Talk:Old Catholic Church

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Article is false[edit]

The "Churches" here who are calling themselves "Old Catholic" can not be listed with the Churches of the Union of Utrecht. The article must be separated in Old Catholic Church (Union of Utrecht) and "Other Old Catholic Churches". The listed groups aren't Old Catholic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.105.4.79 (talkcontribs) 17:11, 25 May 2009

While it's important to distinguish which churches are and are not affiliated with the Union of Utrecht, it would not be NPOV to say that churches that are not in communion with Utrecht aren't Old Catholic. It's similar to the situation among Anglicans - most Anglican churches are part of the Anglican Communion, but those that aren't (such as those taking part in Continuing Anglicanism) are still Anglican. +Angr 17:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't agree. These so-called "Old Catholic Churches" are mostly splinter groups of wandering bishops who are illegitimately consecrated and their members are under 100 people. They suggest relations to the Old Catholicism but there aren't any. These splinter groups are not based on Old Catholic tradition and history although they distribute untruths against the Old Catholicism and the true Old Catholic Churches of the Utrecht Union. The most impertinent of them say that they adhere to the true Old Catholicism and are not member of the Union because of modernist tendencies into the Union. They have never been members of true Old Catholic Churches. These Un-Old Catholic groups damage the good reputation of the Utrecht Union.
The article must be separated. --92.105.4.79 (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
We do have a separate article on the Union of Utrecht. But because of WP:NPOV, it is not Wikipedia's place to decide what churches are and are not "true" Old Catholic Churches. We can only go by what reliable sources say, or failing that, how the churches describe themselves. Incidentally, there are certainly churches that used to be in the Union of Utrecht and no longer are. +Angr 16:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
WP:NPOV does not say, that two Churches or more must be listed in one article. In the German Wikipedia it is also separated like it HAS to be. There are articles about de:Altkatholische Kirche and de:Altkatholische Kirche (Begriffserklärung) as you know. And also the Anglican Churches you gave for example are not listed in the article about the Anglicans. And what is also important: none of the Groups I mean has ever been member of the Union. (Only the Church in Slovakia, which became a sect, was a member of the Union but it decided to become a splinter group - because of illegal consecration a bishop from an episcopus vagans). The truth must be accepted, and the truth is that those groups have not any connection to the Old Catholicism. They do say that they are Old Catholics but there is no relationship. I also can't go and call myself to a bishop and found "the Roman Catholic Church in Europe". But those splinter groups do exactly that: they steal name and history of an other church and they act as Old Catholic Churches although they are not. Neutrality is not affected if we separate the article in Old Catholic Church (only Utrecht Churches) and "Other Old Catholic Churches" (not in Communion with Utrecht), but neutrality would be destroyed if we accepted the pretension of some splinter groups and gave them the right to act as churches they are not. --92.105.4.79 (talk) 17:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Pope Leo X's "concession"[edit]

Can anyone find the "concession" from Pope Leo X? --Foititis (talk) 17:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

No. this was not any kind of concession, see this edit. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 22:10, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Non-European jurisdictions[edit]

Does anyone have any more information about other non-european jurisdictions? --Foititis (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Conference of North American Old Catholic Bishops[edit]

This section should be included, but I don't think its section needs to be as long as the the entire history section of the OCC. If you have more to say about it, make a separate page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.35.162 (talk) 18:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The conferenceofoldcatholicbishops.org website changed in 2012.[1][2] It looks as if the incorporation of the groups historic content, from its old site into its new site, was not completed. The new site does not contain any contact information, does not contain a list of any member groups or individuals, does not contain any outbound links, in my opinion someone forgot to complete the transition. For example, the history page is missing in the 2012 version. From the conferenceofoldcatholicbishops.org's History at the Wayback Machine (archived March 4, 2012), it seems that there was a survey conducted and the CNAOCB was four bishops who met twice in 2006. Do these four bishops still meet, moreover, are there any congregations involved in this? The old site didn't names any congregations that may have been involved.[3]

