Talk:Ko shogi

Early talk

Hey JT,

Since the English names for these pieces are still up in the air, it might be a good idea to include the kanji every time a piece is mentioned. Even for readers who know not a single character, that might help them identify a piece if the English name no longer matches. kwami 10:02, 2005 September 10 (UTC)

Looks like there's more to the game. The poison flame, for example, moves just like its unpromoted counterpart (like a copper general); what it gains is a fire demon's burn. Other pieces lose their promotion in certain circumstances. I'll try to get to this. kwami 10:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, unpromoted pieces verified. But these names are a real headache! We should put a note in that they are just ad hoc translations for the most part. kwami 11:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

All movements verified per Japanese wiki. I've asked a couple people for help in translating the names; so far no response. The translations on the English-language site in the references are completely off. kwami 01:47, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Portal

I linked to this in "Did you know" on the portal. Fg2 12:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Questions on movement

I'd love a little clarity on this. The free boar moves diagonally or horizontally as a range mover. This reference says it [= imperial base? kwami] moves like a bishop and a free boar, which one is it?

* Range: The imperial base can move any number of free intersections in the four diagonal directions.

   This is the move of the free boar in chu shogi.

Thanks for catching that, Anon Shumby. The imperial base moves in 6 directions, like the free boar. I've corrected the description. kwami 20:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You make many references to "cardinal" and "prime" directions. Please clarify. Does that mean 8 directions or orthogonal...?

Oops, 'cardinal' should be removed. I thought I had defined 'prime' as being 8 directions. There is no good word for it in English that I know of, but setting up a convention within the article makes it easier to talk about the pieces. kwami 21:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, do the bows/cannons/guns need to make the first move in order to shoot? In other words, are the permitted to stay in place and shoot turn after turn?

I don't know. Japanese Wikipedia doesn't say, and I don't know of any other source. I think that point is made in the article. I can only assume, and I would think that if there were special restrictions, the rules would make that clear. (After all, double-moving pieces such as the Lion and Hook mover don't have to take their second move.) So if I were playing, I'd assume that a piece can shoot in place unless told otherwise. kwami 21:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent! thank you so much! this game seems pretty difficult to approach strategically... have you played this?

No, I haven't. Don't know of anyone who has. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

---

Ok... couple more things came up while I was researching. There are many pieces that have immunity to the "guns" "bows" "chariots", etc... what about the promoted forms of "bow", etc.?

No. The restrictions drop when those pieces promote. You'll notice that the promoted pieces aren't mentioned in the description of the Base. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

And second, when does a 12 Mile Fog revert to a highway? Does the Immaculate Light have to end it's turn within 5 spaces or just at some point be within 5 spaces? (like igui...)

Not clear. The way I interpret it, igui would cause demotion. But that's not explicitly stated in Japanese wiki:

聖燈から八方向5路の所に五里霧があれば、それは高道に戻る。

If a 12 Mile Fog is at a place 5 steps in the 8 directions from an Immaculate Light, it reverts to to a Highway.

この駒から八方向の五路以内に敵の聖燈がいれば、高道に戻る。

If an enemy Immaculate Light is within 5 steps in the 8 directions from this piece, it reverts to a Highway.

Since the pieces don't really igui like a Lion, but simply move twice, I assume both moves count. This would mean that if a Light moves to within 5 spaces, and then moves away, that the Fog reverts; and that if a Fog moves within 5 spaces on its first move, it reverts immediately, and cannot take a second move. But that's reading a lot into a rather brief description. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help. Sorry for not mentioning my name. I've posted the last few questions. You've been very good about answering them.

-Shumby

No prob. Your questions help verify the article, and you've caught some stuff I need to change. Also, it's good to have a record of assumptions and unanswered questions here for future reference. kwami 00:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Japanese wiki does not list the archer cavalrymen among the pieces that cannot attack the Base, and in the piece descriptions does not list any attack restrictions. However, this could be an omission. (Yes, it's omitted twice, but both could be due to a single omission or misreading of the source used for the Japanese article.) In all other cases both the unpromoted and promoted pieces are restricted from harming the Base. Since the weapons stay the same, it would make sense for the archer cavalrymen to be restricted as well. So I'm going to leave the description as is, to preserve the possibility that this is an error, rather than trying to fix something I don't understand. kwami 00:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Another question for you... when a piece move says "may attack an adjacent intersection"... does that mean an orthogonal intersection or all 8 adjacent intersections. I only ask because this game has some roots in Go, where adjacent means only orthogonal. Thanks!!!!

