=69014980 |publisher=[[Farrar, Strauss and Giroux]]}}

Tell Me a Mitzi. Illustrated by Harriet Pincus. Farrar, Strauss and Giroux. 1970. LCCN 69014980.

The above ensures that all of the necessary metadata are present:

'"`UNIQ--templatestyles-0000002D-QINU`"'<cite id="CITEREFSegal1970" class="citation book cs1">''Tell Me a Mitzi''. Illustrated by Harriet Pincus. [[Farrar, Strauss and Giroux]]. 1970. [[LCCN (identifier)|LCCN]]&nbsp;[https://lccn.loc.gov/69014980 69014980].</cite><span title="ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Tell+Me+a+Mitzi&rft.pub=Farrar%2C+Strauss+and+Giroux&rft.date=1970&rft_id=info%3Alccn%2F69014980&rft.aulast=Segal&rft.aufirst=Lore&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fen.wikipedia.org%3AHelp+talk%3ACitation+Style+1" class="Z3988"></span>

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah—that's what I was missing. Thank you. ^_^ —DocWatson42 (talk) 08:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Citing something jointly published by a work and a non-work

For {{Infobox US university ranking}}, this citation is to a publication that was made jointly by The Wall Street Journal (which should be italicized as a work) and College Pulse (which shouldn't take italics). Is there any way to use the |work= and |publisher= parameters to get The Wall Street Journal/College Pulse to display in the citation somehow? Sdkb ^talk 16:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable solution to me, or |publisher=College Pulse |via=Wall Street Journal Folly Mox (talk) 16:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable solution to me I didn't present a solution, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. The display I want to generate is the one in green quote text above. I don't think a standard |work= and |publisher= combo (or |publisher= and |via=) would be appropriate, since it would falsely imply that College Pulse is the publisher of the WSJ (and the via combo would imply that WSJ republishes content from College Pulse rather than jointly authoring it). Sdkb ^talk 16:43, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I misunderstood. I erroneously thought you were suggesting |work=Wall Street Journal |publisher=College Pulse. True this would garbage up the metadata a bit, but seems like it would make sense visually. Seems like there are better ideas below. Folly Mox (talk) 18:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Which one did you consult? Cite that one (WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT). If you consulted both, cite both but cite them separately. cs1|2 is not designed to cite multiple sources with a single template.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:12, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems from the cited website that "WSJ/College Pulse Rankings" is the title of a published series (often also published in other media, similar to the US News rankings and others), so would be good for a |work= field, with |title=2025 Best Colleges in the U.S., while WSJ in this case, because it's officially host on this medium, is probably the |publisher=. I'd try to use |via= only for a tertiary host. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Using the publisher field would leave WSJ without italics. Sdkb ^talk 18:01, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

PMID value update

Currently getting an error trying to cite the following paper due to the PMID being out of range: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39401844/

This help page says to report the issue here? Void if removed (talk) 13:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Cite thesis

It might be good if this populated a hidden category hierarchy, with leaf nodes such as "Category:Pages including masters degree citations" populated by degree=masters|MSC|MBA etc. There should be a bucket for unrecognised types, and the system should be easy to extend.

The motivation is that in general we should not be using masters as citations (or indeed doctoral theses, though these are less of a red flag) instead using published works.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough 12:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC).

There's also Bacchelors' thesis / undergrad class thesis that we should keep track of if we start keeping track of those.

While we're on the topic, I'd like an error emitted if the degree type isn't specified. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, I repeated this search for |degree= and the first letter of the assigned value. Except for K, N, O, Q, and V–Z, every initial letter search returned results. There does not seem to be much consistency. I did not repeat these searches for |type=.

{{cite thesis}} is used in approximately 36,500 articles. Of those, ~11,000 use |degree= and ~15,200 use |type=. |type= and |degree= are partial aliases; |degree= causes Module:Citation/CS1 to append 'Thesis' to the value assigned to |degree=.

If we were to do do this we should probably have two properties categories; one for |degree= and one for |type=. Articles in the categories should be sorted by first character in the assigned value.

But should we? Is anyone going to actively do something with the data that are collected? Past experience says that nothing will will be done with these data.

