Talk:Metal

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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Metal:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
  • Copyedit : entire article to be clearer to a non-chemist!
  • Expand : Section on metallurgy and applications/uses
  • Infobox : Develop a diagram of the periodic table, showing which are metals
  • Merge : Properties_and_uses_of_metals into this article
  • Other : Answer these questions: how many metals are there? How abundant are they in the world? What are the most commonly used metals? What are the most expensive/cheapest metals? What academic societies exist for metal research?

A suggestion on the division of information[edit]

I suggest that a mention of metal, semi-metal and non-metal classification of the elements be made in the first paragraph. However, I couldn't think up proper wording that didn't step on the definition in the second paragraph. My personal belief is that the 1st paragraph of any entry should be written at the 8th grade level so that it is useful to all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.100.46.254 (talk) 19:14, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that the general chemical and physical properties of metals, all metals appear here, along with a little historical perspective. I'm working on some historical perspective in metalworking but it's slow because I'm trying not to trash completely was is/was there. Additionally, there is way more there than belongs there.

I suggest that the commercial, physical, and engineering application of metals be done in metallurgy with a link from this article to that. I suggest that the article Properties_and_uses_of_metals would be a good fit in metallurgy under the topic of the top five commercially used metals. Begs (talk) 06:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that this nice graph be added to the physical melting points area to provide a quick reference visual.

Melting points

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mykiscool (talkcontribs) 19:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)










No edit war[edit]

I don't want to start an edit war, but some of the alkali metals can be cut with a knife, which means they are soft. The reason why usually high melting-points is necessary is mercury, rubidium, gallium, and cesium are all liquid at or near room temperature. While the concept of high MP or low MP differs, everyone on the planet would agree that these are low in comparison to the melting points of other metals (eg. tungsten). Mercury's melting point is below 0C. All people would agree that that is low.

What metal oxides are basic? Most metal oxides are completely inert. Al2O3, SiO2, TiO, etc. Metal hydroxides are basic (NaOH, KOH), sure, but that's an entirely different animal.

Eric 22:34, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I just want to add a little more about acidic/basic properties of metal oxides. Some metal oxides in their highest oxidation state are far not inert being extremely aggressive oxidizers (dangerous in handling!) and definitely acidic because they produce pH < 7 when mixed with water (or willingly soluble in alkali) e. g., CrO3, MoO3, WO3, V2O5, Mn2O7 unlike those of low oxidation state, which are neutral or even somewhat basic like TiO and PbO soluble in sulfuric acid. From another hand, TiO2 and Pb3O4 are soluble in molten NaOH. Thus, yes, basicity/acidity conception is hardly helpful for definition of what metals are, though nevertheless, it is true: most of metal oxides in their low oxidation states are basic or amphoteric. In general, the higher group number of an element in Periodic Table the less basic is the corresponding oxide. {Nick Moskalev, September 25, 2005}

The article does point out that the alkaline properties of metal oxides is a rule of thumb, not an absolute truth.

metal forming[edit]

How is metal processed in a way to punch a hole and then thread it,
with hole boed in the direction of how the hole was made?
Boring is machining with a rotary drill, punching is done with a non-movable bit and a press or hammer. The diffrence is that since Boring is done with less orthagonal stresses, the subsiquent threading operation, i.e. cutting of threads, is more likely to produce threads of uniform pitch, and less likely to deform under fatigue. On car parts, it is common practice to electroweld a nut so that the resulting thread anchor is much stronger. Go and ask a machinist. --67.174.157.126 (talk) 02:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


I don't know how to add my own post, but I would like to point out that not all metal is a good conductor of electricity. Lead, for example, is a very poor conductor. Thus it is not appropriate to have that description in the first definition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.131.133 (talk) 05:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

It is all relative - lead is a poor conductor among metals, yet it is much better than wood or glass. Materialscientist (talk) 05:13, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Precious metals - Plutonium and uranium[edit]

Regarding the statement: "Plutonium and uranium could also be considered precious metals." Why could plutonium and uranium be considered precious metals? That's doesn't appear to be explained in the article. -- Iotha 17:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

They are NOT precious metals. Precious metals are metals known since antiquity, used in jewery. l@@k it up. --67.174.157.126 (talk) 02:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC) does any one know anything about technology metals????. does copper rust ... that sort a thing ??????????

