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Page name- "Ghost gun" or "Privately made firearm"

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There's a Wikipedia policy about naming articles. Wikipedia:Article titles. Part of it is at WP:COMMONNAME. It says that "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's official name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources)..." The vast majority of sources use the term "ghost gun" to refer to unserialized guns. Only the official U.S. Government sources use "Privately made firearm". And even they agree that the common term is "ghost gun". Look at https://www.atf.gov/firearms/privately-made-firearms. It says "PMFs are commonly referred to as “ghost guns” ". The common name is "ghost gun", and that should be the title of the article. WestRiding24 (talk) 07:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 July 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Homemade firearm. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 11:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Privately made firearm → Ghost gun – WP:COMMONNAME, see above. WestRiding24 (talk) 08:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 01:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Leaning support, or move to Homemade firearm or Homemade gun: Things made by private companies are privately made things. Most firearms are privately made, but those are not what the article is about. The current title is therefore confusing. The current opening sentence also violates WP:ISATERMFOR. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 09:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Homemade gun is a redirect to Improvised firearm - would using that title mean the topics would be merged?
    • As for "Homemade firearm", I don't see that term being used widely at all.
    • A 3D printed firearm isn't quite the same as a homemade gun, because some companies are making and selling them. Also, the 80% receivers and other kits may not include 3D printed parts.
    • The main point of changing the name (back) to "ghost gun" is that it's the common name. "Privately made firearm" is used only by the ATF, who admits that "ghost gun" is the common name.[1] The vast majority of sources use the term "ghost gun". WestRiding24 (talk) 08:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • If we don't want to use the informal and allegedly biased term "ghost gun", I think "Homemade firearm" captures the meaning well as a WP:NDESC neutral descriptive title. These are firearms made by someone who does not manufacture them professionally for sale (since that would land someone in a regulated classification: "anyone intending to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution is required to obtain a Federal Firearms License"). I think "homemade" does not imply improvised design – it merely implies using methods and materials that are feasible for the general public at an affordable cost. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:43, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly support the change to ghost gun. This is the term in popular culture and the original title of the article. —⁠ ⁠Kamenev (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Reopening and relisting, per request on my talk page. BilledMammal (talk) 01:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Opposition Strong opposition and support move to Homemade Firearm' to the proposed change. In addition to that fact that this seems to be a proposed move just to prove a point, with edit history commentary suggesting as much (→Page name- "Ghost gun" or "Privately made firearm": make it official), I present the following, also available on the then-closer's talk page, as to why I strong disagree with this suggestion:
  1. It is not the lack of serial numbers, being 'untraceable ghost' as it would, that makes this manner of firearm distinguishable, but the fact it is made by the private individual. Something better described by "Privately made firearm". From a historical standpoint, an issue that arises from this is that, at least in the United States (which appears to be so heavily emphasized in this article that it has lead to a globalize template being placed), a lack of serial numbers was a common occurrence for much of U.S. history. For instance, U.S. Army weapons made at the Springfield Armory did not have serial numbers until 1865 (even though production began 70 years earlier). Likewise, when the Federal Government did begin considering serial number requirements in earnest, such as with a 1958 regulatory proposal by the IRS, they faced heavy opposition and were ultimately watered down. Even the later 1963 Assassination of John F. Kennedy did little to save early predecessors to what would eventually become the Gun Control Act of 1968 from criticism, of which much was focused on serial number requirements. And, I can find no major news outlets suggesting that such pre-1968 production model firearms are "ghost guns", so the emphasis on serialization imported by the 'ghost' framing is imprecise.
  2. Even when lack of serialization is mentioned, use of the term "Ghost gun" almost always emphasizes that these firearms are homemade, again lending credence that "Privately made firearm" is a more natural title. As an example, in a report by Everytown for Gun Safety on "ghost guns", the authors, lay out their basic definition for the term: "A ghost gun is a DIY, homemade gun made from readily available, unregulated building blocks." However, in stating a defaced firearm is not a ghost gun,the authors make it very clear that the self-assembled nature of these firearms is the main factor, not the lack of serial numbers: "No. Defaced guns are sometimes referred to as ghost guns, but defaced guns are different. A defaced gun is a commercially manufactured firearm that has had its serial number obliterated.". Again, something naturally described in the title "Privately made firearm".
  3. Another issue is that the term "Ghost gun' simply isn't a long-standing common name for these firearms, contrary to what WestRiding24 would like others to believe. The very term "Ghost Gun" wasn't even coined until 2012, and the first scholarly mention I can even find is from 2014. Reporting by outlets explicitly in favor of gun control, such as The Trace, admit as much: "'Ghost gun' is a relatively new term." It should then come as no surprise for me to state that I couldn't seem to find much as for any earlier mention of the term being used the sense given, not at least in Google Scholar, ResearchGate, PubMed, or any other large database.
  4. What I did find however, is that the term "Homemade firearm" predates "Ghost gun" and is used specifically in multiple scholarly publications, such as this one, that one, that other one, and yet another one, all from more than 25 years ago. Consequently, the following comment made by WestRiding24 can be disposed of as simply false: "As for 'Homemade firearm', I don't see that term being used widely at all.".
  5. With respect to the prior move from "Ghost gun" to "Privately made firearm", as opposed to seeing it as a shift from a supposedly 'common name' as argued by the two supporting editors in the recent since-reopened move request, as far as talk page discourse goes, the change was welcomed and considered as correcting the inherent bias in the prior title. To quote Fuzheado on April 22, 2022, "Folks, the lead of this article is a bit of a Frankenstein's monster - it is still written as if it is talking about the charged term of 'ghost gun' rather than "privately made firearm". Similarly, the term "ghost gun" was not considered a common name, but rather as biased, as evidenced in earlier discourse like that by Asmoaesl, on September 18, 2021, "This page has a lot of bias, quoting news articles of the left-wing and using shock terms like "ghost guns" as opposed to "privately made firearms" as the ATF calls them.".
    • In conclusion, the title "Ghost gun" is neither recognizable (other than as being biased), nor natural (having being contrived recently back in 2012), nor precise (not obvious that it doesn't include old firearms or those which have been defaced), nor concise or consistent, nor a common name. In contrast, the title "Privately made firearm" is plainly recognizable (as referencing a firearm which is privately made), it flows naturally (a firearm which is privately made obviously is called a 'privately made firearm'), it is precise (making clear an emphasis on self-assembly), concisely does in no less words than needed, and can be consistently used without need for clarification. Even "Homemade firearm" would work better than the amorphous framing of "Ghost gun". Irruptive Creditor (talk) 04:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move to Homemade firearm. There are countries in the world where firearms are manufactured by government entities, and "privately made" sounds more like a contrast to that. I would also note, however, that if you go back far enough, there were gunsmiths in American colonial whose work was basically done at their home, rather than at some sort of factory. BD2412 T 17:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a good point. Personally I would see "Homemade" as meaning "not made by a professional" or perhaps in a professional manufacturing settings, rather than "at home", but there's no reason a professional couldn't ply their craft at home. That might be an argument for another title, but I still think "Homemade" gets the point across suitably, especially for the modern era.
    On that note, Support Homemade firearm, per the common name argument laid out above. ASUKITE 16:16, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also support Homemade firearm, but I put my primary expression of support up above with my original comment, thinking it might be less confusing to keep my comments together. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not all homemade firearms are ghost guns

