Talk:Yisrael Friedman of Ruzhin

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rename[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no real consensus on anything. Part of the problem may be the lack of a definite proposal so if anyone wants to make a move request with a clear proposal I suggest they do so. Dpmuk (talk) 01:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Israel Ruzhin → ? — Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:45, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rename[edit]

OK. I followed Chesdovi's advice and renamed it "Israel Friedman of Ruzhyn". -- -- -- 21:31, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think that's best. Chesdovi (talk) 23:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re-evaluation[edit]

Hi, I was unaware of the discussion taking place above while it was happening. Now that the page has been expanded into a proper biography of a major Hasidic Rebbe, I would like to suggest that the page be renamed Yisroel Friedman of Ruzhyn, in keeping with the ongoing practice of naming pages with Hebrew rather than Anglicized names – e.g. Yitzchok Friedman (his grandson), Mordechai Shlomo Friedman (his great-grandson), and many other Rebbes (e.g. Aharon Rokeach of Belz, Shmuel Bornsztain of Sochatchov, Shlomo Chanoch Rabinowicz of Radomsk). Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 21:50, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Throughout the article, I referred to the place as Ruzhyn and the dynasty as Ruzhin. Therefore the page should probably be called Yisroel Friedman of Ruzhin. Yoninah (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@Yoninah: I was unaware of the whole discussion that took place here, including your suggestion, when I did the page move you thanked me for. I was doutfull wether to name it "Yisrael" or "Yisroel". Same dout is with a bunch of other article names including "Yitzchak", Yisrael", Avraham" etc. etc. What do you think? Should we move it again to "Yisroel"? (P.S. My Havarah, as was the subject's (the Ruzhiner's) own, is closer to "Yisroel" than "Yisrael") תנא קמא (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  1. תנא קמא, you should always check the talkpage b4 renaming a pg. as well as b4 making other major changes to a pg.
  2. As for "Yisrael" or "Yisroel" etc., see similar discussion @ Talk:Sholom Rokeach. -- -- -- 22:04, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So Yoninah and -- -- -- what to do? Move to "Yisroel" (as Sholom Rokeach and a lot of others) or not to move? תנא קמא (talk) 11:17, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nicknames: is "tiferet Yisroel" one of them? Or what's the connection?[edit]

@Dpmuk, Chesdovi, Yoninah, and -- -- --: The page on the Tiferet Yisrael Synagogue states, quoting from the Jerusalem Municipality website [1], that it was "named after Rabbi Yisroel of Ruzhin", with no further explanation. Was he named "tiferet Yisroel"? (Btw, daoes "tiferet" mean 'adornment', as written in the Tiferet article, or 'glory/splendour', as written on the disambiguation page Tifereth Israel?) Or was the synagogue considered as the adornment/glory/splendour of the man who sponsored it? Or was the synagogue also called "Ruzhiner shul" or alike, and they forgot to write it? If and when you figure that out, can you please amend all those vague or wrong statements? (Tiferet_Yisrael_Synagogue, Tifereth Israel, Tiferet, maybe even Israel Friedman of Ruzhyn). Thank you! Arminden (talk) 12:01, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

After the death of Hasidic rebbes, their teachings are compiled under a stylized name, which the authors themselves are then referred to—e.g. the Gerrer rebbes the "Lev Simcha" (Simcha Bunim Alter) and the "Beis Yisrael" (Yisrael Alter). Stylized names are often drawn from verses in Tanakh and other rabbinic sources. In this case, "Tiferet Israel" is a poetic name given to Rabbi Israel of Ruzhin, and the synagogue is named in his honor. I'm afraid I don't understand the rest of your question or what you want us to do. Best, Yoninah (talk) 13:50, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: Hi, and thank you! I'm learning. I didn't know that the stylised names are given posthumously along with publishing the compilation of their work. So, Rabbi Israel of Ruzhin has been named "Tiferet Israel". Btw, I see he's not alone: there is an article Tiferet Yisrael (commentary), about a commentary on the Mishnah written by Israel Lipschitz. That makes it at least 2 commentators with the same "stylised name", whatever that should be called.

