Talk:Jodie Foster

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What the heck?[edit]

in 1991 she skipped an interview with the today show and later wrote an article about it in 1982? ms. foster has a time machine?

1982 article is about assassination attempt, not about Today Show cancellation. Reordered paragraph to clarify. HollywoodCowboy (talk) 19:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

No source for statement about her self-declaration[edit]

I see above a bunch of wikipedia editors cobbled together their original research about how Mrs. Foster self describes - writing "Foster has never explicitly identified with any particular sexual orientation" and citing [1]. Please review WP:OR, and WP:V. The source provided does not support the claim made. Please provide sources for possibly defamatory statements like "Foster has never explicitly identified with any particular sexual orientation." Hipocrite (talk) 21:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

PS: Beyond not supporting the statement made, it directly contradicts it - "...she publicly acknowledged being a lesbian before a worldwide audience." Hipocrite (talk) 21:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

  • The crux of the matter, as has been discussed here ad nauseum is that she has never "publicly acknowledged being a lesbian", whatever about the GayStarNews' interpretation of what she said - Alison 22:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Keyword: "explicitly" - Alison 22:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
{{fact}}. The sources I provided disagree. Please provide citations for your possibly defamatory content that she "has never explicitly identified with any particular sexual orientation." Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Hipocrite (talk) 23:16, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Hipocrite, the language we arrived at came through consensus. You've pointed out some good points here, so let's find a solution. For example, we could have something like this: "Though several outlets xxx, in Foster's speech she never explicitly used the terms lesbian or gay." - although I'm sure we could find other sources which say exactly what we're claiming, e.g. that Foster has never publically identified as lesbian.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
There are sources that note she did not specifically use the words, so feel free to write something accurate as opposed to something the four of you just made up. The NYTimes article, for instance, discusses the important, or lack thereof, of saying the words. However, stating "Foster has never publically identified as lesbian" is directly contradicted by sources, which state "she publicly acknowledged being a lesbian," "reveals she's gay," or "came out as gay." Hipocrite (talk) 23:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Everyone agrees that you can find thousands of sources that say she came out as a lesbian, but as the RFC above indicates, she hasn't self-identified as such, at least not in that speech. Perhaps it's too strong to say never, but we could certainly say "not in that speech", as sources discuss that.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Your RFC was poorly phrased and did not address the question at hand. At no point did I suggest saying "she is a lesbian." I suggested excluding the unsrouced, unsourcable statement that she "has never publicaly identified as lesbian." There are numerous sources which say she has, and so saying she has not, in wikipedia's voice is possibly defamatory, just as if we were to write "he has never publicaly identified as straight" in random biographies. Hipocrite (talk) 23:34, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Hold on, now. Someone above agreed that it could be said better. So why not just agree with them to say it better. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:48, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
I need to put the glue factory into my contacts. The issue is that we have conflicting information from sources. Most sources have interpreted Foster's words as saying she's lesbian, but we have not a single shred of evidence that she actually said that. All she's said is that she "came out". As discussed ad nauseum in the RfC and other sections, we cannot specify an identity label based on the systematically biased media (see Bisexual erasure). We do now know if Foster is lesbian, bi, pansexual, omnisexual, homoromatic, etc. We just know she's not straight. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:08, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
PS - that answer to your "who" is on the talk page. I chose to only list a couple examples in the ref. Do you want more or can I remove that silly tag? EvergreenFir (talk) 04:09, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I propose to replace

Though many news outlets[who?] have described Foster as lesbian or gay[1] and she acknowledged coming out in a speech at the 70th Golden Globe Awards,[2][3][4][5] she didn't use the words "gay" or "lesbian" in her speech.[6] Foster broke up with her long-time partner, movie producer Cydney Bernard, in 2008. They had been together since 1993.[7] Foster also thanked Mel Gibson as one of the people who "saved" her.[8] In April 2014, Foster married actress and photographer Alexandra Hedison.[9][10]

by:

In 2013, in a speech at the 70th Golden Globe Awards, Foster came out without revealing much of her private life apart from being single after her relationship with movie producer Cydney Bernard had ended.[2][3][4][5][6] The relation with Bernard started in 1993, and ended in 2008.[11][12] In April 2014, Foster married actress and photographer Alexandra Hedison.[13][14]

After which the OR tag can be removed.

Reason: let's not indulge in trivia too much. The speech was 6 (or was it 8?) minutes of her life. Not something to elaborate in such depth. The links to the media reports and the full transcript of the speech are provided in the references. But doesn't need more attention than what she actually wanted to reveal in connection to her private life.

