Talk:Anthony Eden

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Disambig[edit]

this should be a separate entry with a link from Eden disambiguation:

Anthony Eden (1976 - ) is a Java software developer developing numerous open source projects such as JPublish, FormProc, and DataBind. CTO of Signature Domains, Inc. in Miami, FL.

Amphetamines[edit]

Source for the amphetamines stuff? john 18:18, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I beleive the amphetamines thing is true to some extent, however!, and it's a BIG however, this needs a complete rewrite. The article discusses Suez in the context of amphetamines rather than the other way round. Mintguy (T) 00:52, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sir Anthony Eden?[edit]

How come he was Sir Anthony Eden; was he knighted if when and which order, or was he a baronet, and then when did his father die?

He was created a Knight of the Garter in 1954, hence the "KG" after his name. Proteus (Talk) 11:01, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

He wasn't actually a baronet, despite Rab Butler's famous witticism at his expense. The title passed to his surviving older brother Tim.Paulturtle (talk) 21:50, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Link suggestions[edit]

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Wikipedia pro-western bias: A. E. drug abuse cover-up[edit]

The Eden was a long-time drug abuser, who dosed himself with meth-amphetamines ever since the early 1930s, following an accident. There was an one-hour british TV documentary on Discovery History channel, where they researched the issue thoroughly and gave proof that the substance made him paranoid and the 1956 Suez War he made because he had visions of Nasser morphing into Hitler.

Other famous meth abuser was JFK who also started to take it due to injury (of the back and spine) and it made him reckless and he almost started a nuclear war where he spoke nonsense about sausages in a Berliner platz. Many western politicians are either drunkards or drug abusers, morphine and amphetamines are common even these days. Paranoids lead many countries and ordinary citizens don't even know. Dubya is heavily back to whiskey now, because of Iraq fiasco and public opinion loss. Laura complained about this to friends and National Enquirer journalists taped that. 195.70.48.242 15:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[1] has Bill Deedes saying "I was close enough to the Suez scene to know that he was relying heavily on prescribed amphetamine and barbiturate. His nervous system had been damaged by the gall bladder operation and the steps that had to be taken to put it right. He suffered sleepless nights and fevers." --Henrygb 14:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't like the wording of the Suez Invasion. Just the fact that the mention of Eden's motives, i.e. Nasser supposedly being like Mussolini and being bent on invading land supposedly belonging to other countries sounded a bit biased. So I added the fact that the canal itself has always been on Egyptian soil, was built by Egyptian slave labour and that nationalization met with popular support amongst the Egyptian people. (Canadianpunk77 01:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)).

Eden's operation[edit]

According to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5193202.stm), Eden's gall bladder operation was a complete failure - apparently the knife "slipped", causing serious damage to his bile duct. Hence the continued need to use pain killers. Unfortunately he also took other drugs to counter the pain killers. Some belived that his dependance on drugs affected his judgement during the Suez Crisis.

In light of the above (yours and others), should the article read that the Suez crisis led to the breakdown in Eden's health? I believe in Lucas' "The Lion's Last Roar", we see commentary from his physician corraborating the above (re: drugs) as well as notes on Eden's health contributing to the fateful decision, in what Lucas described as relenting to French pressure due to exhaustion. --68.50.30.182 23:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It could probably be amended to say that it certainly didn't help...

A learned article has been published in the United States about Eden's medical problems, evidently with the support of his widow, now in her late 80s: John W. Braasch, Anthony Eden’s (Lord Avon) Biliary Tract Saga: Ann Surg. 2003 November; 238(5): 772–775; http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1356158

The version of the original operation that I heard from a surgeon who was a contemporary of the first surgeon was: They cystic duct was clamped with a Mayo clamp. This was a standard method at the time. A ligature was passed around the clamp and tied. The clamp had been placed too close to the common bile duct, an by tying it, the bile duct was damaged, later becoming stenosed. (Today, in an open operation, the cystic duct would be exposed, a Lahey or similar clamp passed under it, and a suture introduced into the clamp, pulled around the cystic duct and then tied.) I don't know if the cystic duct was divided with scissors or a scalpel.

In any event, Eden sustained an injury which should not have happened, for a biliary stricture is a problem which is very difficult to fix. Eden clearly suffered bouts of Charcot's fever, ascending cholangitis, with the triad of abdominal pain, jaundice and fever. It's unsurprising that his judgement was impaired.

The Lahey clinic developed very considerable expertise in the repair of biliary strictures; the world leader in this field.