Requiring {{cite thesis}} to have either |degree= (preferred) or |type= seems reasonable.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Baccalaureate and undergrad theses should probably at least be tagged {{bsn}}, but maintenance categories for all the degree types sounds pretty unnecessary. Folly Mox (talk) 14:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Adding {{bsn}} (or any other template) is outside Module:Citation/CS1's remit. Editors have not chosen to be even passably consistent with the value that they assign to |degree= so it is not possible for cs1|2 to categorize only baccalaureate and undergraduate theses; that is why I suggested sorting the categories by initial letter of the parameter's assigned value. And, no one here has suggested maintenance categories (yet).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

If you want an explicit category suggestion, I suppose it would be Category:CS1 error: degree missing or some such. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:49, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Trappist the monk, for sure, I didn't mean to suggest the module should add inline citation templates automatically. I was responding to the question about whether anyone going to actively do something with the data that are collected. Apologies for the miscommunication. Folly Mox (talk) 16:12, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

In all of this, let's remember that {{cite thesis}} and other cite templates are not always used to support claims in article text. Cite templates are often used in lists of works authored by a person, in which case a tag like {{bsn}} would not be applicable. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:24, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Best template to cite a webpage that is derived from a book

I noticed recently another editor citing one of my favorite webpages Flora of North America using the cite encyclopedia template rather than cite web as I have been doing. Would it be more correct to use cite book or cite encyclopedia instead of cite web for this source because it is first published in book form? 🌿MtBotany (talk) 16:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

In this particular case, I think citing it as a website is better, calling it e.g. "Flora of North America Online", because, as noted here, some of the webpages have been changed from the earlier print versions. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Peter. I thought so, but better to ask than to guess. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 17:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Title=none in newspaper and magazine citations

In {{cite journal}} (and {{citation}} with journal=), when there is no title url or link, it is acceptable to use title=none to suppress the title. This is useful in instances where there is no title or the title would be redundant, such as for book reviews where no real title exists (the review is just headed by a few lines of metadata about the item under review) or where several reviews are grouped together and would otherwise be given the same repeated and redundant title.

Less frequently, this would be useful to do on {{cite news}} and {{cite magazine}} as well. An example of this is Freshman's dream, where (to demonstrate the wide spread of the topic idea at the time of its original publication in 1938), one reference lists the original newspaper publication with its title and then four subsequent publications of the same piece, with the title deliberately stripped. In this case, the source code for Freshman's dream includes some very hacky code to hide the visible CS1 error messages that would be generated by omitting the titles, but it fails to suppress the error category that is also generated. It would be much cleaner if these could be formatted with title=none, but that doesn't work: for news or magazine citations (in this case as generated by {{citation}} and the newspaper= or magazine= parameter), this produces an actual visible "none" in the title position in the citation.

One alternative for Freshman's dream would be to pretend that these are all journals and use the journal citation ability to set title=none. A second alternative would be to give up on the citation templates as unable to handle anything non-formulaic and format the citations manually. A third alternative would be to modify the template code to be less inflexible and allow title=none for those citations. Or maybe there is a fourth alternative that I have missed. I don't think it's acceptable to force these citations to have titles, nor to try to extend the hacky code already there to also suppress the category. Are the third or fourth alternatives possible, or do we have to give up on using citation templates? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:11, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

David Eppstein, withholding comment on the substance of this matter, but I did suppress the error category using a non-hacky method (in addition to implementing a possibly dubious format change). Please feel free to revert if desired. Folly Mox (talk) 16:36, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! So fourth alternative: no-tracking =y. We do still have the hacky error message removal code that it would be nice to avoid, but that's less urgent. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

DOI limit should be bumped

doi:10.70163/0036-0252.1157 is valid. The limit should be bumped to 10.80000 Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Why is Slovene not recognized?

Re Template:Citation Style documentation/language. Why is |lang=Slovene, as in Slovene language, not recognized for sl? (See Template:Citation Style documentation/language/doc for list.) —  AjaxSmack  23:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

AjaxSmack, have you tried |language=sl? Category:CS1 Slovenian-language sources (sl) (5,408) seems to be populated. Folly Mox (talk) 23:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Because MediaWiki does not recognize 'Slovene' as an alias of 'Slovenian' which is the language name that MediaWiki assigns to the language tag sl:

{{#language:sl|en}} → Slovenian

cs1|2 uses MediaWiki's list of languages when rendering citations.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Where did MediaWiki learn English? —  AjaxSmack  02:47, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the ISO? – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

author-link without author

Hello, there appears to be no trap for using |author-link= when there is no corresponding |author=.

• {{cite book|author=|author-link=[[Edward Heath]] |title=Book example }}
• Book example.

May be an error message should be output. Keith D (talk) 21:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I have wondered about that and also |author-mask= (and the similar |contributor=, |editor=, |interviewer=, |translator= parameters). We do catch |display-authors= when matching author-name parameters are missing and we catch |firstn= when matching |lastn= is omitted so it seems to me that for completeness, we should also be catching |author-linkn= and |author-maskn= when matching author-name parameters are missing.

