Talk:Jat Muslim

Experimental reformatting

I have been bold and reformatted one section into what I believe to be a more legible and user friendly format. I will check back here for comments. If there are no adverse comments I will gradually work through the article performing the same task. of course someone else is welcome to do this as well, or in my place Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:06, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

All done. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 11:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Intermarriages

The Muslims that came to Muslim empire through conversion and conquest in South Asia intermarried with local Muslims. Many Muslim ruler married princes from local dynasties. The foriegn Muslim nobles and other families settled and intermarried with local Jats and Rajput Muslim families. In Islam, there is no taboo about marrying out of ones class or even one limiting your marriage to one girl. Jat Muslims have married other Muslims and many other Muslims married into Muslim Jats and became part of Muslim Jat community.AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 12:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

roma

this whole connection with romas and jats is actually a propaganda by a certain editor against Jat people. romas have indian dna as do the jats they are not just related to jats. you will not find this editor stating that romas are related to other indian communities like brahmans or ramgharias or khatris instead he has chosen to malign the jat people. its a shame when people bring their personal bigotry into historical articles.--92.15.228.243 (talk) 23:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Conversion of the Jats to Islam????

Conversion of the Jats to Islam section is all propaganda without any credible source or verified refrence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.21.182.12 (talk) 07:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

read the book chachnama. it states that the buddhist priests of the Jats had prophesied and army coming to relive them from oppression of raja dahir and it would be right to conclude that many Jats also accepted the relgion of those that were prophesied to help them as they joined the armies of the Arabs. its logical. there is another reference in a persian book which i have read and will find that Arabs who stayed in Sindh became part of certain Jat tribes which is again proof that these Jats had accepted Islam and intermarried with Arabs.--92.15.154.144 (talk) 03:01, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Also in the Punjab gazetteers of the British many western Punjabi Jatts claim conversion to Islam at hands of Sufi saints like Baba Fareed Ganjshakar. --92.15.154.144 (talk) 03:09, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Muley Jatt information not valid

Only a small percentage of jaats in haryana are titled or rather mocked as 'muley jatts' and to the vast majority of jatts from punjab and sindh this term is non-existent hence i removed 'muley jatt' as it is used as an insult and is irrelevant to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.177.55.92 (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Almost total lack of citations

The various clans are not cited as being Jat clans. The almost complete lack of citations, flagged for several months, needs to be addressed. Uncited material will be removed as part of Wikipedia's policies and procedures. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:38, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Removal of the list of jats section

I have removed the list of Jats from the article for several reasons:

1. The list is a duplicate of the information contained in the linked articles in the section which preceded it
2. The list was almost entirely unreferenced
3. This article is not a list article anyway (and the lists exist elsewhere)

Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

JAT vs JATT

Jat are a tribe of daljit people and can be Muslim (Ones in Pakistan), Sikh (Chamar, tribe in Gujarat..etc), or Hindu Jatt is a caste and are only Sikh They both have different heritage and lineage, the Jatt originated from invaders and upper caste hindus, the Jat were breeders...etc and were labeled Sudra — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nursingxmajor (talk • contribs) 21:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

You said more or less the same a few days ago, here at Talk:Jat people. I replied to you and you have not bothered to take it any further. - Sitush (talk) 23:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Jats of Sindh article redired to this article

References for Jats of Sindh

Here I'shall provide the references for Jats of Sindh , and when there will be more references , I shall restore myself or request to restore this article as a full status of article. Here are some references:

1. JAts
2. History of Sindh
3. THE JATS OF SIND
4. Jats of Sindh Google search
5. Tribes of Sindh (Indus Valley)
6. Jats

Jogi 007 (talk) 12:57, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Recent revert

I have just reverted some huge additions for a variety of reasons. Those include that we do not use genetics studies in articles relating to castes and we do not include massive unsourced lists of subclans etc. Perhaps there was something worth saving in that 70k of additions but I also suspect it may have been copy/pasted from somewhere.