History/prehistory of metals?[edit]

In my personal opinion the article badly needs some short words at least about the history & prehistory of metals and how they were discovered. Anyone? -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 15:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't that go under metallurgy? Or perhaps this article needs summary sections on mining, ore, metallurgy and applications of metal? — RJH (talk) 22:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Stupid?[edit]

As soon as I saw the phrase "metal is stupid" at the very beginning of the article, I assumed I misread it. When I confirmed that it did indeed say "metal is stupid," I then assumed it was vandalism. However, I don't know anything about chemistry (See: Soviet education system) so if the word "stupid" has some other meaning in chemistry, I would have no way of knowing or refuting it. Could someone that actually has some amount of knowledge on this subject confirm whether this is or is not vandalism or a typo or what-have-you?MVMosin 01:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

  • LOL! Right now there's some nonsense about crap up there, I'd edit it out but it seems to be a recurring problem. Obviously, this article is a target for those who dislike the genre of music known as metal, and ought to be protected from edits by new and unregistered users. -AndromedaRoach 02:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC) EDIT: Yeah... there are currently continually ongoing edits and reversions, but the reversions still contain vandalism. -AndromedaRoach 02:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I reverted to the version before the vandalism. I hope it's the correct one, since it was the last revert before today's vandals. --esanchez, Camp Lazlo fan! 02:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Electron gas?[edit]

The line

The electrical and thermal conductivity of metals originate from the fact that in the metallic bond the outer electrons of the metal atoms form a gas of nearly free electrons

I think it is clear what is meant here, but I think the way it is stated is kind of clumsy. Maybe a 'cloud' of electrons might be a better way to say it?

People unclear on the concept. a Gas is a free floating arrangment of atoms, distinct from a solid. According to the shell model of the atom, they share co-vailient electrons, that are shared (thermal) and flow( electrical) . Cloud of electrons is a diffrent model. I dont object to using either model, I just object to mixing metaphores from diffrent models. Tunneling (Q.E.D, and Quantum models) are a diffrent electrical property. --67.174.157.126 (talk) 02:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Molecular metals[edit]

Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a definition of "molecular metals" anywhere. What are these? Are they different from just plain metals? A subset? It would be great if someone who knows would add information about molecular metals and what they are as part of this metals article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.119.195.22 (talk) 21:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Diagram[edit]

Surely this article needs a diagram of the periodic table at the top to show which are and are not metals, rather than a description of same? IceDragon64 (talk) 14:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Surely, you are collapsing the chemical classification, with the material property, and leave the mention of the music out of it. The Musical discussion of Metal is, well really beyond the comprension of the author(s) of the Metal(music) article. It did get a long and loud laugh from Ripper Owens, and Rob Halford has yet to comment.
This artcle has been said to be in need of a total rewrite.
and btw, Precious metals refer to materials used since antiquity in jewelry. --~~~~ Insert formula here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.157.126 (talk) 02:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Merging[edit]

I support the merge of this page with Properties and uses of metals. And also agree that a periodic table would be a good idea. I am a lemon (talk) 02:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Support the merge too. --Rajah (talk) 20:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I support the mearging of the Properties of metals, but not the uses of metals. That is much too large a topic....--67.174.157.126 (talk) 02:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect percentages[edit]

"The Sun and the Milky Way Galaxy are composed of roughly 70% hydrogen, 30% helium, and 2% "metals" by mass.[1]" <-- That can't possibly be right, where's this extra 2% coming from?. --Rajah (talk) 20:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Roughy its 3/4 Hydrogen 1/4 Helium and a pinch of the rest...if you want more precise numbers...
[1]:

Hydrogen and helium are estimated to make up roughly 74% and 24% of all baryonic matter in the universe respectively. Despite comprising only a very small fraction of the universe, the remaining "heavy elements" can greatly influence astronomical phenomena. Only about 2% (by mass) of the Milky Way galaxy's disk is composed of heavy elements.

i.e. 74+24+2=100, but

In astronomy, a "metal" is any element other than hydrogen or helium.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.157.126 (talk) 11:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll take this one.[edit]

I've got a few books regarding metals/chemistry from the library, and will be adding references/content over the course of the next n weeks, where n = randInt(0,52). Ziggy Sawdust 17:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Periodic table[edit]

I think there should be a picture of the periodic table more prominently in this article. There is a clear, interesting & very visible difference between metals & not-metals when you look at the periodic table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.146.148 (talk) 22:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I second this, in fact I was just coming here to say this! There must be a usable graphic of the P. Table with a nice black zigzag line seperating metals from non- metals. IceDragon64 (talk) 22:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Would this do?

Daniel (talk) 11:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Would this do?


I have created a new metal-nonmetal periodic table.[edit]

Group # 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Period
1
1
H
2
He
2 3
Li
4
Be

5
B
6
C
7
N
8
O
9
F
10
Ne
3 11
Na
12
Mg

13
Al
14
Si
15
P
16
S
17
Cl
18
Ar
4 19
K
20
Ca
21
Sc
22
Ti
23
V
24
Cr
25
Mn
26
Fe
27
Co
28
Ni
29
Cu
30
Zn
31
Ga
32
Ge
33
As
34
Se
35
Br
36
Kr
5 37
Rb
38
Sr
39
Y
40
Zr
41
Nb
42
Mo
43
Tc
44
Ru
45
Rh
46
Pd
47
Ag
48
Cd
49
In
50
Sn
51
Sb
52
Te
53
I
54
Xe
6 55
Cs
56
Ba
71
Lu
72
Hf
73
Ta
74
W
75
Re
76
Os
77
Ir
78
Pt
79
Au
80
Hg
81
Tl
82
Pb
83
Bi
84
Po
85
At
86
Rn
7 87
Fr
88
Ra
103
Lr
104
Rf
105
Db
106
Sg
107
Bh
108
Hs
109
Mt
110
Ds
111
Rg
112
Cn

* Lanthanides 57
La
58
Ce
59
Pr
60
Nd
61
Pm
62
Sm
63
Eu
64
Gd
65
Tb
66
Dy
67
Ho
68
Er
69
Tm
70
Yb

** Actinides 89
Ac
90
Th
91
Pa
92
U
93
Np
94
Pu
95
Am
96
Cm
97
Bk
98
Cf
99
Es
100
Fm
101
Md
102
No

Element categories in the periodic table

Metals Other nonmetals

Unsigned - [2] 05:09, 3 December 2010 User:Wd930

Note: The colors used for this table have changed. See {{periodic table (metals and nonmetals)}}. -DePiep (talk) 14:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Inaccuracies[edit]

I have added a disputed label because there is a bunch of inaccuracies. Jcwf (talk) 02:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Band structures[edit]

Metals do not necessarily have 'overlapping' conduction and valence bands. (In fact that is the definition of a semimetal, not a metal). It is sufficient to have some incompletely filled band. I.e. the Fermi level needs to fall inside a band rather than in a gap between bands. (One might add that the band has to be broad enough that it overcomes any localizing potentials, but this is a refinement related to Hubbard's U etc.) Jcwf (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Off course. Fixed.NIMSoffice (talk) 04:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this really true?[edit]

..Covalently bonded crystals can only be deformed by breaking the bonds between atoms, thereby resulting in fragmentation of the crystal..

