Talk:Hilltop Youth

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tags[edit]

I added some tags because the neutrality and accuracy of this article seem pretty questionable to me. Some passages are pretty clearly not NPOV (the "anarchist contempt" statement stands out) and there are some pretty bold assertions ("Much of Israel's organic produce is cultivated by the hill top youth") without any citations. I'd be really grateful if someone who actually knows something about this subject (not me) could improve it. P4k 08:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment moved from article.[edit]

The following comment was added to the article by an anon, probably not realising that the Talk page should be used for comments. --Zerotalk 07:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe the comment about restoring monarchy to be accurate. From my readings I believe this to be a misunderstanding of Hilltop Youth's desire to restore Israel to it's ancient boundaries of the Kingdom of David, ie West Bank and Gaza should be annexed to Israel not traded as 'land for peace.' This is a unifying theme in the settler movement of which Hilltop Youth is on the cutting edge these days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.246.90 (talkcontribs)
I was involved with the Hilltop youth in Israel and they really do want Malchut Beis David restored and the current system of parliamentary Democracy abolished. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.64.200.36 (talk) 22:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

who are the hilltop youth?[edit]

I think that the article should be about the phenomenon of hilltop youth and less to try to actually attempt to define them as specific groups which they aren't. The kids who work on the farm with Avri might be 'hilltop youth', but they are not the leaders, or even representatives either. This article adds colour to the subject. --Shuki (talk) 23:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

"Groups"?[edit]

Regarding these edits by User:Shuki. I'm not all together sure what the objection with the "groups" is. Not only is it supported by in some of the references given, but I also have a tough time seeing how this could be WP:NPOV issue. If there are several people in the same area loosely identified with each other, they are by definition a "group". I have difficultly seeing how that isn't the case here.

Additionally, for the record, User:Shuki put a whole bunch of [citation needed]'s in the "influences" section. I'd agree that that section is poorly referenced and needs work. NickCT (talk) 13:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for contacting me. I agree that multiple people in the same vicinity with common objectives, whether long term or short term, whether they know each other or not, and if a spontaneous gathering or regular activity, is a group. But the syntax is very important. What we do know about the hilltop youth and have no evidence otherwise (the Shin Bet would love to know), is that these are 'groups of youth' and not 'youth groups'. The difference between the two is that the latter assumes that this is a regularly organized assembly of youth, with a leadership, while the former does not. My OR, and what no reference will ever say otherwise, is that they aren't 'youth groups' at all, there is no such organization called the 'Hilltop Youth', or any common leadership, let alone leadership at all. Sometimes, journalists, who don't want to bother with facts or need to waste space to explain further, will describe grown men with families as 'hilltop youth'.
W/R to influences, Avri Ran is mentioned, but his claim to fame is ownership of a farm where idealistic youth that can be described as 'hilltop youth', volunteer. Natanel Ozeri was in a similar position a couple of hundred miles away. It's hard to talk about influences since these youth are not part of a common group to influence and come from different backgrounds and locations, again, it's a generic term. Some come from the settlements, others do not. In the article I linked to above, we see how there are also female hilltop youth, and how their 'leadership' (i.e. their rabbi principal) is not involved in off campus activity or condone it. BTW, the NPR reference is already outdated and faulty. There is no Hilltop Youth (as a proper noun) movement, and the five arrested for raiding the army base were not hilltop youth but students from Jerusalem who were shortly released with no charges laid. I'll leave in the unreferenced 'influences' for now, even though it's been uncited for very long, but to give a second chance for another month.
For the record, I've met 'hilltop youth' and would be proud if my children would turn out like that. Idealistic, non-materialistic, and altruistic. The fact that 'they' are accused of 'settler violence' is a stereotypical generalization, the same way it is misleading to describe all urban inner-city youth as violent punks. --Shuki (talk) 19:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Very funny indeed: Ehud Barak, minister for defence, calls them "Jewish terrorists" and his army protects them instead of chasing them away from stolen land. Must we say more about Israel? The political right and the army do whatever they want and no politician dares distrubing them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.244.72.236 (talk) 10:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I did not check that part out about the army 'protecting them'. FWIW, the army protects all people. This is not a forum, so no point in arguing about your perception of the political right and misunderstanding of Israeli politics. --Shuki (talk) 22:07, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

change article title[edit]

