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Influence

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"Tobey's friend Elizabeth Bayley Willis showed his painting Bars and Flails [10] to Jackson Pollock in 1944. Pollock studied the painting closely and then painted Blue Poles, a painting that made history when, in 1973, the Australian government bought it for $2 million." Hmmm..... 'Blue Poles' wasn't painted until 1952. Surely Tobey influenced Pollock, but the direct influence - almost ripoff - implied here seems kind of sketchy... needs a ref, at the very least! In fact the whole section seems a bit too Pollocky. If no-one objects I might come back at some point, pare down the Jackson, and play up all the Northwest Schoolies Tobey was such a wonderful influence on. Tomseattle (talk) 01:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Tobey is a favorite of mine, as are many of the Northwest Schoolies, so if you have access to some refs, it would be great if you'd have time to work on this article. Any improvements are welcome. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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I intend to edit the external link section by removing duplicate links, removing the Britannica stub link, and adding links to Tobey’s artworks in the Seattle Public Library and the Northwest Museum of Art and Culture’ digital collections. If no one objects, I will add these next week, the week of October 21, 2013. SternaAlbifrons (talk) 21:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not an Abstract Expressionist painter.

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It is written that some work by Mark Tobey sometimes resembles Abstract Expressionism, however that does not qualify Tobey to be labeled an Abstract Expressionist painter. Also since “his motives for his compositions differ philosophically from most Abstract Expressionist painters", why would anyone want to list his Movement as Abstract Expressionism? I am unable to find one reliable reference as to his being an Abstract Expressionist painter. (Modernist recently added Galerie Jeanne Bucher, but that is not and does not does not contain a reliable reference.) Although Tobey “had a strong influence on others,” there are no references as to his being a major artist whose mature work defined American Abstract Expressionism. Unless someone can produce at least one reliable reference as to Toby being an Abstract Expressionist painter, it has to be deleted. But leaving that "sometimes his work resembles Abstract Expressionism" is acceptable, as the work of many artists resembles Abstract Expressionism (but they were not part of the movement). Sirswindon (talk) 23:19, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tobey was an important part of the Abstract expressionist movement, [1]...Modernist (talk) 23:37, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Modernist As you seem to claim to be the only expert on the subject, please provide a reliable reference as to his importance in the movement. His article clearly says “his motives for his compositions differ philosophically from most Abstract Expressionist painters" --- why are you unable to consider he does not meet the criteria of "Major" which is in the AE Article? Adding the Galerie Jeanne Bucher was your weak attempt to provide a reliable reference, but it did not hold water. Then in ART CYCLOPEDIA there is nothing there to substantiate he was an "important part of the AE movement." Please, where is an article written by a scholar in plain English that meets the criteria for being a "Major" which is in the WIKIPEDIA Article? You seem to be trying to make up your own rules, and that is not being a scholar; it is only being a dictator. Please be ready to accept that sometimes you are fallible. Sirswindon (talk) 13:07, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


I agree with position that Tobey should not be labeled or considered an "Abstract Expressionist" painter; It is most accurate, I believe, to categorize him as the leader of the Northwest School, as stated in the current Wikipedia article. However, I feel Tobey's influence, particularly on Jackson Pollack is under-stated. Perhaps "suppressed" would be a better term. In a private conversation with Clement Greenberg, at the end of Clement's career, I pressed Greenberg on this point and he agreed, that there was great pressure to obscure non-New York City influences, and as Clement exclaimed at the end of our conversation: "... and he was openly gay. You cannot underestimate the homophobia and the barriers to publication that would have created in 1955 ..." But this suppression is a situation in the literature on Tobey generally, and to go further in this direction would mean original source publication, which is not what Wikipedia is about. Further, the evidence of Tobey's influence is primarily in the visual evidence within the paintings: Pollack's immediate adoption after seeing Tobey's two shows at Willard of [1] an "overall" field of composition, and [2] layered markings [rather than "juxtaposed" markings prevalent in all abstract painting up to that time], which together produce a compositional context in which thrown or dripped paint makes visual sense in a way that is unprecedented. The combination of all three of these techniques is at the core of Pollack's singular innovation. This is an argument best carried out within the scope of the written criticism and literature on the subject and is not established sufficiently to be in Wikipedia. My humble opinion, of course. Socratesart (talk) 03:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • I know he was an American and I quickly made a correction. (Swindon)

Sirswindon (talk) 17:09, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • DROP THE STICK! Read this already - WP:STICK; Frankly I'm getting sick and tired of your bruised ego and ignorance on this subject. You should also read this: Marika Herskovic, American Abstract Expressionism of the 1950s An Illustrated Survey, (New York School Press, 2003.) ISBN 0-9677994-1-4. Chapter on Mark Tobey, pp 334-337.
      • WOW!!! For now I will obtain a copy of Herskovic to ascertain if it has been established that Tobey meets the criteria of "being a major artist whose mature work defined American Abstract Expressionism." I respect you for defending your "opinions" but not to be able to provide anything other than "IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT HE WAS AN ABSTRACT EXPRESSIONIST" seems to me not very scholarly. My ego is not bruised, yours maybe, because you are not able to show any scholarly references other than your opinion. I do thank you for directing me to do some enjoyable research, and I am looking forward to reading Herskovic, but I very much doubt if it will in fact establish that Tobey meets the criteria of "being a major artist whose mature work defined American Abstract Expressionism." Look, having met with a professor of Art History who went through the list of "Major" with me, I find it difficult accepting what seems to be just your opinion. Yes, I am open to learning; that is what life is all about. By the way, if I had access to your Talk, we could do this out of the public domain. Last, I don't mean to make you "sick and tired" I am attempting to have an open discussion. And I do hope others will enter it. Sirswindon (talk) 15:24, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is over, you're a game player - no you're not gonna find the word MAJOR on nearly everyone you are questioning because that's essentially irrelevant. Herscovic establishes that Tobey was an Abstract expressionist, that's what we are talking about. They were American abstract expressionists. So move on - the horse that you are beating is dead!!. As to your apparent problem with this: "being a major artist whose mature work defined American Abstract Expressionism." try reading this WP:UCS. Do you know how to read? The article clearly states Tobey was born in the USA; and You said - Then in ART CYCLOPEDIA it is written "American AE Painter" but he was not American gotta wonder - did you read the link to the Metropolitan Museum of Art? If you can read - then also read the exhibition history...and uh maybe uh realize that Tobey like Jackson Pollock pioneered paintings with all over composition...Modernist (talk) 15:34, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am not a game player and I know the word "MAJOR" will not be on any bios. I wrote that in the AAE article you or someone titled the list: "Major artists whose major work defined American Abstract Expressionism”and that just is not valid. I suggested a minor change that "some of" to come before "whose" and that could clarify what I see as a problem. You seem not to be able to have a reasonable discussion. You and I could find common ground if you were able to accept that I wish to make positive edits, based on valid references. You will noticed that I quickly made an edit to his not being American. Stop nit-picking and stick to the discussion. I have ordered the book you suggested and I want to find references as to: artists "whose major work defined American Abstract Expressionism." Is that asking too much, since this is how the list is introduced? If you want to modify the intro, be my guest. Is there no way for us to discuss this, just between the two of us? (That Toby like Pollock “pioneered paintings with all over composition” does not show that he defined AAE. Question: If Toby were alive today, would he say “I was part of defining AAE”?

Sirswindon (talk) 17:09, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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