Talk:Kim Jong-il

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Former featured article candidate Kim Jong-il is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
May 14, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted
December 5, 2012 Good article nominee Not listed
January 20, 2013 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

The golf thing[edit]

"Also an apparent golfer, North Korean state media reports that Kim routinely shot three or four holes-in-one per round."

  • The cited source is a humor piece.
  • Its reference to "state media" is by way of Twitter posts.
  • NKNews can find no original state media claim, and its in-country contacts cannot find anyone there who remembers hearing it.[1]
  • Officials at the golf course where it supposedly happened have called it a myth.[2]

The claim has no credibility whatsoever and should be removed. (talk) 07:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the claim from the article based on the points above. See also Bias in reporting on North Korea#Kim Jong-il's golf score. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 02:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2014[edit]

On the right side, he was the 2nd supreme leader, not the first. (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done: he was the first supreme leader. His father held a different title. G S Palmer (talkcontribs) 14:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2014[edit]

Religion: None (Atheism) TrueEditor12 (talk) 02:32, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 05:36, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2014[edit]

{Distinguish|Kim Yong-il|Kim Jong-pil|Kim Jong-il (athlete)}}

This is a Korean name; the family name is Kim.

{{Infobox officeholder |name = Kim Jong-il |native_name = 김정일 |native_name_lang = ko |image = Kim Jong il Portrait.jpg |image_size = |caption = Kim Jong-il's official portrait. |office1 = 1st Supreme Leader of North Korea |premier1 = Hong Song-nam
Pak Pong-ju
Kim Yong-il
Choe Yong-rim |term_start1 = 8 July 1994 |term_end1 = 17 December 2011[1] |predecessor1 = Kim Il-sung (as President)|successor1 = Kim Jong-un |office2 = General Secretary of the Workers' Party of Korea |term_start2 = 8 October 1997 |term_end2 = 17 December 2011 |predecessor2 = Kim Il-sung |successor2 = Position abolished
(proclaimed Eternal Party General Secretary after his death) |office6= Chairman of the Central Military Commission of the Workers' Party of Korea |deputy6 = Kim Jong-un
Ri Yong-ho |term_start6 = 8 October 1997 |term_end6 = 17 December 2011 |predecessor6 = Kim Il-sung |successor6 = Kim Jong-un |office7 = Head of the Organization and Guidance Department of the Workers' Party of Korea |leader7 = Kim Il-sung |term_start7 = February 1974 |term_end7 = 17 December 2011 |predecessor7 = Kim Yong-ju |successor7 = Unknown |birth_name=Yuri Irsenovich Kim |birth_date = (1941-02-16)16 February 1941
Vyatskoye, Russian SFSR, Soviet Union (Soviet records)
(1942-02-16)16 February 1942
Baekdu Mountain, Japanese Korea (North Korean biography)[a] |death_date = 17 December 2011(2011-12-17) (aged 70) |death_place = Pyongyang, Democratic People's Republic of Korea |resting_place= Kumsusan Palace of the Sun, Pyongyang, Democratic People's Republic of Korea |party = Workers' Party of Korea |spouse = Kim Young-sook (1974–2011) |partner = Song Hye-rim (1968–2002)
Ko Young-hee (1977–2004)
Kim Ok (2004–2011) |children = Kim Sul-song
Kim Jong-nam
Kim Jong-chul
Kim Jong-un
Kim Yo-jong[2] |alma_mater = Mangyongdae Revolutionary School
Kim Il-sung University |allegiance =  North Korea |religion = None (atheism) |branch = Korean People's Army |serviceyears = 1991–2011 |rank = Generalissimo rank insignia (North Korea).svg Taewonsu (대원수, roughly translated as Grand Marshal or Generalissimo) |commands = Supreme Commander |signature = Kim Jong-il Signature.png |footnotes = ^ North Korean biographies, which claim his birth date as 16 February 1942, are generally not considered to be factually reliable. See below. TrueEditor12 (talk) 02:38, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

For those wondering, this request adds the "religion" parameter. Stickee (talk) 08:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
The source appears to be dead - can you fix it please? --Mdann52talk to me! 15:04, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 16:32, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Capitalization of "supreme leader". Building consensus.[edit]

So far, we have not systematically tried to build consensus on whether or not to capitalize "supreme leader", the official title of Kim Jong-il, as well as Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-un (the only discussion on the topic was inconclusive). Consequentially, the capitalization is changed and then reverted frequently. I would like to present some arguments against capitalization.

MOS:JOBTITLES (see also MOS:BIO#Occupation titles) says that titles are capitalized:

  1. "When followed by a person's name to form a title, i.e. when they can be considered to have become part of the name: President Nixon, not president Nixon"
  2. "When a title is used to refer to a specific and obvious person as a substitute for their name, e.g. the Queen, not the queen, referring to Elizabeth II"
  3. "When the correct formal title is treated as a proper name (e.g. King of France; it is correct to write Louis XVI was King of France but Louis XVI was the French king)"

My interpretation is that none of these cases apply here:

  1. "supreme leader", e.g. in an infobox, is not followed by the person's name. The current revisions of any of these articles don't include a case where the title is followed by the person's name.
  2. I have not found a case if substitution in any of the articles either (which could be along the lines of: 'The Supreme Leader reportedly enjoyed basketball'). I find it hard to believe such usage would be preferable to the more neutral "Kim Jong-il" or simply "Kim". MOS:SURNAME calls for generally using the surname and not titles.
  3. Consider this along with MOS:BIO#Occupation titles which says: "Standard or commonly used names of an office are treated as proper nouns (The British Prime Minister is David Cameron; Hirohito was Emperor of Japan; Louis XVI was King of France) [...] exceptions may apply for particular offices." Note that in the the official translation of the DPRK constitution or on KCNA, "supreme leader" is never capitalized. This leads me to conclude that the capitalized "Supreme Leader" is not the "correct formal title" MoS talks about. It may or may not be the "standard or commonly used name" for the office - but just as well it might be the "exception [that] may apply for particular offices".

My conclusion is that two of the three usages that call for capitalization do not apply to "supreme leader" the way it's been employed, but that the third one hangs on whose usage is considered "correct", "standard", or "common" and the tension between those uses. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 16:57, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

  • I don't think it should be capitalised.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:23, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree, the Manual of Style makes it clear enough that the title should not be capitalized in the infobox, nor should there be any need to do so in the article text. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:35, 8 July 2015 (UTC)