I'm thinking we should change the title to Hilltop youth stereotype along the lines of this article: Jewish-American princess stereotype as well as adding these: Categories: Ethnic and religious slurs, Ethnic and racial stereotypes, Stock characters. --Shuki (talk) 20:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmmmm.... Not sure about that. Perhaps we could have a poll? NickCT (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Historic embedding?[edit]

No dates/years are given. From when on did they act, when and where was the term used first? The lemma is lacking, could someone in the know please enlighten us? --141.23.72.194 (talk) 17:53, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

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Reverting on false grounds[edit]

Icewhiz. Could I remind you that I have had my editing rights to work in the I/P area restored. You have been consistently removing, or challenging every other edit I make on a few articles. This edit for example does far more than the ostensible reason given in the es says: You cite WP:BLPCRIME which reads:

A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed a crime, or is accused of having committed one, unless a conviction is secured.[d] If different judicial proceedings result in seemingly contradictory judgments that do not override each other,[e] include all the explanatory information

Your edit summary runs:'Undid revision 792912511 by Nishidani (talk) BLPCRIME vio vs Ettinger, and also wrong on some details, you can only state what he was covicted for.'
I want policy citations for this: 'what policy says one cannot say anything of a suspect other than what a final court proceeding determines?
what policy grounds covers 'also wrong in some details'?

Please give the concrete reasons from policy why this covers a revert that

(a)'In their view' is not acceptable, but your suggested 'ideology' is necessary.
(b)Why you removed the notation that Hilltop youth have been compared to ISIS, while you did not challenge the source. The source says exactly that, and it is not a WP:BLPCrime to state that.
(c)Why reporting correctly what Israeli newspapers said about Ettinger's friendship with the suspected perpetrator of the murderous Duma attack means we are violating Ettinger's right to privacy?

There are several another anomalies, but I expect you to give rational policy grounds for the above.Nishidani (talk) 19:17, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I reverted mainly for your changes to the Ettinger section (that I in the recent past changed to match BLPCRIME, which is why I am watching this page). though the sole reference making a comparision to daesh and referring to a group of living people may be questionable as well (and in general if included should be balanced with views favorable to the movement). Specifically regarding Ettinger he was convicted once, sentenced to 3 months (not 6), for conspiring to collect military intel. Besides his conviction, he was held without trial a couple of times. He was never convicted for promoting or taking part in violent attacks and there is no standing prosecution into this matters at the moment - so stating in wiki's voice (and possibly even at all) that "his militancy ...includes violent attacks" is a clear no go per BLPCRIME (besides the use of the odd term of militancy in way similar to ministry).Icewhiz (talk) 19:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Please reread my request. I gave specific points, bulleted, requesting citations of policy. So far, I can only see you reverted because you disagreed with content I added to the page, content all reliably sourced sourced. You can reply, citing the policy under the questions I asked you. Please do not drift into a statement like the one above.Nishidani (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I replied to the point. He was not convicted for violence, nor is he under trial for violence. Thus, you violated BLPCRIME by stating wiki's voice that he was responsible for violent crimes. He was was sentenced to 3 months, not 6. Check the sourcing provided. Separately he was held in adminstrative detention without trial (also currently noted with correct periods). Please check the current sourcing before returning factually wrong information (6 months). BLPCRIME is a vey strong consideration, specifically for someone who is not even under trial for these alleged actions. Finally, note that whatever you present here has to be NPOV. You can not cherry pick the most negative pieces of info published on this group, without any effort at balancing.Icewhiz (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I corrected his conviction (after spending some time looking into this) - with proper sourcing - here on and on hewiki. He and the other defendants agreed to a plea bargain of 3 months (which is why I was insisting on 3 (and this is what was on hewiki - due to someone (not me) - reading the headline of 3 months)) - however since he was in jail during trial for violating his house arrest terms - he got a "time served" sentence (which was around six months) and released immediately following the plea being entered in the court. My other comments (notably BLPCRIME vio in stating in wiki's voice that he incited or is in charge for violent acts) - still stand.Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Let me first make a logistical point, and then go into some details. The material which Nishidani restored in this edit was present in the article for more than a year. It was removed by IPs, for instance here. The second paragraph in the "Notable exponents" section was added in the same edit that Nishidani made. Icewhiz reverted everything by Nishidani, giving various reasons in the edit summary.

