Talk:B. M. Kutty

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 03:29, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

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• ... that a communist B. M. Kutty left India for Pakistan and wrote his autobiography Sixty years in self-exile: No Regrets? Source: "The Wire"

• Reviewed: Exempt from QPQ, the nominator has fewer than 5 DYK credits.

Moved to mainspace by Deepak G Goswami (talk). Self-nominated at 06:02, 2 September 2019 (UTC).

• The length of the article, and the date of article's creation are OK. A few issues with the hook. It is a composite hook, with two (rather than one) separate statements being asserted there (that he left India for Pakistan, and later wrote an autobiography). For a hook like that you'd still need a specific single place in the article where the reader might find a supporting sentence, and right now that's not quite the case, or at least not clearly the case. The relevant supporting sentence needs to occur in the Autobiography section of the article. It could say something like: "After originally leaving India for Pakistan in 1949, Kutty published a 2011 autobiography ...". Also, the supporting citation for that sentence in the article should be to a secondary source, such as The Wire article mentioned in the nom. Finally, I think the hook would read better if it mentioned the dates. E.g. something like: "... that a communist B. M. Kutty left India for Pakistan in 1949, and published his autobiography Sixty years in self-exile: No Regrets in 2011?" Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 14:19, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

ALT1: ... that a communist B. M. Kutty left India for Pakistan in 1949, and published his autobiography Sixty years in self-exile: No Regrets in 2011?

Nsk92, thanks for the review and yes, you are right, that the originally proposed hook has two clauses. Your suggestion brings more clarity. Do I still need to make changes in the article?--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 03:09, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

ALT1 hook reads well, and the length, at 140 characters, is good too. In the Early life section, in the sentence "Two months later in August, he along with a Malayali friend..." please elaborate the date to read "Two months later, in August 1949, he along with a Malayali friend...". Please rephrase the first sentence of the Autobiography section to something like: "In 2011 Kutty published his autobiography Sixty years in self-exile: No Regrets; A Political Autobiography. Also, please put a reference at the end of that sentence. For ref no. 6 the title of the ref seems to be specified incorrectly. The title in the source [1] seems to be "COVER STORY: Pakistan times". Please correct it. I'll check for other issues later. Nsk92 (talk) 09:23, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

I fixed the August 1949 sentence in the article. The other issues mentioned above still need to be addressed. Also, the article contains numerous specific biographical factual statements that need referencing. I put a number of 'citation needed' tags on those. There is also a reference to a Youtube video (currently ref no. 5). Youtube is not a WP:RS, and youtube videos should not be used as references. They can still be included under 'External links', if you add an External links section. Also, you have not indicated anything regarding QPQ for this nomination. Nsk92 (talk) 10:20, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

I didn't know citation was required to provide at the end of each sentence especially when it was provided at the end of para. However, I've corrected the raised issue. About the source from YouTube, WP:YOUTUBE reads, "There are channels for videos uploaded by agencies and organizations generally considered reliable such as that of the Associated Press on YouTube". Source here in question is NOT YouTube but The Wire and unless you believe The Wire and the author of the video Shekhar Gupta are not reliable enough I, IMHO, believe there is no qualm in citing a video as reference. Lastly, about the QPQ requirement, I have less than 5 DYK credits so this nomination is exempted from QPQ. Regards.--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 16:00, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

OK, very good, thank you for adding the citations and for clarifying the QPQ question. I'll do some additional checks on the article later. Regarding the Youtube ref. WP:YOUTUBE is a subsection of Wikipedia:External links deals with External links, rather than with references. There are more lax rules for external links, but references cited within the article itself must satisfy the WP:V and WP:RS requirements. The relevant section there is WP:SELFPUBLISH which generally excludes sources like Youtube, where any user can upload a video. Also, since a DYK article will be linked from Wikipedia's main page, the sourcing requirements there are generally stricter. I am not sure what exactly The Print (the show from which the video is taken is), but I don't think it is in the same category as CNN or BBC as a reliable source. For a DYK article, it is perfectly fine to include this video in the External links section of the article, but not as a cited reference. Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 16:31, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Nsk92 thanks for stating your take on this but I humbly disagree as this is a channel of a reliable news source hosted by YouTube. Clearly not "any user" can upload video on this particular channel or channels of other reliable news sources be that CNN or BBC. Author of this video is Shekhar Gupta who is a well known journalist and has received third highest civilian award of India. Unless you are questioning the authenticity of the author I see no reason why a video can't be cited as a reference. Is there is any policy of Wikipedia which forbids using YouTube videos uploaded by reliable news sources as reference?--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 02:02, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm, we have a bit of an impasse here at the moment. I have asked for additional input from other DYK participants at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Using a Youtube video of a webcast as a source in a DYK article. Let's see what the others say. You are welcome to comment there. Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 09:52, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

