Talk:Hatikvah

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Untitled[edit]

I would really like to see a note in the article regarding the fact that the current anthem is only the first(?) two verses from the original composition, and and maybe to see the entire original text - at least in hebrew.

I'll look around and see if I can dig up the original full text.


It's not the two first verses. It is based mostly on these two, but was rearrange.


Can someone with more knowledge of markup languages move the full text of Imber poem from the external link to the main article?

In Opera 7.5 or latest Mozilla, you can copy & paste it and the browser transforms automatically the Unicode characters in mark-up code. I would do it, but I don't know exactly what would be the order of the verses. (since it's in two columns and right-to-left :-) Bogdan | Talk 19:58, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Mmm, yeah. And can we please have it in English?
(Oh, and what're the last two verses?) --Penta 20:05, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)


Horrible,.. tried to copy and paste, but it gets all messed up. Here's the link: http://www.cramim.rishon.k12.il/rishon/hatikvold.html

At least I can give you the English version without messing up the lay-out:


O while within a Jewish breast,

Beats true a Jewish heart.

And Jewish glances turning East,

To Zion fondly dart,


Chorus

O then our Hope - it is not dead

Our ancient Hope and true

Again the sacred soil to tread

Where David's banner flew.



O While the tears flow down apace,

And fall like bounteous rain,

And to the fathers' resting place,

Sweeps on the mournful train,

Chorus...



And while upon our eager eye,

Flashes the City's wall.

And for the wasted Sanctuary,

The teardrops trembling fall,

Chorus...



O while the Jordan's pent-up tide,

Leaps downward rapidly,

And while its gleaming waters glide,

Through Galilee's blue sea,

Chorus...



And while upon the Highway there

Lowers the stricken Gate,

And from the ruins of Zion's prayer

Upriseth passionate,

Chorus...



O while the pure floods of her eyes

Flow for her People's plight,

And Zion's Daughter doth arise

And weep the long, long night,

Chorus...



O while through vein in ceaseless stream

The bright blood pulses yet,

And on our fathers' tomb doth gleam

The dew when sun is set,

Chorus...



Hear Brothers, mine, where e're ye be,

This Truth by Prophet won:

"Tis then our Hope shall cease to be

With Israel's last son!"

mistake!!![edit]

quotation: http://www.radio.cz/en/html/raab.html Israeli "Hatikva" ("The Hope") with its evocative words about "being a free people in the land of Zion and Jerusalem," and beautiful music. Only in an eighth grade music class did I learn that the melody was adapted from Bedrich Smetana's "The Moldau," part of his "Ma Vlast". He was describing not the Jordan river I knew so well but the Vlatava/Moldau river of his land. Its flowing through Bohemia, over rapids, through Prague, and into the Elbe, were far from my homeland, but the sense of beauty he created was familiar.

And the tune didn't come from Moldavia (as someone who does not know the river Modlau can think) or from Romania, larger country next to Moldavia (as usually written all around the internet). The tune came from czech folk song, smetana probably din't know any folk song from Moldavia but he 100% did know the well known (in Czech republic) folk song about cat and dog.

This mistake is now wide spread beacuse of wikipedia, can you tell me how to fix that?

I am shure beacause I know the history of B. Smetana and his work, I live in Czech rep. and I learned about it in school, and the folk song I had known before I was four years old.

The situation is very unclear. The music was composed by either Nissan Belzer, Imber himself http://daffodils.scream.org/9610.html or most likely, Samuel Cohen coming from Moldavia. Cohen is said to have adapted a Moldavian-Rumanian folksong called "Carul cu Boi", sometimes referred to as "Carel Kuboy" ("Cart and Oxen"). However, there might be different sources of inspiration. The tune is quite universal, reported in Spanish song "Virgen de la Cueva" ("Virgin of the Cave"), Swedish folk song "Ack, Värmeland" and numerous others. It could be, that Cohen used the theme from Smetana's "The Moldau", because that is in turn said to be based on "Ack, Värmeland". On the contrary, the Czech folk song "Kočka leze dírou" is said to have been created after Smetana published his work and people remembered the melody. According to my research, the anthem is based either on the Moldavian song, or Bedřich Smetana's "The Moldau". It is not likely, that "The Moldau" is based on Moldavian "Carul cu Boi". Obviously, the article was not exact. pt 15:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've incorporated this (pt's) information and some more details I've found into the article. I've added a reference to Choral Journal where I found a lot of this information. --Robojames 18:56, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hello, How can Carul cu Boi have influenced Cohen in the 1880s when the lyrics to the song as posted on the national anthems website, in Romanian, clearly mention the fact that the cart and oxen was preferable to the new motor cars? Could not have been written that early if talking about cars. Could Cohen have heard it earlier as an instrumental? What title might it have had then? Romanian folk experts say the tune has nothing to do with folk music styles of the region at all. The whole thing is questionable.