All 8. This is a fundamental difference between chess and Go, though since we're playing on a Go board, I guess we should spell it out. Never even thought of that! kwami 23:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

more questions

QUESTION 1

If the General has been captured and the game continuing with the unpromoted Middle army and Banner, what happens when the Banner promotes? I can see three possibilities:

a) promotion of the Banner would be a suicide move if the player did not have a General or Governor;

b) the game would continue, but the opposing side could only win by capturing the Middle Army; capture of the promoted Banner (Roaming Assault) would NOT end the game even if the Middle army had not promoted;

c) the promoted Banner would act in this regard the same as the unpromoted Banner: whilst the Middle army remained unpromoted the opposing side can win by capturing the Banner whether in its promoted or unpromoted form;

-Which of these alternatives is correct?

Good question. The Japanese article only states that you can loose your general as long as you have your middle troop and banner, or else a governor. If I had to guess I would say (c), but that's only a guess. kwami

QUESTION 2

Similarly, do the pawns still have the ability to move forwards if the Drums promotes, and does capture of the promoted Drums stop forward movement by the pawns? (Posted by MJW)

Japanese wiki says that if the drum dies, the pawns can no longer move forward. It says nothing about what happens if the drum promotes or the promoted drum dies.

Good questions to keep in mind. Maybe the primary references answer these questions, but I don't have access to them. kwami 02:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

SIMILAR QUESTION

If the allied highway 高道 is killed, the roaming assault reverts to a banner and the thunderclap reverts to a drum.

What happens if the highway has promoted before it's killed?

I realize these questions all fall in the same category, but I think it's good to at least bring them to light, even if they cant be answered immediately.

Also...

According to the current translation... in order for the clerk to promote (in the PZ) it's advance and rear guards need to have entered the promotion zone... well, what if one dies? What if all of them die? does the clerk not promote unless it kills a command piece?

clarity seems to be the concensus here... is there any indication in the Japanese wiki of a source document?

歩総

Concerning some recent edits, the PU appears center and right in Japanese wiki and at History of Chess. (It appears they made a copy error in the html chart, but the two images agree with Japanese wikipedia.) kwami (talk) 19:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, according the charts (on history.chess.free.fr)it is not a Shield on the middle of 6th row but a 3rd Shield Unit. So they are only 6 Shields, not 7. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cazaux (talk • contribs) 21:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that was an error on our part. kwami (talk) 23:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cavalry

I have serious doubt on Igui-ability for Cavalry:

   * Double jump with double capture: The cavalry jumps once or twice as a horse soldier in a single turn, potentially capturing two pieces.
         o If it jumps twice, both jumps must be in the same orthogonal direction (both forwards, backwards, to the left, or to the right). That is, after the cavalry makes its first jump, it is restricted to only two landing squares for its second jump, similar to the restriction of a knight in other shogi variants. Or,
         o For its second jump, it may return to its starting point. This gives the cavalry a power of igui and passing a turn similar to that of the sumo wrestler.

If the 2nd jump has the same orthogonal direction, it is true that they are only two landing squares for its second jump. The starting point is not among those two possible landing square at 2nd jump. Then igui and passing a turn are not possible.

The "KoShogi revised b.txt" document available on Yahoo ShogiVar group, authored by Gregory Sears,L. Lynn Smith and Lex Kraaijeveld, clearly says: "It cannot return to its starting point during the move. " I suggest to correct this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cazaux (talk • contribs) 20:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

It's A or B, not B as an example of A. Japanese wiki explicitly allows igui: 八方向に桂馬飛びした後 (after jumping in one of the 8 directions), さらに縦横の同じ方向に桂馬飛びするか (either jump again in the same direction) 元の位置に戻れる (or return to the original location). kwami (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Taoist Priest/Spiritual Monk

Do Taoist Priest and Spiritual Monks have the same restrictions as bows regarding Shields, Shield Units, etc.?--TKR101010 (talk) 21:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Clerk, Advance/Rear Guards, Poison Flames

Also, regarding ... "When the clerk 記室 promotes to master at arms 軍師, the allied advance guard 前衛 and the rearguard 後衛 promote as well, while any enemy poison flame 毒火 dies. However, the clerk cannot promote by entering the promotion zone unless both the advance and rear guards have already entered the zone."

When the Clerk promotes, do all four Advanced/Rear Guards promote, or just the two that were in the promotional zone to allow the Clerk to promote? Likewise, if the enemy has promoted both of their Engineers, do both of the Poison Flames die, or just one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TKR101010 (talk • contribs) 05:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Japanese does not have singular nor plural forms for its nouns, so the Japanese text on wiki-ja does not actually say. Also, it does not specify the number of guards that must be in the promotion zone before the clerk. I can only assume from this that the four are being considered as a group, and have reworded the article to be appropriately vague.

記室が軍師に成ったとき、同時に前衛と後衛も成る。

When the Clerk promotes to a Master-at-Arms, at the same time the Advance and Rear Guards also promote.

