Talk:Glenn Beck

Woodrow Wilson

Wilson "influenced" by various Progressives, and how this was the foundation for the New Deal of FDR.

The article states that Woodrow Wilson was "influenced" by various people that Beck is careful to state worked with Wilson or supported him. The difference is important - because most of the people mentioned in the article are younger than Wilson and Wilson came to his ideas long before he became President (see such Wilson works as "The State"). Also it is misleading to imply that Wilson's ideas came to their conclusion in the New Deal - both because (as Beck himself admits) President Franklin Roosevelt (although a Progressive) was a man less driven by ideas than Wilson was, and because what President Wilson actually wanted for the future. (as shown, for example, by "Philip Dru: Administrator" written by his "other self" E. M. House) was a lot more radical than the New Deal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.107.238.164 (talk) 17:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

New Book

This upcoming book is covered in secondary sources Huffington Post and the Colbert Report in addition to Beck's own website. That makes it notable and not self promotion.

August 28th 2010, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, he is to unveil his upcoming book The Plan. This day and place happens to be the same as the I Have a Dream speech. Alatari (talk) 09:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Beck publishing a new novel is notable for his biography and having been sourced from elsewhere than his blog you'll need to come up with a serious Wikipedia guideline reason why we should not list his next book and the controversial way he plans on releasing it. Alatari (talk) 09:31, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a Crystal Ball. Manufactured criticism months before something is to occur from partisan websites is not notable enough for a future event. There is no evidence that this event, should it happen, would be much of a story. Arzel (talk) 15:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

We're not stating when the book will be released, just that it is currently planned to be released. The current plans to release it are in the present, not the future. Ink Falls 18:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but, a notable person, like Beck, releasing a book would be a notable event. Almost regardless of the sales numbers. The statement in question isn't "he may release a book". That would be speculation on future events. The statement is "It's been reported that he plans to release a book", the reporting of it is in the past. It can be verified that Huffington Post has reported that Beck will release a book. That statement should stand. Padillah (talk) 18:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Statement that he is releasing a book is fine. Statement that the release will be controversial because he might do something in the future is a future event. Huffington is nothing more than a partisan attack on Beck on a possible future act. Arzel (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

What part of the above has any of the HP criticism in it? I didn't see any criticism, I saw notation on a date and time that may not be notable, but the statement didn't criticize him for it. Padillah (talk) 21:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The location and anniversary of the I Have A Dream speech is a bit notable. Alatari (talk) 21:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

If Beck were pointedly drawing a parallel then yeah, it would be notable. But the simple chance occurrence of something on some date in some place is not notable. Are we going to tag everything that happens that day with a note saying it happened on the same day as the I Have A Dream speech? If Beck draws a parallel then that deserves to be pointed out (and any criticism of that parallel needs to be included as well) but simply having it on that day in that place doesn't mean anything.Padillah (talk) 01:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

He is unveiling the book at the actual feet of the Lincoln Memorial and a secondary reliable source MADE the connection. Secondary sources are what Wikipedia is primarily based upon. Use of primary sources is harder and you are right, Beck doesn't make the connection in his source. A secondary source exists (Huffington Post) making the connection. Alatari (talk) 15:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that a secondary source may have a right to criticize but not to create criticism out of thin air. You can't make an observation and then criticize someone for it. Having the book release in that place and time does not mean Beck is trying to draw a parallel between him and Dr. King. Huffington is drawing an inappropriate parallel and then criticizing Beck for it. If we present it then we should present it that way - not as a parallel Beck was trying to draw but as criticism created out of whole cloth by others. Padillah (talk) 16:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, sorry I was misunderstood. I never meant to record in the article that Beck made the connection. Colbert's persona (or writers or person) made the connection. Huffington Post may present it as a criticism but I'm thinking there are sizable numbers of people who would believe it's a great idea to unveil his book there and then. If you read my original entry to the article it was worded neutrally that the time and place coincides with the time and place of the speech. Leftist, liberal, progressive, whatever you call Huffington Post they accurately male the connection. If you want to add a section under controversy over the release date you could but I don't believe there is a major controversy yet. Alatari (talk) 18:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I searched again for Beck + MLK and found the leftist Media Matters making a strong criticism of Glenn Beck adapting MLK to his on-air persona. So maybe there is a section for the controversy section? It wasn't my plan to go this far. Alatari (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Uh-oh, we may have created a monster. I think we need more about the sources in the prose, like so:

It is reported on Becks official website that he is to unveil his upcoming book, The Plan, on August 28th 2010 on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Beck has been criticized for using the release to draw parallels between himself and Martin Luther King Jr. with the anniversary and place of the famous I Have a Dream speech.

...but with better phrasing and prose. Padillah (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict!)This isn't the first time the connection was made. A local paper, the Saint Louis Examiner, made the connection in Nov. 09. Here is a successful Google search on the topic which turned up several sources. I think there maybe 1 or 2 more reliable sources which make the connection between the time/place of the two speeches. I think politifi.com or the Philidelphia news source philly.com are probably reliable enough. It seems a hot topic on the left and it would be nice to find a right leaning RS. Alatari (talk) 18:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd be ok with the original wording though I don't see that it's that important to Beck's biography. If you attempt to write it as criticism, then we're entering a different discussion for BLP and NPOV criteria. I don't believe we have the weight or relevance to notability to make this anything worth including as directed criticism on Beck. If it's just a statement of fact regarding the time and location, that's different - your providing details in relation to the event. Morphh ^(talk) 18:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

IF he is being criticized then we are simply reporting the fact that he is being criticized. We are merely presenting the sources as they pertain to the subject. From the list of criticisms Alatari is finding we may have reason to bring more light to Beck's comparisons of himself to King. It looks like something he has done on several occasions and has been called out on it. We are obligated to provide proportional coverage to a subject. Padillah (talk) 19:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not that simple. Beck is criticized every day from numerous sources. You have to look at criticism over Beck's life and include the significant points that are part of his notability. This criticism is part of a tiny minority when compared to the main criticisms against Beck, and therefore should not be included on those grounds or in that context. We're not news - it's speculation on their part and WP:RECENTISM on ours. We can not synthesize a pov based on random comparisons to King. Proportional coverage in this case, with regard to Beck's life and criticism, is no coverage as it's insignificant at this time. Morphh ^(talk) 19:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that sounds like a rephrase of what I said - we would need to find more to make it significant. I'm not sure I agree that we need to measure the each criticism over the course of Beck's life, that's a little steep. If he has been criticized then we should report it but not make it more important than other criticisms he has received. I don't think many other criticisms in his life will measure up to the "Obama hates white people" but we can't just not report the various criticisms because that one had more coverage. There's also a question of whether the criticism is harsh or the coverage of the criticism is extensive. Which one of those make a criticism more or less important? It's a question of balance - will one note mentioning the comparison be out of balance with the rest of the article? Right now, yes. If we were to find many more outlets taking up this same criticism, depends on the outlet and the novelty of the criticism (rehashing old criticism isn't worthy of noting here, new criticism is). Padillah (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

As the release date draws nigh and if he stays his course I think we'll have plenty of new material down the line. I agree with the WP:RECENTISM suggestion and just state the fact of date and place and plan to unveil. Alatari (talk) 09:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Nowhere in my sentence did I say anything about controversy. I stated where he planned on releasing it and when. Colbert is a satirist and not affiliated with any political party so I'm not sure where you get partisan attack and Colbert's statement that the release date coincides with the MLK's speech is also a past statement. How is using Colbert's statements a violation of WP:BLP when it allows for criticism? Maybe Colbert's statements should be moved down to the criticism section. Alatari (talk) 19:35, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

