Talk:General Government

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Article[edit]

why does this article need to continue to exist when there is a more complete version of it at History of Poland (1939-1945)?

Because General Government was a separate colony of Nazis, and as the separate entity it deserves its history.

One cannot understand history of WWII, if he doesn't realise that in GG Nazis could have done everything they wished. Nobody cared what happenned to defeated Poles, while even in Germany, Nazis had some limitations.

Of course, Nazis got more area for implementing their Anty-utopia after 1941, but still, all death camps were set-up in GG.

Those are not very good reasons. The Nazi occupation of Poland is better covered at History of Poland (1939-1945). This article should be redirected there.

AM Poland in years 1939-45 were divided into - GG - annexed territories - Soviet Zone - Lithuanian part - Slovak parts 1941 - Eastern Galicia were added to GG - Bialystok region was addded to annexed territories

I feel that in the interest of clarity, the intro needs to show how the GG was not formed from all of pre-War Poland, but only the parts that weren't outright included in the German state. As it reads now, it gives the impression that all of Poland became the GG. Bwood 05:07, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The situation of people were completely different in each of those territories. It is advised that it should be described in separate articles

I concur, GG needs its' own article since very often it is assumed that it was either a puppet-regime or even a rump polish state. This needs clarification and this page seems a good way to do it.

Halibutt 22:23, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

General Gouvernment was a very shameful part of german history. Today nobody remembers that the nazis were going to exterminate 80% of Poles (according to GENERALPLAN OST). The memory of those who were killed in GG should be kept in a separate article. GG wasn't something like Vichy State but like one big ghetto for Polish Nation! Yes it's true I added clarification on that. --Molobo 12:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be some acknowledgment at least that there was a German "General-Government" at Warsaw also from 1914/1915: "In 1914, Bismarck's legacy was completely abandoned. Chancellor Bethmann-Hollweg called for Russia to be pushed back far to the east, and for its hold over non-Russian peoples to be broken. The following summer, the armies of the Central Powers did indeed push the Russians back, and the Germans marched into Warsaw. .. Austrian military rule was established in the southern part, while the Germans set up a General Government in Warsaw." (Mazower, Hitler's Empire, p. 23 (2008)). I was hoping to find out more about that on this Wiki page but will do a JSTOR search instead... Andygx (talk) 13:24, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Grossraum and "German World Reich"[edit]

I deleted these from the History section because a) German plans for Poland went far beyond "Grossraum" and b) GG had nothing to do with a "German World Reich" and the Majer book cite had nothing to do with this either. 71.135.105.35 (talk) 07:39, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I've edited the image descriptions[edit]

I've edited some of the image descriptions because many are unclear and at least one could be seen as inflammatory. The caption: "Polish hostages preparing in Palmiry by Nazi-Germans for mass execution (see: binding eyes) Palmiry 1940" could easily lead a reader to believe that Wikipedia is saying the hostages colluded in their own murders, something unsupported by the image or by any source (and I suspect insulting to many readers). "Polish hostages preparing" means that the victims are preparing themselves; the image shows they are not. I've also edited a few words and phrases that either don't exist in English or sound almost humourously redundant ("Nazi-German" and "Nazi German SS", for instance), and corrected a few unusual word choices (when one person "keeps" another, it doesn't mean they're holding them at gunpoint - it means they're financially supporting them in exchange for sexual favours). --NellieBly (talk) 10:30, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

'Generalgouvernement' does not mean "General Government"[edit]

Aiiii! Generalgouvernement does not mean "General Government"! It is a loan word from French and means "Governate General." There is also nothing specifically German or Polish or French about the word. It just represents an administrative unit with a Governor.

Call it "Nazi-occupied Poland" or "Governate General (Nazi-occupied Poland)" or something, but for heaven's sake not "General Government"! :) -- Fullstop (talk) 03:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It was termed this way by the Germans themselves! See the accompanying German Wiki article. Farawayman (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I will clarifty the misconception[edit]

In the text. Nazis didn't want to collaborate with Poles, also they didn't want to make Poles into German citizens. They were searching for "Polonised" Germans that could be re-germanised.--Molobo (talk) 23:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

resistance section[edit]

it offers many figures and numbers but the whole section has zero refs/sources.

for example: 150,000 axis dead AK having 300000 members AL having 15% of what AK had

Where are these numbers coming from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.51.239.98 (talk) 22:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

still no sources —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.51.239.98 (talk) 08:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC) still no sources.

still no sources —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.91.233 (talk) 20:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Added on number of troops stationed[edit]

I added on number of troops stationed in the region. --Molobo (talk) 21:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Daily calories[edit]

Added on daily calories provided for people classified as untermenschen and Germans.--Molobo (talk) 14:36, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Clarify please?[edit]