If it is all diamond processing should be forbidden! Jcwf (talk) 02:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Ha? Nergaal (talk) 10:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

It all depends whether deformation is reversible or irreversible. Off course you can bend diamond without breaking bonds, but it will relax upon release. NIMSoffice (talk) 04:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Boiling points[edit]

Alkali metals have the lowest boiling points? Really? How about mercury? Jcwf (talk) 02:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

And gallium... anyways, it probably meant on average. Nergaal (talk) 10:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The free-electron model[edit]

There is really only one element for which this model is more or less accurate (cesium). For all others the fermi surface is far from spherical. Nevertheless a metal like silver is a better metal than cesium. How is the free-electron model explaining that??? Jcwf (talk) 02:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Define better! While silver has excellent DC conductivity, the alkali metals generally (and especially the heavier ones) have lower interband transitions making them better optically. Since interband transitions are a perturbation to the free-electron model, alkalis are arguably the most "metallic" metals.

Thermal conductivity[edit]

Thermal conductivity does not even primarily result from metallic bonding, see there for discussion. Jcwf (talk) 02:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Definition[edit]

Yes check.svg Done

The metals of the periodic table are formally defined as Lithium, beryllium, sodium, magnesium, aluminium, potassium, calcium, scandium, titanium, vanadium, chromium, manganese, iron, cobalt, nickel, copper, zinc, gallium, rubidium, strontium, yttrium, zirconium, niobium, molybdenum, technetium, ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, silver, cadmium, indium, tin, antimony, caesium, barium, lanthanum, hafnium, tantalum, tungsten, rhenium, osmium, iridium, platinum, gold, mercury, thallium, lead, and bismuth.

Really? So praseodymium and uranium are not metals?

Jcwf (talk) 02:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and correct it. Nergaal (talk) 11:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Metalloid[edit]

The elements stated as metalloid on this page (the periodic table, just under "Definition") and this one: Metalloid are not the same. Mandor (talk) 14:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Metals Missing[edit]

Yes check.svg Done

Why are Zinc, Molybdenum, Cadmium, and Mercury missing from the box on the right side of the page? They are all transition metals.Hangwire (talk) 23:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

added to the top 122.111.14.145 (talk) 12:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph[edit]

In the opening paragraph

In chemistry, a metal (Greek: Metallo, Μέταλλο) is a chemical element whose atoms readily lose electrons to form positive ions (cations), and form metallic bonds between other metal atoms and ionic bonds between nonmetal atoms.[1]

Should it not use "with" rather than "between"? "Between" seems to indicate the bonds are between two other atoms. Rojomoke (talk) 15:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, makes sense to me. Go for it! Wizard191 (talk) 22:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It was self-contradictory (mentioning non-metal atoms within definition of a metal). Brushed up, but I'll look the Classics on proper definition.NIMSoffice (talk) 04:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Definition unclear[edit]

Metals are sometimes described as a lattice of positive ions surrounded by a cloud of delocalized electrons[clarification needed].

Too technical, kind of, by itself. I think the definition could be clarified by something practical like (just an example):

Metals are chemical elements or compounds, that are characterized by:
high electrical [conductivity-something]
high temperature [conductivity-something]
[insertme more]
due to the aforementioned [lattice-so-so].

The intro almost looks like a circular definition, defining metals as something that forms metallic bonds. I think the intro should elaborate more, so that it becomes clear that metallic bonds can be defined without regard to the quality of metals. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 11:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Optical properties[edit]

Is it worth saying some more about the optical properties of metals here? If you asked someone to describe a metal, they'll usually talk about its "shininess". I think this article should give a simple overview, explaining why mobile carriers in a metal have high reflectivity at visible wavelengths, and a brief look at exceptions due to interband transitions. If you agree that it would be useful, I'll add a new section (maybe under "physical properties"). Papa November (talk) 09:08, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Noble Metals[edit]