In light of the extra input given at Wikipedia talk:Did you know, I am withdrawing my objections to using this ref. I'll take another look at the article to see if everything else is in order. Nsk92 (talk) 22:13, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@Deepak G Goswami: OK, I fixed up a couple of small things in the article, and added his book under 'Publications' at the end. I have approved the nomination, with the ALT1 hook. Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 22:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Nsk92 for your review. You've been very helpful in many ways and I like the way you tried to resolve our deadlock. It has been a learning experience for me. I persisted to include the video reference because it's a matter of me understanding the working environment here besides not finding any suitable replacement.--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 03:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Approving ALT1 hook Nsk92 (talk) 22:42, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• Hi, I came by to promote this, but ALT1 reads like a line in a biographical dictionary. It is not a "hook" that will catch readers' interest. Yoninah (talk) 22:09, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, I thought at the time that the hook was reasonably interesting, but I do see your point. @Deepak G Goswami:: Could you propose an ALT hook? Thanks, Nsk92 (talk) 22:16, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I'd propose a new hook but after 16th September as these days I am travelling in the Trans Himalays and Internet here is very difficult to find.--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• ALT2: ... that communist B. M. Kutty was arrested by the Government of Pakistan for his political work?

Nsk92 and Yoninah please take a look at the ALT2 hook. Any other suggestion is most welcomed.--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 09:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Deepak G Goswami: Thank you, ALT2 is better but still sounds a bit plain. What about adding to this hook something about his daughter being expelled from college while he was in prison? Or that while arrested, he wrote a letter to the P.M. which resulted in their meeting? Nsk92 (talk) 10:40, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Nsk92: I did try to include those life facts in a hook but couldn't phrase it in a desirable eloquent manner. Can you please help with it?--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 15:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Deepak G Goswami: I could but then we would have another problem in needing a new reviewer since technically I am not allowed to approve a hook that I myself propose. Let me just say that I don't think you should try to put all of these facts in a hook. Choose the most interesting fact (such as that he was invited to a meeting with the P. M. after writing him a letter from prison) and go with that. Nsk92 (talk) 16:12, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• ALT3: ... that B. M. Kutty was called to a meeting with the Prime Minister of Pakistan Zulfikar Ali Bhutto after writing Bhutto a letter from prison?

@Nsk92: please tweak it wherever necessary.--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 06:30, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Deepak G Goswami: OK, thanks. I tweaked ALT3 very slightly, and ALT3 now looks good. Its length, at 130 characters, is well below the limit, there is a citation[2] verifying the hook in the hook supporting sentence in the article, and the hook is interesting. I am pinging @Yoninah: just in case, before formally approving ALT3, in case there are any other objections. Nsk92 (talk) 09:31, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

• Since you suggested the hook, Nsk92, you cannot review it per Rule H2. I am happy to pick up this nomination. The ALT3 hook fact is verified and cited inline. I suggest removing the sea of blue and also identifying Kutty, such as:
• ALT3a: ... that communist activist B. M. Kutty was called to a meeting with Prime Minister of Pakistan Zulfikar Ali Bhutto after writing Bhutto a letter from prison?
• I would just like to know what Kutty answered to the prime minister's question; the section seems to end without an answer. Pinging Deepak G Goswami. Yoninah (talk) 10:56, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

The latest suggestion appears all fine to me. About the Kutty's reply to the PM, there's nothing available on Internet. I'd try to buy his autobiography and would use it to expand the article but for now let's leave it like that.--Deepak G Goswami (talk) 04:56, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

• OK. ALT3 verified and cited inline. Maybe it's better to leave out the extra detail in ALT3a, so I'm striking that. Rest of review per Nsk92. ALT3 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:22, 21 September 2019 (UTC)