research@musicarc.org

Carul cu Boi may exist in several versions, some more modern, some more traditional. (Though, it's only a guess.) --Yms 10:02, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it may, but until somebody finds an older version the Romanian theory cannot be very convincing. By the way, where did you find the file posted on your LJ page? Googling for 'căi ferate şi vapori' brings 0 hits.
I took it from the Romanian article, it's from this page in Hebrew, which seems to be a copy of this.
Notice that the melody of this Romanian song is exactly the same as Hatikvah (and much closer than the Smetana's version). If it's not the source of Hatikva's melody, it may only mean that someone took Hatikvah's melody and adapted it for this song. --Yms 11:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Somebody could have taken Smetana's melody and made a Romanian song. Amazingly, my ears find Carul cu boi differing much greater from haTikvah than Smetana's work. I am not a musician though
It explains why your ears find it more different ;) Besides that, there is no source that says that people in Rishon could hear the Smetana's symphonic work which was written only a few years before. And there IS a source which says about some Romanian song known to Shmuel Cohen from his childhood. Yms 19:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
My secondary school music teacher (in Flanders) had us listen to the old Flemish song "Ik zag Cecilia komen" ([1]) and then to Die Moldau/Vltava. The similarities between one of the movements in Smetana's work and the Flemish song are so obvious that influence must be suspected (although I do not know whether the Flemish or the Italian vesrion is the oldest). He then had us listen to some unknown music, which he then revealed as the National anthem of Israel - again the similarities were obvious but to the trained musical ears among us the third one was obviously based on Smetana's version, rather than on Cecilia. Note that although most Flemish (and many Dutch) school children used to know this, the resemblance has also been noted outside the Dutch speaking area: [2] (see the part entitled "Origine du thème de Vltava" - which also mentions the possible Swedish connection for Smetana.--Pan Gerwazy 22:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


It's actually quite complicated- neither Smetana nor the composer of Hatikva (Shmuel Cohen) are the "original" composers of the melody. The melody itself is originally some popular wagoner's song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.64.82.26 (talk) 10:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Hatikva is Israel's nation anthem![edit]

The Hatikvah was the de facto anthem of the Zionist Movement and after 1948, of the State of Israel. In 2004, the Knesset made the song the official Israeli anthem.

I thought that the composer was Jewish-Romanian and the song is inspired from a Romanian folk song not Moldovan since Moldova is now part of Romania.



I'd like to know what was the fate of Kurt Weill's orchestation: is it the one one currently in use or not?

The song is actually modal, not in a minor key, though for the most part it's minorDrsmoo 16:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The anthem needs updating as it clearly refers to a pre-1948 era when Jews were praying for the re-constitution of the Jewish state and a return to Jerusalem to re-build the Temple. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.12.7 (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The other songs you are talking about?[edit]

I'm pretty interested in this subject, but could you guys please give us a link to the audio files of the songs that resemble hatikva, because they are very scarce on the web.And can someone tell me if the second part of the anthem (od lo avda tikvatenu} is present in ma vlast? I need some excuse to play this song in public places since I live in an arab country, because someone caught me once and identified the song, I want some kind of excuse to get out of trouble, LOL!


I added that 2Pac sampled hatikva and pointed to a youtube video of said song. I hope this is enough to keep it from getting deleted! 71.236.199.38 10:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)ricardobaltazar

Transcription[edit]

"Tzi(y)on" appears twice in the transcription, and I think it should be spelled tziyon both times.

Not sure about capitalisation - Hebrew doesn't have them after all. Also spelling YERUSHALAYIM instead of Y'rushalayim seems to be closer to modern Israeli pronunciation.