"The General Government ... refers to a part of the territories of Poland under German military occupation ... and was separate part of "Greater Germany". "

Does this mean it was "a" separate part of "Greater Germany, or, was separate "from" a part of Greater Germany, or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.255.51.216 (talk) 03:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The Generalgouvernement had a legally vague status that is very difficult to describe in conventional terms. It was administratively regarded as part of the (Greater) German Reich however, just as a special region with a lot of autonomy from the central government bodies in Berlin.--Morgan Hauser (talk) 01:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

death penalty[edit]

Was there death penalty for Poles having sex with German women?--79.111.191.214 (talk) 11:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

General GovernmentGeneral Governorate — This article uses an incorrect translation of a foreign state name that has strangely persisted for very long. The German "Allgemeine Regierung" would be "General Government". Generalgouvernement actually means General Governorate in English. Morgan Hauser (talk) 02:20, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose: Although Morgan Hauser is correct that "General Government" is not a faithful translation of the German, Wikipedia policy is to use the common English name, and it appears (from searches in Google Scholar and Google Books) that the commonly used name in English-language academic writing is "General Government", not "General Governorate".

    I also disagree with the IP: although "General Government" may mean many things, I haven't seen any evidence that any "General Government" other than this one is worthy of an encyclopedic article. Ucucha 14:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose per Ucucha; I can only add that the correct response is to have a sentence (preferably citing a history of the regime rather than a dictionary) on the meaning of Gouvernement in German. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:59, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: I don't think a move is necessary, but both possible translations should be mentioned in the introductory section. 18:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)~
  • OpposeGeneral Government is the most common English name used.There are loanwords and specific phrases in English language coming from other languages-for example Kulturkampf not Cultural Fight.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:33, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ostgebiete[edit]

what about the ostgebiete? every nazi idea regarding the future of these Generalgouvernement territories later happened to the germans and what used to be east german territories. german plans for the Generalgouvernement: the annexation of the land. expulsion of the ethnic group. killing many of them in the process.

polish reality after the war: everything the nazis dreamed up was put into practice by poland and the soviet union after the war. the expulsion of literally every german from their lands. most of them as ancient german as berlin. 1 million germans died in the process. some numbers you can find are even higher. (2 million, from bund der vertriebenen) and the annexation of 1/3 of germanys landmass by poland during the cold war. german cities got renamed in polish and even villages got new, made up names. every street got a new, made up name in polish. every trace of german history was eradicated.

seems like this should be noted in the article. it's the exact same thing and ironic on top of that. but I bet nothing will happen since this article seems to be written by poles anyway and poles don't like it when their actions are as bad and even worse than the actions of the nazis. we all know poles are never offenders and always poor victims. *irony off* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.234.132.73 (talk) 00:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Fourth Hague Convention (1907)[edit]

this sentence in the introduction is clearly wrong.

"In terms of international and civil law, all of these acts were illegal from their inception, according to section III of the Fourth Hague Convention (1907) accepted by Germany.[2]"

the section lll of the fourth Hague Convention talks about

"(III): Convention relative to the Opening of Hostilities[20] This convention sets out the accepted procedure for a state making a declaration of war."

this has clearly nothing to do with the inception concerning the international and civil law? of the Generalgouvernement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.234.132.73 (talk) 00:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Name[edit]

Why is it called General Government, and not General Governorate, which is the correct translation of the german word (Gouvernement, the german word for governorate, is rarely used in German)--Antemister (talk) 09:25, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Zamosch or Zamosc?[edit]

Xx236 (talk) 05:56, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Demographics[edit]

Galizien data are needed.Xx236 (talk) 05:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

for logistical purposes[edit]

The quoted source doesn't use the word logistical. Is it the correct summary of the page 268?Xx236 (talk) 08:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Basically, in the English language "logistical" means operational, procedural, organizational, or strategic. We can expand on that statement for clarity. Please look at page 236 in Diemut Majer. The context is self-explanatory. According to Hitler's decree of October 8, 1939 only GG was quote-unquote "occupied", because Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany were "not occupied" ... they were "German, and only German" in prewar Poland.[1] Poeticbent talk 15:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

inclusion of the regions of Poland[edit]

It's unprecise, only Eastern Galitsia was annected to GG.Xx236 (talk) 07:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician)[edit]

Galizien was organized in Distrikt Galizien.Xx236 (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland under the General Government by Martin Winstone[edit]

Xx236 (talk) 10:23, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Genocide of Poles in Introduction[edit]

"The government and administration of the General Government was composed entirely of Germans, with the intent that the area was to be colonized by German settlers who would reduce the remaining population to the level of serfs before their final genocide"