In the definition of noble metals it states that "Noble metals are metals that are resistant to corrosion or oxidation," Later silver is listed as a Noble metal, however silver does indeed oxidize. I suppose a definition of what resistant means in chemical terms would be useful. That or add Aluminum to the list, because if I remember my materials while it does oxidize it's thin oxide layer is very tenacious so it prevents the oxidation from reaching beyond the surface, unlike iron which with rust through. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.54.97.45 (talk) 04:56, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no simple way to quantify oxidation, and as I understand it, noble metals are selected by their electrochemical potential. Materialscientist (talk) 05:04, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Metallic chemicals[edit]

Bronze, brass, steel, and a few more are metallic chemicals. Right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wd930 (talkcontribs) 04:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

they are indeed based on metals, but they are alloys. Materialscientist (talk) 04:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Sp41700, 17 April 2011[edit]

{{edit semi-protected}} in the precious metal second paragraph the link to the jewellery page is spelt jewelry. I would like the link text changed so the link has the correct spelling. Sp41700 (talk) 12:39, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The jewellery article is written in UK and this one in US English. There is no need to change that. Materialscientist (talk) 12:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Photo questionable[edit]

The lead photo currently shows a display of eight elements, five of which are metals, captioned merely as "Some metal pieces" - which implies that carbon, phosphorus, and silicon are metals. They aren't. Can we find a more appropriate picture? 210.155.216.178 (talk) 21:29, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

... what?[edit]

I would have thought such a obvious article as this would have some kind section on the the relevent history... but it doesn't? Robo37 (talk) 13:32, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

list of 3 non oxidizing metals is complete?[edit]

the phrase 'Others, like palladium, platinum and gold, do not react with the atmosphere at all. ' implies there are more in the list of 3. what are the rest? Clf99 (talk) 01:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Metallic hydrogen[edit]

Hydrogen is a liquid metal when compressed. It makes the strong magnetic field of Jupiter. I am pretty sure other elements can change state, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ticklewickleukulele (talkcontribs) 04:00, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

A Jumble of Information[edit]

While trying to get an overview of metals, especially alloys, for a non Wiki article, I arrived at the 'Metal' page. I couldn't make head nor tail of it. All the hard work has been done and most of the facts are there but, unfortunately, they are jumbled and misleading: "metals are solid", "Visible material in the universe" and so on.

I hate all the notices overpowering the Wiki pages, mostly demanding 'more references'. I'm reluctant to place an 'inaccurate and needs input from an expert' notice, followed by, 'needs copy writer' notice. But perhaps the consensus, after consideration, would think this the best approach. The other comments above on this talk page seem to indicate so.

I always feel really guilty messing with other peoples work, especially the young and inexperienced, who often sweat their guts out writing a Wiki article about a subject ín which they are probably an expert, but haven't quite got the hang of technical writing yet. I was in that position myself, but eons before PCs, the internet, Wiki, and man-made global warming.

If you do sweat over presenting your specialist subject, don't be like me and leave it for years. An old boy at our technical publications department put me straight after I had submitted a rambling spaghetti. Once you learn the basics, writing becomes simple, quick, and even enjoyable. From then on, you will develop as you write. If you're bright enough to learn about metals, you could pick up the basics of writing in a few lunch hours. You would think they would be taught at school as a core subject. Enough rambling!

If this is your article or you have contributed greatly... sorry. Please don't give up as I have; keep supplying core material to Wiki. CPES (talk) 15:25, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Liquid Metal[edit]

There is also the possibility that metals exist in a liquid state, for example mercury at standard conditions. However, this doesn't seem to be very well indicated in the sections concerning the physical properties of metals. They can, for example, also be electrically conductive even when in the liquid state. Is there an easy way to add some form of clarification?

Tschoppi (talk) 13:09, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Table[edit]

Should be table of all metals115.241.241.2d (talk) 06:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)