To say Colbert is not affiliated with any political party is a complete fallacy. He has spent the last 5+ years lampooning the Republican party 4 days a week. Besides, the "partisan attack" comment was about Huffington Post, not Colbert. I don't know what they said but it wouldn't surprise me if it was indeed a partisan attack at Becks overblown self-importance. Padillah (talk) 01:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

He lampoons the Democrats too and he has Republican and conservative guests on his show regularly. From a Washington Post interview Colbert, whose office is adorned with a 1972 Richard Nixon campaign poster, admits to being a Democrat. But, he says, "I'm not someone with a particular political ax to grind. I'm a comedian. I love hypocrisy." So like I said before he wants to be a satirist attacking hypocrisy wherever he can find it. Besides attacking Beck, who is such a high rated personality, gets Colbert a Beck ratings bump. Alatari (talk) 15:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

'Cause Colbert needs the help, right. Beck's almost universally incoherent and bumbling rants aren't reason enough to lampoon him, it has to be for the ratings. Anyway, that is not what you put forward earlier. You said he was "not affiliated with any political party". By his own admission he's a Democrat. That affiliates him with a political party. You may want to check out the difference between Stephen Colbert and Stephen Colbert. The part he plays on the show is a farce. He has Republican and conservative guests on his show to attack and embarrass them. None of which makes the "attack" referred to above come from Colbert. Padillah (talk) 16:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm differentiating between a card-carrying donating member of the Democratic Party, an employee of the party or a voter that votes Democratic. I agree he embarrasses them some of the time but they keep showing up. Your distinction on character vs. person is noted but I haven't seen another article differentiating between a critic and a critic's persona. I'll be interested in how you would handle that. Alatari (talk) 18:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

That's because, to your original point, most critics are not entertainers too. He's been pretty clear about the distinction between his person and the character on his show. I would leave any reference as "The Colbert Report said..." and leave it at that. This way we don't have to worry about attributing the wrong outlook. Padillah (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Colbert (the person) admits he more than just "leans" to the Left. He said he "found out" he was a liberal during his work with John Stewart. (Of course it was just "found out"; Stewart had no influence on that at all, no. He's also just an objective guy who makes fun of both sides equally, I'm sure. Yeah.) Not that any objective person who is informed on the subject would need such an admission to see something so obvious. There are valid distinctions to be drawn between "the character" and "the person," but some of the distinctions his defenders draw are not supported by the evidence. -- Glynth (talk) 22:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism

Of possible relevance w/regard the article's "Influences" and "Public reception" sections?: I note that commentator David Weigel predicts that the material in the unauthorized biography of Beck by Alexander Zaitchik about Beck's religion will spark some controversy.[1]. My own take, from excerpt[2] published on-line, is that Zaitchik is maybe a bit hamfisted in his tone here and there and could have erred more on the side of delicacy when making generalizations about his subject's faith...but, that said, Z. nonetheless appears to have done quite a bit of research about Beck's background and philosophical underpinnings and does make some interesting--if, indeed, overtly polemical--observations.--71.187.173.34 (talk) 20:54, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Beck as "Skousenite": "Of Beck and the Birchers", 25Jun2010 National Review Online--71.187.173.34 (talk) 03:52, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

A rebuttal, of sorts: "I would love too invite Cleon Skousen to dinner"----71.187.173.34 (talk) 06:33, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

What exactly is the news here? Weigel, disgraced profane conservative-hater, predicting ill tidings for Beck? An unauthorized biography published by a Beck-hater is going to spread "controversy"? The Left doesn't like Skousen? Anti-Mormonism is alive in the 21st Century? All seems old hat to me. -- 76.27.73.7 (talk) 22:39, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

