Jump to content

Talk:Edward Thonen

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Former good article nomineeEdward Thonen was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 26, 2023Good article nomineeNot listed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 17, 2022.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Edward Thonen, one of the miners killed in the Eureka Rebellion, had gained notoriety in England as a jewellery thief prior to his emigration to Australia?

Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:39, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(
)
  • ... that Edward Thonen, one of the miners killed in the Eureka Rebellion, had gained notoriety in England as a jewellery thief prior to his emigration to Australia? Source: Bamberger, Daniel; Young, Anne (November 2022). "Edward Thonen (1827-1854)". Ballarat Link. Ballarat & District Genealogical Society (214), pages 10–11. Quote: "New research has revealed a previously unknown episode in the life of one of the diggers killed in the Eureka Rebellion. Edward Thonen, one of the leaders of the rebels, was killed when soldiers stormed the Stockade. Before coming to Australia, Thonen spent some time in England, where he gained notoriety as a diamond thief."
    • ALT1: ... that a long forgotten folk song about Edward Thonen, one of the miners killed in the Eureka Rebellion, was rediscovered by Kay Dreyfus in the 1980s, and inspired a symphony by her husband George? Source: Dreyfus, George (1995). "Nette Deutsche, liebe Australier, doch trotzdem könnt Ihr zusammen leben: Diverse Auseinandersetzungen mit nationaler Identität". Zeitschrift für Australienstudien / Australian Studies Journal. 9: 39. https://thestacks.libaac.de/bitstream/handle/11858/2070/NAAS_09-1995_02_Dreyfus.pdf (The main fact is found on page 3 of the PDF.)
    • Reviewed:
    • Comment: Disclaimer, I am one of the authors (Daniel Bamberger) of the source cited above. While the connection to Dreyfus's 1984 symphony has been known for decades, the story about the diamond robbery is a recent discovery.

Created by Renerpho (talk). Self-nominated at 16:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  • Comment by nominator I have added a sentence to more adequately reflect the contribution by the community of researchers on WikiTree, which preceded the publication in BDGS. I have also done some additional copy-editing, but I am done with that now. Renerpho (talk) 01:27, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: None required.

Overall: @Renerpho: Good article. Hooks are interesting, article is sourced, and the QPQ is not required. Onegreatjoke (talk) 14:52, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article creator's involvement in primary research

[edit]

In their recent edit, Animalparty suggested that "Ultimately" needs a citation. The possibility of WP:OR should be closely scrutinized, given the creator's involvement in primary research. I am that article creator.

As a first step, I have just removed the unsourced sentence ("Ultimately, Edward's role in the German revolutions is unclear; and while a political motivation is possible, there is little evidence that his travel to England was anything else but business-related"), and the {{cn}} tag that went with it. I believe that this sentence wasn't even necessary. I have tried to remain neutral when writing the article, but I agree that this statement was speculative, and that it lacked a source beyond our own research. In the preceding paragraph the article notes that the literature on Thonen is full of speculation, so I am in good company.

I support Animalparty's suggestion. If I can assist, just ping me. Renerpho (talk) 10:42, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Renerpho, if you are the author of any of the sources, please refer to WP:SELFCITE for guidance (if you haven't already). Looking at the sources themselves, I don't think citing an email is appropriate and could be classed as WP:OR as an email is not a reliable published source. I also have reservations about citing Wikitree as it is user-generated (see this post and this post for some previous consensus). Hope this is helpful Unexpectedlydian♯4talk‽ 23:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Unexpectedlydian: First of all, thanks for the comment, and apologies for the late response.
Regarding WikiTree, I think there is a difference between mentioning a website that includes user-generated content, and using that website as a source. I don't think WikiTree is ever used as a source here. The article links to it in two instances. First, in a footnote from the lead section, where WikiTree is mentioned in the context of the role it played in the research. And then again in the "external links" section. The first isn't a source, but part of the article content; the second is the quickest way for the reader to find additional information, including primary and secondary sources. That second link may be removed without leaving anything unsourced, but that would just make it harder for the reader to find additional information. If the article Superpermutation can link to an anonymous 4chan post then we can link to WikiTree, too.
Regarding emails, I generally agree, but as I said, I also don't like obscuring references where it isn't necessary. We could just link to my published article instead; but which is better: Saying that there is an email conversation with the other historian, and that it is mentioned in a published but hard-to-access source, or just giving the text of the email directly? Renerpho (talk) 23:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Renerpho, thanks for explaining the Wikitree links. I think that's fine. As for the emails, I'd argue that the emails are a primary source and therefore WP:PRIMARYSOURCE may apply, which urges that only reputable published primary sources should be used. Your article explaining the research is a secondary source, and even though it is hard to access, it is better for a Wikipedia article. Hope that makes sense! Unexpectedlydian♯4talk‽ 14:38, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The email sources have been replaced. Renerpho (talk) 17:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Edward Thonen/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Steelkamp (talk · contribs) 01:55, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this soon. Steelkamp (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good article criteria

