Talk:Kim Jong-il

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Former featured article candidate Kim Jong-il is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
May 14, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted
December 5, 2012 Good article nominee Not listed
January 20, 2013 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

Capitalization of "supreme leader". Building consensus.[edit]

So far, we have not systematically tried to build consensus on whether or not to capitalize "supreme leader", the official title of Kim Jong-il, as well as Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-un (the only discussion on the topic was inconclusive). Consequentially, the capitalization is changed and then reverted frequently. I would like to present some arguments against capitalization.

MOS:JOBTITLES (see also MOS:BIO#Occupation titles) says that titles are capitalized:

  1. "When followed by a person's name to form a title, i.e. when they can be considered to have become part of the name: President Nixon, not president Nixon"
  2. "When a title is used to refer to a specific and obvious person as a substitute for their name, e.g. the Queen, not the queen, referring to Elizabeth II"
  3. "When the correct formal title is treated as a proper name (e.g. King of France; it is correct to write Louis XVI was King of France but Louis XVI was the French king)"

My interpretation is that none of these cases apply here:

  1. "supreme leader", e.g. in an infobox, is not followed by the person's name. The current revisions of any of these articles don't include a case where the title is followed by the person's name.
  2. I have not found a case if substitution in any of the articles either (which could be along the lines of: 'The Supreme Leader reportedly enjoyed basketball'). I find it hard to believe such usage would be preferable to the more neutral "Kim Jong-il" or simply "Kim". MOS:SURNAME calls for generally using the surname and not titles.
  3. Consider this along with MOS:BIO#Occupation titles which says: "Standard or commonly used names of an office are treated as proper nouns (The British Prime Minister is David Cameron; Hirohito was Emperor of Japan; Louis XVI was King of France) [...] exceptions may apply for particular offices." Note that in the the official translation of the DPRK constitution or on KCNA, "supreme leader" is never capitalized. This leads me to conclude that the capitalized "Supreme Leader" is not the "correct formal title" MoS talks about. It may or may not be the "standard or commonly used name" for the office - but just as well it might be the "exception [that] may apply for particular offices".

My conclusion is that two of the three usages that call for capitalization do not apply to "supreme leader" the way it's been employed, but that the third one hangs on whose usage is considered "correct", "standard", or "common" and the tension between those uses. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 16:57, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

  • I don't think it should be capitalised.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree, the Manual of Style makes it clear enough that the title should not be capitalized in the infobox, nor should there be any need to do so in the article text. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:35, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
    • I noticed that the position of supreme leader was removed from the infoboxes of both Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il, but remains in the infobox of Kim Jong-un. It gives readers an easy way to navigate between supreme leaders without having to sort through multitudes of various government posts. Mr.Bob.298 (talk) 04:44, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Cult of personality[edit]

The citations from Aquariums of Pyongyang are questionable. Regarding the perception that Kim did not urinate or defecate, the source itself describes this as "childish", the personal notion of a child. The perception that Kim could control the weather is similar. These are not claims made by official propaganda. Their inclusion here is misleading.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Indeed, another one of the common citations that surfaces once in a while is the one about the double rainbow which appeared on the day of Kim Jong Il's birth. That very notorious quote could be traced back to a single practically unobtainable book[1] that feeble-mindedly claims it was in one of the Kim Jong Il biographies. Most of these claims also come from the defectors who have been proven multiple times to be unreliable. Ironically, majority of the defectors are among social classes that are the least taught about state propaganda. It would be nice to have a consensus on the explicitly banned magic powers that are not to be written on this article to save time, instead of pruning them once in a while... The whole fetishism on leaders' superhuman powers is really silly anyway, the Al-Assad family had taught their people much of this same crap (I think B.R. Myers has written briefly about this), and it is not cited in every second article about Syria. Ceosad (talk) 18:06, 17 November 2015 (UTC) Edit: I added a link to the book that was possibly the source. Ceosad (talk) 18:14, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
From the North Korea article:
Such reports are contested by North Korea researcher Brian R. Myers: "divine powers have never been attributed to either of the two Kims. In fact, the propaganda apparatus in Pyongyang has generally been careful not to make claims that run directly counter to citizens’ experience or common sense." He further explains that the state propaganda painted Kim Jong-il as someone whose expertise lay in military matters and that the famine of the 1990s was partially caused by natural disasters out of Kim Jong-il's control.[References omitted]
However, references to the double rainbow can be found in KCNA using the STALIN search engine, including an article, "Wonders of Nature" on 12 July, 1997. Unfortunately the original articles are not accessible at the moment. With regard to Aquariums by Kang Chol-hwan, the reference to Kim Jong Il seems anachronistic. It comes from a chapter entitled "A Happy Childhood in Pyongyang". This refers to a period before 1977 when Jong Il was virtually unheard of. The reference to weather control is not in the source. For all these reasons I'm deleting these references.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:50, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Ah yes, I know that B. R. Myers' view on the propaganda greatly differs from the mainstream viewpoint. @Jack Upland: By the way, STALIN search engine links do not work because the old page has been geoblocked by North Korea. It only accepts Japanese proxys or IPs. You can reach the original page and old news articles through Internet Archive as they still keep crawling the through their Japanese servers. It is just annoying to copy paste urls by hand from the STALIN search engine. Wonders of Nature Ceosad (talk) 06:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! It's things like that that make me think that Korean shamanism has more influence on North Korea than Confucianism. On this kind of issue, KCNA is a more reliable source than outside commentators, but of course that's original research. By the way, "defecate" turned up nothing. I don't think we can have a consensus on this issue. Unfortunately mainstream media and publishers will publish almost anything on North Korea (apart from DPRK propaganda, I guess).--Jack Upland (talk) 06:46, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Many of the mainstream media sources have been traced back to Hong Kongese yellow journalism. The claims that Jang Sung-taek was executed with starved dogs was literally said to have originated from the second least reliable tabloid newspaper in the city. Makes me wonder what was the least reliable tabloid... STALIN tends to find some fragmented weather control stories from KCNA archives, but it is not much help in these cases. Not many (if any) of them could be categorized as "claims", but I guess North Korean topics and propaganda are easy targets for WP:CHERRYPICKING. I was too unable to find anything helpful from KCNA this time. Ceosad (talk) 17:38, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2016[edit]

footnote 42 leads to a bad link: should be

CeleriacRustyChicken (talk) 10:50, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Fixed. Thank you for reporting, CeleriacRustyChicken. – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 11:00, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

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