The only criterion one has to be careful of is WP:BLPCRIME. Icewhiz states that one cannot state in Wiki's voice that Ettinger engaged in violence. According to the source cited (Ynet): Ettinger has been known to police for six years from his activities in the Ramat Migron outpost in the Binyamin region, which attracted the radical core of the hilltop youth to him. Ettinger himself has committed violent "price tag" attacks in Palestinian villages. One time, he and his friends were caught by the residents of Qusra, who beat them to a pulp. Is this wrong? I do not know much about Ettinger, so I cannot comment. But I do not see how the paragraph in the WP article violates BLPCRIME. We can add an "According to Ynet..." if one wishes.

For the time being, I am reverting to the stable version before this edit. This will break some things, in particular stuff which Icewhiz added after the mass revert, but you can rephrase or elaborate whatever. I suggest that you discuss various parts separately. Mass reversion is not helpful. Kingsindian   11:49, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I have reverted the ISIS part, for now. I do not know much about the details of the price tag stuff, so I am not touching them for now. I suggest that you discuss each of them separately. Kingsindian   12:01, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

We have a very strong WP:BLPCRIME issue in enwiki. While Police/Shin-Bet suspect Ettinger of being involved with violent attacks - he has never been convicted (his sole conviction is for conspiring to gather military intelligence - due to gathering information on army movements). Not only that - he isn't currently prosecuted (e.g. no pending charge sheet, etc.). We most definitely can't do an "according to YNET/Haaretz/etc." - which is based on unattributed shin-bet leaks. We particularly can not do this without a response from the BLP. Note that Ettinger is mainly known for his connection to the hill top youth by the Shin-Bet (and administrative arrests - without conviction) - he has relatively little notability without this. Even placing him in the article itself is suspect (as we are tying him to the movement) - though I'm for it (if at all - I'm on the relatively loose side of BLPCRIME for the most part) - but if we do place him here, we need to be very-very careful regarding what we state. Furthermore - for the two major "hilltop" affiliated attacks - Duma and the arson at Church of the Multiplication - we have an on-going trial in Duma and a conviction in the Church (one suspect was convicted, one was exonerated) - but against other suspects - Ettinger hasn't been charged in either one - he was placed under administrative arrest right after they occurred - but he was subsequently released without any charge levied against him.
Regarding the ISIS parallel - I don't believe Hillel Gershoni (whom I do appreciate as a column writer) is the best source for this. There is plenty of negative coverage that doesn't go to such hyperbole - and I don't think the parallel to ISIS is all that accurate (I, and others, would shoot for other religious fundamentalist movements - the hilltop youth also pre-dates ISIS) - it seems more a headline grabber than a serious analysis.Icewhiz (talk) 12:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC) There is actually quite a bit of journal/conference papers on them (this isn't new - they date back to the early 2000s as a movement) - in English [1], and Hebrew [2]. For the most part they are focused on building outposts, and not conquering inhabited areas. I believe, at present, that a single fatal attack (Duma) is attributed to a single follower - so this really isn't "ISIS scale".Icewhiz (talk) 12:24, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I read a little bit about Ettinger. In addition to the Ynet source, there are a couple of other reports. In an incident in January 2014, there was an alleged price tag attack by Ettinger and some others: “I was tending my fields when a group of around 30 settlers came down the hill and attacked us with stones,” one local Palestinian farmer told Reuters. “We chased them and they fled to a house under construction. They were cornered there and some of the people here beat them — they had attacked us on our own land.”

However, Pinchasi Bar-On, one of the settlers injured in the clash, said he and his friends were merely hiking in the area and were attacked unprovoked.

There are also many other sources about his activity, mostly quoting security sources. Here is a typical sample: Ettinger is considered a radical member and leader of Israel’s “hilltop youth,” young people from religiously observant families who move to settlement outposts, resist soldiers’ attempts to evacuate them, and intermittently carry out “price tag” hate crime attacks on Palestinian, Christian and Israeli targets.


Ettinger’s lawyer, Yuval Zemer, told The Times of Israel on Wednesday that he was arrested in connection to the Duma murder.

