Talk:Lucy Letby

Very biased article

I happened to come along the present page and find a very biased, non-encyclopedic, article. On the top of this talk page there is an edit request to slightly improve the page. Let me endorse it: Please change "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who murdered seven infants and attempted the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016." to "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016." That would report the facts. Whether she really did this is denied by herself and doubted by many. Nhart129 (talk) 10:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

There was already an 'RFC' on this. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but the article is still very biased. Also, the number of reliable sources that express doubt increases all the time. Sooner or later, preferably sooner, the present text has to become more balanced. Nhart129 (talk) 18:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

The article is biased towards what reliable independent sources have said, you need to provide the sources that support your changes, otherwise it is just your personal opinion. Theroadislong (talk) 18:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Independent (today or yesterday) has a long article "Is Lucy Letby innocent? I’m a miscarriage of justice investigator – and here’s what I think...".

The Guardian, 9 Jul 2024: "Lucy Letby: killer or coincidence? Why some experts question the evidence. Exclusive: Doubts raised over safety of convictions of nurse found guilty of murdering babies."

The NewYorker, 13 May 2024: "A British Nurse Was Found Guilty of Killing Seven Babies. Did She Do It?"

The Telegraph, 10 Jul 2024: "Former Cabinet ministers concerned by Letby case".

The Telegraph, 11 Jul 2024: "Letby case ‘has echoes’ of wrongly accused Canadian nurse, says expert" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhart129 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Daily Mail, 13 Jul 2024: "What if Lucy Letby is innocent? Her case must be reopened as growing doubts about her conviction are raised by medical experts and criminologists".

National Review, 11 Jul 2024: "The Disturbingly Shaky Conviction of Lucy Letby"

BBC, 4 Jul 2024: "Lucy Letby: Courtroom drama, a failed appeal, and battles over the truth" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A471:E077:1:B62E:99FF:FE4C:71C3 (talk) 16:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

...

There are many sources that express doubt. Nhart129 (talk) 19:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

and the section "Doubts about the conviction" includes many of those sources and more, The Daily Mail cannot be used for anything on Wikipedia though. Theroadislong (talk) 19:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

You are cherry-picking and ignore my request: change in the first sentence the "who murdered" part into "who was convicted of murdering". WP must have a NPOV, and "who murdered" is not. If you dislike one of the six sources I mentioned, there are more. Nhart129 (talk) 20:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

For information: the lead sentence was intensively discussed in an RFC in December 2023 to January 2024. (RFCs are one of Wikipedia's formal processes for establishing community consensus, and their outcomes remain in effect indefinitely.) That discussion's now in our talk page archive at Talk:Lucy Letby/Archive 3#RFC on Lead sentence. NebY (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Yet the section takes no content from any of these apart from the New Yorker, while giving half a dozen quotes to various rebuttals. 2A00:23C6:AE87:3401:819E:F67F:3D19:FCF3 (talk) 07:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

We try not to rehash RFC discussions every few months unless there's been a significant change in our RSs. Now that the retrial's over, UK sources would no longer be in contempt of court and are reporting or publishing doubts and challenges; this includes sources that we've already used for other content in this article. At some point we're going to have to consider again whether we should begin with "convicted of ..." (or similar) or keep the current "who murdered". Is there a good reason to wait, for example do we expect a lot more to appear in RSs soon? If not then we might open a new RFC quite soon, though it would probably be useful to briefly workshop some alternative phrasings before opening a new RFC that would fix on one. NebY (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the RFC. I think that the situation today is different. There is serious doubt, expressed in reliable sources. A NPOV cannot choose sides. So "convicted of ..." is really necessary, it is the NPOV. I cannot think of a reason to wait. This is a doubt that is not going to disappear (unless she confesses). Nhart129 (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I personally don't have a problem with "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016." BUT Wikipedia works by consensus and until that consensus changes the wording remains as it is. Theroadislong (talk) 20:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

It's attempting the murder of seven now, too. But otherwise that is a good starter for a possible new RfC. The RfC would need that option, and the status quo ante. Anything else? I expect that we could argue that with the completion of the retrial, and the lifting of reporting restrictions, along with the coverage it is getting, that now is a good time to revisit this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

We should accept that there was and might be much support for something close to the last RFC's option A. I think it was and still is essentially a choice between three options - in brief

A: serial killer and former nurse who murdered and attempted / serial killer who while a nurse murdered and attempted...