ただし、記室は敵陣に入っても前衛と後衛の両方が敵陣に入っていなければ成れない。

However, even if the Clerk enters the enemy camp (promotion zone), if both (of) the Advance and Rear Guards have not entered the promotion zone, it doesn't promote. (両方 'both' might be referring to both sets of pieces, one of each, but could mean both of each. We need someone with better Japanese than myself.)

したがって、記室が敵陣に入って成れる時には、既に前衛と後衛は敵陣に入っているためこの特例の意味はあまりない。

Therefore, this special case hardly ever happens, of the Advance and Rear Guards having already entered the promotion zone when the Clerk promotes by entering the promotion zone.

これは記室が将・中軍・旗を取って成った場合に意味のあるルールである。

This is (therefore) a rule for the case when the Clerk promotes by taking a General/Middle Troop/Banner. (I assume the 帥 Governor is left out here because it only appears as a promoted piece.)

kwami (talk) 01:40, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I asked User talk:Oklahoman7. He's the most active editor on English wikipedia that identifies both as a native Japanese speaker and a shogi player. kwami (talk) 02:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

He's no longer active. I'll try someone else. — kwami (talk) 23:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

User:Hackfish said:

I've never played Ko-syogi. The quoted Japanese sentence is definitely ambiguous, so it could be interpreted as either. My intuition is that it's at least 1 前衛 and 1 後衛 that should be in the opponent side but it could also totally be that all four must be in the opponent side and get promoted.

I tried searching for a better documentation but everyone seems to be quoting the Wikipedia article! Sorry I couldn't be much of help here. Good luck!

--Hackfish (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

About the English name for the 五里霧

you said it was 12 mile fog, but 五 means 5, so its a 5-mile-fog Guocuozuoduo (talk) 00:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

But 里 doesn't mean mile, it means Li_(unit) (see Part 3 Other Cultures of that page) which in Japan (ri)

is equal to approximately 2.4 miles, thus 5 ri equals 12 miles.

At least that's my guess on the situation.TKR101010 (talk) 21:52, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The translation though kind of makes the gatling gun's inability to shoot the fog from five or fewer intersections away slightly opaque. With the knowledge that 12 miles = 5 ri, we can immediately understand: 1 intersection = 1 ri on the battlefield, and therefore the gun would be in the fog in such a position and unable to aim properly at it! Double sharp (talk) 04:04, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

The Japanese name 五里霧 is Five-Li Fog.  Five ri 五里 is supposed to mean five intersections, whether orthogonal or diagonal.  The translation Twelve-Mile Fog arises from taking the term ri 里 literally.  Because one Japanese ri 里 is 2.4 English miles, the literal equivalent of five Japanese ri 五里 is twelve English miles.  This silly translation ignores the geometry that if five orthogonal intersections were exactly twelve miles, then five diagonal intersections would be almost seventeen miles (16.97 miles), requiring literal translation to become Twelve-Mile-Orthogonal-Seventeen-Mile-Diagonal Fog.  I suggest we adopt the translation Five-Li Fog for 五里霧.  Howard McCay (talk) 08:17, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

 Done I have changed the translation of the piece to "five-li fog". Double sharp (talk) 12:46, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Promotions on the spot

Hi, it is written that step movers promote on the spot when they capture a sumo wrestler 力士, dragon ascending 龍驤, roaming assault 招揺 or thunderclap 霹靂. A cannon 砲 is a step mover, does it promote on the spot if it shoots such a piece? UseresuUK (talk) 22:47, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Would say yes; after all, isn't shooting a form of capture? Double sharp (talk) 14:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. I was asking because TKR101010 (talk) posted on BoardGameGeek a game he played (the list of the moves) where he shoots a sumo wrestler 力士 with a cannon 砲 without promoting it (still used as a cannon 砲 afterwards, with diagonal moves). Maybe an oversight? UseresuUK (talk) 15:10, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The rules of these large-board games often seem to assume a level of common sense that is not at all obvious to those of us who haven't seen them played. Basically, they're poorly written. If you take them to be literally true you get some odd and surely unintended consequences, but if you don't you can't answer many questions like this one. In many cases we're going to end up realizing that the answers are not found in the written rules and we'll simply have to invent them. — kwami (talk) 01:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Chariot of the Gods

The text says: "Limited range: The chariot of the gods can move up to five free intersections along one of the four ORTHOGONAL directions." But the diagram shows the four DIAGONAL directions. Which one is correct? Thanks. Cazaux (talk) 21:41, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

According to WP-ja, both diagram and description, it's orthogonal. Probably my mistake. — kwami (talk) 22:33, 10 August 2013 (UTC)