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A ghost gun is a homemade firearm that is difficult for law enforcement to trace because it lacks a gun serial number. [1][2][3][4][5] [6] [7] The lead sentence of the article implies that all homemade firearms are ghost guns, which is not the case.


The lead sentence of the article should be changed to reflect this. T g7 (talk) 23:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has already been mulled over at length in the move discussion, but I’ll repost it here as for why ghost gun has been rejected in regard to serial numbers:

"It is not the lack of serial numbers, being 'untraceable ghost' as it would, that makes this manner of firearm distinguishable, but the fact it is made by the private individual…From a historical standpoint, an issue that arises from this is that, at least in the United States (which appears to be so heavily emphasized in this article that it has lead to a globalize template being placed), a lack of serial numbers was a common occurrence for much of U.S. history. For instance, U.S. Army weapons made at the Springfield Armory did not have serial numbers until 1865 (even though production began 70 years earlier). Likewise, when the Federal Government did begin considering serial number requirements in earnest, such as with a 1958 regulatory proposal by the IRS, they faced heavy opposition and were ultimately watered down. Even the later 1963 Assassination of John F. Kennedy did little to save early predecessors to what would eventually become the Gun Control Act of 1968 from criticism, of which much was focused on serial number requirements. And, I can find no major news outlets suggesting that such pre-1968 production model firearms are 'ghost guns', so the emphasis on serialization imported by the 'ghost' framing is imprecise.".

If you have anything to disprove the above, please let me know. Until then, peace out. Irruptive Creditor (talk) 01:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ghost%20gun
  2. ^ https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2652/text
  3. ^ https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/frame-and-receiver-rule-goes-effect
  4. ^ https://www.doj.state.or.us/oregon-department-of-justice/office-of-the-attorney-general/spotlight-ghost-guns/
  5. ^ https://pars.lasd.org/Viewer/Manuals/13233/Content/16603
  6. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/14/us/ghost-guns-homemade-firearms.html
  7. ^ https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-ghost-guns-federal-regulations-atf-fb38d09a44ddc8fb7074a4273ae4bcd5
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