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On my (user:Any IP.'s) possibly POV edits

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Reliability of sources?

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Hi, having become curious on details about the salad, recently, I meanwhile found so much incoherent information on it that I...
a) - changed the above heading and
b) - will be reluctant to edit both referring articles Caesar Cardini and Caesar salad for a while and
c) - would like to evaluate those sources in a discussion, if possible. To allow any following discussion to be surveyed by any new contributor as easily as possible, I please ask everybody to put contributions to their most appropriate places, which means, not necessarily at the foot of the page. For instance, a contribution on "Name" below any other contribution on "Name". And:
d) - Although many of the below quoted sources rather relay to the "Salad"-article, let's please discuss them here instead of splitting the discussion. Thanks for cooperation, WolfgangW. -- any IP. 15:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Below given Sources are nor yet quoted in any of the articles "Caesar Cardini" and "Caesar salad".
Added subheadings. -- any IP. 09:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On name and significant data

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It meanwhile is obvious that he adapted his name in favour of his English speaking guests, but stayed "Cesare" his life long -- see grave, on Findagrave. Proposal: Change "originally" into "actually" in the article. -- any IP. 07:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth

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  • On "Born in Lago Maggiore (en: "the bigger [of these] lakes"): It is quasi-impossible that any village nearby this rather huge lake ever bore such name, and for sure no town ever did. The LA Times reporter obviously misinterpreted some verbative "comes from L. Maggiore". any IP. 09:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC) Other sources note that the brothers C. and Alex immigrated from Milan (northern Italy, some 40 km from L. Maggiore). I suppose that a LA Times reporter would have known and therefore quoted the city of Milan, therefore, "region of L. Maggiore", referring to any village nearby, seems the best choice. -- any IP. 15:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Immigration to USA

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Most sources quote the LA Times data very probably provided by C's family, "went to the USA at the age of 20", which would mean 1916. Other sources [can be provided later] quote "After the Great War (=WW_I), which would be 1918 or later. -- any IP. 09:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Still others quote that he was an aviator "ace" himself (quite improbable that such aviator would have been allowed to (or even have decided to) emigrate during the war!). So, "in his early twenties" might be the best choice. -- any IP. 10:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On different Caesar's restaurants

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(Carl's Jr Hamburgers, see #Tijuana tourist map -- any IP. 08:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding thisone I feel uncomfortable. Was it a re-opening or just one more location? -- any IP. 13:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://www.grumpygourmetusa.com/culinary_beat2.html Review on Caesar Salad, by "The Grumpy Gourmet," Doral Chenoweth, winner of the SDX award on journalism in 2006. Quote a)
    "I walked from the border to Caesar's Bar & Grill, 5th and Main streets. The second floor ballroom was the salad restaurant."
See visiting-card by Chenoweth on this, ...
  • "Tijuana offers taste (of sorts) of Mexico", Chicago Tribune, 2006, quote:
    "The famous restaurant [editor's note: in the Hotel Caesar], reopened as Caesar's Sports Bar and Grille after a five-year siesta, has been trimmed to a bar, six booths and a few outside tables. It once again offers the namesake salad ($6), ..." -- Compare this to the above given Doral Chenoweth quote (a) from 2006 and the pic of Caesar's Sports Bar & Grill. -- any IP. 09:45, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://www.mexicofile.com/caesarsalad.htm (1999; giving incoherent information on "Ceasar's Palace", and one more different purportedly "original recipe from Hotel Ceasar's", c.1999 (calling for anchovies, crashed garlic, Dijon mustard, and hot pepper sauce)
    Quote: "Several years ago the bar and dining room in the hotel occupied a larger space, and then about four years ago [therefore, c. 1995] it was closed down. During the years of the closing you were told to go down the block to Caesar’s Palace, an ornate glassy dining and dancing hall, if you wanted a caesar salad – but this was a far cry from the original and it wasn’t even made at your table."
Restaurant Caesar's Palace, 8131 Revolucion Ave. by Tijuana tourism board, 2007 -- any IP. 09:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On "original recipe"