I cannot say if my source (Sir Ian Fraser) had the correct facts; it was related as an anecdote.

Korhomme (talk) 10:00, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Amphetamines, "speed"[edit]

"Eden was prescribed the wonder drug of the 1950s - Benzedrine. Regarded by doctors in the 1950s as a harmless stimulant, it belongs to the family of drugs called amphetamines – the illegal drug we now call speed." -- Deleted bolded as misleading. Amphetamines are not now illegal per se. Per Speed, that term can refer to "amphetamines, methamphetamine, and other psychostimulant drugs". -- Writtenonsand (talk) 22:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The Eden Trust[edit]

I was wondering of someone could tell me if the Eden Trust, a registered UK charity and whole owner of the Eden Project in Cornwall, was founded by or named after Sir Anthony Eden, or someone else in his immediate family. --Mark2196 (talk) 00:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Most unlikely. Despite Eden's well documented love of gardens and plants, the Eden project is surely a reference to the biblical Garden of Eden. IXIA (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

External links don't work[edit]

Somebody ought to go over the external links. Serveral of them don't work any more. --Maxl (talk) 11:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Son's death[edit]

I don't feel strongly enough to change this - but I would say we die we die rather than decease. Especially in war. And what does Eden "accepting" his son's death mean? Had he a choice? Rogersansom (talk) 11:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't have an Eden biog to hand to check (most of my library is boxed up after a series of house moves) but my recollection is that his son was MIA and his death was never proven. Lot of parents harbour false hopes under such circumstances.Paulturtle (talk) 03:29, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

The release of war criminals[edit]

The lengthy coverage of this controversial topic is perhaps disproportionate. IXIA (talk) 05:36, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

... and more generally[edit]

I wonder whether this article draws a bit too heavily on Dutton who is, on the whole, less sympathetic to Eden than, say Rhodes James or Thorpe. LymeRegis (talk) 17:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Libya[edit]

I'm not sure the current war in Libya is really relevant to Eden; the 2003 Iraq war where Britain and the US decided to go it alone without the backing of the UN might be a better comparison. (HantersSpade (talk) 10:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC))

But maybe the point is that, with Libya, Britain and France did seek a UN mandate and ensured that America was, broadly speaking, on board, despite apparent initial misgivings - i.e. pretty much the opposite of Suez. I understand the UN point, but perhaps the main one, in terms of realpolitik was the stance of the USA in all three instances. LymeRegis (talk) 06:05, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Languages[edit]

On one point, he learned French and German as a child and studied Persian with Arabic at Oxford, but do we have a source on his Russian? https://archive.org/details/siranthonyedenth012634mbp suggests on page 23 that he didn't learn it. Is it a matter of what we mean by "learn" and "speak"? Prometheus-1234 (talk) 12:00, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

He needed a translator for his meeting with Stalin in 1935 (although Stalin spoke with a strong Georgian accent which may have made him hard to follow). He had a bash at studying Russian in the trenches (at that point he was toying with studying Slavonic languages) with a view to becoming a diplomat, but like many before and after him gave it up as he felt he wasn't making enough progress. David Carlton says he learned Turkish at Oxford, but I'm not sure this is true - most books say it was Persian and Arabic.Paulturtle (talk) 22:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Spanish Civil War[edit]

There is lamentably brief and inadequate coverage of his failure to support the democratically elected Spanish government against the fascist coup of Franco. This "neutral" stance contributed in no small way, along with appeasement, to encouraging fascist aggression which precipitated WW2. I am no historian so i suggest someone with expertise write a para on this important subject.Richwil (talk) 14:22, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

The western powers had an agreement to keep out, as they did not want a repetition of July 1914.Paulturtle (talk) 16:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
On a related note, didn't A.J.P. Taylor once write apropos of Eden's memoirs that "he didn't "Face the Dictators", he pulled faces at them". Might make a nice addition if somebody can remember when and where.Paulturtle (talk) 03:39, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Standing Ovation[edit]

According to William Manchester, in 1933 he made "a speech that brought him a standing ovation in the House".

