Talk:Newton Hall, Northumberland

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Requested move 9 August 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move using the moves in the "Summary?" section, therefore, these moves have been carried out. (closed by non-admin page mover) Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 20:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– This Newton Hall is in the parish of Newton-on-the-Moor and Swarland however there is also a village and former CP which is now in Bywell parish. A better DAB might be Newton Hall (country house) to avoid tautological disambiguation. Newton Hall should become a DAB and there is also Newton Hall, Mobberley. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:52, 9 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:42, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Gentle support: (Writing from the perspective of knowing a little about the Durham estate and former country-house after which it is named.) There are also several "Newton Hall" places and buildings elsewhere (not just Northumberland and Mobberley). There is nothing about the Durham place that makes it stand out as globally primary or meriting of such a mark of uniqueness. (Contrast, say, "New York", where the USA city is clearly more primary to the village on Tyneside; or "Quebec" and its smaller Co. Durham equivalent.) So renaming "Newton Hall" to "Newton Hall, Durham" maintains that level playing field, and making "Newton Hall" the DAB page seems sensible. The alternative of leaving the Durham place holding that primary name, and then having "Newton Hall (disambiguation)" seems less satisfactory. Feline Hymnic (talk) 10:13, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If there was also a county house in Durham then we shouldn't use Newton Hall (country house) and probably use the first suggestion for the Newton-on-the-Moor and Swarland one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no historian nor local geographer. But the country house in Durham, after which the current "Newton Hall" estate is named, is long since demolished. I doubt it will ever warrant a WP article of its own. Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There could be other country houses around the country with this name as well, I'd prefer the "Newton Hall, Newton-on-the-Moor and Swarland" as its not ambiguous, even if not ideal. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:29, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Another note. I see that there seems to be a commercial enterprise called Newton Hall (wedding venue, etc.) somewhere in Northumberland. (I have no idea whether or not this is related to the "Newton Hall, Northumberland" place.) But WP is absolutely not a place for commercial advertising; so we must not allow that to influence this discussion here. WP:COI would become relevant. Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That appears to be also this (Newton-on-the-Moor and Swarland) one, the country house appears to be being used as a luxury hotel. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:29, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Gentle opposition to renaming "Newton Hall, Northumberland". The article describes the hall (building). The existing page title seems neatly to match that. Why change it? Changing its name to "Newton Hall, Newton-on-the-Moor and Swarland" (which is what the header on the article suggests) seems not to make any sense. That long name is about a civil parish (beloved of local government officials). By all means have such an article to describe the parish. But the existing "Newton Hall, Northumberland" title for the existing building seems fine. Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:33, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The parish is being suggested as disambiguation, from the village and former CP also in Northumberland. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:37, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overall observation: I'm heading towards:

  • "Newton Hall" be converted into a DAB, which would cover anything and everything worldwide (not just UK) which might relate to that title.
  • The current Durham-NH article being renamed to "Newton Hall, Durham"
  • The existing "Newton Hall, Northumberland" (describing a historic country house) remaining as is, unless, regardless of other considerations, there is a better title, but being careful not to let a current commercial enterprise influence the decision for marketing purposes
  • Possible new articles for Northumberland places, e.g. "Newton Hall, Newton-on-the-Moor and Swarland" (although that does seem an indigestible mouthful).
  • Don't necessarily create civil parish articles with long names. Very few WP readers come here for that; rather, they come from perspectives of history, geography, tourism, etc.

Within Northumberland, if there are various "Newton this-or-that" villages, parishes, etc., let them have their own articles. Or, as you suggest, let "Newton Hall, Northumberland" become a DAB across them. Although if there is already a global "Newton Hall" this seems superfluous; rather just use a 'for other uses' at the top of each article.

I think we are more or less agreeing! I don't know nearly enough about the Northumberland entities; my suggestions about them are simply WP-related possible thoughts for consideration in the mix...!

Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:56, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • This article is about the one in Newton-on-the-Moor and Swarland, this is just a proposal to rename it. "Newton Hall, Northumberland" would just redirect to the "Newton Hall" DAB page per WP:INCDAB. A new article should be created on the on in Bywell parish. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:31, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose first, support second. The village of Newton Hall actually seems to be more commonly referred to simply as Newton ([1]) and we don't have an article on it anyway, so a hatnote would suffice. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    There is a settlement called "Newton" at NZ0364 and "Newton Hall" at NZ0365 [2]. There was a CP called "Newton" as well as the "Newton Hall" one [3]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:36, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It would appear these are actually alternative names for the same village and the same former parish. See [4], which describes it as Newton in the modern text but as Newton-Hall in the quote. Newton Hall appears to be a hamlet within the former parish of Newton, the location of its church. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:00, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks oddly that Newton Hall CP didn't contain the place where the church is, but actually Newton did. Both CPs were merged into Bywell on the 1st of April 1955 [5] (click the relationships and changes). The quote on the "main" page refers to Newton Hall but Newton was also a township. This is also the case with Easington even though both Easington and Easington Grange were both townships. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:13, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Firm oppose on the house, much better as it is. Support "Newton Hall, Durham" for the other. Johnbod (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Summary?[edit]

I think we are converging on:

Is that a fair summary? Can we go ahead and arrange for this to be done? Feline Hymnic (talk) 15:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that there are still 2 (notable) Newton Halls in Northumberland. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:10, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I'd missed that. What, in layman's terms, are the two Northumberland places?

For instance that in Durham is primarily, for the typical lay person, a suburb of Durham. It just happens to take its name from an earlier hall, but that is, for the typical lay person, mere subsidiary detail. So the Durham article is, in a less-than-on-line summary, a residential suburb of Durham.

In Northumberland, one of the NHs seems to be something near Corbridge. What would be its less-than one-line summary? (Historic Hall? Village? Etc.) The other seems to be something near Embleton. What would be its less-than-one-line summary? (Historic Hall? Village? Etc.)

Another view: what are their nearest postal towns? Could the articles be something like "Newton Hall, Corbridge" and "Newton Hall, Embleton"? (If the postal towns are, say, Hexham and/or Alnwick, then use those .)

Let's specifically avoid getting bogged down in detail. We want a simple, short title, easily graspable by the typical lay person. Feline Hymnic (talk) 17:53, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We don't worry about things that might have articles, only about things that do. Johnbod (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The other one is clearly notable as it was a civil parish, Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic when a disambiguation page lists only one existing article by that name only states that the red link can't be primary. WP:UKPLACE specifies that disambiguation should never be to post town but maybe we could ignore that there. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:24, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So taking Johnbod's point (above), we can have:

(And if, at some hypothetical later stage, a second Northumberland NH article is needed, then that specific intra-Northumberland issue can be re-visited.) OK? Feline Hymnic (talk) 09:57, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with this. Johnbod (talk) 11:52, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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