I have no objection to discussing it, obviously, but if anything goes in, it will need to be pruned and sourced. - Sitush (talk) 14:23, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Pakistani jatt.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2021

Removal of "Jaat" and possibly other ways to pronounce other than Jat or Jatt. This information is false and is not referenced. The reference is actually contrary to the information in the article. Addition of • Ghiasuddin Tughluq, Founder of the Tughluq dynasty, Delhi Sultanate. Haig, Wolseley (1922-07). "Five Questions in the History of the Tughluq Dynasty of Dihli". Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society. 54 (3): 319–372. doi:10.1017/s0035869x00053557. ISSN 1356-1863. Addition of origin of Jats which is not included in this. It is widely believed that the Jats descended hordes of Scythian nomads. These migrating groups travelled into modern day Punjab and conquered it from the natives.[5] Over time, they assimilated into the local population, and the Jats are a by-product of this. This view is backed by Sir Alexander Cunningham, the former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India who believed the Jats to be the Xanthii . This was a Scythian tribe who Cunnigham believed was likely to be the Zaths (Jats) of early Arab writers. He explains how they are found in the Punjab region from the early Christian period onwards, and that they had total control of the Indus valley by the 7th century. 80.189.68.174 (talk) 18:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:52, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Jats in Afghanistan

A section has recently been added to the article about the Jats in Afghanistan [1]. The problem is that Jats of Afghanistan is not an ethnic group but a social category, with some of the ethnic groups that fall within it likely originating in India, with others having a Central Asia origin. Even for the ones that may ultimately hail from the Punjab, there's no indication that they will necessarily be descendants of the Jat people – in the Baloch- (and likely Pashto-)speaking world, the word jat (and its derivatives) is used in a generic sense for any Indo-Aryan group.

The connection between the "Jats" of Afghanistan and the subject of this article appears to be down to an inference drawn from the passing mention of South Asian Jats in the Encyclopedia Iranica article, but that's at best WP:OR. The section should be removed unless we have reliable sources that explicitly link the Afghanistani groups with the Jats of the Punjab. – Uanfala (talk) 13:31, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Nope. The probably link with South Asian Jats has been shown, the practice of Islam has also been shown hence they are relevant to the article. We can only go off what the sources say. RuudVanClerk (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

If it is the case that the link with subcontinental Jats is questioned, then it can be mentioned but unfortunately it doesn’t warrant the complete removal of the section. Thanks! RuudVanClerk (talk) 14:02, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

RuudVanClerk, the tertiary sources like Encyclopaedia Iranica or even the more reputed ones like Encyclopædia Britannica aren't used for the contentious caste-related details. We obviously need scholarly sources from the subject experts. And in the case of Ghorbat/Jats of Afghanistan, the subject expert is the anthropologist Aparna Rao. In fact, I guess she is the only one to carry out field research on these Afghanistani disparate groups of a few thousand people. She has explicitly stated that they have nothing to do with the Jats of India and Pakistan. Other scholars have called them as well as connected them with the Gypsies/Roma. In fact, the experienced editors like Fowler&fowler have also clarified in the past that they are unrelated groups: [2]. Anyway, here's the quotation in which I have underlined the relevant part:

• Rao, Aparna (1992) [1991]. "Jat". In Hockings, Paul (ed.). Encyclopedia of World Cultures. Vol. III: South Asia. G. K. Hall & Co. p. 110. ISBN 978-0-8161-1812-0.

Some maintain that the sedentary farming Jat and the nomadic pastoral Jat are of entirely different origins; others believe that the two groups are of the same stock but that they developed different life-styles over the centuries. Neither the farmers nor the pastoralists are, however, to be confused with other distinct communities of peripatetic peddlers, artisans, and entertainers designated in Afghanistan by the blanket terms "Jat" or Jaṭ; the latter terms are considered pejorative, and they are rejected as ethnonyms by these peripatetic communities. In Pakistan also, among the Baluchi- and Pashto-speaking populations, the terms were, and to a certain extent still are, used to indicate contempt and lower social status.

In fact, the Ghorbats have been designated as 'Jats' for the first time in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. So this is a very recent name for them:

• Rao, Aparna (1995) [1994]. "Ghorbat". In Middleton, John; Rassam, Amal (eds.). Encyclopedia of World Cultures. Vol. IX: Africa and the Middle East. G. K. Hall & Co. p. 105. ISBN 978-0-8161-1815-1.

