Talk:Deaths in June 2018

Conjoined twins "notable" for being conjoined twins.

How many millions of twins were born conjoined in the modern history of the world? I too do not believe that the freakish nature of the condition is remarkable enough to qualify here on its own. And I can't see anything else remarkable about Maria and Consolata Mwakikuti, apart from their ability to live to 21 with the condition untreated. Not enough notability as a starting redlink, in my opinion, and I think it needs discussion, given that the status as I type is WITH their inclusion. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:17, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree that notability is not evident. The 30-day rule is not a right for any death, there must be potential to satisfy the relevant condition for notability. I generally tolerate borderline cases, knowing that they will disappear after one month anyway. In this case, an article will never be created and remain. Does not satisfy any part of WP:NOTE. WWGB (talk) 15:31, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

It feels recently people think since outlets like BBC talk about certain things then they’re notable. But in this case their conjoinment isn’t a unique story compared to other twins and in my opinion doesn’t meet notability. The 30 day rule isn’t necessarily mandatory when it comes to certain individuals that will definitely not meet notability. Rusted AutoParts 16:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Happening to die conjoined is sort of like happening to die as the oldest in your country. Which is to say meh, but good enough for thirty days. More coverage will come in weeks ahead; whether or not there's enough for an article is something someone should be prodded into considering, much like they are for the day's dead obscure painter, inventor and priest. But they're two people in that body, so I split their entries. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:22, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

We have notable examples of conjoined twins here. Some used their quirk to make money, but others are apparently just known for sticking together or coming apart. I think there's a chance these women could make the latter group. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Conjoined or split, I'm still not convinced. More of a wide-ranging consensus-build required here, I believe. Ref ^(chew)(do) 06:02, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sold on them staying or going, but as long as they're here, the human in me merely insists they're listed as distinct people. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:48, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Two people, two entries. If the first had died close to midnight, they might even have died on different days. WWGB (talk) 05:24, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

The number of conjoined twins who lived until adult age without being separated are not that many, so I think that that alone qualifies them for a notability criteria. In this case, they also seemed to be quite famous in their native country. And of course they should have separate entries in the list. --Marbe166 (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

17th: Ouk Phalla

this link goes to Norodom Ranariddh. This doesn't seem right to me! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.9.94.243 (talk) 06:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

That is the article of her husband. The deceased does not have her own article. WWGB (talk) 06:58, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Our parameters do not allow notability by association, which is what that link is. But we are more or less powerless to dictate where a bluelink goes when displayed, given the consensus possibly in force at the link/article page. So if it redirects "legitimately" to a dubious end, so be it I suppose. It shouldn't stop us including a person of vague notability who is getting many internet mentions upon decease. Ref ^(chew)(do) 11:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Peter Clifton

All I have for Australian director Peter Clifton is this source. While it says "reportedly" it is written in form of a standard obituary and I don't see why we should doubt about him. I'm worried Clifton won't get more obits than this. Plus I report the passing of British actresses Elizabeth Chambers and Yvonne Gilan. Press appears to have completely forgotten about them. Hope everyone will get his/her due proper obituary.--Folengo (talk) 19:33, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

It’s poor sourcing that can’t really state with confirmation it’s the case. That’s why I objected. And the second source goes without saying. Rusted AutoParts 19:37, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, Folengo - first example from self-admittedly unofficial Led Zep fanzine, and the other two from Twitter? Not a chance. Ref ^(chew)(do) 20:45, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not a noob and did not want to put Twitter sources here absolutely. Just reporting their passings while we wait for proper obits. Can't sign right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Folengo (talk • contribs) 21:10, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Should wait for proper notices, then report. If we went the other way around, we'd have a lot of living people listed dead here for months, years or decades. That said, I personally believe these early stories. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:42, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Note that Wikipedia had already called him dead on June 1. Perhaps this is where Anne Houston read it on June 7. Maybe not, but he seems unlikely to have died on the 17th, if at all. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

• )I reported them in this discussion, not on the page.
• )When I added Clifton I specified "death announced on this date".
• )Clifton and Chambers won't probably get nothing else ath this point. Hopefully Gilan will. Director Cyril Frankel did not get nothing. Damned journals. --Folengo (talk) 16:05, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I only try to use social media for additional details. When listing on the deaths list is when a news article/obituary is a must. I also try social media when so much time passes and absolutely nothing new develops in the news. FWIW Frankel died June 7. Rusted AutoParts 16:09, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

To your credit, you did DAotD it. But you used the post about the announcement's date, not the announcement's. Subtle difference and easy mistake, no hard feelings. Fun Fact: Cyril Frankel died in obscurity on Dean Martin's 100th birthday, which was loudly celebrated regardless of his absence, perhaps due to his own death being (relatively) lost in the shuffle amidst the 2,000th(ish) birthday celebrations of an even bigger pop icon. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:59, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Lesandro Guzman-Feliz

Please add Lesandro Guzman-Feliz under June 20. I am not sure if that name alphabetizes under "G" or "F". Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Not me. That is a link to an event occurrence article where the notability of the subject is clearly debatable - sadly, one of too many youths who die for no reason. It also won't automatically qualify for inclusion because it's a bluelink either. Perhaps some other editor? (I've never ever heard of Guzman-Feliz, and it seems from the incident article that he's now famous just for dying in a gory way.) Ref ^(chew)(do) 20:14, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

We had a long discussion about this very type of circumstance. (Here: Talk:Deaths in May 2017#Ian Brady.) Bottom line: I opine that he should be added. I will do it myself. But, as I said, I am not sure if that name alphabetizes under "G" or "F". Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:19, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I am putting it under "G", alphabetically. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:38, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Be careful throwing around "murder" if "American boy" doesn't work for a descriptor. Sure, there's video and sure, the suspects are thugs. But they're untried thugs. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. A crime does not need to be tried in a court of law to be called a "murder". Police work on "murder cases" every day of the week, before a "murder" conviction is secured. If, indeed, one is ever secured. (And reliable sources concurrently report on them.) One really has nothing to do with the other. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:41, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

We've been down this road before, you and I. We both had a pretty lousy time explaining things to each other (if I'm not confusing you with someone else). I still contend a "murder case" is simply called that because it's a collection of evidence intended to prove murder, and is more commonly called a "homicide investigation" when police do it. WP:BLPCRIME will repeat the same points about presumption of innocence it and I always have, if you want to revisit it. Still contains no exceptions for anyone, even living goons. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, we can agree to disagree. But, I will offer some clear-cut examples. The Black Dahlia (Elizabeth Short) was murdered, even though no one was convicted of murder in that case. Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman were murdered, even though no one was convicted of murder in that case. All of the victims at the Columbine High School massacre and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and the Virginia Tech shooting and the 2017 Las Vegas shooting and the Pulse Nightclub / Orlando nightclub shooting were murdered, even though no one was convicted of murder in those cases. All of the victims of the Zodiac Killer and the Boston Strangler and Jack the Ripper were murdered, even though no one was convicted of murder in those cases. Murder-suicides happen all the time and are deemed to be "murders", even though no one is ever convicted of murder in such cases. My point is that a crime can be -- and often is -- called a "murder", independent of any criminal ever being convicted of "murder". Come to think of it, I guess that the victim of Aaron Hernandez (Murder of Odin Lloyd) was never "murdered", because the murder conviction of Aaron Hernandez was legally thrown out (via abatement ab initio)? As I said above, one really has nothing to do with the other. Under your theory, there would be no such thing as a "murder-suicide" or even an "unsolved murder", since -- by definition -- no one is ever (legally) convicted of any murders in such cases. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:33, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Remember Muath Al-Kasasbeh? I don't think I was thinking of that time in particular, but we sure as hell agreed to disagree about that guy. Anyway, for old time shouting's sake, if the suspects are dead, it's not prejudicial, just unproven! Still not great, but much better. When living people are awaiting trial for any crime, it's a whole other ball game. You know it, the news knows it, we all know it. And you should already damn well know what happens to people like Hernandez. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:47, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, we can agree to disagree. One flaw in your theory (at least, one flaw): sometimes, the suspect is not dead. (Perhaps, with a living suspect, the prosecutor cannot muster up a decent / provable case.) That does not make the victim any less "murdered". Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:55, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Plenty of killers walking free today and innocent people locked up for murder. Courts aren't perfect, they're just the accepted standard for matters of guilt. Using the same standard and somehow arriving at the conclusion that Nicole Simpson was murdered but O.J. Simpson isn't a murderer is an egregious failure of our own little society, but I've let that one go for now. Now you let this one go for now. Quid pro quo, yo! InedibleHulk (talk) 04:11, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

George Lindemann

I added George Lindemann's death[1] info to his infobox. Not much is being reported by the WSJ, WAPO, NYT or local Palm Beach, FL press other than he passed away last week. I cite ref'd the date of death in the infobox but did not create a death section. Not sure if I did it right. Check it out and correct. Please leave feedback on my talk for any death reporting tips. Thanks P37307 (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

WSJ had DOD as June 21. He’s listed there now. Rusted AutoParts 20:03, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Carlos Campos

Carlos Campos, d. June 28, is listed as "former Governor of Anzoátegui", as taken, most likely, from the source. However, he is listed nowhere at Anexo:Gobernador de Anzoátegui, the list of all state governors. I know my Español is poor, but not that poor. — Wyliepedia @ 18:07, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

It could be an omission by that Wikipedia article. It would be correct to follow the info supplied by a non-Wikipedia reliable independent source rather than an internally-generated article, so I can't see any action being taken on the subject entry until things become clearer internally and/or externally. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:47, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Right. I just mentioned it here, should an attempt be made to create an article. There's not an es-wiki, which I searched for to ill it here, then broadened my search for anything about him to change the "former" to a yearspan. All I found was our source which cites a tweet, as usual. T minus 27 days... — Wyliepedia @ 21:37, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Nika Brettschneiderová

this looks like a case (inflection??) of Nika Brettschneider ? Not sure where it would belong. IMDb also has this under Nika Brettschneiderová , but several pages on de-Wikipedia list her as Nika Brettschneider (though not consistently, one or two pages on that site use the suffix.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 04:40, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

I totally agree. The translation programmes I use, including Google's, all convert her surname to Brettschneider. Ref ^(chew)(do) 05:28, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

She is now a redirect to Charter 77. — Wyliepedia @ 12:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, another pointless redirect that will still see the death entry deleted in one month. It also means that real editors are less likely to write an article in the absence of a redlink to alert them. Editors who bung in a meaningless redirect should realise they do more harm than good. WWGB (talk) 12:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Don't shoot the messenger. Some of us try to add the {{ill}} to a name in such a case. There isn't one for her at the cz- nor the de-wiki (her German page redirects to Theater Brett), Anglicized name or otherwise. Honestly, she should be listed as Nika Brettschneiderová. — Wyliepedia @ 14:43, 3 July 2018 (UTC)