“They suspect him of incitement, conspiracy, being behind the arson of the Church of Loaves and Fishes and they’re also connecting him to the event in Duma,” said Zemer...Zemer says that Ettinger has never been involved in violent activity and that he believes “the main reason they arrested him is because of his blog.”

I do not know how to handle this situation, since the reports are many. There are always stories in the media based on leaks which may or may not pan out. One solution could be to add the accusations, together with a response by Ettinger. I don't know. Kingsindian   12:43, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

End of the day - he wasn't even charged for Duma (a different suspect is on trial) or the Church of Loaves and Fishes (where the trial is over - a single conviction). Regarding the event at Qusra - local Palestinians' suspected they were going to attack - so they attacked Ettinger and his group - so this suspected attempted attack was actually preempted - so they didn't actually carry this out, and we have suspicions of locals and authorities (while Ettinger and his group were actually attacked and wounded). Israeli authorities suspect Ettinger is a "mastermind" or "inspiration" of this rather loose organization (and this is really a very loose organization - it more that disparate groups are similar to each other - but it doesn't seem (from my knowledge of the subject) that there is a "central command" tying all the hilltop outposts together - e.g. South Hebron Hills, Binyamin, or around Itamar or Yitzhar - are all led by different local figures which are of a similar streak, but it isn't as if they have a "hilltop planning comittee" - it is more that they are akin to one other and the younger borderline youth members might move between one locale and another - with the "established families" (on some hill) staying put (typically - you have an outpost with a few families and young kids - which draw to them borderline youth (13-20 year olds))) - so after Duma they placed him under administrative arrest based on their suspicions - but he was never tried. We have BLPCRIME issues even with just mentioning him in the article (all the more so when we are comparing the hilltop youth to ISIS (which actually does have a central command (or used to...)) in the previous section) - but we need to tread very lightly on what exactly he is suspected of.Icewhiz (talk) 12:52, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
The ISIS comparison sounds hyperbolic to me: usually such comparisons are akin to Nazi comparisons nowadays. But it's an attributed opinion about the ideology of Hilltop youth; it does not have any BLP implications as such. I have no opinion either way about whether the opinion should be included. It's an editorial decision and I don't know much about the ideology. Kingsindian   13:09, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Icewhiz. Your edit was manifestly incorrect for many reasons. I examined the page since my last edit. I saw what had been dropped out quietly without any explanation, and restored it while scrupulously maintaining your fresh additions.
  • You just made a blanket revert, under a false edit summary.
  • You didn't address the talk page.
  • You have failed to provide the precise text in the policy cited to justify your edit summary. Policy is written, and interpreted. When you refer to policy, and another edit takes that as flag waving and asks you to cite precisely the words in policy, you should do that. You haven't: you divagate.
  • I see in the meantime Kingsindian has offered some compromise. I have written the Meir Ettinger biography in any case. That has been, word by word, built from the sources quoted. I may have slipped up here and there - it was a rush job on a privately busy day. But please respect other's work. Blanket reverting of experienced editors is always suspicious, and there is always the talk page, where one can ask for clarifications or challenge an issue.Nishidani (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
I did not enter a false edit summary, I was actually quite verbose and specific - though I admit (and I fixed this on my own accord) that I was wrong on one detail. Regarding the Ettinger bio you wrote today - while factually possibly correct (all be it highly negative in tone against and speculative) - it is a violation of BLP and BLPCRIME almost from start to finish. I suggest you tone this down on your own accord, as this clearly violates policy. It is also wrong on some points eg khana chai for instance was founded afer khana's murder - but it more than a bit problematical policy wise to connect the grandson with his grandfather (and offshoots) in the way that you did in a BLP article on the grandson. Icewhiz (talk) 20:54, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Two other people, very familiar with policy, have stated you don't appear to understand the one you cite. So please drop it. And please note: Academic sources connect Meir with his grandfather, not I, so it is not problematical. From her on in, please read the policies you mention, and if your interpretation is not accepted, go to some board and argue for your interpretation. Do not remove or edit material out by citing a reason other editors have argued does not correspond to the wording of policy.Nishidani (talk) 22:16, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Like Kingsindian, I find the ISIS matter a bit too hyperbolic and wouldn't object if it disappeared. However the reason I interrupt my