|Golf was a Sports and recreation good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.|
|Current status: Former good article nominee|
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- 1 twelfth century references to golf at st andrews
- 2 Par 7?
- 3 Recent Events
- 4 Air Horn Pranks
- 5 GA Review
- 6 Moon
- 7 History
- 8 Etymology
- 9 Vandalism
- 10 Golf - a game, not a sport
- 11 Missing information
- 12 Playing Partners
- 13 Name
- 14 Doesn't make sense
- 15 Junk history
- 16 18 holes
- 17 Dimples
- 18 Shepherds, Stones & Rabbits
- 19 "Sport" Correction
- 20 Title Picture
- 21 Scoring: add "Double Eagle" ?
- 22 Swearing
- 23 Approach?
- 24 Section 7.3 (Other Forms of Play) is redundant with a separate article on Variations of golf
- 25 PGA section
- 26 comments on the "swing mechanics" section
- 27 Paganica - Roman golf or Victorian myth?
- 28 Longest hole
- 29 Field Hockey- A major fallacy with the article.
- 30 Edit request on 25 May 2013
- 31 Par 70 or 71
- 32 How is the "cut" decided?
- 33 Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2014
- 34 Electric golf carts
- 35 Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2015
twelfth century references to golf at st andrews
The sentence "According to the most widely accepted account, however, the modern game originated in Scotland around the 12th century, with shepherds knocking stones into rabbit holes on the current site of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews." is slightly misleading. There should either be a reference to a twelfth century source (which almost certainly does not exist) or a following sentence that says "however, the earliest contemporary evidence dates from....(?18th century)". To jump back to the twelfth century is quite a leap of faith... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinigi (talk • contribs) 17:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
PGA claims par 3 through 5. I found record of a par 6 in New York, but no record of a par 7. Does such a beast actually exist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 04:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes. The Satsuki golf course in Sano, Japan, has the longest hole in the world -- a 964-yard, par-7.
Air Horn Pranks
Air Horn Pranks? Agree - No. Perhaps of more interest might be reference in popular culture movies: Caddyshack & Happy Gilmore, etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LGJ 68 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- He didn't "play golf." He only smacked the damn ball. And it wasn't a regulation course. --Michael K SmithTalk 18:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be some debate as to which club is actually the oldest golf club in the World and when golf was first played on them. I had always thought that St Andrews golf links is the oldest in the World and that is confirmed in the Golf Monthly book by Beacon Books The Best Links of Britain and Ireland. It states that the oldest club in the World is at St Andrews "The reason is simple enough. St Andrews is the mother of all Golf Courses It is the oldest links in the World - golf was being played there long before Christopher Columbus discovered America" The book also goes on to say that the 3rd oldest club is Dornoch, 5th is Montrose, 6th is Royal Aberdeen and 7th is Crail. Looking on the internet I came across a web reference from Scottish Golf History who list the age of golf sites as follows Perth 1512, Carnoustie 1527, Montrose 1562, Musselburgh 1567, St Andrews 1574, Dornoch 1619 and Leith 1619. The web entry for Museelburgh golf club extends the debate further is it claims to be the oldest golf club in the world with golf being played there 10 years before St Andres. What appears to be missing from the Golf Monthly entry in the Best Links of Britain and Ireland is the entry of which are the 2nd and 4th oldest golf clubs in the World. - WillardWhite
- Records are sketchy at best from the early days of golf, so it depends on how what evidence is considered reliable an acceptable. Musselburgh is generally recognised as the oldest links,. As for golf clubs (institutions), variations in the definition of what constitutes a club allow many clubs lay claim to the title as the worlds oldest. wjematherbigissue 15:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
- Just to clarify the above comment, it is important to distinguish between a golf course (or links) and a golf club. The two were (and still are in many cases in Scotland) distinct. A golf course is an area of land where golf is played. A golf club is an organisation that arranges competitions for its members. For example, the links at St Andrews are owned by a public body, the Links Trust, in sucession to the Town Council that was abolished in the early 70's. The Links are effectively municipal, public golf courses. There are a number of seperate golf clubs, some with their own clubhouses, that play competitions on the links, including but not only the Royal & Ancient. Similar arrangements can be found in other parts of Scotland.WhaleyTim (talk) 08:56, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
- Further, the existence of golf courses is mentioned in historical records before the existence of golf clubs. By their nature of being private, and perhaps informal and transient organisations there may have been many early clubs for which there is just no historical record. WhaleyTim (talk) 09:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Why the reference to the first 18 hole course in america? if this was the first 18 hole course in the world, it should be described as such and the reference should remain. if it was only the first 18 hole course in america, shouldn't we refer to the first one in the world? (I think most 18 hole courses were from the old course, but i wouldn't want to guarantee someone else built one first —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 20:16, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Just to point out (don't think it's mentioned anywhere else) that golf has the same etymology as club, a word with which it is so closely associated (Old High German kolb). The only other example of this I can think of is beef cow (from Indo-European variants bwous and ghwous). Nuttyskin (talk) 14:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Most of the editing in this article is either vandalism or deletion of vandalism. It seems to me that semi-protection of this page to allow only registered users to edit would serve this article well. My fellow editors, please weigh in with your thoughts, and/or suggestions. Eaglebreath (talk) 22:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I tried to get indefinite semi-protection based on suggestions by good article nominee reviewer User:Mobile Snail but it was not given because "there wasn't enough recent vandalism" to get it. If we could get it next time that would be great.username 1 (talk) 14:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Golf - a game, not a sport
First things first. I notice that the article classes golf as a sport rather than as a game. It is undoubtedly true that most practitioners of golf feel very strongly that golf should be classed as a sport rather than as a game, particularly because this classification seems to positively affect the way they like to view themselves in relation to practitioners of (other??) sports, but also because they feel its status and intrinsic worth as a pursuit would be somehow diminished if it were classed as a game instead.