B: former nurse who murdered and attempted

C: former nurse convicted of murdering and attempting

Could we offer well-phrased versions of all three? NebY (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I expect we should consider the term serial killer again. But that is almost a second question. We have "convicted" or not and "serial killer" or not. With two variables, we would need four options. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

The fourth permutation would be "serial killer and former nurse convicted of murdering". That seems a very unlikely choice but we could include it for completeness. NebY (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe that one should be "convicted of the serial murder of..." or "convicted of the serial killing of..." as you are quite right, it seems an unlikely choice otherwise. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah, that would make more sense. I'd guess it wouldn't be many editors' preference, but it's coherent and plausible, and completes the set of options. NebY (talk) 12:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

• Per WP:CONLEVEL, "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale". The 'wider scale' is that there was an RFC on the wording, and as Theroadislong says, until that consensus changes the wording remains as it is. The feelings of a couple of editors are not sufficient to re-open the RFC, especially when there is no consensus to do so. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 08:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

  Um... how exactly would we establish a new CONLEVEL consensus if we said no one could open a new RfC? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

With a wide consensus that an RFC needs to be re-opened or re-started. Otherwise no RFC would ever be conclusive, and would be re-opened by editors who were not satisfied with the initial outcome. The RFC was very comprehensive and involved a large number of editors, the vast majority of whom have not been informed that the RFC may now be re-started and re-opened on the feelings of only a tiny minority of those who were involved in the RFC. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 10:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

We don't have any rule that a quorum of previous participants is required to open a new RFC. There's a convention or norm (which I think is unwritten - it's not in Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Restarting an RfC) that we need circumstances to have changed, otherwise editors might call for a procedural close and trouting or worse. It does seem to me that circumstances have changed, with a swathe of fresh coverage in RSs of a sort we did not have before and a marked number of editors calling for the lead sentence to be changed in consequence of that coverage. If a new RFC is opened, I'd ping everyone who participated in the previous one including the closer, and everyone who has since come to this talk page saying the lead sentence should be changed only to be told an RFC has fixed it, and anyone else who has since argued for the current sentence or said that it's been fixed by an RFC. This would perforce exclude IP editors, and I wouldn't ping blocked or banned editors, but would put the standard notification on the talk pages of the projects listed above. I think that would be sufficient and sufficiently neutral without WP:CANVASSING. NebY (talk) 11:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Restarting an RfC outlines how to restart a RFC that has not been closed. "Anyone who wants to have more comments on the topic can restart an RfC that has ended, as long as the discussion has not been closed".

There would have to be a consensus that certain news coverage means that "circumstances have changed" enough to warrant a re-doing of the RFC. That is one interpretation, and we should not be getting into a situation whereby we restart an RFC every few months when there's a new Guardian or New Yorker article out. In fact, another interpretation is that Letby's guilt is actually more secure and confirmed now, considering that when the previous RFC was conducted it was before she was subsequently formally judged on two occasions that she had no arguable grounds for an appeal to be held, let alone for it be granted. She was then further convicted of another charge. Per WP:NOTNEWS, we are not the media, and we need to consider other things than just the line of certain newspapers. In legal terms, Letby is even more confirmed guilty than she was last time. Some in the media have written articles questioning the conviction, that is true, but it is debatable that this means that really "circumstances have changed" in regards to Letby. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Where do you find that There would have to be a consensus that certain news coverage means that "circumstances have changed" enough to warrant a re-doing of the RFC? That is not my experience and not a claim I remember seeing before, though I've participated in or observed quite a few. RFCs are sometimes procedurally closed if there is consensus that they're superfluous or vexatious, but we don't have to establish prior consensus that an RFC should be opened. NebY (talk) 12:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

As you yourself said, there's a convention or norm that we need circumstances to have changed before re-opening an RFC. It is that question of whether circumstances have changed which is the point here. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a newspaper outlines that Wikipedia is not a journal of current news. Yes, there has been some news coverage which has expressed doubt of her conviction, but on the other hand, in legal terms her convictions are actually more secure now than they were last time considering her appeals hadn't been comprehensively rejected then yet. A further conviction has also been added on top of that. There has also been a fair amount of news coverage recently which has been equally sceptical of those questioning her guilt: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 13:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

As you yourself said, I hope that future news about her allows us to revisit it, even if now is not the time.[9] Now you've presented evidence that this is the time. Remember, this would be an RFC that offers again the option you supported, "... serial killer and former neonatal nurse ...". NebY (talk) 13:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