  • Is there a useful source for what you wrote? It needs to be added to the Tiferet Yisrael Synagogue article to make the connection intelligible. I would also add it to the lead (first paragraph) of Israel Friedman of Ruzhyn.
  • It should then be added to the disambiguation page Tifereth Israel, as the "title" of R. Israel of Ruzhin and his work, the same way as it is mentioned for R. Israel Lipschitz. But are you sure that his collected work received this title, or was it just meant for the man in this case? Maybe his merits were not connected to his written work.
  • Do you maybe know what "tiferet" actually means? The Tiferet page says "adornment", the Tifereth Israel page something quite different: "glory/splendor". We need all of these to be consistent, not contradicting one another. If the context creates new nuances, those should be specifically mentioned, but the main meaning should be mentioned first and in a consistent manner.
  • Is there any article dealing with this tradition, of creating titles for important deceased commentators? I couldn't find any, and if there is, it's not linked to any of the related pages, which makes it quite invisible (see Title of honor and in all the other articles which there under "See also"). Is there any term for this type of name? It is not a honorific, since that is a standardised formula while this is custom-made; it's not a nickname; it comes closest to an Arabic laqab, but a) it's Jewish :) , and b) again, it's custom-made, although it has some recurrent themes. It has no presence on Wikipedia, and it should. Hebrew acronyms, like in Rambam, are dealt with, but that's just a related topic and not the same.

So there is work connected to this information :) Would you like to do it, as you seem the No. 1 specialist in this matter around here? Thanks and cheers, Arminden (talk) 07:34, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see the article states that he did not write any books, but that his sayings and teachings have been recorded by Ruzhiner Hasidim and biographers. So, is there a published oeuvre? Is it known as "Tiferet Israel / Tiferes Yisroel"? Is this also the title that his hasidim would use for the rebbe? This is nowhere stated explicitly, and it needs to be - and it needs to be explained. All else is just meant to confuse the WP user.Arminden (talk) 07:53, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden: Right, Rabbi Yisrael of Ruzhin didn't have any books published. I was just trying to give you an outline of the concept. In addition to giving a rabbi a stylized name after his death—now I also remember the Shem MiShmuel (Shmuel Bornsztain), the Avnei Nezer (Avrohom Bornsztain), and the Tiferes Shlomo (Shlomo Rabinowicz)—Jewish authors, living and dead, are also called by the name of their important works—e.g. "the Chofetz Chaim" (Yisrael Meir Kagan), "the Aruch HaShulchan" (Yechiel Michel Epstein), and "the Even Yisrael" (Adin Steinsaltz). Not only hasidim but all of Klal Yisrael refers to them as such. Finally, Jewish leaders, men and women alike, may be given a stylized name if a building is being built in their honor, or a school (here in Jerusalem a lot of new schools were named after Rebbetzin Batsheva Kanievsky after her death, like "Neve Batsheva"), which could explain the Tiferet Yisrael synagogue name. So you're right, other rabbis named Yisrael, like Israel Lipschitz, could be given the same stylized name. The name "Tiferet Yisrael" is likely a reference to God; I would have to look it up to see if it's in the siddur or in a rabbinical source. Yes, it's a great idea for an article. It will take a lot of research in Hebrew sources. I don't have time right now to do it, but I would put it on my list of things to do this year. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 10:30, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The synagogue was named 'Tiferet Yisrael' after Rabbi Yisrael Friedman of Ruzhin, who even donated the money to buy the plot on the site, And according to the Biblical verse: "Alas! The Lord in His wrath Has shamed Fair Zion, Has cast down from heaven to earth The majesty of Israel. He did not remember His Footstool On His day of wrath" ("Lamentations 2:1".)[1]

