Talk:British baseball

Baserunning

What purpose does the baserunning serve, if the runners cannot add any further runs? Is it just to force batters late in the innings to get hits? John FitzGerald 16:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Move

The capitalization of Baseball in the title of the article was inconsistent with Wikipedia style, so i moved the article here. John FitzGerald 12:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Differences between the British and American games

This section mostly just describes the differing characteristics of the British game, but does not actually compare them to those of the American game - it appears to assume that the reader will be familiar with the American rules. "x is different to y" would probably be better than "x is different". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.32.121 (talk) 06:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I clarified a couple of points about "the American game." Schoop (talk) 19:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The whole discussion of innings, and of number of players, is incoherent. First it says no substitutions are allowed. Then it says substitutions ARE allowed, but no re-entry. It says only 9 players can play at a time, but it goes on to say that an innings ends when all 11 players are out (or accounted for). Well, if the two substitutes have to come in to finish the innings, and there's no re-entry, how can you have any more innings???? Then, after the confusing presentation about 2 innings, it says there are 9 innings! I can't correct this because I don't know what the actual facts are, but someone needs to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.172.45 (talk) 18:04, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Rounders

As I understand it the sport came straight out of rounders with a modified bat and then picked up the name "boy baseball", subsequently "baseball" - Bill Barrett explains Welsh Baseball. Hakluyt bean (talk) 03:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The games appear to be fairly similar. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

"As in cricket..."?

As in cricket, the ball is thrown underarm and is known as bowling, while in baseball, it is delivered overhand or underarm and is called pitching. Um, surely in cricket the ball is delivered overarm (yes, i know it used to be underarm), and is definitely not thrown? This seems to be an incorrect comparison. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 17:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I made this into 3 sentences so that it is clear. 1. They throw under hand. 2. It is called bowling, like in cricket. 3. American baseball is overhand OR underhand and is called pitching. Easy as. 119.149.20.25 (talk) 17:27, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Is underhand bowling still allowed in cricket? (It was required at one time.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:59, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

David Bishop

This article makes reference to "rugby's... David Bishop", would this be either of; David Bishop (rugby, born 1960), or David Bishop (rugby player, born 1983)? Best Regards. DynamoDegsy (talk) 07:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

It was indeed the original Dai Bishop - fixed. Topcardi (talk) 09:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Softball

As this article indicates its similarity to baseball, isn't it even more similar to softball, with the underarm pitch? -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 05:05, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Type of ball?

One crucial piece of information that seems to be missing in the article is the type of ball that is used. The picture of the ball resembles an American baseball, but how similar is it under the "skin"? Is it identical? And what size balls are used? Are they made in the UK, or sourced from baseball manufacturers elsewhere? The Rounders article also appears to lack information on the type of ball used. - BilCat (talk) 17:56, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

@Cymrogogoch: Do you have access to any information on the types of balls used in British/Welsh baseball, both historically and in modern times? Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 07:58, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi @BilCat:, I did find more details about the ball (and bats and their local manufacture) but have been concentrating on the sports history so far. I'm hoping to add an equipment section or improve the "Differences between the British/Welsh and North American games". Just from memory, the ball resemble a softball more than an American baseball, and were manufactured locally (Liverpool, Newport, Cardiff). In recent years I believe an actual softball (manufactured overseas) is used.

If you are interested, or would like to add something yourself, it was in one of the more academic citations found in the article, either Beynon & Evans or Andrew Weltch. Cymrogogoch (talk) 10:44, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Welsh page

This is an article in the Welsh culture series so should be on Wales only, so relevant content moved to Baseball in Walesl. Moved England content into a new page titled English baseball. Kept content relevant to both articles on both pages. Thanks!Titus Gold (talk) 15:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Page move to Welsh baseball

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have made a technical request for a page move to Welsh baseball , please see Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests. ThanksTitus Gold (talk) 15:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Bad idea. Its the same game. We don't need two incredibly redundant articles. The split was a mistake, as was the move. This absolutely should have been discussed before the ill-advised split. I'm of a mind to just remerge the two without further discussion, since it was split without discussion. oknazevad (talk) 03:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree with oknazevad on all points. Cymrogogoch (talk) 09:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I am happy with that. I haven't touched it as it is off my usual article range, but I had already considered doing the same. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:09, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Also on reading a few sources, this one is interesting,[1] and points to a paper by by Martin Johnes [2]. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:19, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Guys, it's been over a year, why did you all just bring it up just when I just DAB'd the original page :(

But better late then never, would've supported (and still do) a reversion of the split. Was confused why some people stated opposition but did not act further. I do not know enough of traditional baseball to analyse whether it was the same sport so merely accomodated the split as directing British to Welsh did not make sense. DankJae 17:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

