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Passed. —Kusma (talk) 21:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Will review this soon! —Kusma (talk) 12:11, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Muchas gacias, mi amigo. I look forward to working with you on it. SusunW (talk) 13:46, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Always a pleasure @SusunW! I think it is ready for you to take a look at my comments. —Kusma (talk) 16:18, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much. I've answered a bunch and need your input. I've ordered the NYT review of the book and will let you know when I get it. SusunW (talk) 19:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma I got the review and added it. Link is below and maybe you can access it? SusunW (talk) 19:56, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look at this tomorrow in detail again. Had to go pick up visitors from abroad today. SusunW (talk) 22:55, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SusunW: I will pass this now, but I am happy to look over and chat about any additional research you do about Elena and her family. —Kusma (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lead section: Need to remember to take a second look when I am done with the rest.
prominent politician's family I think it is only her father who is a politician? From what we have later "upper class family; her father was a politician" would work better.
True, but politician's is singular. Had both parents been politicians it would have been politicians's, but no matter. I can't figure out a way to include all of that data in the single sentence, so have just said into an upper-class family. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
organizational policy of recruiting upper-class women did they admit everyone but only actively recruit upper-class women? Not quite sure what the policy was
They only wanted upper-class women in the organization, period. No rabble-rousers, only well-behaved women who would give them a lovely reputation. But, because it's the lede I've trimmed it to resigned over policy issues and lack of focus on women's rights. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
her history was lost until scholars in the twenty-first century began uncovering her legacy perhaps this could be said with slightly less grand words: she was forgotten, but rediscovered in the twenty-first century.
I've done it for the sake of neutrality, but it doesn't set well because it was not just that she was forgotten. As you know there was an actual intent to make women's contributions disappear. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Difficult to prove intent in these things, though. And Landázuri was no scientist. In any case, my point here was more that "her history was lost" sounds to me as if there was no trace of her anymore, but it doesn't seem to have been too difficult to uncover. —Kusma (talk) 21:05, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. Whether she was a scientist or not, the statistics on the number of publications about women before the women's movement forced academics to include women in history are dismal. Only 13 textbooks published in the US prior to 1960 dealt with women in history. The Mexican feminist trajectory followed the US and while I don't have stats on the number of books, my experience in reading Marta Lamas and others tells me it was extremely low. SusunW (talk) 22:55, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Early life and education: Returning to Mexico, in 1882 he was appointed almost overlooked the comma and thought he returned in 1882. Perhaps clarify? "After returning to Mexico, he was appointed ... in 1882"? Or if you know when he returned, state that?
Just re-researched when he left Spain and cannot figure it out. Isabella died in 1875, but I cannot imagine her death would have impacted his job, i.e. he could hire a governess whether in Spain or Mexico to watch his children. I hesitate to say after returning since the previous sentence starts after serving, so have just said He returned to Mexico and in 1882,. If that works done. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Her mother was the daughter of Ana Rívas and Ignacío Gíl Romero. and we know nothing about them?
I found nada except this one sentence which says he was some sort of a trustee and this, which seems to indicate that they operated the hacienda San Pedro Lagunillas, but what that farm produced, I have no idea. (You must remember that in Latin America, very, very few records are digitized, so short of going to Guadalajara (+/- 2000 km from here), it is doubtful I'll find more).If you think I should add the bit about the hacienda, I can. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mario (1915–1916) and Raul Sandoval Landázuri (1916) so they both died very young? Can you be explicit about that?