--More

1. OpEdNews (28Jun2010): "Beck may be the only non-straight-jacketed individual on the planet to find the works of discredited Mormon historian W. Cleon Skousen to be of any value at all, let alone central to his very being."
2. Nat'l Review (again; 28Jun2010): "(...A) few famous conservatives(...)wrote me in defense of Skousen's 5,000 Year Leap, which by their accounts is a worthy love letter to the Founders and free of the paranoia that marked much of his other work."--151.198.55.103 (talk) 22:35, 28 June 2010 (UTC)FrancesHodgsonBurnett'sTheSecretGarden (talk) 22:21, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
3. Alex Zaitchik in the HuffPo (5Jul2010): "Beck has repeatedly, respectfully, and recently played audio of men like Ezra Taft Benson, a Mormon apostle who thought the civil rights movement was a dastardly communist plot." (Wlink: Ezra Taft Benson.)--FrancesHodgsonBurnett'sTheSecretGarden (talk) 22:19, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Continetti of The Weekly Standard additions

I reverted some changes from this morning. Some of the content may be fine, but as a bulk addition, there was too many core policy violations. So I'll start a discussion so we can work through some of it. The obvious.. WP:STRUCTURE and WP:UNDUE. 4000+ sourced to Matthew Continetti of The Weekly Standard - major undue weight here. Maybe worth a sentence or two for the opinion (which is heavy on synthesis) or might be useful as additional sourcing for facts, but can't be used to source paragraphs of opinion content. The quotes add even more undue weight to this source. Morphh ^(talk) 13:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I thought the added material was excellent! Perhaps it could be cut a bit though.

Since there have been a number of other pieces of serious political commentary about Beck's leanings and their sources at various Progressive and Conservative venues, perhaps Continetti's analysis could be compared and contrasted with that of other scholars, as well?--72.76.35.108 (talk) 17:41, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Morphh, [1] You have yet to demonstrate any specific examples of how these additions were "WP:NPOV or WP:BLP" as you state in your edit summary. [2] Per WP:Weight, all of Continetti's views can easily be supported by additional references (and should be). Moreover, Wp:Synth would not apply to Continetti himself. [3] If you find the source to be undue, then a better solution is for you to address the matters specifically with edit summaries, rather than one sweeping revert i.e. (a scalpel rather than a sword). [4] Per your weight concerns, I have --> removed the large Continetti quote as an attempt at WP:Collaboration. [5] Continetti is a conservative himself, writing for the conservative Weekly Standard and does not have an ideological (pov) axe to grind against Beck. In fact, Continetti just published an entire book defending Sarah Palin. [6] Beck's number one stated "nemesis" is what he deems "progressivism", why would there not be a limited section devoted to this overarching hypothesis of his?   Redthoreau -- (talk) 01:07, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It is not up to me to demonstrate. Per policy, it is up to the person adding content to the BLP to demonstrate that all the criteria are satisfied when objections are raised, which you haven't done before reverting it back. At this point, Continetti's opinion is a tiny minority viewpoint in the life of Glenn Beck - violating WP:UNDUE. I don't care what side he's from - praise or criticism must be relevant to the persons notability and not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints - WP:BLP. I never stated that Continetti's views were subject to our Synth policy - I was commenting on his opinion and the weight given based on the body of content. I also think the headings added violate WP:STRUCTURE by segregating content into subsections based on the apparent POV of the content. We should not have a sub-section where the main article points to Progressivism in the United States. It's also seems bias to call it his "Crusade". And what basis do we have for quoting "Glenn Beck is a Skousenite." Why is it give weight as to deserve a quote over Beck himself or any other major media publication. It seems it is placed solely as a backdoor method to forward an opinion (and one that is due questionable weight) - WP:QUOTE. Morphh ^(talk) 1:38, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Removing the large quote helped, but I think there are a few more things to address. Morphh ^(talk) 1:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Morphh, I have further tried to accommodate your concern's above by --> placing Continetti's quote into the text body and by --> adjusting the "crusade" title and see also. I didn't intend "crusade" to be pejorative and if anything saw it in euphemistic terms that I feel Beck would personally endorse. Additionally, I believe that if you continue to be specific with your objections, that we can reach agreement.   Redthoreau -- (talk) 02:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - looks better. I'll take another look tomorrow, but you got the major things that were causing me issue. Morphh ^(talk) 2:11, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