That is a misinterpretation of what I said. I said that I hoped future news would demonstrate the need to not amplify the scope and legitimacy of doubt in a trial verdict with the opening wording. Sadly, I agree that the said 'future news' has not proved clearly that this is the time to replace it with 'serial killer', however, the 'news' has also not proved that it is the time to change it to be even less confirmatory of her guilt either. You set the criteria of circumstances needing to have changed to re-open an RFC. And my view is that they have not changed sufficiently to do so. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 13:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, so noted. NebY (talk) 14:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Unless we have an RfC about having an RfC. But maybe we should have an RfC as to whether that is an appropriate action first. :)

But this is meta now. HouseplantHobbyist, you are new to Wikipedia, aren't you? We can discuss/explain on your talk page if you like, but the general question is not relevant to this page. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I am surprised about this discussion. First: yes, circumstances have changed significantly. Earlier people in England could not discuss the case without risking "contempt of court". Now the case is closed and people can discuss, and it turns out that reliable sources express doubt about the safety of the conviction. That doubt should be expressed in the WP article, first of all in the lede, with "convicted of", but of course also in the section on Doubts. Right now there is a strange, non-encyplopaedic fragment of text "Some of Letby's friends and former colleagues ...", "believe in her innocence". But the matter is not whether anyone believes in her innocence, but whether the conviction was safe. Many, including a former commisioner at the Criminal Cases Review Commission express doubt. So, also that section has to be rewritten (but I do not have a proposal yet). An RFC is rather superfluous. NPOV forces us to change.Nhart129 (talk) 17:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Nothing prevents improvement of the body of the article, and broadly speaking that should be done before changing the lead, which (per the nutshell of WP:LEAD) should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight. That would also inform an RFC on the lead sentence, which would be required to change that sentence. Remember, Wikipedia is a collaborative enterprise that relies upon consensus and you cannot set that consensus aside merely on your personal judgment that the text which emerged from an RFC is flawed. NebY (talk) 18:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

OK, no doubt you are more experienced as a Wikipedian. I was just surprised at the terrible quality of the present article. It is protected, perhaps I cannot edit it. Nhart129 (talk) 20:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, and I'd forgotten the article protection. There has been a lot of disruption here and elsewhere on Wikipedia over this case. NebY (talk) 21:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

There is another talk page subject above about that section, where I have made some suggestions for improvements. I’m happy to have a go at rewriting it, but it would be helpful if any other editors have any comments. PerSeAnd (talk) 10:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The article is far too partial. Also far too long. So, please go for short and NPOV.

Under doubts: LL herself denies doing anything wrong. There is no concrete proof that she did anything criminal, just circumstantial evidence. That evidence is of statistical, medical, and psychological type. Some statisticians say that the statistical evidence is not incriminating at all. Some medical experts say that the wrong conclusions are drawn from the medical data. Some psychologists say that one cannot draw strong conclusions from her private notes. Altogether this brings many to doubt that there really were any crimes. After several of the deaths the coroner declared a natural death, and these were only considered murder later because LL was nearby. Some of the alleged murders were said to be committed by air injection, visible because of a skin decoloration of the baby, and an old paper from the medical literature was quoted. But the author of said paper says that one cannot draw such conclusions. Some of the alleged murders were said to be committed by insulin injection. But the lab that provided the data stated that their results could be used for medical purposes only, not for legal purposes (because the determination is rather indirect). Another reason to doubt is that there have been other cases of nurses accused of baby murder, sometimes with a very similar case setup. Lucia de Berk was convicted for a number of baby deaths where the evidence was of statistical, medical, and psychological type. In the end it turned out to be thin air, and she was exonerated. Another case is that of Susan Nelles. Nhart129 (talk) 12:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This is NOT a forum, please present sources for any changes you want to make. Wikipedia has no interest in any of our opinions on this matter. Theroadislong (talk) 12:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Not so angry. PerSeAnd asks for suggestions and I give some items that one might mention under "Doubts". The article is protected, I am not editing anything. If anyone needs reliable sources for any of these statements I'll be happy to try and provide them. Nhart129 (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems I can edit now. Have removed two spurious (and unbalanced) fragments of text from "Doubts". Will try to slowly polish this article, making it shorter and more balanced. Nhart129 (talk) 13:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit as a consensus has not been reached here for such a change. There may need to be certain edits dine to that section, but the change of that magnitude has not been agreed upon. 'More balanced' is also subjective. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Edits don't need a consensus before they are applied (unless previously reverted, when WP:ONUS applies). Bold edits are encouraged. What was the actual reason for taking these out, please? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Well I have just reverted and so, as you say, ONUS now applies. I reverted it for concerns over it's balance. As previously said, WP:IMPARTIAL states that "The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view". Whether we agree or not with the views is irrelevant, we must give the views of those whatever opinions they have. There would be a bias if only the views of Letby campaigners are included, with no right of reply for others. Removing, therefore, the direct response from Dewi Evans, sourced to a perfectly reliable source in the BBC, is not appropriate. That response from him was given due prominence by the BBC. This is particularly concerning considering that Theroadislong already had to warn Nhart129 above not to use this page as a forum for expressing their own evidently pro-Letby views on the matter. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 16:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

So what ONUS says is:

The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.

