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Talk:Feliks Kołyszko

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Requested move 27 June 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 06:59, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Feliksas Kolyška → Feliks Kołyszko – Similar situation to Talk:Romuald Giedroyć#Requested move 5 April 2022, Polish-Lithuanian figure of January Uprising, from the Polish-speaking family. His grave in Mentona has that name Marcelus (talk) 14:00, 27 June 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcelus Can you link to the photo of that grave? It'd be a helpful piece of evidence. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:46, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus I don't have a picture, inscription is cited in the book of Iwona Dacka-Górzyńska and Sławomir Górzyński, that you can find in bibliography Marcelus (talk) 10:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus and @Piotrus here is the link to his grave you are looking for. Description above the photo says KOŁYSZKO Feliks. The grave’s text on the photo itself is hardly visible but 8 letters of the last names are noted, that indicates that indeed it says Kołyszko (8 letters) versus Kolyška (7 letters). If you reach the consensus of moving it to his Polish spelling name please make sure that the Lithuanian version of the spelling is also properly maintained right after the Polish one.- GizzyCatBella🍁 13:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The language he or his family / collegues chose for his tombstone is a strong indicator of how he'd prefer to be called. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:04, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. His authentic name, Kolyška, is mentioned in a local folk song. His whole life was tied to ethnographic Lithuania and he fought within ethnically Lithuanian lands, with most of the rebels coming from there, just like him, so he clearly was in touch with the Lithuanian language. In addition, WP:UE: If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on). So, the Lithuanian-language name is preferable instead of the Polish one. Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:21, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
    ''If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on). of course, but I don't know why you assume that Lithuanian is appropiate language for people of Polish-Lithuanian descent~, especially for commanders of January Uprising. Marcelus (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The person's whole life was tied to ethnographic Lithuania and his units were, inevitably, composed mostly of Lithuanians. Contemporary Polish-language sources are useless in determining a person's real name, especially that of a Lithuanian, because Poles would have necessarily Polonized his name for it to fit into their language, ergo, Polish sources give no justification for presuming that his real name was Polish.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:00, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is relevant, because it shows that his Lithuanian-language name is not out of the blue. As regarding tombstones, they are not definitive, because many Lithuanians are buried under Polonized names. That is unsurprising, considering how widespread Polonization was, and the fact of too many to count cases where even the same Lithuanian person is named in two different Polonized ways.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis Has been Kolyška or Kołyszko Polonized? - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just like other Lithuanian names of the period, it is reasonable to presume that Kołyszko is a Polonized version of Kolyška.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:11, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis - I want to know if him, Kolyška or Kołyszko was Polonized himself, not his name - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:17, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella Of course he was, he was using alias "Śmiałyński" during the Uprising Marcelus (talk) 15:34, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is doubtful that Kolyška was Polonized (i.e. turned his back on Lithuanian culture & language in favour of Polish), especially considering that he fought in ethnically Lithuanian lands with his soldiers from among the local Lithuanians, so he almost certainly must have known Lithuanian. In addition, he was fondly remembered in their local folk song, so there clearly was a connection between him and the Lithuanians. Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a results of polonization, but of uncodified orthography, most names if not all of them had more than one version. What's more people themsleves were using several versions of their name and didn't see anything wrong about that. It doesn't apply only to Polish-Lithuanian figures, or Polish as such, it also applies to other nationalties, even Lithuanians were using several Lithuanian versions of their name. Marcelus (talk) 13:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Polonization cannot be written off due to "uncodified orthography". Even if orthography was uncodified back then, the following examples demonstrate that Polonization cannot be written off as such:
On 15 October 1758 in Utena's church (this church: Utenos Kristaus Žengimo į dangų bažnyčia [lt]), Kotryna Miliutė was baptized, the daughter of Jurgis Milius and Sofija (mother's name is not recorded), born in Miliūnai [lt], while her brother Vincas is written with the Polish translation surname of Kochański on 6 July 1777. Apparently, the metrica writer believed that Milius' surname came from the word mylėti ("to love"), in Polish - kochac! [1]
On 3 February 1670, Darata Sargevičaitė was baptized, daughter of Andrius Sargevičius and Kotryna, and her brother Adomas on 5 March 1672 was written in the real surname of Sargūnas. (ibid)
What's more people themsleves were using several versions of their name and didn't see anything wrong about that This raises more questions than it answers. How would one proceed in such a situation?--Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:09, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really know what point you are trying to make, if someone was using surname Kochański, then that's his surname, people when adopting Polish culture where polonising their names. You clearly see this as some "historical mistake", maybe it is, but Wikipedia isn't to "correct" such mistake. Feliks Kołyszko was using that name in Lithuania, in France, in Poland. That's all Marcelus (talk) 19:30, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But he wasn't using Kochański as surname, his family was that of Milius. It is illogical that a person within a single family, with the same parents, would have a radically different surname from the rest, especially at the moment of baptism. Clearly, a person is not capable of choosing what culture he should belong to right after birth. Those people did not adopt Polish culture and were not Polonized themselves (Polonization of Lithuanian peasants was a phenomenon taking place mainly in the 19th century, not the 18th century), but the person who was writing down their names was Polonizing their name. The point I was making, as stated explicitly before, was that Polonization cannot be written off due to "uncodified orthography".