In prerevolutionary Afghanistan (i.e., prior to 1978) "Ghorbat" was the self-applied ethnonym of a predominantly itinerant and endogamous community of artisans and petty traders; nongroup members were, however, often unaware of this ethnonym and classified this population as "Jat" or, in Pashto-speaking areas of the country, as "Jaṭ." In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, in the border areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan, all those who were neither Pashtun, nor Baluch were contemptuously termed "Jaṭ" by members of these two communities. Even in the 1970s in Afghanistan, "Jat" and "Jaṭ" were pejorative terms and subsumed six distinct endogamous, itinerant communities, whose members offered goods and services for sale; the Ghorbat were one such community. The etymology of the term "Ghorbat" is uncertain, but it could derive from the Arabic/Persian words for "stranger," "exile," "the west," or even "poverty."

Other scholars of course connect them with Gypsies/Roma:

• Johnson, Thomas H.; Adamec, Ludwig W. (2021). Historical Dictionary of Afghanistan (5th ed.). Rowman & Littlefield. p. 258. ISBN 978-1-5381-4928-7.

JAT. The Jat are Roma-like groups of Sunni itinerants who call themselves Ghorbat (Travelers) and make a living as musicians, dancers, and fortune-tellers and therefore are considered to be of low status. Their women engage in door-to-door selling of small bazaar items. They belong to six different ethnic groups and speak various dialects, some of Iranian and others of Indian origin. Their number has been estimated at from 9,000 to 12,000, scattered all over the country.

• Doubleday, Veronica (2006). "The Frame Drum in the Middle East: Women, Musical Instruments, and Power". In Post, Jennifer C. (ed.). Ethnomusicology: A Contemporary Reader. Routledge. p. 123. ISBN 978-0-415-97203-1.

The Afghan Jat/Ghorbat groups have strong occupational links with Gypsies (see Sakata 2002, 79–83). Similar musician groups in north-western India, Pakistan, and Iran have a low or marginalised status and are variously said to be the ancestors of “European Gypsies” (Qureshi 2001, 919).

So please don't add the Ghorbat to this unrelated article. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:39, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

We should also clarify that the Jats here also not to be confused with the Jat of Balochistan and further west. That's hinted at in Aparna Rao's 1991 quote above (how in Balochi the term simply indicates lower social status), and some of the variety of groups can be gleaned from the sources listed at Jatki language. The point is also more explicitly made in some sources. For example:

• Rao, Aparna (1982). Les Ġorbat d'Afghanistan: aspects économiques d'un groupe itinérant "J̌at". Mémoire ; no 14. Paris: Éditions Recherche sur les civilisations. pp. 24–25. ISBN 978-2-86538-028-2.

D'après Wilber [1964], il faut bien distinguer entre les «Jatt» du Balučistān et les «Jat» du Panjāb: «The Jatts [..] are cultivators in north-central Baluchistan and have their own dialect, a variant of Sindhi; they are unrelated to the Jats of Punjab.»

It's a pity that we don't yet have coverage of the ethnic diversity of the region at either Balochistan or Balochistan, Pakistan. – Uanfala (talk) 15:33, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Zutt

Zutt is arabicised form of Jat. See Andre Wink references, for one. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:39, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

That is as per one author only. Kindly provide the source which calls them "Jat Muslims", not Zutts. Don't add their names before building a consensus here. Also you used the block period to make blanket revert. The block was for 3RR only. Don't push your POV in guide of ex parte blocks. Build consensus to add names, including those of Sammas and Soomras. CrashLandingNew (talk) 06:07, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Zutts are how Jats are mentioned in the Islamic history. For example:

• Andre Wink: When Arabs first entered Sindh...the two chief tribal groupings of the country they found were the Jats (Zutt) and the Mids...
• Jamal Malik: Jat (Arab. Zutt) were barely integrated into Hindu society[3]
• Derryl N. MacLean: ... Jat (Arabic, zutt, Persian, jattān ) and the Lōhanah (encompassing the castes of Lakhah, Sammah, and possibly Sahtah [ variation, Sa'tah][4]

Now that it's more than clear there's obvious academic consensus regarding that Zutt is just a variant of Jat, and that this obviously relates to Muslim Jats which were mentioned in Islmaic sources (as Jamal Malik and Andre Wink mention them in the context of Islamic history), I think it also answers the query regarding whether likes of Al-Hakim or Al-Awza'i should be included in the article. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