No. See note above regarding sourcing difficulties. None of the biographical materials mention children at all. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, there is an engineer called Raul Sandroval Landazuri who was active in the 1950s [1] and has a place in Oaxaca named after him [2]. He had a brother called Alberto Sandoval Landazuri (who did chemistry). Unless these are common names, perhaps these are worth investigating. Alberto was born in 1918 [3] so that would fit. According to [4], Alberto's father was a (homeopathic?) doctor who lived in calle do Ciencias no. 8 in Tacubaya, which almost fits with Raul's birth entry. Worth checking out I think. In any case, I would suggest to write "Raul Sandoval Landázuri (born 1916)" to clarify you don't know that he died. —Kusma (talk) 21:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think Raul lived 1916 to 1956 [5]. (Died in a plane crash) [6]. —Kusma (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, my current thinking is that you should drop all of the husband and children. There are two quite notable children that are not mentioned in any secondary sources about our Elena, and there are other places where Elena is "Miss Landazuri" or "Mademoiselle Landazuri" [7] or "Señorita Landazuri". Although titles do not always indicate marriage status (my most recent example is Mrs Blackburne, who never married) I would prefer to err on the side of caution and assume "Miss Landazuri" and the mother of Mario, Raul, and Alberto, could be two different people. —Kusma (talk) 09:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On her death certificate, she seems to be "unmarried", while some women a few pages later in the same book are "widow of husband". —Kusma (talk) 14:21, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is truly a puzzlement why none of the secondary sources about her list a husband and family. Negrete who started me down this road, is very clear that her parents were Dolores Gil and Pedro Landázuri and she was born in 1888 in Tacubaya. The birth record shows the birth of María Elena Landázuri Gil on 30 December 1888 in Tacubaya daughter of Pedro Landázuri, the deputy in the National Congress and Delores Gil de Landázuri and with paternal grandparents José Vicente Landázuri and Vicenta Diéz de Landázuri and maternal grandparents Ignacio Gil Romero and Ana Rivas Góngora(?) de Gil. This is the exact same birth information as given in the Diccionario enciclopédico del feminismo y los estudios de género en México. The marriage record gives Pedro and Delores as parents of the bride and Teodoro Sandoval and Hilaria Delgado as parents of the groom, Luis Sandoval Delgado. Both Mario and Raul Sandoval Landázuri's birth records whow they were born in Tacubaya and give parents as Luis Sandoval and María Landázuri with grandparents of Teodoro and Hilaria and Pedro and Delores. I read through your links on Raul and it's very interesting. Although I have searched, I cannot find a full biography on him either. It certainly seems to me that it is unlikely the connection could be to anyone else, but I am happy to delete it until more scholarship on her is done. SusunW (talk) 15:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right. The 1888–1970 Maria Elena is definitely the daughter of Pedro and Dolores and the wife of Luis and the mother of Mario, Raul and Alberto, but is she the feminist? Jane Addams must have visited the feminist in Mexico in 1925, see [8]. Everything I see is just "Miss Landazuri" and if Miss Landazuri has a family, she is never mentioned. But I can't read the handwritten letters from March 1925. —Kusma (talk) 21:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See identity section below. Older sister María is the mother of Mario, Raul and Alberto and wife of Luis. Our María Elena appears to never have married. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Career: The press frequently referred to Landázuri as the "Jane Addams of Mexico". back in 1921 or later in her life?
I cannot access press archives in Mexico. The only archive is in DF (Mexico City) and not digitized. The sources that state that come from 1924, 1982, and 2006. That said, it seems likely that qualifying it as "at the time" would be appropriate, because after Addams died, no one knew who she was, so equating Landázuri to her wouldn't have meant anything to anyone until the drive for women's history to be recovered began in the 1970s. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few digitized newspapers at https://gpa.eastview.com/crl/irmn and I found a few snippets about "senorita Landazuri" (surprising because it seems she was married before 1917) but most is about her playing and teaching piano. —Kusma (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a fascinating site! Thank you. Interestingly, I found a couple of articles listing her as a professor in 1917 at a new conservatory. One from the year before clearly shows the piano professor was María Elena Landázuri. I've added and appreciate your finding this, particularly article which gives proof of her full name. SusunW (talk) 16:08, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Introduce Mary McDowell and Grace Abbott (just "social workers" or "social reformers" would probably do the trick).
The following year, the Pan-American Conference of Women was held in Mexico City and organized by Elena Torres and Landázuri. They hosted the some hundred delegates for ten days, presenting lectures I think you can present this better. How about "The following year, feminist activist Elena Torres and Landazuri organiszed the PACW, which was held in Mexico City. About a hundred delegates participated in activities including lectures, ..." ?
in order to cultivate a sense of the world community I don't understand what a sense of the world community is.
From the beginning (1848), women's rights activists typically were internationalists, because they recognized that women were second class citizens everywhere. Many of the first generation of women's activists came out of the abolitionist movement (by definition international because of colonizers vs. colonized), and its ideas about the equality of men. Women just extended that to people and in 1882 began organizing the International Council of Women. Since women lost their nationality upon marriage, it was a focus to ensure that protections gained in one jurisdiction weren't lost if one's nationality was "stolen". I've linked internationalism, does that work? SusunW (talk) 17:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am generally a bit surprised to see Landazuri's rapid rise in the feminist community. She first volunteers at a Chicago house for immigrants, then suddenly leads international conferences.