However, assuming golf is not classed as a sport simply on the basis that its status or that of its practitioners might for some unwarranted reason be lowered if classed as a game instead, I am not sure on what basis it is classed as a sport in the first place. Most people would consider golf to be closer to, for example, darts, snooker or bowling (which most people would class as games) than to, for example, lacrosse, hockey or table-tennis(which most people would class as sports).
Ideally, of course, golf should be classed correctly, for the sake of accuracy, as a game, but given the fact that practitioners of golf are over-sensitive over its classification, I suggest that, at least, a paragraph be included in the article mentioning the aforementioned controversy relating to its classification.
- First things first. Please supply a good reliable cite that discusses this "controversy". Otherwise we have no evidence it exists. Please also provide some cites that back up your definitions and examples of what defines a "sport" distinct from a "game" and what "most people" think. You'll also need to show an authoritative source that says the accurate and correct classification for golf is a game.
- Once that is all established we can consider how it can be reflected in the article. Thanks. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 17:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Here you go: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/505429.html - link for the controversy and link showing that most people considered golf to be a game, not a sport.
"Using a popular comparison site* of google results, the term "game of golf" had 315,000 results vs. "sport of golf" at 18,900 results. Doing a search on "golf is a game" had more results (20,700) compared to "golf is a sport" at (5,570) results. [ http://googlefight.com/ ] [* not to be considered definitive since many things can contribute to results generated and the results number presented with a search is a "general sum"]
And finally as a more definitive means of determining the most common use, I did a search on google news for relevant, current news, the terms, golf and game returned [ http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=golf+game ] 13,200 results compared to 3,610 for golf [ http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=golf+sport ] and sport. More defining is the fact that when searching for golf and sport, the search terms were not associated in the text, whereas the search for golf and game, returned a large amount of results where golf was actually referred to as a game.
I think definitively this shows that the general public would consider golf a game as well. Generally speaking."
Here's another link stating there is no consensus whether it is a sport or a game and that the answer is likely to depend on whether one is objective or not: http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-amp-gaming/article/2009-01/golf-sport
Finally, here is a link to hundreds of links of debates whether golf is a game or a sport: http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GPEA_enGB315GB315&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=is+golf+a+game+or+a+sport%3F
As to the definitions, here are some:
Sport: an active diversion requiring physical exertion and competition.
Game: a contest with rules to determine a winner.
Now, take biathlon, the winter sport that combines cross-country skiing and rifle shooting. It is not a game; it is a sport. If biathlon involved rifle shooting and a leisurely ski to the next range, it would be a game. Similarly, if golf involved a race against time, it would be a sport.
Here is what, for example, golf would have to be like to be a sport, rather than a game:
...Each competitor is timed as he or she makes their way around the course. Every time they go one over par on a hole, five minutes is added to their time. The competitor who has finished the course fastest wins.
Alternatively: ...Every time a competitor goes one over par on a hole, they have to do a penalty lap dragging their golf-buggy behind them. If they go one under par on a hole, they do not get penalised if they go one over par on another hole. The competitor who finishes the course first wins.
In both of these examples, physical exertion would play a critical role, unlike it does at present in golf. Therefore, golf is currently not a sport. It is a game.
Now, could you please show some objectivity and act in good faith? Thank you.