As for Migration pattern, see the main article on Jats, which (backed with reliable references) notes that: Originally pastoralists in the lower Indus river-valley of Sindh, Jats migrated north into the Punjab region in late medieval times, and subsequently into the Delhi Territory, northeastern Rajputana, and the western Gangetic Plain in the 17th and 18th centuries. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:27, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

As for reference to Moses, (the source also notes Zutt to be a variant of Jat), it makes clear that Jats were present in Arabia during lifetime of Muhammad (and hence the reference). Regardless, it's not directly relevant; if some other editor has objection over it, it can be removed.

As for mention of fighting along Ali, the source clearly mentions it, only if one had bothered to actually visit it. Anyways, here's the quote from page 127: The Kufan armies which came to Ali's support at the battle of the Camel, had, however, regiments of Zutt...who were led by their chief, Ali b. Danur.

As for the dynasties concerned, reliable sources mention them to be of Jat origins. And it's mentioned afterwards that it's disputed, so there's clearly not any problem I see here. Still if other editors have any objection over them, they can be removed. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Even as per your citation, Andre Wink doesn't use Zutts specifically for Jat Muslims.

The larger question is, can a person mentioned as Zutt be categorised as "Jat Muslims"? Zutt is a term used for a group of people in West Asia, whereas Jats, including Jat Muslims is a South Asian group of people. According to some authors the two might be related but that relation is not well established and the two remain completely different ethnic groups. CrashLandingNew (talk) 08:05, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Provide source that relation is "not well-established" and they are "completely different ethnic groups". Sutyarashi (talk) 05:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

The onus is on you to prove that a middle eastern/West Asian historical figure, referred to as "Zutt" belongs to the same group as a South Asian community. A person mentioned as Zutt doesn't necessarily mean he belongs to the same ethnic group as the Jats of South Asia. Jat Muslims of South Asia and Zutts who lived in West Asia are identified as two different ethnic groups.

Your own sources use the word "Zutt" for Jats, not Jats of one particular religion. "Zutt" doesn't mean "Jat Muslim" only. "Islamic history" doesn't talk about only Muslims. It's so illogical to say that a community mentioned in "Islamic history" has to be Muslim. "Zutt" is just an Arabic word for Jats of South Asia, irrespective of religion.

The migration pattern, which was added here, was again not only for Jat Muslims but for all the Jats, including Hindu Jats. Who migrated from Sindh to other parts of the Sub-continent including Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, Rajputana and Delhi. It is not specific to the topic of the page which is "Jat Muslims". CrashLandingNew (talk) 11:10, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

• There's academic consensus that Zutt and Jats are same. All Zutt Muslims can be added into the article, as it deals with "Muslim descendants of Jats". I've already complied with WP:ONUS by providing above sources.
• Jat Muslims migrated alongwith other Jats to northwest. This definitely constitutes part of their history, and should be included. Same goes for the dynasties. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:21, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Due to lack of consensus, we shall invite editors at :Dispute resolution noticeboard to join in the discussion. CrashLandingNew (talk) 11:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

If you've still any objections after such lengthy explanation, you should go to WP:DR. If talk page remains stale for more than than a week, I would restore the removed bits. Sutyarashi (talk) 16:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Your explanation has not been satisfactory and has been countered. How can you restore it? Building consensus is as much your job as it's for others. You can't restore it without consensus for that would be furthering the edit war in your part. Go and seek opinion to build consensus to add your material on the pages. CrashLandingNew (talk) 19:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Where you've countered my explanation above? I have complied by WP:ONUS by providing sources. If you still have any issues, and only you seem to have, then why don't go to WP:DR or for third opinion? Sutyarashi (talk) 07:08, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

See WP:ONUS. CrashLandingNew (talk) 19:53, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I've listed it for their opinion. Sutyarashi (talk) 07:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

References

For 3O

For any editor interested in providing third opinion, the specific dispute is about addition of certain content on which another has objections, although reliably cited. Sutyarashi (talk) 10:38, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 March 2024

Farrukhwahla (talk) 01:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Wahla is also a sub caste of jutt muslims in punjab which is prominent in north punjab, Pakistan.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 02:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)