Talk:Atana

External links[edit]

I added the external links to music that fits into this Indian raaga, anyone learning about the raaga would benefit from listening to the music associated with it. Not sure why this is considered inappropriate. I'd like the following deleted external links to be added back. Thanks.

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raagabox.com/search/?chartId=147&tagName=Atanai Bhajans in Atana

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raagabox.com/search/?joyid=&m=&searchterm=Atana&page=1 Carnatic Kritis in Atana — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbssmadhav (talk • contribs) 19:14, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

Intentionally removed the link to the site - but left the rest of information in - for clear context of this message.

I believe the spirit behind the guidelines for usage of External links has to be understood. Also, the exact expectations from the people at large, from any encyclopedia has to be understood. Here are some points to help people understand why external links of this nature are not appropriate.

( A ) Point 4 of Important points to remember from WP:EL states

In the "External links" section, try to avoid separate links to multiple pages in the same website; instead, try to find an appropriate linking page within the site.

As can be seen by additions you have made, this is clearly violated.

( B ) Point 9 of Links normally to be avoided from WP:EL states

Any search results pages, such as links to individual website searches, search engines, search aggregators, or RSS feeds.

As can be seen by additions you have made, each and every link is a "Search Results" page.

( C ) Point 10 of Links normally to be avoided from WP:EL states

Social networking sites (such as Myspace and Facebook), chat or discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups), Twitter feeds, Usenet newsgroups or e-mail lists.

As can be seen, your website states clearly The Music Student Network.

( D ) Advertising and conflicts of interest from WP:EL states

It is obvious that a link from Wikipedia to an external site may drive Web traffic to that site. But in line with Wikipedia policies, you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent—even if Wikipedia guidelines seem to imply that it may otherwise be linked.

As it is your website, there is direct conflict of interest.

( E ) Finally point number 1 of Links normally to be avoided from WP:EL states

Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article.

Since there are 1000s (if not millions) of renditions of ragas and alapanas available on the web, NO SINGLE resource can claim to be UNIQUE to be included in a particular raga page. Here, it should be understood that unique resource means extra ordinary resource that is reliable and referenced by a 3rd party review/ article/ published paper, etc. This default expectation of encyclopedic content cannot be bypassed simply because it has not been mentioned in the WP:EL - it is implicit requirement that experts and 3rd parties feel that raagabox is THE standard for learning the raga - which clearly it is NOT. No one has certified this.

Hope in light of this you will stop promoting your website in Wikipedia articles. Thank you. VasuVR (talk, contribs) 07:52, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

disambiguation[edit]

'Atana' has meanings outside India so should be a disambiguation. For example, it is a variant spelling of Greek goddess Athena, that if I recall, is the variant used in Sparta.--dchmelik (t|c) 04:33, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Now the disambiguation page lists major meanings in four other languages... really should be a disambiguation.--dchmelik (t|c) 04:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 February 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. — Amakuru (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Atana → Atana (raga) – ‘Atana’ is in four or more languages with different meanings, probably all equally important. What an average Western scholar would know it as (so maybe also historical English usage, at least for classics & European language scholars) is an alternate spelling of Greek name/goddess Athena or a theorized ‘proto-Athena,’ used in some areas of ancient Greece, which I'd prefer over the raga and other usages if one language should have the main name, but the disambiguation page should become the main article. dchmelik (t|c) 05:14, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment given that this is often called Raga atana, the proposal makes sense. But not totally convinced that there really are other subjects at the Atana (disambiguation) page which are likely search topics. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:43, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm a classicist but admittedly not an ancient religion specialist. I don't think I've ever encountered the spelling "Atana" for Athena in any English-language scholarship -- nothing that would make a user of the English Wikipedia want to search for "Atana" in the expectation of finding the goddess. Maybe you can cite a source or two to show that this confusion could arise? Andrew Dalby 09:47, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Now cited on Atana (disambiguation) talk page. I wasn't sure myself, but maybe reread what I said or the first source (which the section is available free on Google Books.) An Athena site says they are the same but the scholarly source only theorizes they are the same, apparently with no conclusion. So, apparently Atana can be considered a separate ancient goddess (or any truth they are the same was not known at the time of the scholar's book, 1999, but some new source in Athena article might say.) She's so ancient to be a bit obscure to readers of Greek religion/mythology, but this is very relevant--relevant enough I'd say (that people reading about religion/mythology this far back would expect to see her mentioned first.)--dchmelik (t|c) 10:18, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for replying. I'm not strongly for or against the move you propose but, looking further, I don't think claiming "Atana" as an alternative spelling for "Athena" supplies a valid reason. The relevant link had been deleted by someone from the disambiguation page, by the time I looked at it, and the reason given was that the spelling can't be found at Athena. Well, the reason for that is that there is one Linear B tablet which is cited at Athena correctly with hyphens as "A-ta-na po-ti-ni-ja". That's all. It quite likely is a reference to an early form of the goddess Athena, but it doesn't mean the supposed goddess's name was ever "Atana". A Linear B form A-ta-na could just as well stand for Athana or various other possible combinations. If anyone is really likely to try the Linear B spelling in a Wikipedia query (I doubt it, I admit), then we'd want a cross-reference from A-ta-na po-ti-ni-ja to Athena. That would take Athena out of this discussion. Andrew Dalby 13:23, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's back now, because there's more to that section (besides you can just omit the dashes from the words for the letters.) It also mentions ‘At(h)ana,’ in which this means the ‘h’ is optional. So, ‘Atana’ definitely is a variant, even if it wasn't sure it's a variant of Athena or just a group of similar goddesses, or a coincidence (if I recall, the scholarly (e)book I read, that also uses the spelling ‘Atana,’ said it's not clear it's Athens or a place with similar name.)--dchmelik (t|c) 13:31, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's busy, isn't it? I've made a suggested change and a comment over at the disambig page. I'll leave it at that: best of luck to all. Andrew Dalby 13:38, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, references don't ever belong on disambiguation pages. An existing English Wikipedia article linked to on the disambiguation page must support the claimed usage. Disambiguation pages are not an index of anything and everything that might have been mentioned somewhere. Also, this usage seems rather obscure. I think a stronger case is needed to displace the raga form. older ≠ wiser 12:55, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, classics is my field, so naturally I'm sympathetic to the idea of placing Athena on par with a form of musical composition. But this strikes me as quite obscure, and not even clearly established. A single inscription in Linear B that might be a reference to Athena, possibly a corresponding inscription in Linear A (which on the whole has yet to be deciphered), no references anywhere else in the whole body of works and inscriptions from classical antiquity. And even if "Atana" is a reference to Athena, there's a credible argument to interpret it "Athana". It just doesn't seem important enough to displace an article about something that is spelled "atana". If it shared a name with a regular variant or an epithet of Athena, I could see doing this, but rare spellings in obscure tablets (and I mean that in the politest possible way; however fascinating they may be, there's no evidence that they directly influenced any surviving works of art or literature) just don't strike me as justification for this move. P Aculeius (talk) 14:56, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No other articles titled 'Atana'. Ppp ery 15:05, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm disinclined to this proposal. I doubt the average person looking for the article on the Greek goddess will look for "Atana" or "Atena" over the proper spelling "Athena". And if a confusion can be shown to exist, put a head note on this article pointing to Athena. FWIW, it's more likely that someone would confuse a small town on the Pontic coast of Turkey once called "Athina" & currently called Pazar with the goddess; it's a part of the world with a few other oddly-named places, such as Of. -- llywrch (talk) 18:17, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.