In this edit [10] inclusion is already disputed above - it is just no one removed it yet. There were two edits, and the other added or changed content, but this edit was a removal of disputed content. You reverted both. Per ONUS I'll go ahead and remove it again. My reasoning is this: this is an encyclopaedic article about the subject of Lucy Letby. Dewi Evan's medical opinion at trial is directly relevant to that page subject and should be included. His claims to have received abuse online are not, however, about Letby. They are clearly tangential to the page subject, but they are not directly relevant. Likewise I do not think that speculation about why people might harbour doubt about her conviction is directly relevant to the page. It is relevant that some do, and the linked sources will link to the opinion pieces that discuss the phenomenon. But speculation by individuals, without any empirical evidence or study, would be undue. The removal was, in my opinion, a good edit.

Nhart129, could you fill in the edit summary field when making edits on the page. It will tell other editors what you intend or your reasoning for the edit, which in this case might have avoided the reversion of your edit. Thanks. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

In which case, I will also remove content which I dispute the inclusion of, per ONUS.

1) The lead section which gives undue prominence to the fact that she pled not guilty and told a disciplinary council she is innocent. The trial found her guilty and her appeals were rejected, so why is such undue prominence given to her views? Her claims of innocence can be included in the body, they should not be given such prominence in the lead.

2) The first paragraph of the 'doubts about conviction' section. This has been extensively edited in previous months to be progressively worded to be more favourable to Letby. Phrases such as "conspiracy theories" and "a small number" have been removed, despite these phrases being the exact words used by the sources. This is an apparent violation of WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE: "Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication. Take care not to go beyond what the sources express or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context. In short, stick to the sources".

Per ONUS, this material should also not be re-added without consensus. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 19:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:POINT? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

No, removing disputed content is not disruption. Unless you're saying that your own removal of content, in the middle of our own dispute about ONUS, is also disruptive behaviour and an attempt to make a point? HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 19:59, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't dispute the content, you dispute a couple of words in it and yet you removed the whole paragraph and sources. That is WP:POINTy, as is immediately removing information elsewhere in the article to make a point about ONUS. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I beg your pardon? You don't get to tell me what I do or don't think. I dispute the content, now this talk page is the place to discuss. Stop edit warring. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 20:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

phrases such as "conspiracy theories" and "a small number" have been removed

Your rationale for removing a paragraph with multiple references, and expunging all mention of Richard Gill is because someone replaced "a small number" with "some". Haven't we been here before? How did it end for you last time? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

• Perhaps we can try and discuss this calmly and in a conciliatory manner? Let us look at the wider picture here as I think we are maybe both guilty of getting a bit heated here. An overview:

This started when I reverted [11] a new editor's large changes and additions to a controversial article, Lucy Letby, in the middle of an ongoing talk page discussion where no consensus had yet been reached and the user had themselves been warned by User:Theroadislong to stop using the page as a forum to promote apparently pro-Letby views: Talk:Lucy Letby#Very biased article. I gave my reasonings in my edit summary and then clarified further on the talk page: [12]. Because I had mentioned the policy of WP:ONUS as explaining why the content should not be re-added, Sirfurboy then did an edit that seems a bit WP:POINTy and invoked ONUS to do his own removal of content: [13]. Bare in mind this is all while the talk page discussion is still ongoing.

Sirfurboy then reverted me when I then removed content myself which I disputed, citing WP:POINT: [14]. I reverted, reminding him that there was an ongoing talk page discussion going on on ONUS, and asked him to stop edit warring: [[15]. His response? To go onto my talk page and warn me for edit warring: [16]. Sirfurboy has therefore twice used policies which I invoked or mentioned to immediately make the case for his own new edit, which seems itself a bit WP:POINTy. In fairness I have been accused of doing this as well. I wasn't actually trying to make a WP:POINT considering we were already discussing ONUS problems with the article, but I accept if editors deem my edit here incorrect.