References

  1. ^ "[home page]". conferenceofoldcatholicbishops.org. [s.l.]: Conference of North American Old Catholic Bishops. Archived from the original on 2012-03-28. Retrieved 2014-06-02. 
  2. ^ "[home page]". conferenceofoldcatholicbishops.org. [s.l.]: Conference of North American Old Catholic Bishops. 2012. Archived from the original on 2012-08-17. Retrieved 2014-06-02. 
  3. ^ "Unity Statement". conferenceofoldcatholicbishops.org. [s.l.]: Conference of North American Old Catholic Bishops. Archived from the original on 2012-03-04. Retrieved 2014-06-02. 
--BoBoMisiu (talk) 23:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

History is not accurate[edit]

The history section says that "...in 1125 Pope Eugene III gave Utrecht the right to elect its own bishops...".

Pope Honorius II was the pope in the year 1125, so either the date or the name is incorrect. I have not been able to find the documentation to fix this (yet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wynnwagner (talkcontribs) 14:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I found another site which says 1145. That would make more sense. If I am wrong, please correct me.--Foititis (talk) 14:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Conrad II also died in 1039, so he wasn't there under Honorius II or Eugene III. I think it is Conrad III. I am changing it to say Conrad III, but if I am wrong, please correct me. --Foititis (talk) 13:25, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
The History Section says, "This was affirmed by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215" which canon, 23? --Foititis (talk) 13:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

How many new Old Catholics and old Old Catholic are there?[edit]

Are there more or fewer than 100,000? How about 500,000? More? Less? 71.134.42.129 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC).

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that there are fewer than 40,000 in the whole of Europe. Probably even fewer in the rest of the world. Most definitely less than 100,000.--70.90.111.113 (talk) 17:56, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
These numbers might be debatable or not, but some numbers must appear in article (with references, of course). Now, readers can't tell if article is about a handful of friends or about a religion with millions of members (or anything in-between).--Pere prlpz (talk) 12:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

American so-called "Old Catholicism" is historically not accurate and source citations are highly questionable[edit]

Under "Old Catholicism in America" The first paragraph reads, "In 1913, Bishop Mathew with permission of the Continental Old Catholic bishops consecrated Rudolph Edward de Landen [sic] Berghes as a bishop to work among the Scottish."

The above quote is incorrect, and the citation is not credible. As is typical with independent Catholics in the U.S., many quote their "church's" "historical documents," which contains layers of historical inaccuracies perpetuated through the years from one ind. bishop to another. Claude B. Moss is an Anglican scholar whose book The Old Catholic Movement is still considered by Old Catholic (Union of Utrecht) scholars as one of the most accurate historical books about Old Catholicism written in English. Moss clearly and accurately states that Bishop Mathews consecrated two Roman Catholic priests on June 13, 1910 without consulting and without permission from the Union of Utrecht's college of bishops (the IBK). He did not follow the college's "statutes," which governs matters of episcopal consecration among other things. Further, and I quote, Moss clearly informs his reader that Mathews did not inform "a) his fellow bishops, b) [the consecrations were done] in secret, c) without assistants, d) while the candidates were of another communion." See Moss, Claude B. The Old Catholic Movement. p. 302.  Later that year (1910) Mathews separates himself from the IBK and the Old Catholic Communion in his infamous "Declaration of Autonomy and Independence". Thus, the above quote is historically wrong, and there are many other inaccuracies too numerous to correct in this section. 174.20.129.51 20:22, 29 January 2011 (UTC) — continues after insertion below

