Talk:Aleksandra Goryachkina

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Good articleAleksandra Goryachkina has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 10, 2020Good article nomineeListed
On this day...A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 28, 2022.

More recent picture?[edit]

She must be about 13 in the photo. MaxBrowne (talk) 10:39, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life[edit]

There are three reasons to avoid including the material about her current college studies and her current social media activities including offering of lessons:

  • WP:VERIFY "In Wikipedia, verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it."
  • WP:NOTADIARY "Ensure that Wikipedia articles are not: ... A diary. Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to over-detailed articles that look like a diary."
  • WP:NOTADVERTISING "Wikipedia is not ... a vehicle for ... advertising."

Bruce leverett (talk) 01:54, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Youngbabushka: Thank you for the courtesy of explaining your reasoning. It is reasonable, as you have suggested, to compare this biography with other Wiki biographies, a procedure that I have used in editing other articles. I looked at the biographies of the other seven competitors in the Women's World Chess Championship 2019. Two of them have no "Personal life" section at all. Some of them have "Personal life" sections that are laden with footnotes and adhere strictly to WP:VERIFY. This is true even of the article about Mariya Muzychuk in which the statement that she plays table tennis is supported by a citation of an interview on another website. I do not see any departures from this standard in these seven articles. Looking elsewhere, I see that the article about Magnus Carlsen has a "Personal life" section that is eight paragraphs long, yet every sentence is supported by a citation that the reader can easily follow. I would not expect the article about Goryachkina to be as long and detailed as the article about Carlsen, but it would be disappointing if it did not adhere to the same high standard.

Regarding the statement that she offers lessons via social media, I would be greatly understating if I said that advertising is frowned upon in Wikipedia. If I had not removed this, any of several dozen other editors would soon have done so. If Wikipedia were a free bulletin board on which to advertise one's services, it would soon be overwhelmed with such advertisements, and would become useless for anything else.

Regarding the statement that she is active on Skype and Discord, I cannot complain that this is difficult to verify. But what is the point? Anyone who wants to get in touch with Ms. Goryachkina would not come to Wikipedia to learn how to do so. Besides, people move from one social medium to another all the time; who knows which ones she will be using next year or even next month.

If and when she gets a degree from Moscow State University, it will be natural to include that information in the Personal life section. It will, of course, also be easy to verify (a citation would not be necessary, I think). But right now, it's not so interesting. People change from one college to another, or they change their course of study, or they leave college altogether, and it is not helpful to readers to try to keep track of this sort of thing in Wikipedia. But, regarding this particular item, if you think it is particularly important, I would defer to your judgment. But I would encourage you to try to adhere to the standard of verifiability.

Bruce leverett (talk) 04:24, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To the above list of guidelines about the do's and don'ts of Wikipedia editing, I would add a fourth:

  • WP:CONFLICT "Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships. … "COI editing is strongly discouraged on Wikipedia."

If you are "personally related" to Aleksandra Goryachkina, then you are severely limited in the edits you can make to the article about her. Among other things, they must be "uncontroversial" edits. If several other (experienced) editors object to an edit, it is by definition "controversial".

Bruce leverett (talk) 19:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Diacritics in Russian name?[edit]

Goryachkina's first name in Russian is given here as Александра. Her fellow Russian grandmaster Alexandra Kosteniuk's first name is given on her Wikipedia page as Алекса́ндра. Should the а́ be an a in Kosteniuk's name, or should the a be an а́ in Goryachkina's name, or are the two Russian spellings interchangeable, or are they different names?

Nadia Caraiani (talk) 04:17, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I tried going to the Russian Wikipedia articles about each of these two. That is, go to Aleksandra Goryachkina, and then look down the left column, and click on "Русский"; and likewise for Kosteniuk. It appears that, in the first sentence of the article about Goryachkina, there are no diacritics, while in the first sentence of the article about Kosteniuk, there is a diacritic on each word of her name.
I do not know if this is a reliable method of finding out how their names "should" be spelled, or if it is completely wack. I have never seen these diacritics in Russian-language text before, but there they were. Bruce leverett (talk) 06:51, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More about Personal Life[edit]

I was unable to retrieve the interview with Potapov, even using the Wayback Machine. I would be grateful for help with this.