Further, I don't think Wikipedia should report "the cyclone destroyed one village, but not two other villages in the same state" kind of news. Leave the non-event part to the press. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:42, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ For example, "Jodie Foster comes out with emotional tribute to her girlfriend of 14 years". 12 December 2007. Retrieved 12 May 2014.  and "Jodie Foster reveals she's gay, suggests she's retiring". 14 January 2013. Retrieved 12 May 2014. 
  2. ^ a b Christy Lemire (January 14, 2013). "Foster reveals she's gay, suggests she's retiring". Associated Press. Retrieved April 26, 2014. 
  3. ^ a b "Actress-director Jodie Foster publicly comes out as gay at Globes". United Press International. January 13, 2013. Retrieved January 14, 2013. 
  4. ^ a b "Jodie Foster's Golden Globes Speech: Full Transcript". ABC News. January 13, 2013. Retrieved January 14, 2013. 
  5. ^ a b Fischoff, Stuart (23 January 2013), Jodie Foster: To Come Out Lesbian Or Let Sleeping Rumors Lie, Psychology Today, retrieved 25 April 2014 
  6. ^ a b Hernandez, Greg (09 May 2014). "Ellen Page defends Jodie Foster’s much maligned coming out speech". Retrieved 12 May 2014.  Check date values in: |date= (help)
  7. ^ "Cydney Bernard: Who Is Jodie Foster's Former Partner?". The Huffington Post. January 14, 2013. 
  8. ^ Langley, William (January 20, 2013). "Jodie Foster: She’s come out as rather confused". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved January 25, 2013. 
  9. ^ Corriston, Michele (April 23, 2014). "Jodie Foster Is Married!". People.com. Retrieved April 23, 2014. 
  10. ^ "Actress Jodie Foster marries girlfriend". BBC News Online. 24 April 2014. 
  11. ^ "Cydney Bernard: Who Is Jodie Foster's Former Partner?". The Huffington Post. January 14, 2013. 
  12. ^ "Jodie Foster comes out with emotional tribute to her girlfriend of 14 years". 12 December 2007. Retrieved 12 May 2014. 
  13. ^ Corriston, Michele (April 23, 2014). "Jodie Foster Is Married!". People.com. Retrieved April 23, 2014. 
  14. ^ "Actress Jodie Foster marries girlfriend". BBC News Online. 24 April 2014. 

Elaborating on non-event issues I might give this example:

Duncan Grant made paintings for the RMS Queen Mary. The paintings were rejected,

  • For the article on the ship this is a non-event, so not mentioned there;
  • For the painter this was a turning point in his career, so mentioned in his biographical article.

Similary, in her coming out speech Foster did not mention anything about her stance on LGBT issues, nor on her personal flavour of LGBT-ness (she didn't even say she was not going to tell anything about it, she just said nothing about it):

  • For her biography a non-event (we don't base biographies on what the subjects "didn't" do);
  • Celebrities coming out without endorsing wider LGBT issues is a topic that might be treated in LGBT studies, no problem to name Foster as an example there, if backed up with sufficient reliable sources (of course, sources that demonstrate it is a LGBT topic and that Foster is a notable example). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:00, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Non-event in her biography? Not, really. No. Alanscottwalker. (talk) 10:03, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Tx for proving my point, neither of these two biographies mentions she didn't use the words "gay" or "lesbian" in her speech, nor any information formatted in a "she didn't..." or "what didn't happen..." non-event-like style (hence the OR being discussed here). As you will see that's the difference between the current paragraph and what I proposed (both versions quoted above): describe the coming out, avoid describing the non-events. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:44, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
This is delicate, since a number of sources just said "She came out as gay" or "She came out as lesbian", but other sources note that she only sorta came out, and didn't mention gay or lesbian. Thus, I think the clarification is important for the reader.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:07, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
None of the sources say "she didn't (whatever she didn't do or say)".
So we have no source for she didn't use the words (whatever words she didn't use) in her speech.
Nothing delicate about it, just no sources.
Apart from that, bad style for a biography. That's my point.
The version I proposed above says "...she came out..." (confirmed by all sources, and avoiding all discussions about the actual words she used, so no OR) --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
But we DO have sources Francis - for example, this one: [2] "Foster never said the word 'gay' or 'lesbian' in her speech giving fuel to those already critical of the two-time Oscar winner for not coming out earlier." There are plenty of other sources which discussed the ambivalence. Finally, I think calling it a "coming out" is also potentially wrong, again even if sources call it that, as Foster claims in her speech that she came out long ago.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:07, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
(ec) was just in the process of rephrasing, I realised that.
What I wanted to say:
No biography does "she didn't (whatever she didn't do or say)".
So, bad style for a biography. That's my point. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:31, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Further on Obi's last comment: WP:NOR 0.0: don't interpret primary sources, say what secondary sources have to report on them. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:18, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
NOR also says "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." That's why I've called for simply stating that she addressed her sexuality, and give the quote, and note that she mentioned her longtime partner who is female.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:21, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
So the version I proposed above is fine with you? You're also in favour of not elaborating on what she didn't address herself? --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Consensus is also about compromise, and we must realize Jodie Foster's sexuality has been a battleground and subject of discussion for literally years, so I think if we go a bit overboard in clarifying here what was and wasn't said, that is not untoward. Look at the huge disputes all over the wiki on whether she's put into LGBT categories or not. As far as the broader world is concerned, Foster is a lesbian, but she had a chance during her speech and yet never said it - instead she made a joke/admission "I am single", and then said that she had already come out long ago, and that she wasn't going to give a coming out speech. It seemed all very spur of the moment if you watch it, it seemed mostly ad-libbed, but if sources have misrepresented what she said (eg that which we can hear with our own ears) we should not perpetuate that even if the sources are all singing the same song. THis is why, for example, there was strong consensus to not call her a lesbian, nor to put her in lesbian categories, since while it may be obvious that she's not straight, it's not obvious what she does identify as. Hence, the desire by some here, which I completely understand, to highlight the fact that she didn't specify her sexuality. capturing this nuance is extremely tricky, but I'm confident we can get there.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:38, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Reception history, that's the word, not ==Personal life==. For all we know the Bush murder attempt had more significance on her personal life than any of the reports on her speech. So, definitely keep the "discussion in the media" out of the personal life section. See also what I wrote above regarding the reception in the LGBT community: non-event for Foster, *maybe* noteworthy in LGBT context.
As far as reception history is concerned in the Foster article, her achievements in the film industry are what this is all about (oscars and the like). The reception of her little speech is no more than a footnote. Literally, in the footnotes. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:04, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Change proposals to WP:COP#N relating to LGBT categorizations[edit]