Applause is frowned upon in the House of Commons, although there have been a few occasions of it in modern years, e.g. Tony Blair was applauded by his newly-elected MPs in 1997. The normal procedure is a rumble of "hear, hear"s, or in extreme cases shouts of approval and waving of order papers. I suspect it may have been the latter. I don't have copy of Manchester (an entertaining read but hardly the greatest of historians) to hand to check what he actually wrote. Is this mentioned in the reputable biographies (Carlton, Rhodes James, Dutton, Thorpe)?Paulturtle (talk) 20:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Right, I've found a mention of this in David Dutton (Thorpe doesn't appear to mention it) and sharpened up the section a bit. No mention of a "standing ovation" either in Dutton or in the online Hansard record. Probably no need to be too hard on Eden or the government for this - Hitler had only just come to power and lots of people at the time thought the French were bullies (e.g. marching into the Ruhr in 1923) and that the Versailles Treaty had been unfair and unnecessarily humiliating to Germany, which was why there wasn't much complaint later in the year when Hitler repudiated it - indeed there wasn't really much of a consensus that Hitler needed to be "stood up to" until he marched into Prague in March 1939, at which point it was clear that "further negotiation was pointless" as an old man said to me a year or two ago.Paulturtle (talk) 13:29, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Resignation[edit]

Series of blunders?[edit]

Succession to Eden[edit]

Both of the books I've ploughed through so far - Rothwell and Rhodes James which is so obviously a hagiography that I wouldn't dream of using uncorroborated on anything other than obvious points of fact - say that Eden was not asked for his advice as to his successor (not that he was in any way entitled to be asked, as it related to the Queen's role of Head of State rather than her purely nominal role as Head of Government). I seem to recall Anthony Howard's biog of Butler mentioning that he too was scathing about the Queen afterwards, so perhaps she gave him the nod to push Eden out and then - entirely correctly - appointed Macmillan instead.

After reading about this stuff for about 25 years I seem to recall that some books say that this is an error and Eden was asked. So I'm happy to be corrected on this point of detail if somebody has a book which says different. I haven't had a chance to check Carlton, Dutton or Thorpe yet.Paulturtle (talk) 22:19, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Howard was wrong about many things. (86.133.85.45 (talk) 23:49, 8 March 2016 (UTC))

He may or may not have been, but on this specific matter Eden later wrote a memo (or 2, I forget), a decade or more later, stating that he had indeed been asked, contrary to incorrect reports at the time, that he declined to disclose his advice, but that events had turned out in accordance with his advice. Whatever that means. Eden had no love for either man. Clarissa did, however, commiserate with Butler for having been passed over. I have a great many notes on Eden, but don't really have time for article-writing at the moment.Paulturtle (talk) 03:01, 27 March 2016 (UTC) And as Michael Jago points out in his recent biography of Rab Butler, whatever advice Eden gave, he cannot (assuming he was later telling the truth) have endorsed Butler as his successor. He may have endorsed Macmillan, or he may have advised the Queen to have a straw poll taken of the Cabinet (as actually happened), or some other logical possibility.Paulturtle (talk) 21:00, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Anthony Eden/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Article has a lot of material and pictures. Tom 11:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Article needs more than that to be A-class.--Rmky87 21:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC) Quote: in later years [Eden] was often wrongly supposed to have resigned as Foreign Secretary in protest at the Munich Agreement. Unquote. Eden resigned in Febuary, 1938. The Munich agreement was signed in September, 1938. No one could suppose he resigned as a result of the Munich agreement.

Mmayers. Mmayers (talk) 05:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Last edited at 05:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 07:58, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Mmayers, whoever he may be, was being a little obtuse. Poorly-informed people often "wrongly" suppose things which are clearly false, especially when such factoids serve to promote their political world view. Julian Critchley, in his 1987 biography of Michael Heseltine, makes that incorrect claim about Eden (writing after Westland, he was making the point that a politician can cement his reputation as an A-Lister by a dramatic resignation on a "matter of principle"). I have a page number kicking around somewhere, but as no drive-by nuisance has seen fit to tag the statement I'm not going to look for it just yet unless I have to.Paulturtle (talk) 03:25, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Resignation[edit]

The real reason Eden resigned was because the Americans refused to work with a British government led by him. (81.132.49.84 (talk) 12:05, 16 June 2016 (UTC))

there were multiple reasons. His doctors said the job was literally killing him. He had failed badly in 1956 and lost his aura of competence. He had lied to Parliament (saying he did not know Isreal's plans). The Americans were angry but did not make demands for his removal. Rjensen (talk) 12:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
The Eisenhower administration made clear it was not prepared to work with Eden. This is covered in detail in "1956: The Year That Changed Britain" by Francis Beckett and Tony Russell. (81.132.49.84 (talk) 12:16, 16 June 2016 (UTC))
no it is not covered in detail. they make that claim by citing Pat Buchanan, an american politician who has written very poor histories. None of the biographers of Eisenhower make that assertion. Eden told Mollet that it was false ("no doubt at all that the friendship between us all is restored and even strengthened"). Ike wrote Eden, I "assure You that my admiration and affection for you have never diminished; I'm truly sorry that you had to quit the office"...That's much too strong language if Ike had forced him out of office. Rjensen (talk) 12:55, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
It was well known at the time that the US government would not be prepared to take any government led by Eden into its confidence. Eisenhower actually told a British official he blamed the Suez operation for the West's inability to respond to the Soviet invasion of Hungary. (81.132.49.84 (talk) 13:28, 16 June 2016 (UTC))
OK, source please. Other than that, we don't know what may have been said in private, but history ultimately has to be based on what the surviving evidence says. Conversely there is some (admittedly modest) evidence that Butler, who assumed that the succession was going to drop into his lap, may have colluded with Eden's doctors to nudge him out (which in turn may be why Butler didn't notice Macmillan beavering away with Cabinet Ministers and sucking up to the Americans to steal the succession). I wrote up most of this stuff last autumn. But I'm afraid this just looks like tedious trolling by somebody with no edit history, about topics which have been subject to this kind of nonsense before. Notwithstanding his half-hearted toying with the idea of a return to Parliament in 1960, Eden kept out of the public eye after his resignation to a degree which was unusual at the time, especially for a man who had been one of the dominant politicians of his generation, and clearly, the effect of drug use (drugs which he had legitimately been told by his doctors to take, as opposed to snorting coke) on his temper and judgement is notable enough for the introduction as it has been much discussed over the years.Paulturtle (talk) 13:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Chamberlain also kept out of the public eye after he resigned. (81.132.49.84 (talk) 13:53, 16 June 2016 (UTC))
Chamberlain was a leading member of Churchill's War Cabinet, and still leader of the Conservative Party, until his final weeks when he was dying of cancer.Paulturtle (talk) 14:30, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Churchill rarely appeared in public or attended parliament after he resigned in 1955. (81.132.49.84 (talk) 15:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC))
Again, nonsense. Quite apart from the fact he was already in his eighties, Churchill appeared in public a fair bit in the late 1950s and made quite a few speeches; the last which he helped to write himself was as late as 1959. Whatever one thinks of the man, he was a revered world statesman whose comings and goings were usually newsworthy. You are right that he seldom attended Parliament, especially after 1959 when he was sinking into decrepitude, but he was still an MP until 1964 with letters dealing with constituency business being sent out in his name, although a few years before that his secretary Anthony Montagu Browne had asked that Tory MPs stop writing to him and asking his opinion about things, as he was no longer capable of "forming considered opinions" or of "marshalling arguments". This is becoming very tedious.Paulturtle (talk) 15:41, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
I've just received an email from Lady Avon. She says Anthony decided to set a new trend for his successors by not taking too much part in politics as Harold was just as involved in the secret Suez planning as he was, and also because times had clearly changed in the post-war world. (81.132.49.84 (talk) 16:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC))
Deeply fascinating. Perhaps you can arrange to have your e-mail published in a reputable history book so we can cite it. However, since you now seem to agree that Eden was setting a new precedent by playing a reduced role in public life, which is what the article already says, there seems little purpose in any further discussion.Paulturtle (talk) 17:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
The point is he did still play a role in politics behind the scenes, and the fact that he did not regularly appear in public was not just due to Suez as the article previously implied. Did you know he considered revealing the Iranian coup after the Americans forced him to order a ceasefire? (81.132.49.84 (talk) 17:02, 16 June 2016 (UTC))

Style over substance[edit]

'Born in the year of Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee, he thus died in the year of Queen Elizabeth II's Silver Jubilee.' This sentence is essentially drivel, style over substance. It has no meaning, since neither royal anniversary is connected with his birth or death. You may as well say, 'Born in the year that Aston Villa won the FA Cup, he thus died in the year they won the League Cup.' This is rather better, in fact, since Eden was often seen down the Villa. --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 09:00, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Then take it up with his biographers, who draw attention to the coincidence. The point is that his life coincides more or less exactly with the Decline and Fall of the British Empire. As does Churchill's active career, incidentally. That doesn't make it "essentially drivel", and whilst he pursued a career which was devoted to Britain's role in the world he never had anything to do with the management of any football team. I wish this article didn't attract so many silly edits.Paulturtle (talk) 20:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

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