See above comment about the international focus. It was a huge deal for American feminists to recruit and support feminist actions in Latin America in the 1920s. They saw it as a means to promote world peace and coordinate women's rights internationally. But it was difficult because while women were trying to build connections, politicians were scheming and creating distrust and fears of interventionism. (The US, along with colonizers like Britain, Spain, the Netherlands, France, etc. have a long history of meddling in the affairs of Latin America). The founding of the Inter-American Commission of Women in 1928, was a culmination of years of work promoting cooperation. Before that the International Council of Women sent delegates to countries in Latin America to help them organize women's organizations, and typically the people who were chosen as leaders were those who could speak English, i.e. like Landázuri. SusunW (talk) 17:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Smith decided that Landázuri should become the first executive of the YWCA and delayed its founding until she had returned to Mexico. the "she" is slightly ambiguous here; also, do we know why Smith chose Landazuri?
Clarified that it was Landázuri who returned. Likely because Smith's goal was to find a native director and it was highly probable that they were looking for someone who could speak English, since it was the US YWCA that was the parent organization. Nothing specifically says, but 1) Landázuri was a protestant, in a predominantly Catholic country, and originally the organization was aligned with protestant missionizing; 2) Landázuri participated in YWCA events in the US from 1919, so was familiar with the organization; 3) Smith had become friends with Landázuri who she lived with and who took her to various events over the summer of 1922; 4) Landázuri was familiar with the culture and could assist them in introducing social programs, like birth control, in a way that would not offend the Catholic majority. SusunW (talk) 17:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
to teach impressionable youth the values of good citizenship this sounds a bit like they ran an indoctrination program. A sufficiently bad government could use "good citizenship" as a euphemism for almost anything.
Aren't all organizations and structures like that? ("To join us is to believe as we do" has prevented me from being much of a joiner my entire life.) Per the source, "She then described the strength of the YWCA [girls' club] program: training for citizenship, a commitment to moral and idealistic values that would not violate the government prohibitions against proselytizing". (pp 110-111) I'm not against rewording it, but not sure exactly how, because citizenship in and of itself implies a common understanding, thus an indoctrination, of rights, duties, and responsibilities. Maybe I am making this too hard? Perhaps just the responsibilities of citizenship? 17:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
Music: the score was composed by Rafael J. Tello, one of the most noted Mexican musicians of the era. Odd that he doesn't have an article in English or Spanish. Link using {{ill}} to at least the version in Catalan ca:Rafael J. Tello?
making Landázuri Mexico's first known librettist Not sure this is true. What about es:José Tomás de Cuéllar, who wrote the libretto for Guatimotzin? Negrete says "libretista", which looks like "female librettist", not "librettist of whatever gender" to me, but I don't really read Spanish.
You are correct. Fixed in both the lede and body. SusunW (talk) 17:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the 1930s while working in San Antonio, Texas The split of the "Career" section into three parts makes it a bit difficult to follow her life chronologically. Would it work to have a short intro to the "Career" section that just says she moved around a lot and when she lived where?
I cannot tell you how many times I have been asked in reviews to change a woman's trajectory from chronological organization to sections on activities. For the most part, as far as I can tell, she lived in Mexico from 1924 and took sabbaticals to the US to engage in conferences and research. Nothing specifically says that, but it's the overall sense that I get. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Social work: During José Vasconcelos's tenure as Secretary of Public Education, when was that?
The first international gathering of teachers and educational administrators really? I haven't really found an earlier example (International Moral Education Congress is probably not quite in this category) but I would expect something earlier in Europe. The source calls it the first "world gathering" (I take this to mean it included Americans and Europeans at least) which sounds a bit more likely.
I changed it to global. (I wouldn't think of a regional conference in Europe as international per se. To me the term implies incorporating the views of all nations/regions. Even if one is crossing borders, regional perspective is not as broad as a truly international one.) SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am now truly confused when she was where. She seems to be moving between the US and Mexico every other year.
The border has always been more fluid than people like to admit, but as I said above, she doesn't appear to be "living" in the US after 1924. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
the Redfields again enlisted Landázuri's help, even living with her for part of 1927 where did they live?
