Talk:Lord Cameron

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Royalty and Nobility

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Primary Topic

It seems unlikely David Cameron is the primary topic, page statistics should be scrutinized, there is also long-term significance to think about. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:75CF:6459:DF97:EB60 (talk) 17:12, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, this is a disambiguation page. David Cameron's title hasn't even been announced yet. Blanking this page to create a redirect is vandalism and said user has been notified. UaMaol (talk) 19:53, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it qualifies as WP:VAND, which is intended to describe deliberate acts of sabotage, as opposed to ignorant ones, which are nonetheless covered under WP:DISRUPT if repeated. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:DCAD:9208:71FE:35AE (talk) 20:47, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Right now this page says "David Cameron, Baron Cameron" which is (1) not the title of the target, (2) unsourced, and (3) not found in his article. I can't find him being announced as "Baron Cameron" anywhere and it looks like speculation based on "Baroness Thatcher". The Independent says it may take weeks for the various things like letters patent and title selections to go through the process. I'm changing it back to "David Cameron". JM (talk) 22:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Participants were divided over whether David Cameron merited a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT or whether it would be WP:RECENTISM to adopt that redirect. Relisting the discussion did not break the impasse, leading me to find that no consensus emerged. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:22, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Cameron → Lord Cameron (disambiguation) – Redirect Lord Cameron to David Cameron per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT and GOV.UK. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 10:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support - OK, can get behind this one, at least. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This new title seems to have happened just this month. A Google Books search for Lord Cameron brings up a variety of topics, none of them David Cameron. Isn't this blatant WP:Recentism? --Joy (talk) 10:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You can't be suggesting there be books on DC's FS tenure just over two weeks in? Any other Lord Cameron from the last few hundred years will never be as notable or famous as a foreign secretary and prime minister. RECENTISM is a real issue, but not here. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Surely notability and fame need to be at least somewhat measurable in context. If the average English reader starts strongly associating this term with this person, then a primary redirect will be warranted; otherwise it isn't. Note average English reader, not the average person who closely follows British politics. --Joy (talk) 17:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what I'm saying: a prime minister and foreign secretary called "Lord Cameron" will be the most historically famous Lord Cameron in existence, measured against all of history. Given that DC is a foreign secretary and was the prime minister he won't be an unknown to most readers. Look at this graph. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about Lord Wilson? Not a primary redirect to Harold Wilson. Lord Home? Not a primary redirect to Alec Douglas-Home. Lord Stockton? Not a primary redirect to Harold Macmillan. Lord Avon? Not a primary redirect to Anthony Eden. Lord Attlee? Not a primary redirect to Clement Attlee. As I've said, this is pure recentism. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lord Carrington? A primary redirect to Peter Carington, 6th Baron Carrington. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 15:27, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a PM, only one peerage title by that name and he was notable under that name for many years. David Cameron, on the other hand, has only just been raised to the peerage and is far more notable under his actual name, under which he served as PM. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: reasonable expectation that David Cameron will be the primary topic given the other rather less famous people listed here. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 16:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not the primary topic for this term specifically. — Amakuru (talk) 10:40, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. While it seems a little premature to be definitively stating that David Cameron is the primary topic here, opposing would only delay the inevitable. Reliable sources are calling him "Lord Cameron" and he is far more prominent than any of the others on the dab page. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The absolute definition of WP:RECENTISM. There are plenty of Lord Camerons. The Marshal of the Royal Air Force and Chief of the Defence Staff, for instance, is just as notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not as notable as a prime minister and foreign secretary. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:35, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per @Necrothesp. David Cameron is still better known by his name rather than title and plenty of notable Lord Camerons. Killuminator (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a discussion about moving his article to Lord Cameron (which would definitely be premature), it's simply about whether he is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for that title. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:51, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Joy and Necrothesp, this is WP:RECENTISM. --Yorkporter (talk) 23:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton is by far the most prominent from this list. Richiepip (talk) 04:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

followup to move discussion

https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Lord_Cameron shows that in January '24, there were a total of 782 incoming views, and we could identify 461 outgoing clickstreams, of which 366 went to David, and four other topics has 20+. The latter is too close to the anonymization threshold of <10 to be safe to say it's accurate, but at 366 it's unlikely we're missing any source-destination pair, so that's ~80% of the identifiable ones but only ~47% of the total views. The link to David Cameron is #2 in the list, so it doesn't seem likely that moving it to #1 would substantially change this. Let's track the numbers for a couple more months. --Joy (talk) 16:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In February, the incoming views were at 491, and in March at 391.[1] In the clickstreams:

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:

Lord_Cameron David_Cameron link 269 (~54.8% / ~82%)
Lord_Cameron Ewen_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Dillington link 20
Lord_Cameron Lord_Fairfax_of_Cameron link 15
Lord_Cameron Kenneth_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Lochbroom link 13
Lord_Cameron Neil_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Balhousie link 11
total: 328

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:

Lord_Cameron David_Cameron link 142 (~36.3% / ~52%)
Lord_Cameron Donald_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Lochiel link 51
Lord_Cameron Ewen_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Dillington link 28
Lord_Cameron Kenneth_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Lochbroom link 24
Lord_Cameron Lord_Fairfax_of_Cameron link 14
Lord_Cameron Neil_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Balhousie link 13
total: 272

--Joy (talk) 13:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In April, with 550 views, clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv shows:

Lord_Cameron David_Cameron other 298 (~54.2% / ~70%)
Lord_Cameron Donald_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Lochiel other 52
Lord_Cameron Lord_Fairfax_of_Cameron other 20
Lord_Cameron Kenneth_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Lochbroom other 20
Lord_Cameron Neil_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Balhousie other 18
Lord_Cameron Ewen_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Dillington other 18
total: 426 to 6 identified destinations

--Joy (talk) 17:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In May, with 366 views, clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:

Lord_Cameron David_Cameron link 190 (~51.9% / ~83%)
Lord_Cameron Donald_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Lochiel link 27
Lord_Cameron Lord_Fairfax_of_Cameron link 12
total: 229 to 3 identified destinations

I also noticed that I didn't count incoming views from incoming redirects. The pattern seems largely the same, it just makes the percentages slightly lower.

All in all, it seems likely that interest in the article about David Cameron is driving roughly at least about two thirds of this new traffic. It's not impossible that the list confuses some people looking for him and they give up. It's also not impossible that some people learn something about the ambiguity of that title. This is exactly the kind of borderline territory where we're left with a bit of a conundrum as to how to reconcile long-term significance and usage. --Joy (talk) 20:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In June, with 250 views, clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv showed:

Lord_Cameron David_Cameron link 131 (~52.4% / ~82.9%)
Lord_Cameron Donald_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Lochiel link 16
Lord_Cameron Ewen_Cameron,_Baron_Cameron_of_Dillington link 11
total: 158 to 3 identified destinations

--Joy (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]