[edit]

Well written

[edit]
  • the Stockade. Should this be in lowercase? Eureka Rebellion has it in lowercase when Eureka is left out.
 Done I believe the literature had it either way. For the time being, there's no damage done by making it lower case. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Elberfeld's citizens joined in late on the democrats' cause during the revolution. Is there a page that democrats can be linked to?
 Done Linked to democracy. This is what the disambiguation page Democrat currently does, too. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Removed. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiable with no original research

[edit]
  • I'm concerned about note A. Even though it's not used as a source, the page linked is a wiki, which is advised against in most situations.
  • Reference 4 will definitely need to be removed.
 Done Reference 3 works for that (see next comment). Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Moved. These references were intended to refer to the entire sentence. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • ^ Is that paragraph even needed at all?
    • This makes up a significant portion of the discussion about Thonen in scholarly articles (which is sparse in general, for lack of concrete evidence). I can only speculate why so much focus was put on this, because I personally see little evidence that he was involved in the events. If there had been no prior mention of Thonen in published works, and we had written his story from scratch, there would have been no portion on the 1848–1849 revolutions. However, given that people have talked about it, I think it is worth including. Is it needed? I honestly don't know. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The historian Gregory Blake states in his 2013 thesis that Edward may have been among them,[7] although there is no proof of his participation, or that he even was in Elberfeld at the time. This entire section seems too shaky to include. WP:SCHOLARSHIP says "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." Can you demonstrate that reference 7 satisfies this?
  • have pointed out that England had become a kind of safe haven for political refugees from Germany, and that Thonen may have been among those who found it more suitable, be it forcefully or on his own accord. This has no reference. Can reference 9 be moved to the end of that sentence?
 Done Moved. Reference 9 was the intended source in this case. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thonen would likely have travelled via Cologne, and from there to Brussels, using the Cologne-Aachen-railway. This was Prussia's most busy passenger railway line at the time, and the oldest international railway line in the world. This seems to be original research. The sources do not mention Thonen. I also question the reliability of reference 50.
 Done Removed note, which includes reference 50. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thonen moved to Islington, London. This seems to be original research. The Ancestry website displays a primary source. There is no proof that the Edward Thonen in that source is the same one.
    • There is proof, yes (the census record gives his place of origin, Elberfeld, and his age; that's enough to identify him). That said, you are right that this is a primary source. I'll think about an alternative! Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Broad in its coverage

[edit]
  • praising his ability to speak numerous European languages. Do we know which languages?
 Done I added that this includes French, German, Dutch, and Spanish. It is not clear which languages he actually taught, and the list of specific languages only appears in the news reports from the 1890s. Such a list is not included in any of the 1852 news reports or court documents we found. However, we were unable to find the direct source for the 1890s reports, so a contemporary source for this may very well exist somewhere, and I think the statement is believable. Reference 2 says that he could speak French, German, Dutch, Spanish, every European tongue. I don't think the every European tongue part is literally true. Renerpho (talk) 14:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

[edit]

Stable

[edit]

Illustrated, if possible

[edit]

General

[edit]

I'm going to have to fail this review. There has been no progress with the sourcing recently. Steelkamp (talk) 07:06, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly there was absolutely no time to work on this (or on Wikipedia in general). Sorry to Steelkamp for the effort they invested so far. I hope I'll be able to return to this article eventually and provide the work it needs. Renerpho (talk) 21:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New source

[edit]

A detailed article about Thonen, written by Anne Young and myself, has been deposited on 22 August 2023 at the Eureka Centre in Ballarat and at the Museum Industriekultur in Wuppertal, Germany. I make that article available via Google Drive, which I may replace by a link to an open access preprint server in the future. For the moment, I suggest the following citation format: D. Bamberger, A. Young: Edward Thonen. A forgotten Eureka rebel. WikiTree Germany Connector's Challenge. Zeitgeschichtliche Sammlung, Zentrum für Stadtgeschichte und Industriekultur Wuppertal. 2023. Renerpho (talk) 23:27, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Edward_Thonen&oldid=1205420565"