Talk:Iberism

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On 4 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Iberian federalism to Iberism. The result of the discussion was moved.

Move

Should this be Iberian federalism? --Error 18:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. "Iberic" is a mistranslation from Spanish or Portuguese. FilipeS 00:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sci Fi

The poll at the very end of the entry showing high percentages of Portuguese folks cheering a united country with Spain is just hillarious. It is like in California they made a poll asking whether they should merge with México, lots of people would say "yes" just because...it is not going to happen because it is not in the agenda, not even remotely. Someone who is not familiar about Portugal nationalist sentiment vs. Spain may be misled by this one. Mountolive 20:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

well yes. But there are things that link both countries. The text is not good, even things like Olivenza that clearly stress the relation between both countries is presented in a positive way. There's an interesting article over Iberism and the Portuguese reasons http://dn.sapo.pt/2006/10/10/opiniao/o_iberismo.html that was mostly due to the dispute of southern Africa during the scramble for Africa. Portugal wanted to unite Angola and Mozambique, but the British wanted to unite South Africa and Egypt. Creating a breach in the relations between Portugal and England and approaching Portugal to Spain. There is still a high percentage of the population that is functionally illiterate and one of the major TV channels is controlled by a Spanish group and often does Spanish advertising. The fact is that both countries need each other and the economical relations between both countries are very important to both. Portugal is more important to Spain's exports than all Latin America all together and it was because of Spain that Portugal did not entered into a recession, despite what the article states. Both countries are also cooperating as a tourist destination in major international markets (out of Europe). Another thing is that the article ignores that both countries are already a single economy through the European Union, although these countries together would remove Canada from the G7, while counting the 2006 GDP, it wouldn't, but that's the current situation, not the trend.

As for the king of Spain, that is natural; he was exiled in Portugal during the former Spanish regime, speaks fluent Portuguese and as all modern kings do nothing that is politically controversial, so that is not a surprise that people see him as a nice person. As for people preferring Madrid, well that's really really odd. Unexplainable.

Another think the article presents the idea of the incorporating Portugal in Spain; Portugal was also in the verge of assimilate Spain by dynastic succession.

--Pedro 20:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with most of the things you mention: but I was not saying that both countries are living back to back anymore. I just noted the fact that the poll is sci-fi politics and just some way for the Portuguese folks to vent, because of the present situation there. People who are not aware of this -and that is most people, because this is neither Portuguese nor Spanish wikipedia- may conclude after this poll results, that iberism is indeed a real idea going on these days and that indeed 1 every 4 Portuguese would like to see their country merging with Spain, which is obviously not true, right? Mountolive 05:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is biased. These countries no longer live back to back (they used to ignore one another in every field, even history in classrooms), there's a significant improvement but also do not walk hand-in-hand. But I'm sure (POV) that people do not have an "issue" with the Spanish people - by the contrary, maybe with the Spanish state, but not its people. Economically Portugal still depends on what occurs in Germany. --Pedro 10:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

LMAO, I can't believe this!

The green-red-yellow flag is actually a drawing I made in paint while discussing the Portuguese poll in a Spanish forum, Meristation. Look how badly had been erasedthe Portuguese and Spanish coat of arms from "my" design, which had a classical Austro-Hungarian taste. Said flag had not exised or waved ever, if i'm not mistaken.--Menah the Great 13:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I had never seen that flag before. Better remove it. Besides, according to description, it is a merger of the Spanish flag and the old Portuguese flag, but turns out that none of the former Portuguese flags was green. Hús ö nd 15:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Was"?

I'm going to change "was an ideology" to "is ..." because: a) pt.wiki has "é" and es.wiki has "es" and b) even if political parties aren't supporting it, José Saramago is alive and arguing for Iberism and so is Carlos Saura so it can't be said to be dead.A Geek Tragedy 08:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of Iberia

The Iberian flag was created by the Catalan writer Sinibald Mas i Sans in 1854. It is quartered with the colours of the monarchist Portuguese (white and blue) and Spanish flags (red and yellow), dating from 1830 and 1785 respectively. The Iberian flag is much older than the republican Spanish and Portuguese flags (1868 and 1910 respectively).

It is not a coincidence that the Iberian flag has the same colours (in a different order) as the flag of the Maritime Province of Barcelona. Barcelona was the birth-place of Mas i Sans.

According to the Iberists, the Federation or Confederation should be formed by the peninsular parts of Portugal and Spain (without the Aran Valley, which should belong to Gascony), the Balear Islands, Gibraltar, Andorra, and the Basque and Catalan regions of France. Four languages should be official: Spanish, Galician-Portuguese, Catalan and Basque.