As per my additions to both pages today, fully referenced, ‘Welsh Baseball’ was not a distinct sport within the period of history I know well, it was always played under the rules of English baseball, as organised by the English Baseball Association. The South Wales Baseball Association originated from the South Wales Rounders Association which was the local organising body for the National Rounders Association in England, who created the rules of the game. Someone else can perhaps give specific modern day evidence of when/if Welsh Baseball diverged from English Baseball to justify its own page. In my opinion it should never have been split. A simple section on the establishment of the Welsh association under English Baseball is more accurate of the history of the sport until someone can prove otherwise. I understand that this may be a sensitive issue given that the game ‘English Baseball’ may feel culturally wrong to Welsh players but that is the source of the game, it originated in Liverpool. I am for the merging of the pages as long as we keep all information from both and am happy to fix the lineage when merged. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 16:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey,

Firstly what do you mean the sport originates in Liverpool? Do you have a source? The first clubs that named themselves for baseball were in Cardiff and Newport in 1892.

I think the consensus is that, as a distinct sport (Baseball as opposed to Rounders) it was predominantly a game for dock workers in Newport, Cardiff and Liverpool. The game was known as British Baseball but it's English history outside of Merseyside has been sporadic at best. The sport seems to have become known as Welsh baseball after the sad decline of the Merseyside clubs and the England national team. I don't believe that the sport has ever been commonly referred to as "English Baseball", except when talking of the national team or in relation to Wales.

I agree we should revert back to the original single article, that had a good explanation of the history of the name of British/Welsh baseball and avoids these misconceptions. Cymrogogoch (talk) 21:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Are we talking about reverting back to this page [3]? In which case a technical request may be required (revert Welsh Baseball to that page, rename Welsh Baseball to British Baseball, deleting DankJae's beautiful DAB (sorry), WP:BLAR of English Baseball to there). That undoes the split and the page histories will be retained to allow merge of any recent content. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, yes I have detailed with references how the game emerged as an organised sport in Liverpool first, with the National Rounders Association being based in Liverpool, who created the rules. This was then rolled out in South Wales with the South Wales Rounders Association playing to the rules set by the national body in Liverpool. Both later changed their name to baseball as opposed to rounders. I put all of that in detail in both the English and Welsh pages earlier, so you have probably not seen it yet. It makes sense that later after Wales adopted the sport as its own it had diverged, but I have no reference of when or how, so any you have would be welcomed. But from everything I have ever seen it certainly did originate as an organised sport in England then Wales played the English game. I have started to update both pages with lots of referenced material today, so I would appreciate not losing that information should a merge happen, if possible. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 21:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

OK, well that's quite something.

When was this? Cymrogogoch (talk) 22:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry User:AngelsAndOwls but there's nothing there to say that the game of "Baseball" started in Liverpool. In fact the text in your most recent edit seems to conflate Rounders and Baseball. Can you say when and how the sport started as English Baseball

The opening Sentence also says the game today is "Played mainly in Merseyside", suggesting the game is active in a number of areas in England. This will need a good source as five news articles I added in the latter text state the game is no longer played in England. Cymrogogoch (talk) 23:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I’ve outlined on the English baseball page and Welsh baseball page with full references how the sport originated as an adult game based on rounders in Liverpool, the rules created by the National Rounders Association in Liverpool, who spread their game to Wales and Gloucester, and who later dropped the moniker rounders for baseball. I am not sure what else you need to see to understand that is a documented fact of history. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 23:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, you’re conflating issues. British baseball (call it Welsh baseball or English baseball) is not baseball as per how Americans would see it. It is a variation of rounders, with aspects of softball and baseball to some extent, having originated as rounders, but adopting baseball as a name. Baseball (as in the known sport played in USA) is a totally different sport, the two are cousins at best. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 23:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The National Rounders Association was active as early as the 1880’s in Liverpool, and formed the rules of the new game, based on rounders but aimed at adults. Gloucester adopted the sport in 1887, with the Gloucester Rounders Association formed in 1888. The English based national body competed against Spalding’s touring Americans in Liverpool in 1889. In South Wales the game took hold in 1889, four clubs were created in South Wales who in 1890 then formed the South Wales Rounders Association. These were all organised under the direction of the national association in Liverpool. In 1892 they dropped the name rounders in favour of baseball, in May 1893 a meeting of the South Wales Baseball Association was held to discuss the proposal to adopt ‘American rules’ of baseball, this proposal was rejected, with the decision taken to continue to play under ‘English rules’. Etc, etc. All the evidence I’ve seen and reference says that ‘British/Welsh/English baseball was created by the national rounders association in England and spread from there. It could well have diverged around WW1 or later, but I have no interest in the modern game so have no material or research into that to prove why Welsh baseball is a separate different sport. I’m happy to hear/see such material if there is a case to be made for that, and certainly Wales has hung onto the game long after it has fallen away in England, but it 100% appears to originate in England. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Spalding’s tour played many games all over England at the American rules, but this cannot be argued as the beggining of an English game in Liverpool. Sorry to repeat myself but again you appear to be conflating Baseball and Rounders. If British Baseball can be said to have a start at all then it is surely when the teams that would go on to form the various associations "named" themselves for Baseball (you can only have a team sports once the teams exist). The two early newspaper sources in the English article's history section give dates of 1888 (Liverpool Mercury) and 1893 (South Wales Echo), but again these refer to 'Runders' and 'Baseball' respectively, conflating the two sprts as one. I would again ask where's the source for a Liverpool origin.

