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Date of Birth

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It looks like we have a starting edit-war over his date of birth, and since Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia, I did some research on his date of birth. And the sources I've found doesn't seem to agree either.

The following have 3 July 1991: playerhistory.com, goal.com

The following have 7 May 1991: transfermarkt.co.uk, soccerway.com, whoscored.com

There might be some reliable pages that I haven't checked, but for me the question is; which is more reliable? I also tried to find some Norwegian sources, which I believe is more reliable in this case, but I couldn't find any.Mentoz86 (talk) 16:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to search for some sources, hopefully this will help in avoiding an edit war and in affirming consensus. I would question the reliability of Playerhistory and Transmfermarkt on the grounds of them being user-generated, and I can't say I've ever come across WhoScored before so I can't really comment on it. As far as I'm aware Goal.com and Soccerway are considered to be reliable. So, that doesn't really narrow it down that much. It would be helpful if the Sheffield United website listed his DoB; perhaps someone could e-mail them requesting the publishing of this info? Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It would have been better if you didn't just change info on the article based on very vague sources and queried it instead. His DOB is published in every programme since he signed for United. Also - I asked him: [1] - although it looks like he's now changed it himself. You also added in other inaccurate information based on vague web articles - he has never played for United's youth team, he was signed as a first team player - and removed other prose from the article, ie that he'd gone on loan to get first team experience which is exactly what he's done. You may not have liked some of my formatting but it would have been better to engage. Bladeboy1889 (talk) 21:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure it's necessary for every potentially-controversial change to every article to be given other editors' seal of approval, as seems to be your thinking. When a disagreement occurs, like here, it can be discussed on the TP, user talk pages etc and dealt with, as is happening here. Since it's no longer cited in the article it's not so important, but I'm confused over what is "very vague" about Soccerway as a source; perhaps you haven't come across it before but it is held in good regard at WP:FOOTY as a WP:RS (although it seems to have made a cock-up here). As you state here the player's DoB has been published in a number of matchday programmes; one of these should have been cited in the first place, rather than it being left unreferenced and then rebuking someone who adds a citation. There's no obvious ref format for a matchday programme but whenever I cite one I use the following format: <ref>Template F.C. programme, v. Template 2 F.C., 17 February 2012, p. 1.</ref> Thanks to your intuition we now know from the man himself what the correct DoB is, so I've added Goal.com as a WP:RS to reflect this (see WP:V - "verifiability, not truth"). Apologies regarding the youth team bit, I misinterpreted what was meant by development squad (what exactly is that BTW, I don't think I've ever come across that term before?)
The reason I removed other prose from the article is because it was unreferenced. None of the citations mentioned that he'd gone on loan to get first team experience. I know it's pretty bleeding obvious that that's why, but this is a WP:BLP and this sort of thing ought to be cited. Although, I see you've removed the statement of "on 30 August with a strike from outside the penalty area", despite this being cited by BBC Sport. And I know it's a minor point but Wiktionary encourages the use of "debut" over "début", listing the latter as an alternative to the former.
Hopefully this has now been put to bed, and I hope our disagreements do not act as a barrier between us as good-faith actors in the future. Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 06:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No - let's move on as I really don't want to get into a pointless argument. Just to explain some of my views on stuff though - yep I'll admit I don't slavishly follow MOS for everything because people can get too hung up on stuff instead of making articles factually correct but more importantly readable and concise. I don't understand why citations for things like people's names and birthdates are that important - and todays featured article Abbas Kiarostami doesn't do it so it obviously isn't deemed critical for FA status - so I don't spend time citing them, they're just facts that have been curated. A lot of faith put in certain sources that are often full of inaccuracies (soccerbase is deemed highly regarded but much of their biographical and team info is incorrect - they're still listing players at United that left ages ago and I think most of their biographical data is just copied from wikipedia). In terms of the prose - to my mind the article is generally pretty clunky. I think a biographical article should be concise and have a proper narrative structure and context - that may not be written in stone in any MOS but I've always assumed it's in the spirit of Wikipedia. Too many player biographies consist of 'on day x it was announced club x were interested in signing him. On day y he held talks with that club. On day z it was announced he'd signed. On day xz he made his debut. On day xz he scored his first goal.' All factually correct but dreadful copy as it's just a list of dates that reads badly. I also don't think spelling out the JPT in that way is necessary - I don't know any person or commentator or media outlet that calls it anything other than the JPT apart from in stat data so for a average reader it's not using generally recognised naming. Details about him having a headed goal - I'd assumed that sort of info wasn't deemed particularly notable and proliferation of that sort of stuff makes articles unbalanced and overlong. As for him getting first team experience - Danny Wilson has repeated said in interviews that's why squad players would be loaned out and including that gives context to the loan (ie he's not out of favour or coming back from injury etc). Our development squad is what they sometimes call the reserves - as it's mainly full of young players. The youth team is the academy. Bladeboy1889 (talk) 09:39, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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