My own view is that we are both guilty of being a bit WP:POINTy and need to calm down a bit. Could I get some guidance from other editor's here? HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 20:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, a procedural point: I did not "expunge all mention of Richard Gill". The Richard Gill mention is still there untouched. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 20:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't need to summarise the history, it is right there in the paragraphs above (with some context you omitted). If you want to discuss in a conciliatory matter, you will self revert your reverted in POINTy edit. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The conciliatory thing to do would be to revert to before any edit which could be considered POINTy, which would include mine but also your tact use of a discussion about ONUS to simultaneously remove your own choice of content on ONUS grounds: [17]. Should you self-revert this, then I will return the favour my self-reverting my edit. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 21:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that you have displayed bias, in both comment and behaviour, in this article and talk page.

Firstly, I suggested several improvements to this section that were broadly in line with Nhart129’s edits five days ago. None, yourself included, provided any feedback, other than Nhart129. We both agreed that there was issue with that section, and I attempted to reach consensus on the talk page. My intention was to make similar edits to those made over the coming weekend should I continue to receive no replies. I do not know why you could not raise your concerns in the talk page over this past week yet be available to revert edits within minutes, but it is certainly factually false that there was no attempt to initiate a discussion.

Secondly, I note certain language used. You refer to those harbouring doubts as “truthers”; an exclusively pejorative term that is usually applied to the most extreme of conspiracy theorists. This term is in pronounced discordance with the facts currently reportable, several reputable journalists quoting many field area experts.

Thirdly, having read through the previous edits, I note that you have added several somewhat tendentious rebuttals to the section on the doubts that are clearly not consensus view, and it is largely at your hand that those rebuttals now compromise more space than that given to explaining the actual doubts. I note also that you had a reverted edit on whether Aviv “reported” or “alleged” which you later snuck through as “pointed to” as part of a larger edit, with no attempt to reach consensus with the concerned editor. PerSeAnd (talk) 23:38, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I beg your pardon? An WP:ADHOMINEM attack directed at me as an editor, is that? Wikipedia:No personal attacks says you must comment on content, not on the contributor. You don't get to list off all your accusations of 'bias' against another editor and why you don't like them. In any case you are not correct on a number of grounds:

Firstly, I gave my views on the suggested changes to the article Nhart129 and subsequently you wanted. That was here on this very talk page: [18]. I didn't need to repeat my position over and over again when it was there for all to see. You sought out approval for your idea, but the discussion did not award you a consensus to make such edits.

Secondly, the phrase "truthers" has in fact been used in sources by commentators, such as here [19] and here [20]. I have never included content in the article itself using the word "truthers". So you've just been rather WP:ADHOMINEM over my 'language' I used in a talk page discussion.

Thirdly, WP:DUE outlines that "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources". WP:BALANCE also outlines "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint". So we need to give a balanced overview of the views on all sides of the debate, including those who counter the doubters of Letby's conviction. That is especially the case given that, while Letby doubters have been given recent prominence in the news, counter-doubters have also been given due prominence in sources as well: [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33]. The BBC in particular is not a source that should be disregarded as some sort of trivial contribution, especially considering Dewi Evans' response was even given airtime on BBC Radio 4: [34]. To achieve balance, we need to describe the opposing views clearly, but also from a disinterested viewpoint. WP:IMPARTIAL says "The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view". Using words such as "reported" rather seems to be presenting Aviv's opinions as fact, whereas using phrases such as "pointed to" outlines neutrally that she is using that as part of her argument.

On the subject of 'bias', what I would say constitutes bias is if we ignore WP:BALANCE and refuse to include the counter-argument of Dewi Evans that was given due prominence in the BBC, simply because editors think his views are 'not relevant' to the section. That leaves a bizarre situation where the attacks levelled on him by Aviv are considered relevant to the section but somehow his very public response to this is not because it's "irrelevant". That is quite clearly not proper WP:BALANCE, and as such if Dewi Evans' response is censored on the grounds of "irrelevance", the only proportionate thing to do would be to correspondingly remove Aviv's attacks on him from the section as well. I don't believe that this would be good for the article or is what editors want, and I think what instead is in the article's interest is a neutral and dispassionate overview of the views on both sides. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 08:17, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Stating that you are displaying bias in your approach to this article is not ad hominem, I’m truly sorry if you have taken offence as I had no intention to cause it. I rather hoped that you would take the time to reflect on what I had to say.

Lucy Letby has been found guilty of the most heinous crimes imaginable, the vast majority of the article quite rightly sets out how that came to be about. However, there are a growing number of subject matter experts raising concerns about aspects of the evidence presented in court in sources that are generally considered reputable. This small subsection should be dedicated, in the main, to setting out those concerns.

I do not believe that the long paragraph we had about Dr Evans being attacked on social media is relevant to “doubts about the conviction”, nor do I believe that the opinion pieces you have linked, many of which are red tops, are particularly relevant. The vast majority of these are simply the opinion of the journalist and offer no specific nor expert rebuttals.