They lived in Boulder, Colorado until 1926, them moved to Tepoztlán, Mexico and in February 1927 because of unrest three moved in with Landázuri in Mexico City. I've added "in Mexico City" because I think that is what you want to know? SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Landázuri worked as a researcher for the Rockefeller Foundation in the 1930s. did she quit her job at the health service after just one year or was this on top of that?
The Rockefeller Foundation provides research fellowships. It seemed likely to me she just went to San Antonio to conduct the research portion and wrote it in Mexico. Do I have a source that says that? No. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The book gave basic information on the pre- and post-conquest of Mexico, national heroes, and culture. pre- and post-conquest what? Who was the target audience? Was the book a success?
"pre- and post-conquest what?" – Mexico before colonization and after colonization are typically referred to as pre-conquest and post-conquest, i.e. Indigenous history vs. European history wherein native people were completely ignored. From the title we can ascertain that it was for children and The New York Times confirms that in its review (which I cannot access from here). Let me see if I can find a way. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I got it and added review info. SusunW (talk) 19:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Payment was based on the parents' ability to pay Would be easier to parse with "the fee for treatments" or similar in place of "payment".
Used fees for service SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any evidence that the librarian Miss Elena Landazuri is the same person as the subject of the article? It is a bit strange that the author of the 1944 article would not mention any of Landazuri's interesting past.—Kusma (talk) 11:22, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Landázuri is not a common name, and only 583 people in Mexico presently have the surname. The odds of there being two different Elena Landázuris that the people analyzing the sources have confused seems unlikely, but anything is possible. It did not seem strange to me that her history wasn't mentioned, at all. Women weren't supposed to work; they were supposed to be wives and mothers and stay home in the domestic sphere. But the more I work on this, the more confused I get. My brain is literally reeling. I'm happy to delete it if you think that it should go.SusunW (talk) 17:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No need to rush to delete. I am a bit torn between the crazy "two Elenas who were mixed up by researchers" theory and the crazy "one Elena who was a Protestant Christian who pretended not to be married" theory myself. Sent you an email with two sources where Elena mentions her father's connection to gold mines. —Kusma (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Spanish one seems to me to indicate he was from Chile, even though it calls her a "Mexican professor". It says from the early 1800s ships from Valparaíso began to visit Acapulco and from 1850 because of the California Gold Rush, Acapulco became a regular stop for Chilean captains traveling between Valparaíso and California, and "her father" was one of the initiators of this activity. "She presumed he learned these songs [[[Chilena (musical genre)|chilenas]]] in Chile". The English source isn't as suggestive, just says "...Elena Landázuri, a respected Mexican researcher and early feminist indigenista whose father was involved in bringing miners from Valparaiso to Acapulco and California. By her account, he often sang many songs that he learned in Chile that she later recognized as chilenas." That gave me an idea and I'll do some research and show it at the bottom. So we don't have to hunt among these comments. SusunW (talk) 15:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Death and legacy: we haven't heard of her husband in a while; did he have anything to do with her post 1916?
I know nothing about him and couldn't find anything except that they were still married when he died in 1962. I found it very ironic. Usually biographies of men completely leave out their wives and children and hers omits him and their children. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
whose work discovered Landázuri as the first Mexican librettist work usually does not discover things, people do.
first female librettist again
already changed. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is it worth mentioning her translation of Collins' book on Kierkegaard somewhere in the main text? If only just to make it explicit that she was indeed using both English and Spanish?
I am not sure what I could say about it. Every source that I find that mentions it (and there are a lot) simply shows her as translator. Have yet to find anything that mentions its impact, but the fact that many, many, many Spanish discussions about Kierkegaard mention her translation, it seems logical it was impactful. Can I prove it? No. SusunW (talk) 19:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First pass done! —Kusma (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am wondering whether there is some part of her life missing, with the 1958 translation that isn't mentioned in the body.
I agree there are large parts of her life that are missing/not yet recovered. When one considers that women's inclusion in the historical record only began officially in the 1970s when women's studies were organized, that doesn't seem unusual to me. SusunW (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think what you have now is reasonably broad. —Kusma (talk) 21:35, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some prose / clarity issues above. No MOS problems.
All seem fixed. —Kusma (talk) 21:35, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources, nicely formatted. The only issue is perhaps that the children (which don't seem to impact the rest of the life at all) are sourced only to their birth and death records; it would be very much preferable to have secondary sources that at least mention their existence.