I assume that the source for the use of Tiferet תפארת in such a context is Mishlei 17:6 עֲטֶרֶת זְקֵנִים בְּנֵי בָנִים וְתִפְאֶרֶת בָּנִים אֲבוֹתָם.2A01:6500:A037:6BF8:D202:66A5:9008:C8AD (talk) 08:15, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Translation by Sefaria. תנא קמא (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the source, תנא קמא! But isn't it a weird translation? "Tiferet", like the sefirah, is "glory" or "splendor". We could probably find a better translation. Yoninah (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@תנא קמא:, hi. You're a good scholar of the Toireh, but you don't seem to get the point: why is the specific name "Tiferet Israel" connected to that specific rabbi? One cannot write "it has been called Booboo after Mister Lala" without explaining how Lala's surname, or nickname, or favourite song, or most beloved German Shepherd dog was called Booboo. OK? And you cannot remove "dubious" tags unless you give an explanation IN THE ARTICLE, one that ADDRESSES THE QUESTION. Thanks and cheers, Arminden (talk) 17:52, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr. Arminden, sorry for my poor English, but it seems to me that everybody except you gets the point. Just like "Trump Heights" ("Ramat Trump") is named after President Donald Trump even if his name is not "Heights" or "Ramat". Same is here. Its named "Tiferet Yisrael" after Reb Yisrael. Its just a ??? taken from a Bible verse that signifies the glory/splendor/majesty of the Rebbe of Ruzhin and his Creator. Betikva LeHavanah. תנא קמא (talk) 18:00, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@תנא קמא: I totally get what Arminden is driving at. Wikipedia is written for all readers and all cultures. You must assume that non-religious and non-Jewish readers are looking at this page and wondering what Tiferet Yisrael has to do with Yisrael Friedman or, for that matter, with Israel Lipshitz. A footnote needs to be added, and sourced, to explain the connection. Yoninah (talk) 18:14, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I started a discussion about the translation of Tiferet HERE. Thanks. תנא קמא (talk) 18:41, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr. תנא קמא, we start getting somewhere, but our friend Yoninah is right. Mr. Trump is not the president of the State of Trump, so there can be little confusion there about Ramat Trump. But if a synagogue is called "Splendour of Israel", one might think it's about the splendour of Jacob/Israel, or of the Sons or the Land of Israel. Alternatively, Yoninah explained to me that there is a possibility that the rabbi is named by his hasidim "Tiferet Israel" as a honorific title, maybe after some sermon he called this way (he didn't write books). A rabbi's work is worthy of such title. But it never occurred to me that the synagogue's name is meant to signify "The splendour of Israel Friedman". Is it?! Arminden (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  1. The subject of this article was not and is not called “The Tiferet Yisrael”; so nothing needs to be added to the lead of this pg.
  2. As the synagogue’s founders wanted to name the synagogue after the rabbi, and as it would not be appropriate to simply name the synagogue “Yisrael”, they named it “Tiferet Yisrael”, with the word “Yisrael” being a reference to the rabbi, and the word “Tiferet” poetically taken from the Biblical verse, the phrase possibly being open to interpretation. (As the biblical reference apparently refers to the Temple, and as a synagogue is called בית מקדש מעט (a “small Temple”), it is possible that the name of the synagogue alludes to the idea that the synagogue is (or should be) an adornment/glory/splendor/majesty of (or for) [the Nation of] Israel; or alternatively, the name of the synagogue might have been meant to allude to the idea that the rabbi was (or is) an adornment/glory/splendor/majesty of (or for) [the Nation of] Israel, or to some other poetic interpretation. It is also possible that the synagogue’s founders didn’t have any particular interpretation in mind other than the Biblical phrase in and of itself. Unless we find a reliable source (unlikely in my opinion), there would be no way to know exactly what the founders had in mind.)
  3. Good luck, Yoninah, on the upcoming new article. I’m just wondering what would the name of the article be? Rabbinic titles? I also don’t really see what exactly would require a full article? What would there be to write other than the simple dictionary definition that many rabbis are called by the name of their work?

May we merit to experience the Final Redemption, speedily in our days, -- -- -- 22:04, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah and -- -- --: Look what I found: Jewish name#Pen-names. It is part of a largely unsourced page, not well linked, which makes it hard to find. Plenty of space to improve, not least by adding exmples! Cheers, Arminden (talk) 16:37, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Arminden: that's great! I can certainly start from there and see if it develops any further. But I'm very busy with off-wiki work and won't have time for this right now. Yoninah (talk) 19:51, 5 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://allaboutjerusalem.com/he/article/%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%9B%D7%A0%D7%A1%D7%AA-%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%AA-%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%9F-%D7%91%D7%A7
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Yisrael_Friedman_of_Ruzhin&oldid=1207311706"