I would be satisfied with a paragraph summarising that other commentators consider the convictions safe, that the prosecution expert witness stands by his evidence, and offering any specific rebuttals to the points raised should any exist.

You clearly have some insight and knowledge about this case, somewhat more than myself, therefore much that you can contribute. This talk page would be more constructive for all of us if instead of invoking policy and raising your concerns through edit warring you engaged more directly in the content of our concerns. PerSeAnd (talk) 10:03, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Making points about how you think an editor is biased is commenting on the contributor, not on content, the direct opposite of how an editor is meant to conduct themselves. The response of Dewi Evans to the trolls that attack him due to the doubt about Letby's conviction that has been publicly raised and the specific criticisms labelled at him by those such as Aviv is entirely related to the the 'doubts about conviction' section. Why do you think he was giving an interview about attacks on him in the first place? It was to respond to those who have doubted her conviction and question the safety of his role in the conviction. It's about including his direct response to those who've been attacking him online and those such as Aviv, on the specific subject of doubts about her conviction. It's not about, as you imply, just including him moaning about some tangential social media topic that's nothing to do with doubts about her conviction.

In response to "I believe that the opinion pieces you have linked, many of which are red tops, are particularly relevant... offer no specific nor expert rebuttals". Well, no. The only source there which could be described as a "red top" newspaper is the Daily Mirror. And please note that Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources outlines that the Mirror is not considered to be the same level of unreliability such as The Sun or the Daily Mail. David Wilson is an expert. In fact, as a criminologist he is an expert on, well, crime. Dewi Evans is also an expert on this case as, well, he was the lead expert witness, and regardless of those who are unhappy with him the court accepted the veracity of his evidence and upheld this on appeal when it was questioned. Judith Moritz was also the BBC's lead reporter on the Letby trial, very much an expert on the conviction of Letby. Dr Jessica Taylor is a psychologist, so she's entitled to give her views on the psychological reasons some have chosen to support Letby.

Rachel Aviv's article is itself an opinion piece, I don't know if you have realised. She's not an all-knowing deity. Her views can and should be mentioned, but not the point where only hers are mentioned and anyone who responds to her criticisms or offers a conflicting view are barred from being mentioned. There is such thing as WP:BALANCE. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 10:48, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

What is ad hominem, of course, is saying of another editor: ... and the user had themselves been warned by Theroadislong to stop using the page as a forum when that was irrelevant to an edit that removed a passage you added but 3 editors had criticised. In particular, I would remind you that we give genuine new users more latitude per WP:BITE, as they are less aware of the rules and policies we have here. And, of course, you did use the word "truthers" [35] so PerSeAnd has a point. As for your removal of all mention from the lead summary that Letby herself pled not guilty and maintained that stance at retrial, that was clearly a POINTy edit because you did it in retaliation for the removal of the Dewi Evans additional opinion, even though removal of that paragraph actually has a very clear nascent consensus of 3:1. It is POINTy because you wrote In which case, I will also remove content which I dispute the inclusion of, per ONUS and then went ahead and removed that from the lead. Yet it is in the article, and the lead summarises the article. You merely damaged the lead, which is disruptive. You then (above) tried to negotiate the restoration of that to the lead if I would restore your Dewi Evans paragraph.[36] Again demonstrating that the removal was POINTy. This is disruptive editing. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I did not suggest that I think you are biased or have any reason to be. I pointed out that your edits and talk page discussion display bias on the subject. That is a comment on your content and not on you, it is not ad hominem. We are all susceptible to bias, if it were pointed out to me I would take some time to reflect. But if you won’t do that, you would do best to accept that my intention was good faith and move past this point.

I will request that you moderate the tone of your replies to me. Please avoid using terms like “Well, no.” in response to the points I raise, or condescending remarks such as “…I don’t know if you have realised.” If you can’t do that then I do not think we can have a serious discussion on the content of this article.

The links you provided include two articles in The Mirror, which is a red top, one article in a student paper directly quoting one of the Mirror’s articles, and one article in a local newspaper with the headline Inside creepy Lucy Letby fan group for 'perverts obsessed with baby killer'. Not technically a red top, but the same level of journalism I would expect from one. That’s almost a quarter of the sources you have asked me to look at, and a handful are from the verdict last summer so are not topical to the current zeitgeist.

Rachel Aviv’s piece was not simply stating her opinion, it directly quoted the opinion of experts she had spoken to. It was an investigative piece, not an op-ed. David Wilson is an expert, I agree, but that article is an opinion piece, and it is from last summer so does not mention any of the recent points raised. Judith Moritz is not an expert; her reporting has been given due weight in the parts of the article where it is relevant.