As it turns out, the high-brow political blogosphere is relatively aflame with back-and-forth analyses/commentary w/regard Beck's so-called Skousenite & Quigleyan tendencies. E/g, follow the links put up by the social-libertarian and self-indentified eco-conservative pundit Andrew Sullivan here. Interestingly, Skousen was the patron of Utah's senior US Senator, Orrin Hatch's, entry into national politics and also had been one of the LDS religion teachers for Mitt Romney during Romney's undergraduate days at Brigham Young University in Utah; whereas Quigley had been a professor of Bill Clinton during Clinton's freshman year at Georgetown--and Clinton famously had quoted Quigley in his speech accepting the Democratic nomination for president in 1992.--173.63.107.126 (talk) 20:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

"Beck University"

--(according to CBSNews, Wonkette, el al) has courses "Faith," "Hope," and "Charity" 101, 201, and 301, with instructors David Barton (author), James Reist Stoner, Jr., and David Buckner.--FrancesHodgsonBurnett'sTheSecretGarden (talk) 13:10, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I have created an article about it; see Beck University. Stonemason89 (talk) 16:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not a university, and it doesn't deserve its own article. Viriditas (talk) 22:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

If it deserves an article or not is a mater of WP:NOTE and WP:AFD unless your suggesting the information get rolled into this article. Morphh ^(talk) 1:44, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm suggesting, and it should never have been created as a separate article in the first place. Viriditas (talk) 04:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Yale

Enrolling at Yale for one class is different than being "admitted" to Yale. The current language is misleading and should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.199.170.166 (talk) 21:18, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Error in Malia-attack section

Some weisenheimer decided to have Beck imitating Malia and asking her daddy why he hates black people. The line, according to the reports linked from it, was, 'Daddy, have you plugged the hole yet?'. I don't have an account; could someone please fix this semi-protected article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.118.253.101 (talk) 21:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Read all the sources, especially the ones that contain transcripts. Fat&Happy (talk) 22:34, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Early Years: needs to include his higher education, if any

Does he have a college degree or a high school diploma?  uriel8  (talk) 21:48, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

A highschool diploma yes. He attended a few classes at Yale in a special program but then dropped out due to not being able to afford it. He has since then received an honorary doctorate of humanities from Liberty University.208.53.73.131 (talk) 00:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Van Jones / Czar Controversy

Isn't it worth mentioning under this section that Glenn Beck repeatedly stated (both before and after Jones' resignation), that he was not calling for the dismissal of Jones? He would prefer the Obama administration not "cover up" the controversy instead of dealing with it. The popular response noted implies that Beck somehow succeeded at getting the administration to do something. --64.149.36.27 (talk) 23:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Make the Jews Pay quote

What Beck actually said was: This is kind of complex, because Jesus did identify with the victims. But Jesus wasn't a victim, he was a conqueror. Jesus conquered death. He chose to give his life. Jesus didn't come back from the dead and make the Jews pay for what they did. That would have been an abomination.

This is the exact logical opposite of what this article currently, falsely, claims that he said. This must be corrected immediately. 129.120.4.2 (talk) 01:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Well spotted. I have removed the sentence. If someone wants it readded they need to put it into context, its questionable if that belonged there at all. Spot any other inaccurate statements like that, dont hesitate to mention them here. Anything that may be inaccurate or misleading on an article about a living person should be removed. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Right. 129.120.4.2 (talk) 01:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Just looked through the actual source, in no way is it a reliable one and its contents were grossly misleading compared to what was actually said so there is no justification or need for anything relating to that Jew quote to be readded. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Wanted to point this out, since I disagree with the notion that Time (magazine) is an unreliable source. The web transcript is incomplete. The transcript does not quote the entire video. Beck did in fact say what Time quoted, starting at 6:39 in the video (which the transcript omits). That is not to say the information should be re-added (as it needs context), only that the transcript itself is incomplete (and does not prove what Beck actually said) and should not be used as a basis to claim the Time article is false, misleading or an unreliable source. Akerans (talk) 03:57, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Time magazine may be a reliable source, its questionable if their blogs are but after watching the video i accept the point the sentence Time quotes is accurate, its questionable if its balanced on that page, and the sentence that was added to this page certainly had no context or balance.