This assumes a planned "final" Polish genocide, not an eventual genocide in an attempt to blur the Polish victims under the Nazis (mind not under the Soviets) and the victims of the Holocaust. I can't verify the claims made by the source written in Polish, though whatever claims are made by the source are made in the context of difficulties in "Polish-Russian relations 1918-2008." The English source cited does not use the word genocide. The cited page number page 32 is glossed with no mention of the content following on page 33. Page 33 from the cited source: If the Jews and Gypsies were the first victims of mass murder, there IS enough evidence that many of the Slavic “sub-humans” would have suffered the same fate if Hitler had won the war. Kylecrabtree (talk)

was a territory in Poland and Ukraine[edit]

Ahistorical, there was no independent Ukraine at that time. District of Galicia was a part of Poland annected by the Soviet Union on the basis of the Soviet-Nazi agreement and erobert by the Nazis in 1941.Xx236 (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Until 1945 ?[edit]

The majority until July 1944, Kraków until January 1945, Warsaw - Praga until 1944, the rest wasn't a city, was completely destroyed and depopulated.Xx236 (talk) 06:57, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland under the General Government[edit]

http://www.hsozkult.de/publicationreview/id/rezbuecher-24802
http://www.ibtauris.com/Books/Society%20%20social%20sciences/Politics%20%20government/Political%20ideologies/Fascism%20%20Nazism/The%20Dark%20Heart%20of%20Hitlers%20Europe%20Nazi%20Rule%20in%20Poland%20Under%20the%20General%20Government.aspx?menuitem={817548B7-25EF-41FB-BE59-FC1C66CA2D57}
http://histmag.org/generalne-gubernatorstwo-wysypisko-tysiacletniej-rzeszy-11864 Xx236 (talk) 07:13, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Policing[edit]

SS and police leaders ruled the police in districts nad cities. [2]
I believe that the role of Sonderdienst is overestimated.

Xx236 (talk) 07:35, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Bahnschutzpolizei. Xx236 (talk) 07:51, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Administration[edit]

The GG was controlled not only by its government, but by SS and police (Himmler) and by some Reich administration. Hans Frank's power was limited, he had to fight.Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

pl:Żandarmeria w Generalnym Gubernatorstwie[edit]

The (German) Gendarmerie controlled villages and small towns, the Blue Police rather cities and towns.Xx236 (talk) 07:43, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

pl:Kontyngenty w okupowanej przez Niemców Polsce[edit]

Peasants delivered taxes in nature as Kontingent. Only mentioned in the text, plus a picture of a death penalty poster.
Cows and pigs were marked, unmarked animals were illegal.Xx236 (talk) 08:33, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

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Academic book about the GG[edit]

https://www.hsozkult.de/publicationreview/id/rezbuecher-24802 Xx236 (talk) 13:03, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Xx236, I will check it out, although I doubt it compares to the monumental work by Madajczyk.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:54, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

  • It's in English.
  • Madajczyk may be a little obsolete and isn't available. BTW - which Madajczyk - the German one or Polish one?Xx236 (talk) 10:43, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

UPA crimes in GG should be mentioned[edit]

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Xx236 (talk) 08:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

To be sure, UPA's campaigns were part of Ukrainian nationalists' efforts to win an independent Ukraine, but UPA had been collaborating with Germany since before World War II (e.g., see "Carpathian Sich"). So this topic probably merits inclusion here.
Nihil novi (talk) 10:24, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
The Galizien was an area dominated by Ukrainians, who later joined UPA and were sometimes replaced by Poles. This German politics desrves to be mentioned. Some Ukrainians were settled in Zamość area and attacked by Polish guerilla.Xx236 (talk) 10:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

German propaganda[edit]

  • Polish language press (gadzinowa)
  • Posters including lists of executed Poles
  • Movies [3]
An editor was earlier asking for a source for "Tylko swinie siedza w kinie" ("Only swine go to the movies") — and here is your source! Thanks.
Nihil novi (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Theaters
  • Anti-semitic propaganda
  • Loud speakers in cities Xx236 (talk) 08:51, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
All these were part of German efforts to sway and dominate the Poles, and should be given a place here.
Nihil novi (talk) 10:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was the first armed uprising against the Germans in Poland[edit]

A city uprisng - yes. But resistance in Zamość region started in 1942 and some call it an uprising.Xx236 (talk) 09:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Education system[edit]

German educational system should be described in one section, now it's mentioned at least twice.There existed school system for Germans. Underground teaching should be mentioned. Education in Poland during World War IIXx236 (talk) 11:19, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

German culture[edit]

There is a pro-Nazi text [4] which describes some aspects of German occupation.Xx236 (talk) 08:26, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Food supply[edit]

A mysterious text about Marshal Petain and Norway. To be rewritten. Xx236 (talk) 09:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The section has been written by a student. This Wikipedia isn't a sandbox.Xx236 (talk) 09:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC)