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No consensus to merge with Arab Winter. (This discussion was closed by SamuelDay1 without signature.)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The chart about Arab Winter was removed as original research. Now that the proposed target is short, the merger may be reasonable again. George Ho (talk) 08:20, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - i see no difference between this merge proposal and the previous one, which was strongly rejected.GreyShark (dibra) 15:48, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - I read over the previous RFC as well as this one, (Thanks Greyshark!) because I didnt realize at first there had been one prior, and I think the reasoning behind the other's closure still applies here. As of this moment the events are distinctly different enough, though obviously named similarly. While the Arab Winter article could benefit from some TLC, merging it with Arab Spring wouldn't do either article justice, imo. Rotund but Reasonable (talk) 13:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Arab Spring pretty much ended with the 2012 elections in Kuwait. Just prior to that there were massive protests and the protesters occupied the parliament. There was a Second Libyan Civil War, Sisi took over Egypt, and finally this.(yuck). Except for the Syria/Iraq war, it's pretty much over.Ericl (talk) 22:55, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I would say it ended when the Civil uprising phase of the Syrian Civil War ended, which was 28 July 2011, and evolved into the full-fledged Syrian Civil War. Or rather when the 2011 Iraqi protests ended on 23 December and mutated into an ISIL-led insurgency. But I think the December date is the best bet. That's my take on the issue and I really think this article should be closed because its been years since the Arab Spring ended. EkoGraf (talk) 00:36, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree with December 2011 as a logical endpoint. -Kudzu1 (talk) 02:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Comment - so it seems we have several potential dates for the "end of the Arab Spring": July 2011 (Syria), December 2011 (Iraq), December 2012 (Kuwait elections), summer 2013 (Bahrain). However, it also seems that in each country the events unfolded differently and maybe there is no "one" end point, but several, with the last one being summer 2013 in Bahrain. Opinions?GreyShark (dibra) 17:56, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
It is probably most accurate to say the revolutionary wave petered out over a period of a year or two. Is there a way to define the "height" of the Spring in the infobox (e.g. December 2010 to December 2011)? -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:33, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I remembered that we had the Yemeni Revolution which ended on 27 February, so I think it may be best to mark that as the end date of the Arab Spring. And note in the results section that armed conflicts in Syria, Libya, Yemen and Iraq continues, with occasional sporadic protests in other countries. How about that? EkoGraf (talk) 11:44, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Then we have five possible dates: July 2011 (Syria), December 2011 (Iraq), February 2012 (Yemen), December 2012 (Kuwait elections), summer 2013 (Bahrain). Personally, as with other complex conflicts, i think we should mark the last event as the "end of the Arab Spring" - August 2013 in Bahrain. I think that the transition from "Spring" to "winter" has been gradual, and we cannot put a single event to mark a transition. However, by the end of August 2013, the "spring" had certainly been over.GreyShark (dibra) 22:47, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
Comment: I went ahead and removed the non-"spring" items from Template:Arab Spring. Things like that need to be decided upon as soon as possible, though determining the end of the Arab Spring is not as tricky as determining the beginning of the "winter" which was a gradual process and is merely an unwanted result of the initial protests. The rise of Islamists through elections (Egypt, Tunisia, etc) and militancy (Libya, Syria, etc) may well fall into that category, as it wasn't really the main goal of the much publicized pro-democracy protest movements. The Arab uprisings of 2010-2011 provided a major shock that led to the rapid evolution of Islamism in the Arab world. The 2013 coup in Egypt and the seemingly successful crackdown in Bahrain, for example, appear to have simply been a final touch that brought back those countries to the pre-2011 status quo. I don't think that the Bahrain Tamarod was part of the spring or even the country's "2011-present" uprising, so I believe that those who contribute to the Bahrain topic need to work some things out there because I smell something very WP:OR-ish about it. It appears that most sources refer to Bahrain as a "crushed uprising", following the Saudi-led intervention and bulldozing of Pearl Roundabout's monument by authorities. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Agree, the Bahrain uprising is certainly over (whether in 2012 or 2013), and nothing today can be referred as "Spring". As part of this cleanup process we also need to put a stamp on the Bahrain uprising as "over", since nothing significant has happened there since the Tamarod riots in 2013.GreyShark (dibra) 11:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I continued with the cleanup, marking the Sudanese protests as over in 2013. Thus, we remain with Saudi Arabian protests and Bahraini protests, both long over in the context of the Arab Spring; we do have some occasional protests in Saudi province of Qatif, but that has been going on for decades and is currently more related with the ongoing Sunni-Shia sectarian strife, than with pro-Democracy protests.GreyShark (dibra) 11:17, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I was a major contributor to the Bahraini uprising articles. I'm also the main author of Bahrain Tamarod. The major protests ended in March 2011 i.e. 1 month after they started. Smaller scale protests continued, so did government crackdown and suppression. In fact as a resident of Bahrain I can confirm that protests are still ongoing, but they are nothing like Feb-March 2011 (there are many sources which also state this). I've been resisting this for a while, but the uprising truly ended in March 2011. The remaining events are the aftermath. I'm sorry that I cannot help much these days.. Mohamed CJ(talk) 18:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
This all leaves us with the disambig Aftermath of the Bahraini uprising of 2011, which I believe that, with some effort, could be converted into an article with prose that summarizes all the events in the separate timeline articles from April 2011 onward. If there's anything left behind please let me know, or just go for it. Cheers, Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I have been keeping this up to date with events for years; I would propose a fork in development on that timeline. One 'Arab Spring Timeline' that focuses just on the period we decide constitutes the 'arab spring', and the above lengthier one for an 'aftermath', 'arab winter' or whatever history decides to call this period of intense instability. --ERAGON (talk) 20:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
That would be fine by me. Some events are, however, irrelevant in both contexts, such as the South Sudanese secession and the Israeli operations in Gaza. I'd also recommend naming the split file Aftermath of the Arab Spring. Let's just avoid using the term "winter" too much for now. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 10:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Much of this is original research, for example "The term "Arab Spring" fell into a complete disuse by late 2013" in the lead. It should be based on what reliable sources says if it has ended and if so when they say it ended.