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  • From Doral Chenoweth, Quote b)
    "Today the nearest to Cardini's recipe is a commercial Caesar dressing prepared and marketed by the Marzetti Co.[...] The label reads: The Original Caesar Salad Dressing."
  • From Doral Chenoweth, Quote c, from JPG "The original Caesar's salad" (For 4 Persons; assumed to come from the Hotel Caesar's restaurant, c. 2006):
    3 Medium heads romaine lettuce, chilled, dry, crisp;
    Dash Worcestershire sauce;
    Grated parmesan cheese, 5 or 6 tablespoons;
    Croutons, about 1 cup;
    Salt;
    Garlic flavoured salad oil about 1/3 cup;
    Wine vinegar, 1 to 2 tablespoons;
    Juice of 1 1/2 lemon;
    1 raw egg;
    Freshly ground pepper.
  • http://members.cox.net/jjschnebel/cookin.html Notes from 1998/2003 by seemingly very competent J.J. Schnebel, quoting Julia Child and the "original" recipe given to her by Rosa Cardini in mid-1970ies:
    Quotes:
    a) "To prepare the garlic oil, [...]"
    b) "Recently a second caveat has arisen – with regard to possible soil microbes in the garlic. The suggestion is to blanch or boil cut garlic for a few minutes before inserting it in the olive oil for several hours or several days." (The cut part is completely quoted in Caesar salad#Ingredients. -- any IP. 13:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Less than first-rate-"originals"-- any IP. 13:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On authorship and date of creation

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  • http://www.kitchenproject.com/history/CaesarSalad/index.htm (1998, assumed to be actualised "by today"; quotes:
    • "Paul Maggiora, a partner of the Cardini's, claimed to have tossed the first Caesar's salad in 1927 for American airmen from San Diego and called it "Aviator's Salad". Caesar's brother Alex had claimed to have developed the salad (he too allegedly called it "aviator's salad")."
    • "Livio Santini claimed he made the salad from a recipe of his mother, in the kitchen of Caesar's restaurant when he was 18 years old, in 1925, and that Caesar took the recipe from him." (above is probably quoted from Linda Cild).
    • "A totally heterodox origin for "Caesar salad" appears in the 3rd edition of "Webster's New World": "so named in honor of (Gaius) Julius Caesar by Giacomo Junia, Italian-American chef in Chicago, who invented it c. 1903." (quoting an article by Jim Rader, Merriam-Webster Inc., from American Food Folklore and Culinary History.)
    • "Journalists only bring this etymology up to heap scorn on it (demonstrating by the way their complete incomprehension of the meaning of "Webster" in dictionary titles.) Is anybody out there in Cleveland on ADS-L? Where did this etymology come from? The documentation of the collocation "Caesar salad"/"Caesar's salad" is thin. The first cite Merriam has is from the "Britannica Book of the Year, 1950", from the article "Fads of 1949": "In foods, fads were limited. Caesar salad was in vogue through the summer and fall, and slot-machine hot dogs still prevailed in the larger cities" (pp. 273-74). There have to be earlier cites out there, even if only from 1949, when the salad was supposedly popular (suggesting it had been regional until then?)."
  • Washington Times, June 19, 2007, Briefly - MEXICO: Quote: "The salad was born in 1932 in the kitchen of chef Cesar Cardini, said the current owners of Caesar's Hotel in Tijuana." (From a note on the Caesar's Hotel restaurateurs who want to toss a recordsize 3-tons-"CS" on August 26, 2007)