I don't think that it is possible to search for something (|author-link=) and the absence of another thing (|author= or alias) so I have no idea how many articles have the one without the other. We could categorize into maint or properties cats to gauge whether or not to turn on error messaging for these parameter issues.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

A maintenance cat would give us the scope of the problem. Keith D (talk) 11:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

cite thesis first=aaa bbb, Jr.

|first=James Thomas, Jr.

causes

Script warning: One or more {{cite thesis}} templates have maintenance messages; messages may be hidden (help).

69.181.17.113 (talk) 15:00, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course. See MOS:JR.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:31, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Way to link the encyclopedia with {{cite encyclopedia}}

When you're citing a book with the cite book template, you can use title-link= to link to the book's wikipedia article, but since on cite encyclopedia the title parameter is for the chapter and not the work title, it doesn't let you link to the encyclopedia. Is there any fix for this, because I find it very annoying. Generally this template just seems to be a slightly worse version of {{Cite book}}, which fulfills its purpose the same way. Maybe they should be merged? PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

PARAKANYAA, use |entry= and |title= instead of |title= and |encyclopaedia=. This will alias correctly and allow for usage of |title-link=. Your assessment of a slightly worse version of {{Cite book}} is shared. Folly Mox (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

See also Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 92 § cite encyclopedia (January 2024). Folly Mox (talk) 12:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

strange capitalization

Why was {{cite web}} unilaterally capitalized in the documentation just recently? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 18:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Editor MtBotany made that edit. Best to ask them. So far as I know, there was no discussion here mandating that change.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd planned to ask at template talk:cite web (per my original wording), but figured here was the only place to ask, given the redirection. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fourthords I thought it was the correct style based on what I have seen used in other templates. If I am wrong I apologize and feel free to correct what I did. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 18:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea whether you were incorrect to do so; that's why I asked. What I can say is that it doesn't match the documentations at {{cite book}}, {{cite magazine}}, {{cite news}}, and {{cite journal}}. — Fourthords | =Λ= | 20:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

You're right about that. I assumed that all templates used the same style of first letter capitalized to match with the way it is in the name of the page. I had also seen it capitalized that way in the documentation of Template:Reflist. It does work either way, but I was trying for consistency and made things more confused rather than less. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 20:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

SSRN update request

Rio do Rasto Formation has this working SSRN link but it's being flagged as incorrect. Category:CS1 errors: SSRN said to mention it here as it's above the 4900000 range. Thanks! MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

PMC limit update

PMC 11508991 - 11508991 - confirmed by pmid & doi @ Anderus maculifrons - ref 3 and also others new 6245 & 6159 checked from errors: PMC Dave-okanagan (talk) 07:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Work vs. Publisher

This template includes both "work" and "publisher" - what then is the semantic difference between the two? Also, in what circumstance might both be utilised?
Enquire (talk) 21:01, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

See Help:Citation Style 1 § Work and publisher.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikibooks for CS1|2

Looking at the above discussion about Help:Citation Style 1 § documentation for work and publisher, it's surprising no one has ever created a Wikibook for CS1|2. It would be genuinely useful to a lot of people. And could be better than current documentation, there are no space or formatting constraints. It's like the difference between templates written in wikitext vs. Lua -- one can be made to work for short and easy tasks, the other is the proper way to scale larger jobs. The CS1|2 docs are now large and complex. Here is a Wikibook on LaTeX, and other computer books. -- GreenC 04:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

URLs, for volume and issue and page

If a magazine/journal article doesn't have a proper URL, but proper URLs exist for a page that is being cited, or an entire issue that was scanned, or to a compendium; such as a hardbound yearly volume that was scanned; then shouldn't there be |volume-url= , |issue-url= , |page-url= / |at-url= available? Bluelinking the article title would seem off, considering that entering a DOI doesn't bluelink the article title. And subbing in an entire year/volume url under the article title instead of the volume id doesn't give a reader the article they think they've been pointed to. -- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 11:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

|at= and |page= will accept external links as values without throwing an error like the rest of the template parameters. You might have to do some manual formatting (especially if you're using |at= to link a volume, and have to leave out the |volume= parameter to offset— a form of parameter abuse someone here is likely to inveigh against).

Also, entering a DOI in combination with |doi-access=free will bluelink the title, for {{cite journal}} only. Folly Mox (talk) 11:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Cite what you see. If you are reading a book that is a yearly bound volume of magazine releases, then make the reference to that book rather than the magazine. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

What I can read and what I can provide a URL to can be different. In one case, I can access a volume URL, but I can access a physical copy, which is just an issue. It would be nice if page/at had URL params. I'll give the URL encoded in page/at params a go, to link to the particular point where a piece referenced data occurs -- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 22:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

While |page-url= would be nice, |page=[url#page=pdfpage pageno] works well.-- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)