I don't get the timeline here above. Who have said the Gaza-Israel conflict is related to the Arab Spring? --IRISZOOM (talk) 03:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
Under the section "Overview," in the third paragraph is the following sentence: "Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir announced that he would not seek re-election in 2015, as did Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, whose term was ending in 2014, although there were violent demonstrations demanding his immediate resignation in 2011."
I just changed the sentence about al-Maliki to show the past tense for his term ending. However, I wonder whether the phrase about the violent demonstrations in 2011 is still significant. Perhaps it would be better to replace it with something like "although he resisted leaving at that time until he was forced out." If the violent demonstrations of 2011 are still significant, perhaps it should be added under the al-Maliki article instead of being in the Arab spring article. Rodmarcia (talk) 18:22, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
This article shows Wikipedia hatred against Islam and "Shria Laws". I have objection about this line: The Arab Spring has often been described as a wave of popular uprisings against an oppressive rule ("Intifadas"), which consist of strict religious practices known as Sharia Law Rememger dear "Sharia Law has nothing to do with arab ruler. No one of them followed Shria law if they would follow then things are fine today. As in Shria law everybody is equeal before law and in Shria, and in Shria It is responsibility of a Government to provide its citizens what they need. So, in Arab the rulers do what they want and they have nothing to do with people of their country or Islamic Shria. In Arab People are deprived of their basic rights, and in Shria laws the ruler has responsibility to serve people but in Arab the ruler started to serve themselves. So this is really disgusting statement of Wikipedia that "Strict Shria laws" brought such spring. Does Wikipedia is third class website Or here live ignorant people who have no idea about What is Shria Laws? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 10:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The source used is really worthless. The part about sharia law was added by Kellan01. Greyshark09 added the source itself and this on 28 March 2015 to make it look like this is an intifada: "The Arab Spring has often been described as a wave of popular uprisings against an oppressive rule ("Intifadas")". This was quoted from the ref:
Three days later, the Islamist leadership in Europe — mostly comprised of expatriates from the Maghreb — capitalized on the self-immolation to spark the Islamist-jihadist intifadas for which they long been preparing. They issued a slew of fatwas and communiques urging the frustrated and destitute populace of the greater Middle East to rebel against the existing socio-political order and westernized modernity in quest for utopian Islamist solutions. The urging fell on fertile ground. The great intifada, labeled “the Arab Spring” by the liberal West, was launched and is still unfolding."
How can anyone take this seriously? It is a conspiracy theory about Islamists being behind the uprising instead of a popular uprising. Just because you can find sources talking about the Arab Spring as an "intifada", it does not mean it is one and certainly that it is "often been described" as it. I will remove this. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
I have removed it now. If sources talk about this as an intifada, it should be mentioned somewhere in the article, and be based on reliable sources. The source discussed above introduced other things too. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:31, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
And please change the tone; i'm as veteran editor as you and you should know that this is a very bad faith practice to write "Greyshark09 added the source itself and this on 28 March 2015 to make it look like this is an intifada", especially when there are tons of sources referring to Arab Spring uprisings as Intifadas (uprising means intifada more or less); the Arabic article on Syrian civil uprising is named مرحلة الانتفاضة الشعبية في الحرب الأهلية السورية, which transliterates as "Marhalat al-Intifadah al-Suriyeh" if you are lost in translation. Cheers.GreyShark (dibra) 18:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
I explained to the other editor what had happened as the part about sharia law was later added, after you had added the first part using a bad source. I will voice my concern when I see a source like that being used. To reintroduce the term, I said (on your talk page and also objected using that source to say it is often called "the Great Intifada") you could bring better sources that shows the term is known.
Of course if you search specifically for "intifada" in relation to those uprisings, you will get result of that type. Not surprisingly, if one search for "Arab Spring Intifada", the article from World Tribune is one of the top results. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
In the section "Summary of conflicts by country", 310,000 is mentioned but that is one of several estimates. Other still put it at around 220,000 or more. These figures is also given at Syrian Civil War and Casualties of the Syrian Civil War. So the UN figure of 220,000 until January should be mentioned too. --IRISZOOM (talk) 03:40, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
I have mentioned some sections above that much of this is original research. We need more and better sources to say that the Arab Spring has ended, especially back then in July 2011 according to that article.--IRISZOOM (talk) 20:46, 13 May 2015 (UTC)