If you're a fan of the American game this is covered in Baseball Before we Knew it by David Buck. He stated that the British game developed in Wales with "English variants" developing in Merseyside and the West country due to their close geographic links. He even argues for a number of 17th century Welsh antecendents for the British game.

Finally, the English artilce references Beynon & Evans, The Inside Story of Baseball. It's an amazing book and specifically states the first clubs to name themselves for Baseball were in Cardiff. That's a source I added to the original British article and is now in the English article's opening history section which explicitly argues against it.

In short, this is a mess. Cymrogogoch (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• "All the evidence I’ve seen and reference says that ‘British/Welsh/English baseball was created by the national rounders association in England"

and

• "it 100% appears to originate in England."

Then please provide a reliable source. If you are saying the sport originates with the codification of rules created by the National Rounders Association in Liverpool, that's a perfectly reasonable argument. But we need sources. Please don't just tell us you know it for a fact. Currently the text on the sports origins is structured around clubs and associations naming themselves for Baseball (in the wake of the American games) and is heavily sourced in both S Wales and Merseyside. Happy to discuss the viability alternative starting point. Cymrogogoch (talk) 00:09, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

If we don't have unanimity, a technical request to fix this will be rejected and we will need a merge discussion. AngelsAndOwls, there is clearly a content discussion to be had, but I wonder if we can reverse the split and then have that? If you object, I will create a merge discussion instead. Please feel free to object (as is anyone else), but I just want to see the best way to take this forward. My proposal above is:

1. Revert Welsh Baseball to June 2022. A revert is not destructive of recent additions, which can be reasserted at the end of the process as necessary;
2. Request a technical move of Welsh Baseball to British Baseball, overwriting the DAB. (Sorry Dankjae!);
3. WP:BLAR of English Baseball to British Baseball. As for (1), this is not destructive of page history and recent changes can be merged and reasserted as necessary

This will leave redirects with history from English Baseball and Welsh Baseball to British Baseball. I think they can reasonably be left in place, and thus all history is preserved.

If there are no objections to this plan, I will make the request. If there is any dissent, I will create a merge discussion. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:30, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree 100%. The discussion has veered off into semantics about disagreeing that the Liverpool based National Rounders Association (who created the rules the later South Wales Baseball Association were controlled by) not being the legitimate starting point of ‘British baseball’ because it wasn’t until a few years later they changed their name to ‘baseball’. That is a fair conversation to be had on the talk page but is irrelevant here, IMHO. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 07:35, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

It's not semantics. I just asked to see a source. Cymrogogoch (talk) 00:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Which part would you like me to add more references for? That the National Rounders Association (the governing body for all of the U.K.) was based in England? That they created the rules for the sport? That the later South Wales Rounders Association played under those rules? That both changed their name from ‘rounders’ to ‘baseball’ at the same time? I really don’t understand why any of that is controversial, all of those points in history have an accepted reference from local newspapers of the day. If you tell me which part you don’t agree with I’ll add more references for that specific point in history? As I have said time and again, the sports rules were created by the main body in Liverpool, from where all later organisations and clubs took those rules, if later the Welsh diverted from those rules to create an entirely separate game from ‘British baseball’ that clearly was a form of rounders originating in Liverpool, then the onus is on you to provide references to show when that divergence happened and I am more than happy for you to do so. I fear you have taken this to heart as a quest to minimise the Welsh influence on this specific minor sport whereas all I want to do is create an accurate history of the rules and governorship of the sport. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 07:18, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Per the above and AngelsAndOwls confirmation that they are content, I have now reverted to June 2022 and requested the technical move. Assuming that is accepted, I will then blank and redirect English baseball to British baseball. This will revert the undiscussed split.

Because the admin looking at the move request will look at this talk section to establish that we have agreement for this move, could I ask that the content discussion be taken to a new talk page section? It is a valuable discussion about how the page will look going forward, but it does not directly relate to the undiscussed split. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:52, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly that the topic of how/where/when Welsh baseball emerged from British baseball as a unique sport is a valuable topic that belongs on the talk page of ‘British baseball’ when the page is restored as such. I will update that page with much evidence of the early years, establishment of the rules, governing bodies etc on that page when the move is completed. Thanks again. AngelsAndOwls (talk) 10:20, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

The technical move has been completed (with thanks to SilverLocust), and I have redirected English Baseball. We are now back where we were prior to the undiscussed split. The page can now be edited again to reassert changes. Please start a new talk page section to discuss those as necessary. All page history can still be located in this article and the article of the English Baseball redirect. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 06:34, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.