WP:COP#N is that part of the Wikipedia:Categorization of people guideline that talks about categorizing biographies along lines of notability and definingness.

Several changes to this part of the WP:COP guideline have been proposed, having, for instance, an effect on categorization in LGBT (sub)categories. Input welcome!

Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people#Proposed language change to WP:COP#N

--Francis Schonken (talk) 07:07, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

BLPCAT[edit]

Seems to be getting ignored again, please stop adding LGBT cats to the article. Darkness Shines (talk) 04:58, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

@Binksternet: Reading the whole article, why there is no mention of "LGBT" ? OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 05:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Um, the RfC and other talk page discussion seems to be in favor of including LGBT cats. There's 2 there already. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:19, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
OccultZone There's mention of "coming out" and marrying someone of the same sex. LGBT umbrella applies. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
What was the outcome of three separate RFCs? I understand that multiple editors have added those categories but something has to be done about this recent content dispute. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 05:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Here are the RfCs and their outcomes:
The first two LGBT cats (LGBT actress and LGBT entertainers from the United States) were added immediately after the RfCs by ‎Binksternet. The most recent LGBT cat is what spurred this mini edit war and talk page section EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:31, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
For note, Darkness Shines did participate in the RfCs opposing all three. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:37, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
OccultZone is right: People at the RfC felt that a woman getting married to a woman fell under the LGBT umbrella without an explicit statement by Foster. Binksternet (talk) 05:51, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Adding section about Hinckley to 'Personal life' section?[edit]

Would anyone be against me moving the information about the Hinckley case to the "Personal life"-section as a subsection? The bit about her relationships, sexual orientation and children could be named something like "Relationships and family". My reasoning for this is that while the Hinckley case certainly was 'a bigger deal' than your 'ordinary' celebrity stalker case, it was still very much something that affected Foster's personal life rather than her career, and having an entire section dedicated just for that seems a little odd. Also, what are your opinions on maybe renaming the section? In my ear, "fan obsession" is too broad a term – you could call any teenaged fan of a pop star who plasters their room with their idol's pictures and screams at their gigs 'obsessed'. Given that we are here talking about very serious crimes and acts committed by severely mentally ill people rather than actual fans, I think another term would be more suitable. TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 11:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3

Contradiction?[edit]

Currently, in the Religious views section, we have this: "Foster is an atheist. She has stated she has "great respect for all religions" and spends "a lot of time studying divine texts, whether it's Eastern religion or Western religion." She and her children celebrate both Christmas and Hanukkah." " (I deleted the footnote markers.) To my mind this doesn't make sense. Someone like that would be described as an agnostic, as it doesn't make sense for an atheist to "[study] divine texts." And why celebrate Christmas and Hanukkah? __209.179.54.78 (talk) 03:35, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Read the Atheism article for the different aspects of atheism. And as this Google search shows, many atheists celebrate Christmas or other religious holidays. Also see this YouTube video ("Do Atheists Celebrate Christmas?") that turns up in that Google search. And, yes, some atheists debate these aspects among themselves and with religious people. Flyer22 (talk) 03:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Further, atheists on average know more about religion (and I assume thus have studied it more) than other religious groups. But if she self-identifies as atheist, then that's what we put in the article. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
I know people change the meaning of words (look at how nobody understands the correct use of the term "begs the question"), but in the old days atheists denied the existence of God. If they wavered on that they were agnostics. While I understand the notion of self declaration, calling yourself something doesn't necessarily make it so. To me the idea of an atheist (not an agnostic) studying religious texts is like Pat Robertson reading Why Darwin Is Completely Right And Genesis Completely Wrong. But thanks for responding. __209.179.13.208 (talk) 03:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
An atheist greatly respecting religions, studying religious texts and/or celebrating a religious holiday does not mean that the atheist believes in God or any deity. That's the point of my "03:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)" post above. Did you even bother reading the Atheism article, looking at sources that the Google search points to, and/or watching that YouTube video? Flyer22 (talk) 03:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)