holiday to post here is to refute the interpretation of BLPCRIME that Icewhiz is trying to utilise for the removal of cited material. That policy does not prevent us from reporting suspicions, when the suspicions are property reported (e.g., by reliable press), the people doing the suspecting are notable (e.g., the police or security services) and the person under suspicion is "relatively known" (Ettinger is in fact so well known that he should be treated as a WP:PUBLICFIGURE—follow that link to see the actual rules that apply to someone like Ettinger). In summary, we are perfectly entitled to write stuff like "According to [journalist], the Israeli police suspect Ettinger of [various things] that he has never been charged with." provided that is all provided by reliable sources. Zerotalk 21:01, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Hyperbole and its antithesis, hypobole (understatement) is all over I/P reportage, as I think most informed sources agree. A girl wanting a suicide by cop cop-out from stress under occupation walks towards a checkpoint, waves a knife in the air, and is shot dead. That is reported by all newspapers as an example of a terrorist attack, while the Shin Bet, and students of the topic are now analyzing a good number of incidents in this spate sociologically, not as terrorism, but a desire for martyrdom, done fully cognizant that they will be killed without ever actually carrying out an attack.
Specifically, the report re ISIS reflects not the author's view, but refers to a certain vein of Israeli opinion (a plurality of sources, apparently). Secondly, the ISIS parallel is then explained not in terms of any similarity in potential power to destroy states, but in ideological terms, and as a similar response in terms of religious fanaticism among primarily young people, in two distinct Middle east zones. ISIS had, like all zealous and murderous movements, very small beginnings, until state crises fueled a massive expansion. This hasn't occurred in the West Bank (and I think it won't in the future), but the point made is monitory and not just hyperbole. Nishidani (talk) 21:16, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
@Zero0000: Ettinger is known for being the number-1 Jewish Shin-Bet target - if he weren't marked as "Jewish suspect #1" by Israeli authorities (a "status" he has held for a number of years now) - he wouldn't have been well known (writing a blog on http://www.hakolhayehudi.co.il/ - really isn't grounds for notability or becoming a public figure - most of the writers there are quite obscure - nor is living on a hill top in the West Bank). Some of the past suspicions (e.g. Duma or the Church of the Multiplication) - while highly publicized at the time - didn't actually translate into any charge against him - while others were convicted. Ettinger is a public figure due to being marked as the "number 1 Jewish terror suspect" by Israeli authorities - so this is a circular argument situation - he isn't known in a different context. This isn't a business man / politician / civic leader who is known in some other context and is also under suspicion - he is known because he is under suspicion. In any case - if we are reporting suspicions - they can't be in wiki's voice as a clear fact (e.g. - "His militancy,..., includes violent price tag attacks on Palestinian properties" as was in a version here earlier) - but at most "according to Y, he is suspected of X" (or "as reported in Y from leaks from Z, he is suspected of X").Icewhiz (talk) 21:23, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia editing just consists in looking up a notable topic, among reliable sources, and editing in the relevant data. It's pointless trying to second-guess everything, or make judgements about guilty or not guilty. The public record notes what he's done, what he is suspected of doing and the reasons for his periods in prison and administrative detentions. That's it. We are not privy to what the Shin bet or Judge Avraham Tal read, 182 intelligence reports that convinced the judge, and Moshe Ya'alon to confirm his arrest. Nishidani (talk) 21:39, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
@Icewhiz: Clearly we can't report suspicions as facts, nor can we report them as Wikipedia's suspicious. But that is just basic editor-craft and suspicions that are reported properly are not against the rules. Also, if someone has become a public figure according to our definitions (which incidentally are based on US law like most essential BLP rules in Wikipedia), it is useless to argue that they didn't deserve to become a public figure. Zerotalk 08:43, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Page move[edit]

Page neds to be moved ot "Hilltop youth". This is not a formal organization, it is merely a moniker, hence the 2nd word should not be capitalized.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

It isn't a formal organization, but it isn't a mere description either. It is a popular name for a group of people. I see it both capitalised and not capitalised in good sources. Zerotalk 16:35, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
My two cents is to keep the caps. While not officially a group or used by themselves, it is used by authorities, the public, media, and researchers to refer to the supposed group, who are fairly identifiable - both in terms of living location and in terms of dress, hair, beards, and skullcap styling. Until and if some other name emerges this is effectively a proper name.Icewhiz (talk) 17:38, 31 July 2017 (UTC)