It is unreasonable to name participants of Uprising of 1863 in Lithuania in different languages, because a bizarre double-standard is introduced for fundamentally identical individuals, e.g. Antanas Mackevičius and Feliksas Kolyška. Both:
Due to the context of the time, the writing about them would have necessarily been mostly in Polish, which would have necessited their Lithuanian names being made to fit into the Polish language, i.e. Polonized. If Western sources knew about these people, they knew them from Polish sources, ergo Polish-language surnames. Lithuanian writing had a much lower circulation and was suffering under the Lithuanian press ban, while the Polish & Lithuanian Émigré community bound together even closer, where Polish culture dominated. It is no surprise knowing the situation that, in comparison to the Polish-language sources, there are much fewer Lithuanian written sources, which would have used their authentic Lithuanian names.
For now, it seems as if Marcelus is indirectly proposing that unless a participant of the Uprising of 1863 is demonstrably a Lithuanian proto-nationalist or something akin, as in the cases of Antanas Mackevičius, Adomas Bitė and Vincentas Šliogeris, then the Polish-language name should be used. The biggest problem with Marcelus' approach of "Name in contemporary Polish-language source → article name on Wikipedia must also be that name" is that it disregards the situation's complexities and nuances.
Such an approach is also bad because if it were followed consistently, it would lead to problematic cases of individuals like the three aforementioned having wiki articles named after them in Polish within a non-Polish-language context, all because of contemporary Polish-language sources. If an approach can't be followed consistently, it should not be followed.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My attitude is clear, if a person used a Lithuanian name, we should use it too, and if a Polish one, Wikipedia has no right to Lithuanianise it. Bitis first language was Lithuanian, so the use of a Lithuanian name seems logical. Szlagier/Šliogeris wrote in Lithuanian, so his Lithuanian name can be used. Mackiewicz's first language was Polish, he wrote down his testimony before Russian investigators in this language, he called himself "Antoni Mackiewicz", so of course the name Antoni Mackiewicz should be used.Marcelus (talk) 10:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Mackiewicz's first language was Polish No, that's outrageously false. A man who grew up deep in the Samogitian villages would have spoken Polish as his mother tongue? Nonsense.
Seemingly, there's a failure in your reply to come to terms with Polonization being forceful. Also, the presence of ignorance about the contemporary context dismantling the idea that Polish-language sources would have given the Lithuanian person's authentic name.
Is someone here giving Polish patriots from Lesser Poland or Mazovia Lithuanian names? Is someone Lithuanianizing Poles on Wikipedia? No, the reverse is true - someone seeks to give various Lithuanian patriots from Samogitia, Dzūkija and really, all of its regions, Polish names, because Polish-language sources gave them as such. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:09, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To answer all your questions: Lithuanian language wasn't present in Mazovia or Lesser Poland, while Polish language was not only present but widely spoken by nobles and townspeople all over Lithuania. By your logic Lithuanians born in Suwałki region or Eastern Prussia cannot be called by their Lithuanian names Marcelus (talk) 07:21, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By your logic Lithuanians born in Suwałki region or Eastern Prussia cannot be called by their Lithuanian names I fail to see how my reasoning would lead to that - there were the Lithuanian regions of Suvalkija and Lithuania Minor.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 10:11, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wileńszczyzna rings any bells? Lauda? Kowieńszczyzna? Żmudź? Marcelus (talk) 10:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Polish names for Lithuanian regions in ethnographic Lithuania. I'm sure Russians also have Russian names for Ukrainian regions too. Cukrakalnis (talk) 10:47, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggestion

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@GizzyCatBella, @Marcelus: GizzyCatBella had suggested as a way of resolving naming disputes by using both the Polish and Lithuanian-language names in bold, like in this edit. I think such an approach would be rather sensible in the case of a person like Feliks Kołyszko/Feliksas Kolyška, born and raised in ethnographic Lithuania, whose Lithuanian-language name was mentioned in a local Lithuanian folk song. Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:51, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ping Piotrus here as well. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:01, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis The name dispute was ended with recent request move discussion Marcelus (talk) 17:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will have to think more. The difference is miniscule. What is WP:MOS take on that? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:40, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MOS doesn’t look good, but I feel we should make an exception in this area. Would you be flexible a little Marcelus? - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a reason for that change, the Lithuanian name is already mentioned in the article. Previous discussion showed that Kołyszko was the version used by the person in question Marcelus (talk) 09:04, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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