- You could do the exactly same google analysis with football (any variety) and produce entirely similar bogus results. Golf is internationally recognised as a sport. We do not need to discuss this any further. wjematherbigissue 19:27, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
No, you couldn't do the same analysis with football. For football to be a game, rather than a sport, it would have to exclusively involve, for example, taking kicks at an unguarded goal from a stationary position, with no time pressure. Sounds a bit like golf, doesn't it?
Here is the results page for the question: "is football a sport or a game?"
Compare it to the results page for the question: "is golf a sport or a game?"
There is no controversy whatsoever whether football is a sport or a game. There is however a huge controversy when it comes to golf. Just because you don't like the look of the big white elephant in the room doesn't mean he's not there. Please read the Wiki editorial standards - you have to be objective and neutral, not biased and subjective!
You are right, we do not need to discuss this further. A section should be included in the main article noting the controversy as to its status. Ideally, of course, for the sake of accuracy, the status of golf should be changed in the article to that of a game.
- There is no need for a section on a non-controversy which is perennially brought up by people who hate golf. I recommend you further investigate what constitutes a sport, and check out the archives of this talk page, before commenting further. wjematherbigissue 20:03, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- All the above googling is original research. Please read this link and it will explain. Original research is not permissible on Wikipedia. Also a link to a forum post is not a reliable source and may not be used to cite anything on Wikipedia. I refer you to my above answer; please produce cites from reliable sources that discuss the "controversy" regarding over whether golf is a game or a sport. That does not mean googling result counts and constructing evidence or a case of a controversy yourself. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Anyone interested in re-hashing this tired, old topic should check out the archives, and everyone using this discussion page should identify themselves by signing their posts.Eaglebreath (talk) 22:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Slicing on the golf course is frustrating, embarrassing, and typically uncontrollable. You stand there helplessly as you watch your ball make its way toward to rough and you know that you will be lucky to find it again.
Slicing the golf ball is the most common golfing ailment there is, and plenty of people who have wandered the golf course before you feel your pain. Slicing occurs when the body is improperly aligned with itself and the golf ball. Because both factors have to be fixed in order to improve the slice, it can be a very frustrating time in a golfer’s life. GolfBallPutter (talk) 22:57, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
- Except none of you is differentiating between hooks and slices. My back yard overlooks the 10th fairway and I get a fair number of balls hooked into my flower beds -- but no slices. For that to happen, the golfers would have to be playing contraflow. --Michael K SmithTalk 19:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
- See Glossary of golf for definition of 'Slice' and many other golfing terms.WhaleyTim (talk) 09:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
12 players are going on tour with 5 rounds of golf, and we want to ensure everyone has a chance of playing against each other. Do you know of a web site that can sort out the numbers and makle sure no one plays with each other more than twice?
- See Etymology section in the History article. I don't see much controversy though. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 10:55, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't make sense
"Another early game that resembled modern golf was known as cambuca in England and chambot in France. This game was, in turn, exported to the Low Countries, Germany, and England (where it was called pall-mall, pronounced “pell mell”)." --> "Another early game that resembled modern golf was known as cambuca in England. This game was exported to England (where it was called pall-mall)." Eh? I'm not sure what this should say, could someone who does address it please? Stutley (talk) 08:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The Roman, Persian and Chinese stuff is clearly irrelevant and should be removed. "Vaguely similar" is not the same as "ancestral". If there is a historical link, it should be backed up by evidence. Grendlegrutch (talk) 19:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Their claims as possible forerunners of the sport are cited properly as far as I can see. wjematherbigissue 19:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- The Chinese claim certainly isn't junk - I wish I could find a copy of the picture. There is no reason to delete any of these references. Unless you can irrefutably prove that these claims are junk then they should stay.Philg88 (talk) 06:31, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
The dimples INCREASE the turbulence around the ball NOT decrease it. An increase in the turbulence in the boundary layer around the ball will cause the flow to better overcome adverse pressure gradients and be less subjected to boundary layer separation. Because the separation point is pushed further back there will be less pressure differential drag resulting in less negative acceleration and longer flight trajectories. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carl489585 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Shepherds, Stones & Rabbits
The theory that "the modern game originated in Scotland around the 12th century, with shepherds knocking stones into rabbit holes" as noted in the article is widespread and has a certain appeal. Are there any good historical sources for this or is it just a popular myth? One issue I have with this is the question of the Rabbits. To quote http://www.snh.org.uk/publications/on-line/advisorynotes/31/31.htm
- "Rabbits were introduced to Britain by the Normans, around the 12th or 13th century. At that stage they were not technically wild but were initially confined to managed warrens, primarily on islands and in coastal areas. The trade in rabbit meat was well established by the 14th century and reached its peak around 1800 (Sheail 1971). However, the economic value of the species had declined by the mid-19th century, and measures were begun to control rabbits to reduce agricultural damage. Rabbits were widespread in Britain by the 16th century although their spread in Scotland was more gradual. While apparently abundant around Edinburgh at this time, they were otherwise primarily restricted to a few islands and coastal habitats, where they often constituted the main source of income. They were rarely recorded north of the Tay and Clyde valleys. The spread of rabbits throughout Scotland is largely attributed to introductions throughout the Highlands in the 18th and 19th centuries, aided by improved agricultural practices."