Other

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  • Doral Chenoweth, quote d)
    "Spiny Romaine was intended to give two things to his lettuce salad: The full lengthy Romaine leaf served as a scoop substitute for fingers to consume; and Romaine has food value. (See Caesar's original recipe below, from his restaurant.) Cardini suggested eating with fingers. He never chopped Romaine.
    In my reviewing career I have found alleged Caesar salads in this country prepared with walnuts, grilled chicken, grilled tuna or salmon, peanuts, full asparagus spears, deep fried spinach as a garnish, anchovies, diced cubes of Swiss cheese, cross-sliced deviled egg, curries of unknown ingredients, spiced apple cubes, and once at a luncheon at the tony and private Des Moines Club, a plate of chopped Romaine ringed with poached pears. It was there that I decided to take up the cause." [...]
    I walked from the border to Caesar's Bar & Grill, 5th and Main streets. The second floor ballroom was the salad restaurant. Two chefs were treating tourists to technique. They still use Cardini's preferred wooden bowls. My conversation with one of the chefs went like this:
    • Q - Where does the Romaine come from?
      A - Da states.
    • Q - Where does the grated Parmesan come from?
      A - Da states.
    • Q - Where do you get the eggs?
      A - From da chickens.
      Those answers were satisfying. I recrossed the border vowing to defend Caesar Cardini."
@Richard, or @anybody who feels competent: Might such long citations lead to a problem in an article? I hope (&feel like), not, but I would like feedback on this before using it (rather: parts of it in Caesar salad, which I probably will not touch today any more.
(by Any IP; answered by Richard, see below.)

Tijuana tourist map

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A Tijuana tourist map by Instituto Nacional de Estadística Geografía e Informática shows Caesar's Palace [sic!], Nr. 15, at 4th x Av. Revolution, and Carl' jr., Nr 16, in the same block on 5ft street.

Long citations

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Question @user:Macrakis and other competent biographers:
Is there a description in enWP about _how_much_quoting_ is generally tolerated? I started to work on the article when it terribly lacked sources, and I also feel that later version's quotes were somewhat "in extenso". On the other hand, in such Gordian knot of facts, legends and plain errors, quotes would help readers as well as all later contributors. I have to admit here that I only have online sources available, which often are "second rate", or less. [...] -- any IP. 16:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Times has what it calls the Lede, its the opening paragraph or two that summarizes the stories. Its what is used when you get the article in a Google search, and what you get when you look at the article for free, before you buy it from their website, thats how I got them. Sometimes its just a few sentences, sometimes a full paragraphs, or with paid obituaries, the whole thing. Its the equivalent of an abstract that you get for a scientific article, and has always been considered fair use to quote the entire abstract. The concept was also upheld by challenges made to Google for using the Lede from news stories, except in Belgium, when using Belgian news sources. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 02:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How about my citations of "Chenoweth" (above)? Are they acceptable? -- any IP. 03:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Patents

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Not being familiar with US laws, I just quoted Telegraph (and other online sources): "In 1948, Cardini obtained a patent for his recipe, although not for the name "Caesar Salad", which was held to be already too widely known. After he died in 1956, Rosa Cardini took charge of the business, jealously guarding her father's legacy and patenting another 17 vinaigrettes." See Telegraph 2003. I converted the very probably wrong edit on this, by user:Macrakis, into "hidden text". -- any IP. 01:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recipes are not recognized in US, or EU patents law. The names can be trademarked, which is what was done and appears on the bottles at Trader Joes. Ceasar Salad Dressing at that point had become a generic term, and could not be trademarked.
Hmmm. This opposes, to some extent, the Telegraph 2003 note. Is the term "Original Caesar's dressing" trademarked, by now? Or could anybody else call his dressing the same, when putting the original ingredients in it? -- any IP. 03:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Moved Question from #On my (user:Any IP.'s) possibly POV edits, and repeat question: Is "Original Caesar's dressing" trademarked, by now, yes or no, and was this done in 1948? What primary sources on that can be found online" -- any IP. 10:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FOOD Tagging

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This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Restaurants or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. You can find the related request for tagging here -- TinucherianBot (talk) 08:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brother

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Just a trivia. One of his brother is said to be called Caudencio, but it isn't a real Italian name. I really suspect his name is Gaudenzio (it has a pretty similar pronunciation of the english spelling of Caudencio). Do you have any source of it?--151.51.63.116 (talk) 15:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, no, I do not. That Italian names were used in quite an arbitrary way in USA for quite a long period of time, seems to be well-known. Best, --Wolfgang (talk) 16:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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It's not a place to put contemporary Mexican chefs. But famous chefs that invented dishes in Mexico or the US. Or the restaurants the Caesar worked in. 200.188.67.91 (talk) 15:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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