The same thing goes for the other sentence that i removed last night, about him continuing his "attack on churches that preach justice" which was also sourced from a Time blog. If either thing is going to be re added to the article it needs to be in a more balanced way that put things into context. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Haven't read in the article yet what the discussion is over here, but if we're debating about transcripts and a single source, and what the context is, then it's already undue weight for Beck's biography and should not be included. Morphh ^(talk) 14:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The Jew quote was this which i removed from the article and has not been re added.

"In July, 2010, Beck stated on his radio show that “[i]f Jesus was a victim he would have come back from the dead and made the Jews pay for what they did." with this source [3] .

The second sentenced sourced by the same Time blogs (which has now been readded again because the editor did not see my above comment in this section on it). The aricle currently says:

"As Beck continued his attack on churches who preach justice during a 2010 summer tour, both alone and with Bill O'Reilly, the multi-faith justice organization Faithful America began taking out ads in local media to coincide with Beck's appearances to counter his verbal assaults." with this source [4]

I do not think blogs should be used in these sorts of cases ever when on a biography, but if such sources are justified the actual sentences need to be balanced. So i simply removed both, rather than rewording. (the second sentence is now back in though). BritishWatcher (talk) 14:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

They should both be removed. We can't cherry pick quotes like this to present a pov WP:QUOTE, without putting it in full context and several secondary reliable sources showing that this is due weight (WP:BLP, WP:UNDUE). In this case, I don't see this at all. Morphh ^(talk) 14:39, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You idiots are missing the point. THE JEWS DID NOT KILL JESUS!! Beck used the phrase "pay for what they [the Jews] did," thus implying that he sees the Jews as having responsibility for the death of Jesus. To some people, this is not only historically inaccurate, but deeply offensive. The only famous person who agrees with this position is Mel Gibson. This is clearly relevent information about Glenn Beck, and to bowdlerize it from the Wikipedia article cheapens the site.

I'm putting it back in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fielding99 (talk • contribs) 20:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Beck says a lot of stupid things.. you going to put it all in his biography? That's not the way it works Fielding99. Regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, it has to follow the policies of the encyclopedia. At this point, it does not meet the requirements of weight via reliable secondary sources that makes it something historically notable in Beck's biography. Also, in response to your comment - if I remember correctly, Pilate did not want to crucify Jesus. JOHN 19:6 When the chief priests and the guards saw Him they cried out, "Crucify Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Take Him yourselves and crucify Him. I find no guilt in Him." The Jews answered, "We have a law, and according to that law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God." Now.. I'm not a theologian and don't study this stuff, but seems like they had some part. But again.. It's irrelevant. Morphh ^(talk) 20:35, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Fielding99 may also like to read Sanhedrin Trial of Jesus, Pontius Pilate and Crucifixion of Jesus. The idea that the Jews had no role in Jesus's death simply is not backed up by the "history" books. They may not have carried out the deed but that does not mean they lack responsibility. (not that i believe any of these religious stories anyway)

but to get back to the point, the sentence does not belong in the article, its mention is clearly giving it undue weight and also any inclusion is likely to be out of context.

Oh and thankyou Morphh for removing that sentence again earlier. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Are we including Joseph, Mary, the disciples and Jesus himself? Or does JOHN 19:6 only apply to certain Jews? And what of the Romans? Why would Jesus want to make the Jews pay, when the Romans actually nailed him to the cross?