The FIDE profile mentions that her father is a FM, but it doesn't mention that her mother is a CM. If her mother is FIDE rated, I could look her up and confirm this -- what name would I use?

It is good for a 9-year-old to have a rating of 1454, but I don't think that Oxana's current rating is suitable to be mentioned in the article about Aleksandra.

Would it be possible to find English-language articles or interview about Aleksandra's personal life? Most readers of English Wikipedia cannot follow the Russian-language interviews -- hmm, Google translate isn't working for me …

Bruce leverett (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I missed something important in the FIDE profile. It says that her mother is a CM. I think it would be correct to mention her mother's name in this paragraph, if I knew it.
It appears that Chess Lounge is part of Discord. Strictly speaking, this should not be discussed under Personal Life -- it is part of her chess career.
Bruce leverett (talk) 03:32, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Aleksandra Goryachkina/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk · contribs) 13:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Early life and background[edit]

  • 28 September 1998 - commas should be around the year 28 September, 1998,
    • I think this is normal for European dates (see Lionel Messi for instance). The second comma is optional (like the US date format), the first one is definitely not needed (which is different from the US date format). Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:13, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link table tennis
  • Two straight sentences start with her; could change the first one to According to her mother, Goryachkina largely taught herself to...

2008–14: Two-time World Junior champion, second-youngest WGM[edit]

  • generally as one of the highest-rated players in these tournaments - insert "finishing" between generally and as
    • In chess, players have a rating in general. Like in tennis for instance, players are seeded before the start of the tournament based on their ranking. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:28, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the second sentence, you can take out "five" before gold medals, as this is already implied (unless she actually won five gold medals per tournament).
    • I re-worded it. I don't want to make the reader count it out. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:28, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2009, 1½ points - 2009, finishing 1½ points. Or, you could say ranking instead of finishing.
    • Changed to "finishing". (It's not a ranking, it's more like a score.) Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:28, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • and was also the second seed - and she was also the second seed. Won and was aren't really parallel, so the sentence is better as two independent clauses.
  • at any of these - can just be at these
  • for the first time a year later in January 2013 - for the first time in January 2013
  • Early in the year - Early in 2012 because of the reference to 2013 in the prior sentence.
  • the last of which at her - the last of which came at her
  • behind only Hou Yifan - You might put how young Hou Yifan was when she became WGM.
  • in Wijk aan Zee in January, the third tier - put the year.
  • Take out "also" in the last sentence since you already have In addition at the beginning of the sentence.

2015–18: Teenage Grandmaster, two-time Russian champion[edit]

  • half of 2015, and first - I don't think you need the comma since these aren't two independent clauses.
  • would continue to earn many more norms over the next few years - would earn more norms over the next few years - Probably best to take out many, since that's subjective and indefinite.
  • over that span of two years either - Either isn't needed.
  • She did not earn any more norms in 2016, at best getting three additional redundant IM norms - Kind of unclear, perhaps She did not earn any new norms in 2016, though she did earn three redundant IM norms.
  • She could not repeat her previous year's performance at the 2016 Russian Women's Championship Superfinal, only scoring 5/11 - since the previous sentence begins with she, rephrase to Unable to repeat her previous year's performance at the 2016 Russian Women's Championship Superfinal, she only scored 5/11
  • Goryachkina had a better year in 2017 - Undoubtedly true, but a little subjective; how about Goryachkina earned new norms in 2017
    • Re-worded as "Goryachkina began improving her rating again in 2017" and cited. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:36, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think you need the comma in the last sentence.