Now perhaps the St Andrews links (for example) was one of the early managed coastal warrens. However to quote http://www.scottishgolfhistory.net/st_andrews_oldest_golf_course.htm
- "In 1552, Archbishop John Hamilton of St Andrews was given a charter to establish a rabbit warren on the links".
This, of course may have been the formalisation of a pre-existing situation and does not preclude a prior rabbit population, but it does make me wonder if there is any real evidence for 12th century rabbit holes.
Secondly, of course, it seems widely accepted that the earliest historical reference to golf is James II ban of 1457. Again, this does not mean that the playful shepherds were not golfing in the C12, but does seem to imply that there is no historical evidence for their frolics (added by WhaleyTim (talk) 07:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)).
- Well, it is rather speculative. But it is cited and as good a suggested explanation of how the game came about as any. But the concern is more about establishing where it is "generally accepted" the modern game originated, rather than exact dates and means, which is likely to be never known. How about we drop the shepherds, and go with something along the lines of;
- "The modern game originated in Scotland, where first written record of golf is James II's banning of the game in 1457, as an unwelcome distraction to learning archery."
- That would require a cite for both the originated and the banning, but they can't be difficult to get. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 10:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
It says This article is about the sport. For other uses, see Golf (disambiguation).
The title picture should be replaced because of the massive technical issues with the golfers swing. Wikipedia should have pictures with proper technique, or at the very least better technique. I understand the use of a professional golfer may not be appropriate, although could be used. If not the use of another picture could be used.
http://picasaweb.google.com/110558744294344659947/Golf#5538080455906246066 —Preceding unsigned comment added by CullH (talk • contribs) 00:24, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a guide to golfing technique, so it really doesn't matter how poor the swing is, as long as it's clearly recognisable as golf. But if you have a better photo please feel free to add it. Personally I think the current photo is an good illustration of the game and quite picturesque into the bargain. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 23:24, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Scoring: add "Double Eagle" ?
I would like to suggest adding a "*" next to the Albatross in the scoring section. under the scoring section a sentence something like "* also known as a Double Eagle". Im fairly certain the PGA uses the term "double eagle" exclusively. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa (talk • contribs) 15:53, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
- Since an "eagle" is 2-under-par for a hole, the term "double eagle" technically would mean -4 rather than -3. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps refer to informal use of Mulligan's with hyperlink to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulligan_%28games%29 — Preceding unsigned comment added by LGJ 68 (talk • contribs) 14:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Is swearing really necessary? - Yes, swearing in golf is necessary because it actually believe it or not, reduces the amount of stress that is build up after a bad shot. If you get mental lessons, they may say otherwise but, when you hold your anger in, you actually get even more frustrated. It is a good thing to have a good mental game where all you do is think about the present. Once you hit your shot either good or bad and you get mad, you move on and forget about it. Think of each shot as a new game. You do not want to keep that stress throughout the round or you will "blowup" otherwise.
- Indeed. As noted by P.G. Wodehouse in "Chester Forgets Himself" http://www.k5nd.net/chester-forgets-himself/ WhaleyTim (talk) 01:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Don't the term "approach" refer to the golf club? I believe there isn't anything mentioned about it in the materials section. Also, I know that there is pitching club and sand club.18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Section 7.3 (Other Forms of Play) is redundant with a separate article on Variations of golf
Section 7.3 (Other Forms of Play) is redundant with a separate article on Variations of golf. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_golf#Scoring_Variations
comments on the "swing mechanics" section
These three sentences can be removed entirely.
"Understanding the golf stroke is easier if one first understands the golfer's role. The golfer does not "hit the ball". The golfer's role is to swing the club, which then strikes the ball."
The final two sentences are not facts about the golf swing. They are swing thoughts that are prevalent in golf instruction.