Rather then debate theology, why not let Wikipedia's readers make up their own minds? Or is that what you are really afraid of?Fielding99 (talk) 21:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I agreed, I actually was watching the show when it was first aired and was pretty shocked when I heard Beck say this. I thought it would get a lot of media attention, but the fact is that for whatever reason it really didn't seem to make much of a splash. If it hasn't had a significant impact on Beck's career or legacy it doesn't belong in the article. --Leivick (talk) 21:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It's getting a lot of press. Time Magazine is pretty prominent, and its on Roger Ebert's blog.Fielding99 (talk) 21:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

As Glenn Beck said on his show tonight context matters. It is very clear the sentence you are trying to add fails to provide context, gives undue weight, lacks balance and neutrality, and there for does not belong in the article. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree, Time is prominent. I also believe their blogs have the same integrity as the magazine itself. However, I agree with BritishWatcher and Morphh; the phrase lacks context and is undue. Akerans (talk) 22:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

If I can try to simplify this (as I'm not well-versed). Has there been any thought to:

• Adding this to The Glenn Beck Program, where it might belong since it happened there and due to an apparent lack of notability?

• Try to sneak it in elsewhere other than a BLP section titled, Viewpoints? Almost seems like this is being used to promote some kind of conspiracy theory. The term in which, rather oddly, finds itself in the lead.

And just a side note, while looking for a somewhat acceptable place to add this I came across a section titled Satire, spoof and parody. Is this really normal, or has Beck been made fun of more than every other commentator? I remember an SNL where Ben Affleck did a badass satire of Keith Olbermann. I guarantee it would never be allowed in his WP:BLP. We might reconsider the importance of that material here. †TE†Talk 22:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Let's review the issue. Beck said something which inadvertently revealed his true feelings about whether the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus. He said this on national radio, and was quoted in Time Magazine. There was an internet uproar, especially on Twitter. Nonetheless, Beck's defenders don't want Wikipedia readers to know about the quote, and are using absurd logic to defend the bowdlerization of the Beck page.

I am powerless against the mob. Do what you have to do.Fielding99 (talk) 22:26, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact remains that it went largely unreported by mainstream sources (I'll repeat that I find it a little surprising, but Beck says a lot of nutty things). We need to write a biography of Beck not report on every thing he says. This has nothing to do with defending Beck. The editora who oppose this inclusion cover a broad range of political ideology, but the common thread is that at this point this is a very minor thing to cover in a overview of Becks career. --Leivick (talk) 22:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the Huffington Post was kind enough to place the entire video and the context of the quote which Beck said and I believe I can clarify to most of you why this hasn't been getting a lot of media coverage. Beck was discussing Black Liberation Theology and how they see the Jews and the oppressors that killed Jesus and that (by Beck's words) "If he was a victim, and this theology was true, then Jesus would've come back from the dead and made the Jews pay for what they did.". It seems pretty clear that he is talking about Black Liberation Theology's views of the Jews killing Jesus and that he does not believe they killed him. Furthermore after reading the Huffington Post article and watching the whole video of what Beck was saying it seems fairly clear to me that this was a dishonest attempt by the Huffington Post to present the views of the Black Liberation Church as Beck was explaining them as Beck's own views.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Social justice and Rev. Jim Wallis section

I have concerns about the way this is worded and the fact it depends on blogs by one guy in the dispute and Becks radio show transcript on the other. Also "The media reported Beck was asking Christians to leave their churches ..." needs more clarification.

What do others think about this section? Ive just added the tag for the time being, rather than attempting to remove content. (except for the final sentence which was sourced from an unreliable blog responsible for a misleading quote mentioned in the above section about the Jews. BritishWatcher (talk) 02:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I've added a link to a NY Times story which should be able to replace a couple of the other cited sources. I've also made some changes intended to add clarifying information. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

"As Beck continued his attack on churches" - is not neutral and there is no neutral source for that whole sentence.

"The media reported Beck was asking" - is that the whole media?

I still have concerns about this section BritishWatcher (talk) 09:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Edited to address those concerns. Better? Worse? Akerans (talk) 17:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

That seems much more balanced thanks. Have removed the POV tag. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Faithful America

In response, the multi-faith justice organization Faithful America[179] began taking out ads in local media to coincide with Beck's appearances to refute his position.[180]

This is written in clearly biased language in favor of the group. Compare with=

In response, the multi-faith group Faithful America[179] began taking out ads in local media to coincide with Beck's appearances that criticize his position.[180]

Implying that the group "refuted" Beck is loaded language. We would never say in an article about Islam-- "Christian apologists refuted Muslim claims". Also, the group is not referred to as a "justice organization" in the source provided. We cannot make up words to label someone's position if they don't say that. 129.120.4.2 (talk) 19:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

You're right, refute is too strong a word. Can change to criticize. Regarding the second concern, the Time source does refer to Faithful America as a justice organization. Akerans (talk) 20:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Notable public disputes

Can a registered editor please bold and title the first paragraph ADL and remove the last sentence from that paragrapgh which seems out of place? Thank you, --68.9.117.21 (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Created bold title. Last sentence looks file with the context since that is one of the things ADL charged him with. Morphh ^(talk) 20:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. But the last sentence talks about far left bloggers making the accusations? Did Beck respond to the ADL? If so, that would be better to include there. I am glad you tagged that section since I am not sure how notable some of those sections are, especially the ADL. --68.9.117.21 (talk) 21:20, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

See Also section

I noticed the Dances with smurfs article in the See Also section. Is a single parody even remotely notable enough to warrant inclusion in this article's See Also section? Maybe his television show, but seriously it has nothing to do with Beck himself.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:30, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Notability dictates article creation not content. And is is related (according to the sources) so WP:SEEALSO makes sense. However, if it is presented in the prose then it needs to be removed per MoS.Cptnono (talk) 22:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not nearly related enough to Beck to be included in a section that only includes 4 other things.

• Beck v. Eiland-Hall: Highly relevant because it was a major case with Beck involved
• Beck University: Founded by Beck
• 9-12 Project: Also founded by Beck
• Tea Party movement: a movement he's heavily associated with
• Dances with Smurfs: a typical South Park episode mocking someone.

Can you find one other article on a person where a South Park episode that mocked that person was mentioned in the See Also section?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 22:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't need to because we are discussing this article. If you have a problem with South Park episodes being used or not used in other articles you need to take it to a more centralized discussion. Did you notice that I mentioned if it is in the prose it does not need to be in the See Also section? May be ti is time to go through the section and start removing things if they are not in the body.Cptnono (talk) 22:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Done. If it wasn't in the body it would have been in compliance with the MoS. If you don't like that you need to go mention it there. The only See also remaining is Beck University which probably needs to be moved into the body as soon as someone gets to it.Cptnono (talk) 22:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Well I don't really understand the workings of Wikipedia so I'll just nod my head in agreement.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 23:29, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Ahhhh! Now I feel like a dick. Basically the See also sections just need to be relevant. Unfortunately, this sometimes gets all screwed up since things in the prose are so relevant that they don't belong and the things left in the See also section get this weird prominence issue since they are plopped right at the bottom of the article. It is even worse when there is no explanation as to why the See also is related (this article does that). After thinking about it I assume that the potential in your face nature of having that link at the bottom was part of what you were getting at since one episode of a show is not nearly as important as other aspects of the guy's life. I personally don't like See also sections at all for that reason and tend to use the main body if something is relevant but many many articles do it incorrectly and go too far (10 links or some ridiculous number like that, links that are duplicates of those already in the body, or links that even the sources don't connect). It should be all fixed now so in the end it all worked out. Apologies if I came across short or like an asshole.Cptnono (talk) 09:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

No no no that's fine. I just wasn't quite sure what your were saying at points. Thanks for explaining it to me.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)