I do not imply anything about Dr Evans, I state that him saying he has been attacked on social media is only a tangential point about those expressing doubts. I do not think it is worth mentioning in this section, but it certainly did not require the amount of space dedicated to it. By the way, I listened to the radio show you linked, and he does not point to any specific attacks even when asked directly by the host. PerSeAnd (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• User:Sirfurboy, consensus is not achieved by the number of editors on either side. Wikipedia:Consensus outlines that "consensus is determined by the quality of arguments, not by a simple counted majority". So whether there was a 3-1 split is irrelevant (and in any case it would be better described as 3-2 considering User:Theroadislong was involved and stated his own scepticism of Nhart129's suggested edits, saying: "The article is biased towards what reliable independent sources have said, you need to provide the sources that support your changes, otherwise it is just your personal opinion", "and the section "Doubts about the conviction" includes many of those sources and more" and "Wikipedia has no interest in any of our opinions on this matter").

It is not ad hominem to remind editors of the warning an editor had received, which is an objective fact. It is ad hominem to make assumptions and speculate on an editor's intentions. I was not the one who started off making POINTy edits, you did Sirfurboy. I said that ONUS means that content should not now be restored so you used this to remove your own chosen section of content with the brusque phrase "Per ONUS I'll go ahead and remove it again" and "Per talk and per ONUS, removing this disputed content". You were being POINTy in regards to the ONUS policy, using it after I had invoked it to make the case for your own removal of content. My position has always been therefore that I will self-revert the edit I made subsequently which you regard as counter-POINTy but only if you self-revert your own POINTy edit. You declined.

My own view at this point was we were both guilty of being a bit WP:POINTy and need to calm down a bit. So I then suggested to you on talk that we should both calm down a bit and discuss thing in a conciliatory manner, and I tried to ask for other editor's views on the matter: [37]. In the morning, instead of engaging in the discussion you appeared to retaliate by suddenly removing a range of long-standing content in the article that was unfavourable to Letby or of the doubts about her conviction, the topic which had originally been the point of dispute in the first place: [38], [39]. This edit [40] in particular to the introduction section, removing a section about part of the evidence the prosecution used to convict her, seems to be in direct response and retaliatory to when I removed what I thought was the undue prominence given to her claims of innocence in the introduction yesterday. You attempted to re-add the innocence claims to the lead, despite it being subject to an ongoing discussion on talk, calling it an 'update': [41]. I reverted and reminded you that the talk page discussion was ongoing and that was where the matter should now be decided: [42]. Yet you re-added the disputed content again [43], claiming "It is clearly leadworthy that she pleaded innocent". I had to revert you again and ask you to stop edit warring at this point: [44]. Then, you added a neutrality tag, opening no specific talk page discussion despite Template:POV clearly saying: "Please also explain on the article's talk page why you are adding this tag, identifying specific issues that are actionable within Wikipedia's content policies". HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

My own view at this point was we were both guilty of being a bit WP:POINTy. I accept your competence in assessing your own guilt. So please go ahead and self revert your edit to the lead. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:46, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I told you, if you revert yours. Yours was the initial offence, so I'm not self-reverting anything if you refuse to self-revert yours. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 12:49, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I have now reverted this edit to the status quo. You have admitted the edit was WP:POINTy, although I don’t accept the tit-for-tat reasoning on Sirfurboy’s edit. PerSeAnd (talk) 15:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree the page should be reverted to the status quo before this all started. So have done so. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 15:24, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

“I agree…” although it should be obvious to anyone reading this talk page, I’ll point out that is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. PerSeAnd (talk) 15:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

From WP:STATUSQUO, it says that an appropriate tag should be added to the section in dispute, so I have done so for the disputed "doubts about conviction" section. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 15:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually I've re-added the tag at the top as well, considering the wider issues in dispute e.g. the introduction HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 15:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• User:PerSeAnd, I've just attempted to neutralise the section a bit by giving more space to the content of the Guardian and Telegraph articles and more quotes from them, while reducing the ones from the counter articles and the space given to them. Is this in the right direction of things? See here: [45] HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 15:57, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2024

Secretary of State for Justice (UK) should be without the (UK) 86.147.210.198 (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I have looked and do not see anywhere where it is qualified with (UK) in the article. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

It exists in a piped link, [[Secretary of State for Justice (UK)|Secretary of State for Justice]]. Please note, though, that this IP user is the banned editor "Earl of Sutton Coldfield", AKA "Mr Hall of England". Although I agree with the request, I'm not inclined to make the change myself. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 10:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

To HouseplantHobbyist

User:HouseplantHobbyist, you act as if you own this page, and I would need your permission to change anything. I am rather new here, but still I do not think a page has an owner.

You reverted two edits of mine. Why precisely? One removed material too far removed from the topic of this page. That the lead witness received threats. I do not think that belongs here. This page has to be condensed.

The present page read something like "LL is a murderer, a monster. Some have doubts but they are amateurs and nitwits". Not precisely a NPOV. One does not have to report on fringe positions, but doubting is not a fringe position. I see David James Smith, a former commissioner at the Criminal Cases Review Commission write about his doubts ("I’m a miscarriage of justice investigator"). Since he is not an amateur, and also statisticians and medical experts are not amateurs, the first sentence of the doubts section was inappropriate and I removed that. Do you insist on those "amateurs from the internet" words? You see, in order to keep the article honest the part "Doubts" should in a fair way, and well-sourced, describe the views of those who doubt.

So, I do not think you should have reverted. I only improved the page, in a rather neutral way.

You think I am biased but I am not sure why. I try to achieve a balanced article.

You remove somebody's fragment "Letby pleaded not guilty". Don't you think that in a balanced article the fact that LL claims to be innocent should be mentioned as an important item? Nhart129 (talk) 21:47, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Nhart129, a large amount of what you ask there is addressed by me in the previous thread, you don't need to open more and more. I would like to remind you of two things: first, that you've already been warned by User:Theroadislong to stop using this page as a forum to express your own opinions on the case. This is not the place for detective work. Secondly, I believe some of your comments towards me and my editing is is violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks. WP:NOTCENSORED also outlines the issues of forbidding content on certain matters in articles. It is not balanced to allow the views of those who criticise Dewi Evans in the article, but those who defend him, including himself, to be censored out of the article. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 22:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

"Addressed by me in the previous thread" - perhaps, I find it difficult to read, and you and S are edit warring, that is not my style. As far as I can see you have not given any concrete reason to revert my edits. "New editor" - true, be happy! And while edit warring you did not just revert but also removed the part "Letby pleaded not guilty". Why? Nhart129 (talk) 22:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, I already explained that in the previous thread. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 22:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

OK - You do not answer questions and are edit warring. Probably I should no longer assume good faith. Let me go away for the time being. This article looks hopeless. Nhart129 (talk) 00:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should Letby's maintaining of innocence go in the introduction or in the body?

User:Sirfurboy, you are making no attempt to engage with the discussion on this and instead just repeatedly attempting to re-add the content. You've also opened no talk page discussion after adding a neutrality tag, so I will do so for you here.

The question is whether it is due to devote a section of the introduction to how Letby says she is innocent is a legitimate one and needs to be discussed. I have no issue with her maintaining her innocence being mentioned in the body, but the question is why should we give such prominence to the convict in the introduction when their defence has now repeatedly been denied not just at trial but also on two attempted appeals? I see no policy that states that we must always highlight in the introduction of pages about convicted murderers that they maintain innocence. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 10:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The neutrality discussion is above. Section "Very biased article". Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Template:POV says that, when adding a new neutrality tag: "Please also explain on the article's talk page why you are adding this tag, identifying specific issues that are actionable within Wikipedia's content policies". It's not sufficient to just say oh well there was another discussion about neutrality before so you don't need to set out here why you are adding this tag. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 11:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Attacks on Dewi Evans

There is a paragraph on attacks on attacks on Dewi Evans in the 'Doubts about Conviction' section. Is it worth following this section with a bit about who is making these attacks? The Guardian article quotes two sources happy to go on record as having reported reported him to the GMC?

″ Dr Svilena Dimitrova, an NHS consultant neonatologist who is part of the government-appointed Ockenden review investigating deaths and harm allegedly caused to dozens of babies in Nottingham University NHS hospital trust, is one of five who the Guardian understands has approached the GMC in relation to evidence given by Evans. She said she took this step having been approached by multiple consultant neonatologists and paediatricians, and specialist neonatal nurses, who flagged up their concerns to her but were frightened to go public.″

″ Roger Norwich, a medico-legal expert with an interest in paediatrics and newborns, has also made complaints to the GMC. He has put in a complaint about Evans, and has also put in a complaint about the second witness, Bohin. He said he thought both had failed to provide balanced, impartial views, instead giving the court “opinions that would not be supported by most doctors”.″

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:AE87:3401:3167:EF7B:A102:C6C4 (talk) 23:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)