Kol 'od balevav P'nimah -

Nefesh Yehudi homiyah

Ulfa'atey mizrakh kadimah

'Ayin le'tzion tzofiyah -- =>>> le'tziyon


'Od lo avdah tikvatenu

(*)Hatikvah bat shnot alpayim:

Lihyot 'am khofshi be'artzenu -

Eretz Tziyon y'rushalayim.(*)

Wathiik 10:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

I think someone should add sources to the historical section of this article. It can hardly be considered a truly informative article until all necessary sources have been quoted. Thank you.

Differences between Transliterations and Translations[edit]

The modern version and the corresponding portions of the original, nine-stanza version are shown with significantly different transliterations and translations, even where the Hebrew is the same. For example (and you may ignore the fact that one version of the Hebrew is written with vowels, the other without):

Version Hebrew Transliteration Translation
Modern עוד לא אבדה תקותנו Od lo avdah tikvateinu Our hope is not yet lost
Original עוֹד לֹא אָבְדָה תִקְוָתֵנוּ Od lo avedah tikvatenu Our hope will not be lost

These differences will give readers (those who do not or cannot compare the Hebrew) the impression that changes were intentionally made to the song, where it's not clear any changes were made.

Are these differences based on some official, common, or standardized translations and transliterations, or are they merely artifacts from being copied from different sources? Can anyone clarify this in the article by adding an explanation, replacing one or both with more closely corresponding versions, and/or including references to the sources of these translations and transliterations?

GCL 20:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

TIKVATENU is written with no tzere maleh therefore its TIKVATENU in any case, in Standard modern hebrew its still tikvatenu although some say by mistake tikvateinu. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solico (talkcontribs) 12:53, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Controversy section[edit]

Why does the fact that "Rav Kook didn't care for Hatikvah" constitute a "controversy"? Zargulon 09:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea, but you are welcome to remove it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Translation[edit]

Since when does "tehor" mean "fast-paced"?? Shouldn't that part of the english translation be changed to "pure"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.135.162 (talk) 04:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The word Kadimah (קדימה) probably does not mean "onward" in the context of the song, it means "eastward". At least, I believe this is the correct translation (I'm a native hebrew speaker, if anyone cares). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.218.29.26 (talk) 17:41, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Minor formatting issue: left & right quotes[edit]

In the transliteration, the left & right quote marks come out fine, but in the footnote describing the use of the left & right quote marks, they're both just a straight hash mark. I don't know how to fix it.

Gilmer (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


Chinese Translation[edit]

In the Jewish heart
A Jewish spirit still sings,
Kol ode balevav P'nimah -
Nefesh Yehudi homiyah
只要心中光不灭
心声仍呼唤以色列

--

And the eyes look east
Toward Zion
Ulfa'atey mizrach kadimah
Ayin l'tzion tzofiyah.
遥望东方千山外
故国变迁锡安在

--

Our hope is not lost,
Our hope of two thousand years,
Ode lo avdah tikvatenu
Hatikvah bat shnot alpayim:
仍旧怀着盼-望
绵绵不息两千年

--

To be a free nation in our land,
L'hiyot am chofshi b'artzenu
In the land of Zion and Jerusalem
Eretz Tzion v'Yerushalayim
一心盼着得自由
回到锡安,耶路撒冷 — Preceding unsigned comment added by BnaiBrithChai (talkcontribs) 07:17, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

English translation of Tikvatenu[edit]

is this a "official" translation of Tikvatenu? Some of the translations seem patently wrong... Yakatz (talk) 14:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


HUGE Mistake with Hebrew transliteration[edit]

Tzere Maleh in Hebrew is read as Tzere Haser, there are horrile mistakes in the text: פועם is written as PoEIm . it is PO'EM only! no one says POEIM! TIKVATENU, ENENU and not Tikvateinu, Eineinu, whoever wrote that must have a heavy hassidic accent. but I cannot understand how come words with no tzere maleh such as פועם become POEIM. plz fix this.

