Talk:Jubb Yussef (Joseph's Well)

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two big problems with this article....[edit]

Firstly; the article as it is now has tons of information, which is great.....However, there are two big problems:

Sourcing/original research... Quite a bit of the article seem to violate WP:OR. We really need to source all statements...
The "division of history" between this article and Jubb Yusuf. The "normal" procedure is to let all of the history that came in the Muslim period go into the 1948-depopulated -village. Compare Belvoir Fortress (Israel) and Kawkab al-Hawa. That means that a very large piece of the (sourced!) material in this article should be transferred to Jubb Yusuf. Regards, Huldra (talk) 20:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article still needs a zillion tons of work. Should we merge it with Jubb Yusuf? If not, why? Huldra (talk) 23:17, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the next discussion topic. As to a merger: the holy place and landmark came long before the village. Not clear if the 15th-century khan was the starting point for the village as well, but they seem to have been established at approximately the same time, which is consistent with other places and with Mamluk resettlement policies. The village dwindled once the well went dry, but the holy place kept its power of attraction for a while longer, as seen from the Indian plaque. All this being said, I'm not in favour of a merger, as there is too much material on each, with strongly diverging foci of interest in the respective articles: wider general history & archaeology (Holy Land, Greater Syria, Crusades, Mamluks) for the well & khan; Palestinian Arab national memory for the village. There are many examples of such separate treatment, Wadi Musa and Petra comes to my mind immediately. I have now added a link in the article about the holy site to the village article, and material from here to that section; the other way round it's been done long ago (wikilink to the holy site here in the lead), which I think is sufficient. They are linked, but separate. In this context: does anyone have access to the full text of the Adornes report? We now have smth along the lines of "the khan is a stone's throw away from the city." City? If Tiberias is meant, it doesn't help. If the village is meant, it indicates a certain separation. The so far unsourced text, most likely from Kohner (2006), mentions a Mamluk "station for collecting toll fees, manned by a military unit", and later the village as an Ottoman-period "settlement at this location, presumably non-military". So there is a distinction to be made between the garrison (they might have had their families with them, I don't know how the Mamluk and early Ottoman rules were), and the "presumably non-military" village. Arminden (talk) 06:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Access to sources: Kohner (is it the main source?), Adornes[edit]

Andrewfwilson, hi. I hope you are still interested in Wiki. Maybe you can help with offering the missing details for the much-cited source

Gabriel Kohner, The Ruins at Jubb Yussef, 2006 (English transl. Anat Efron),

which you introduced here 15 years ago. The norms have become much more strict since. I have tried to google for the Kohner text, but there is nothing out there. A million Wiki pages are quoting it (copy-paste effect), but there is no link to an online text, nor any details of a paper-based publication (book? article? publisher, location, ISBN,...), so it remains a mysterious, unidentifiable source much of this article is based on.

I googled for the name, and then I looked up the Hebrew article. Gabriel Kohner of Kibbutz Amiad seems to be the author, and the original publication is

Gabriel Kohner, Horvat Jubb Yusef (חורבת גוב יוסף), Ariel Publishing House, Jerusalem, 1995; Society for the Protection of Nature, 1987.

So what about the English edition? Also by Ariel? Any other details? Cheers, Arminden (talk) 20:53, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have access to Kohner, and I can't find the Adornes/Adorno report either, where there is talk about "a beautiful inn which was built not long ago, a stone's throw away from the city". "City" is too pompous for a tiny new village - does he refer to the village, or to Tiberias? Or is it mistranslated?

Without Kohner, most of the material, excellent and detailed as it is, remains unsourced and therefore unreliable. @Loew Galitz, Davidbena, and Gilabrand: hi, sorry to bother, maybe you would be interested in looking up Kohner, his book might be available online in Hebrew? Or maybe you know others who would? Cheers, Arminden (talk) 06:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see the Hebrew edition on sale. I can't find any mention of an English translation. Zero^talk 06:46, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The first 13 pages of the Hebrew edition can be read here. Zero^talk 06:48, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Arminden (talk) hi. I'm sorry it has taken me some time to get back to you. I have tried to get in touch with Anat Efron who did the translation, and still hope to hear from her. From memory, the translation wasn't published. She did it first to share with the many non-Israeli relatives of Imi, and I then used it to write the original Wikipedia page. I certainly understand the Wikipedia is much more rigorous now than in 2007. Andrew (talk) 16:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC) Andrew (talk) 16:08, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]