2019–present: World Championship challenger[edit]

  • in March highlighted by - sentence is turning into a bit of a run-on, how about in March. Her performance was highlighted by
    • Split in two: "Goryachkina gained back most of the rating points she lost in the preceding few months at the beginning of 2019. In particular, she scored 6½/11 at the 2019 European Individual Chess Championship in March, notably recording a win against Rauf Mamedov, who was rated 2701 at the time." Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • which was being revived in conjunction with the dissolution of the knockout format that had been used for the past two decades - not sure refs 55 and 56 cover this. If they don't, could you provide a citation for this?
  • by a wide margin of 1½ points - by 1½ points
    • I think the sources back that it was in fact a wide margin. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure it is necessary to say this, anyway. I am accustomed to thinking of a margin of 1½ points as a wide margin, I don't need to be told. But if you really need to say that's a wide margin, then I recommend that instead of "by a wide margin of 1½ points", you say "by 1½ points, a wide margin".
  • Take out also in the last two sentences.
  • last classical game if this is traditional chess terminology, leave as is, but if not, regularly-scheduled game conveys the meaning better.
    • It is chess terminology (meaning not a "fast game"), but I can link the glossary.
  • She then finished - since the previous sentence also started with she, Then, she finished
  • Put a comma after Dzagnidze, helps make a little clearer.

I am not accustomed to seeing hyphens in "clear first", "joint first", "joint second", "career best", and so on. Is this some strange Wikipedia usage? Bruce leverett (talk) 16:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll fix that. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 18:08, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Don't need "the" in "won on the tiebreak criteria." Bruce leverett (talk) 16:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"She resumed competition at the Russian World Championship Higher League ..." - Does the word "World" belong here? Bruce leverett (talk) 16:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And this. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 18:08, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

International events[edit]

  • at the 2013 European Team Chess Championship. She scored - at the 2013 European Team Chess Championship, scoring
  • Link Georgia
    • I think Georgia is notable enough to not be linked (especially in chess), as with most countries. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the previous paragraph starts with Goryachkina, start the second with In 2016, Goryachkina made her Chess Olympiad debut on the third board
    • I try to avoid starting paragraphs with "In a year" if the entire paragraph does not take place during that year (or even in general). Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • She did not have a good performance, scoring 4.5/9 for a performance rating of 2328 as Russian finished one spot out of the medals - Undoubtedly true, but subjective. How about She finished 11th out of 20 on the board, scoring 4.5/9 for a performance rating of 2328 as Russian finished one spot out of the medals
    • It's not subjective because performance rating gives a clear quantitative measure of performance. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nonetheless, Goryachkina fared much better, winning the bronze medal on the second board and playing behind only Kosteniuk - Nonetheless, Goryachkina won a medal this time, earning the bronze on the second board and finishing behind only Kosteniuk
    • Changed to "Nonetheless, Goryachkina won a medal this time, winning the bronze on the second board while playing behind only Kosteniuk." (the last part is stating that Kosteniuk played on the top board) Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nevertheless at their next event, Russia won their third consecutive European Team Championship. - I don't think nevertheless is a good transition, since China's not part of Europe. Also, what was Russia's next event?
    • Changed to "Despite that runner-up, Russia won their third consecutive European Team Championship at their next event." Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Take out also in the last sentence.

National events[edit]

  • Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug is referred to as YaNAO at first mention and Yamal in second. Use the same one so readers won't think you're talking about a different place the second time.

Personal life[edit]

  • She formerly taught online through Discord. - Formerly, she taught online through Discord.
  • Link classical music, and if she mentions any favorite composers, include those, as Classical music covers a wide array of styles.
    • Someone else added that from watching the video (in Russian), and I don't speak Russian. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:19, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link football to show it's not American.
  • You might add to the personal life section that she likes ice cream, according to reference 56.

External links[edit]

Are the bottom two links duplicates? If so, one should be removed; if not, they should be differentiated somehow. I know the spelling's different, but if it's additional records for the same person, there should be an explanatory note.

  • They are different, but I removed both, as I don't think either is needed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:21, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Great article! Most of my comments are just picky grammar suggestions. Once these changes are addressed, it should be a good article! Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Sanfranciscogiants17!! I addressed everything above. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 16:44, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, passing. Well done! Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

fifth-youngest woman to earn the Grandmaster title as a teenager[edit]

When I read this, I naturally want to know who were the four younger ones. (This used to be "sixth woman ...", when I read that I wanted to know who were the first five.) There should be a citation or a Wikilink here. Bruce leverett (talk) 19:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's in the main part of the article (per MOS:CITELEAD): The Youngest Chess Grandmasters In History‎. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 21:02, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, missed that. Bruce leverett (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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