~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solico (talkcontribs) 12:51, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Media Section[edit]

I've taken the image and audio recording that were in the "Media" section and integrated them into the text of the article. Specifically, I added the photo to the anthem infobox in order to be consistent with similar national anthem articles such as The Star-Spangled Banner and God Save the Queen. But if anyone has a different opinion about how we should organize this, feel free to discuss it here. Gantiganti (talk) 06:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)Gantiganti

Arabic Translation[edit]

Why is there an Arabic translation? Is it not the English Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.186.19 (talk) 23:44, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Arabic and Hebrew are the two official languages of the State of Israel... AnonMoos (talk) 12:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Not "A Jewish soul" - but "A soul of a Jew"...[edit]

Any Hebrew speaking child knows that the proper translation of "נפש יהודי" is "A soul of a Jew", and not "A Jewish soul" (= "נפש יהודית")... I tried to fix it but someone who obviously doesn't know Hebrew changed it back... Another bad translation I tried to fix is "free people" for "עם חופשי". The word "עם" here means "nation" - as in "free nation". The word "people" in Hebrew is "אנשים" not "עם" (although in English "people" could also mean "folk")... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.74.168.235 (talk) 23:08, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Controversy about Holocaust-story[edit]

"A former member of the Sonderkommando reports that the song was spontaneously sung by Czech Jews in the entryway to the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chamber in 1944. While singing they were beaten by Waffen-SS guards.[5]"

A former member of the Sonderkommando with no name mentioned is already doubtfully.

When you have an Auschwitz-tour around the camp, the guide called Shalmi will tell you other-wise: HOloCaust STUDY tour "Again, Shalmi reminded us that the last thing the Czech Jews did before entering the gas chamber, was to sing the Czech national anthem." and not the HatikVAH ! Can you see the CONtradicTIon in THEre?

The INmates OFcourse sang Songs as they had BESides a SWIMmingPOol, foOTbal'field and A Sauna & Even A brothel also A Theater!

The last SENtence is certainly Alie BEcause of the SS had CERTAIN rules to FOLlow in their daily procedure and so-me of them wer' Even persecuted for such crimes.

Iwould Like It TO SUGgest to just deLEte this part, as just quoting from a boOK is'no proOf at all That it al'so reALly hapPENed. --175.137.156.211 (talk) 08:08, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Objections by non-Jewish Israelis section[edit]

Added the following text to the section from an article Liberalism and Right to Culture just meant to expand on the topic-


Liberalism and the Right to Culture, written by Avishai Margalit and Moshe Halbertal, provides a social scientific perspective on the cultural dynamics in Israel, a country that is a vital home to many diverse religious groups. More specifically, Margalit and Halbertal cover the various responses towards the Hatikvah, which they establish the as the original anthem of a Zionist movement, one that holds a two thousand year long hope of returning to the homeland (“Zion and Jerusalem”) after a long period of exile.

To introduce the controversy of Israel’s national anthem, the authors provide two instances where the Hatikvah is rejected for the enstrangement that it creates between the minority cultural groups of Israel and it’s religious politics. Those that object find trouble in the mere fact that the National Anthem is exclusively Jewish while 18 percent of the state's citizens do not practice Judaism and lack any resonation to the anthem’s content and implications.

As Margalit and Halbertal continue to discuss, the Hatikvah symbolizes for many Arab-Israelis the struggle of loyalty that comes with having to dedicate oneself to either their historical or religious identity.

To conclude from their perspective, the national anthem has become more of a cliché rather than a powerful provocation and therefore doesn’t (always) have to be associated with it’s negative connotations. With that said, because of the context and the ongoing political situation in the country that the anthem is representing, the disagreement over the history and roots of the country cause the Hatikvah to remain as a topic of controversy.[1]

References

  1. ^ Margalit, Avishai; Halbertal, Moshe (2004). "Liberalism and the Right to Culture". Social Research: An International Quarterly. 71: 494–497. 

Introductory paragraph[edit]

Since most Jews today are now Israeli citizens, the formulation "some Jews' hope of moving to the Land of Israel and declaring it a sovereign nation" is inaccurate. It's now most Jews. Or better yet, "some Jews" should be changed to "the Zionist hope for Jews to move to the Land of Israel..."

Comments? Zozoulia (talk) 06:05, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

What stat are you using to say most are Israeli citizens? There are about as many Jews living in the US as there are in Israel. According to Jewish population by country that works out to 45% of the Jews in the world live in Israel. What source are you using the enough of the other 55% of the Jews in the world hold citizenship to be able to claim most? What are you using as most, over 50%, 66%, 75%? - GalatzTalk 13:26, 2 November 2016 (UTC)