A golfer most certainly hits the ball, just as a baseball player hits the ball. It's practically the definition of the word "hit". In training, a student is sometimes told not to "hit the ball" to keep the student from using too much hand action in the swing but it is not accurate to say that he doesn't "hit the ball" and I don't even know what the quotation marks are for.
- Agreed. I've removed them. Apart from anything else, they read like a guide to improving your golf, which is not what Wikipedia is for. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:42, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Paganica - Roman golf or Victorian myth?
Along with many popular histories of the game, this article mentions a an ancient Roman game called Paganica as a possible precursor to golf. However the non-golf sources I have read only seem to mention Paganica as a ball stuffed with feathers. I get the distinct impression that sometime in the mid 19th century someone argued "Featherie = Golf ball stuffed with feathers","Paginica = Roman ball stuffed with feathers" therefore "Paginica = Roman Golf", which was taken as a fact by subsequent writers. Does anyone know of any reputable source of Roman history that describes Paganica as a golf-like game? WhaleyTim (talk) 14:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
At its peak, Koolan Island had a population of 950 people and had a school, police station, recreation facilities and shops. It had the world's then-longest golf course hole — an 860 yards par 7 number 6 which doubled as the island's air strip. Tabletop (talk) 07:38, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Field Hockey- A major fallacy with the article.
Regarding the origins of the game of golf; Golf is related to a variant of field hockey which is an ancient Greek game. The similarities to field hockey could substantiate the connection and history of Golf to Roman "Paganica".
At some point in history, the players of the game stopped moving the ball around the field as the objective, but rather stood still and only hit the ball. The target or goal became to sink the ball rather than shoot past a boundary line or net and scoring against an opponent was removed from the game, replaced by individual comparative scoring.
The proof exists but the historical record is fragmented. We know similar games existed in the distant past. This subject would be the most important topic to include in the article, because for anyone interested in history this aspect of other games that are related to golf is very interesting. It has great value to approach the issue of how Golf developed into a very unique game. To discover the details of the past would be fascinating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 08:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 25 May 2013
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According to a 3 year study [2009-2012] by GolfTourney.com they found that in United States each golf course hosts an average of 8 amateur golf tournaments per season. Some golf courses host up to 150 events per season while some do not host any at all. The most golf tournaments are hosted in the states, Florida, California, Texas, and Georgia.
- I think that might be overly detailed for this article. Perhaps there might be somewhere to mention it in the Golf course article? Begoon talk 05:44, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Par 70 or 71
The third paragraph under "Par" includes the sentence, "Many major championships are contested on courses playing to a par of 70, 71, or 72 (typically reducing the number of par-4 holes for par-3s and trading distance for difficulty)." But almost every par-70 or par-71 major I've seen reduces the number of par-5s in favor of long par-4s. More than four par-3s on any professional course is extremely rare; the variable is the number of par-5s. I'd edit this myself, but from reading this talk page, I gather that this entire entry is rather contentious. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 04:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've added a "" to that sentence. While that does not resolve the issue you brought up neither the sentence nor the explanation in parentheses is supported by a citation. It would be great if a cite was found for what you reported on. It's making a claim about "many major championships." I'll assume that's the Men's major golf championships? FWIW - looking at the past five years:
- I did not count the numbers of par 3/4/5/more as we are possibly drifting into WP:OR or WP:SYNTH unless someone wants to focus on many decades of Men's major golf championships, the Women's major golf championships and to carefully construct something that shows us how the overall par was arrived at. --Marc Kupper|talk 23:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
How is the "cut" decided?
Golf tournament redirects to this article. I came because I wanted to learn how the cut is done. I know the general pattern for a tournament is they play on Thursday and Friday. The best "X" scores get to continue on into the weekend. How is "X" decided? I had been on the PGA Championship and then 2013 PGA Championship articles but they don't mention the word "cut."
Moving back a year, the 2012 PGA Championship article has sub-sections under "Past champions in the field" sections named "Made the cut" and "Missed the cut" with no explanation on what the "cut" is. 2012 PGA Championship#Second round says "72 players made a cut which fell at 150 (+6)" but again no explanation on what that means.
Also, is "72 players made a cut" correct English for golfers? I'd always heard "made the cut" or "missed the cut" and so updated the 2012 PGA Championship article. --Marc Kupper|talk 19:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2014
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Electric golf carts
Most rounds played with carts?
The article states that "At most courses, electric golf carts are used to travel between shots". It might be the case in North America and Japan (and other Asian countries" but on the British isles and in Scandinavia walking is the norm (electric carts are available but seldom used). I'm not familiar with the situation on the European continent.
So, is the statement that "At most courses, electric golf carts are used to travel between shots" really true from an international point of view? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2015
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