Had there been any, I would have used them. Just tried again, but I find nothing that includes a discussion of her husband or children. SusunW (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And we've figured this out now, so I think we don't have any questionable OR any more. —Kusma (talk) 21:35, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Searching Google Books for ""Landázuri Gil" [10] I get "Boletín médico del Hospital Infantil de México - Volume 25 - Page 247" and "Boletín médico - Volume 12 - Page 257" which may or may not contain information about Hospital Elena. —Kusma (talk) 20:46, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot even see a snippet of these to request from the RX. SusunW (talk) 17:25, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see a snippet either. The page number I get from Google is all I have (but that should be enough for RX to find something). I was hoping you might find this in a local library (it is a Mexican journal after all), but UNEX catalogue only shows the online versions (post 2004) and I couldn't quickly find the catalogues of other bibliotecas. —Kusma (talk) 21:04, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll comment on other things later. Trying to look at the sources in Estudillo Garcia, I found this (1922 not 1932, typo in Estudillo Garcia): [11]. —Kusma (talk) 15:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
She also gave a talk in Spain, probably in Ateneo de Madrid in 1922: [12][13]. Here she is "señora", fwiw. —Kusma (talk) 20:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article doesn't have much more information than the analysis below, but the book, says the talk in Spain was to promote the WILPF and talks about her work at Hull House. SusunW (talk) 16:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few more articles from Spanish newspapers about this event, the most interesting is this interview (with photograph of señorita Landazuri, "una bella embajadora": [14]. There's also a petition to the king, I think. —Kusma (talk) 21:01, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Haven't actually read it yet, but, that photograph I've seen before. You posted it above from the Jane Addams papers. So, what we now know is that it was published in 1922. The photograph I used in the article dates from 1924, and was from an article about the YWCA. To me, they don't look like the same woman, but we know the feminist went to the Y. Urg! SusunW (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Having read the article with the photo, we know this is the feminist, that she says she was born in Mexico and is a pacifist and part of the International Council of Women. SusunW (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All the discussion above about Chile, and then the trips to Spain made me wonder if anything in transit papers would help clarify if there are two different women or just one. There are many, many entries stretching from 1915-1939. This one from 1935 shows that Elena Landázuri-Gil (born 1888-1889) was a music teacher, is single, her brother was Raúl, that she had previously visited the US in 1924 and 1926, and that her destination is to visit Irmagarde Richards (with whom she wrote that book). She had also gone to see Richards in 1934, (so why wasn't that date listed?) This one is really, really hard to read, but it basically contains the same information as the previous one I posted. What is interesting about these is that in the marital status on both they say single, as opposed to the other choices, married, widowed, divorced, seeming to indicate she had never been married. Except that we absolutely know that the daughter of Dolores Gil and Pedro Landázuri and half-sister of Raúl, married and had children. So are we back to she led a double life? None of the other entry records give contacts, only destinations, NYC and Chicago, and all of them indicate the same birth of 1888-1889. So then I thought, okay, one more shot, (literally my brain went to the Planta sisters Anna, Elizabeth, Anna Elizabeth) I researched María and voilà! María Elena had an older sister, also named María, who was born in 1885. SusunW (talk) 17:25, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma As my husband just said when I whooped, you can't make this stuff up. LOL So, I find zero transits to the US or anywhere else for María and am now convinced the musician and the feminist were one and the same. Her older sister would then be the mother of the engineers. Your thoughts? And should we mention the nephews as redlinks in her legacy section? SusunW (talk) 17:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is brilliant! Maria Elena has an older sister Maria, who married and is not the single Elena we are looking for. This resolves everything, and the secondary sources are not wrong. (The hospital fits with "Miss" and her being described as a "retired federal employee" in the death certificate, as it is a federal hospital). I would still suggest not to mention the nephews, as we don't know anything about the family circumstances so it is possible they never even talked to their aunt. —Kusma (talk) 20:35, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in all honesty if you hadn't asked me to help you on those Planta sisters who all had the same name, it probably would never have occurred to me that there would have been a sister with the same name, but yes, I was so happy to figure it out. It truly takes a village to write articles. SusunW (talk) 21:14, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is always fun to do proper fact checking, and I am happy my instincts were right here to query the husband who was never mentioned in other sources. For siblings with the same name, I think the worst offender is George Edward Foreman, though, whose five sons are all named George Edward Foreman. —Kusma (talk) 21:25, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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