Mas i Sans wanted the federal or confederal capital city of Iberia to be established at Santarem, Ribatejo, Portugal, but the capital city of the Diocesis Hispaniarum, created by the Roman Emperor Diocletianus in 287 C.E. was Emerita Augusta, Merida, Spanish Extremadura.

Antonio Lobo Antunes an iberist ?

Are you sure ? neve heard of that. Actually recently he stated he loved Portugal so much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.180.189 (talk) 22:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence supporting the claim António Lobo Antunes was ever in favor of Iberian federalism and he was consequently remove from the Iberist personalities's list.Sindu5673 (talk) 15:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sindu5673: There are sources that claim something along those lines (su "visión cultural coincide con el iberismo")^[1] So I think he might be mentioned in some way in the text if the article were to be expanded. However, I deem this kind of list as wholly unenciclopaedic trivia, altogether.--Asqueladd (talk) 19:07, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Asqueladd I skimmed through the reference you provided. It claims that "Antonio Lobo Antunes's cultural vision coincides with Iberism", however that statement is tangential and ambiguous. I understand his alleged "cultural vision coinciding with Iberism" as a favorable stance towards intensification of cultural exchanges within the Iberian Peninsula, nothing more. Bilateral collaboration and political merging are 2 very different ball games nonetheless. I did some extensive research but so far have yet to find any document with statements of his unequivocally supporting an Iberian Federalism political project.Sindu5673 (talk) 15:45, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. @Sindu5673:. But as well as a political one, a "cultural iberism" and an "economic iberism" have been defined.^[2] I think the insertion of such content might be more natural if this entry were to be renamed to "Iberism" or "Iberismo". Again, I would drop the entire list altogether, anyways. Regards.--Asqueladd (talk) 22:17, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Asqueladd Agreed about the list. Best regards.Sindu5673 (talk) 17:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Peralta García, Beatriz (2014). "Una idea recurrente: reflejos del iberismo en la prensa española (1982-2011)". Arbor. 190 (766). Madrid: Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas. doi:10.3989/arbor.2014.766n2012.
^ Matos, Sérgio Campos (2009). "Was Iberism a Nationalism? Conceptions of Iberism in Portugal in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries". Portuguese Studies. 25 (2): 215. ISSN 0267-5315. JSTOR 41105321.

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Warning

There are certainly problems with this entry, starting with the evident lack of sources. A bigger problem, though, is the issue of user KirrVlad vandalizing this entry from time to time when he changes unsourced content for (also unsourced) bonafide bullshit [1][2].--Asqueladd (talk) 23:43, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is indeed ludicrous

Iberian peninsula has 5 countries (Portugal, Catalunya, Corunha, Euskal Herria and Castilla-León), not merely 2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8A0:ECA0:B601:482E:CE38:C966:33D2 (talk) 18:10, 18 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wtf? Daniwhite2408 (talk) 14:34, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 16:35, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Iberian federalism → Iberism – The concept is the unification of the Iberian peninsula, it doesn't necessarily has to be restricted to a federation. The term "Iberism" remains advocating for the unification of the peninsula [3], however if this is too vague for some users, "Pan-Iberism" or "Iberian unionism" should do the work. Super Ψ Dro 20:57, 4 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:41, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suport per arguments made above. S.G ReDark (talk) 00:02, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would need evidence that "Iberism" is actually a somewhat established word in English before I could support such a move. It's certainly much more obscure than "Iberian". It also would not suggest a very precise meaning to the minds of most English speakers. How about "Iberian unification"? AnonMoos (talk) 17:40, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Either Iberism, Iberianism, Pan-Iberianism or the unadapted Iberismo are ok. The current title (and its restrictive scope) has long been a problem in this article in regard of how Iberian Studies sources (primarily in the Portuguese-language and the Spanish-language, but to a limited extent, also in other languages, such as English [4][5]) approach the (main) topic.--Asqueladd (talk) 19:15, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose Iberismo, as it is not universal among Iberian languages. Super Ψ Dro 12:09, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not a pressing issue because English-language sources equally use it [6].--Asqueladd (talk) 12:15, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Peralta García, Beatriz (2014). "Una idea recurrente: reflejos del iberismo en la prensa española (1982-2011)". Arbor. 190 (766). Madrid: Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas. doi:10.3989/arbor.2014.766n2012.

[2] Matos, Sérgio Campos (2009). "Was Iberism a Nationalism? Conceptions of Iberism in Portugal in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries". Portuguese Studies. 25 (2): 215. ISSN 0267-5315. JSTOR 41105321.

[1]

[2]