Actually there are historical documents within the archives of the Utrecht Union as well as within the Anglican Communion that verify the accuracy of the statement about Bishop de Landas Berghes being ordained at the request of the "Continental bishops". Although Utrecht does not easily grant access to its archives the documents are there. Also, there are documents in the Lambeth Palace collection in Canterbury, UK. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashtonvsc (talkcontribs) 21:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
[citation needed] This seems like a fringe theory or a pious fraud from the early 20th century. Is there a verifiable and reliable source for this? That is, after they had announced that Mathew had "given up communion with the other Old Catholics" when he acted against the Convention of Utrecht in 1910, those same UU member Churches, or their IBC bishops, actually conspired with Mathew to violate their own protocols and authorized a non-member, i.e. Mathew, to consecrate a non-UU bishop? --BoBoMisiu (talk) 23:30, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Those independent groups in the U.S. who call themselves "Old Catholic" are canonically not part of the communion of the historical Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht. This is a reality one just cannot argue against persuasively. Of course, one can call themselves Old Catholic, or whatever else, but the reality is that they are ind. groups with skewed histories, ideologies (liberal and conservative), very small, comprised mostly of clergy or those who want to be clergy with minimal lay involvement, and other half-truths about who and what they represent -- which is as numerous as the stars. Further, most American ind. groups are Roman Catholic persons masking themselves under the title of "Old Catholic" knowing very little about Old Catholic (Union of Utrecht) theology and its dynamic eucharistic ecclesiology.

For more reading on this topic see Caruso, Robert W. (2009). The Old Catholic Church: understanding the origin, essence, and theology of a Church that is unknown and misunderstood by many in North America. Berkeley, CA: Apocryphile Press.  It has received positive reviews from Old Catholic (Union of Utrecht) scholars and reputable Catholic scholars here in the U.S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.20.129.51 (talk) 20:22, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Catholic Church and ecumenism#Diocese of Utrecht in 1703[edit]

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Catholic Church and ecumenism#Diocese of Utrecht in 1703. The historic Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580) was canonically suppressed during the Protestant Reformation because of persecution. After it was suppressed, its territory became part of a missionary administrative structure in the Low Countries, the Vicariate Apostolic of Batavia, erected in 1592. There was no "Diocese of Utrecht" that left the Catholic Church after 1703. Thanks. BoBoMisiu (talk) 15:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Recognition of ordinations[edit]

This text

Their own orders are until now recognized by the Catholic Church except for their women priests.

was add in this edit. It is misleading because the term their conflates the Old Catholic Churches with groups that the Old Catholic Churches are not in communion with. The cited source, added with that edit, discusses only a specific subset of groups which self identify as Old Catholic:

[...] the Diocese of Utrecht [...] later ordained independent bishops for other Dutch dioceses. After [...] 1870, several groups of mostly German-speaking Catholics split from the [Roman Catholic] Church. [...] the independent bishop of Utrecht, [...] ordained some of them to the episcopate.
Until now they have maintained the legitimate apostolic succession and valid sacraments.

further states about those same Churches, i.e. Union of Utrecht (Old Catholic) member Churches:

Unless these Churches eventually accept woman bishops, they will maintain the apostolic succession. [...]

The Catholic Church recognizes the orders of Churches. In other words a group must be recognized as a Church before its ordinations are recognized. This article, Old Catholic Church, is also about groups which self identify as Old Catholic but are neither recognized as Old Catholic Churches by, nor are member Churches of, the Old Catholic Churches which are members of the Union of Utrecht. The sentence: The Roman Catholic Church recognizes ordinations within some Old Catholic Churches, such as Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht; additionally, it only recognizes the ordinations, within those Churches, of male recipients by male ministers.[1] would be accurate. For example, Richard Bridges, bishop of the Independent Old Catholic Church consecrated George Augustus Stallings, Jr. as bishop of Imani Temple African-American Catholic Congregation in 1990. Commenting about that event in a 1991 New York Times article,

Msgr. William E. Lori, secretary to James Cardinal Hickey, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Washington, said, "The validity of Bishop Stallings's ordination as a bishop is extremely doubtful, and the invalidity of today's ordination of a woman is certain."[2]

It is not a Roman Catholic Church recognition of all ordinations by all groups that self identify as Old Catholic.

References

  1. ^ Scheele, Paul-Werner; Müller, Fritz-René (2009-05-12). "Preface". Written at Salzburg, Austria. The church and ecclesial communion: report of the International Roman Catholic-Old Catholic Dialogue Commission. 11th session of the International Roman Catholic – Old Catholic Dialogue Commission, Salzburg, Austria, May 10–12, 2009. Vatican City: Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Archived from the original on 2014-01-14. Retrieved 2014-01-14. 
  2. ^ Steinfels, Peter (1991-09-08). "Black Catholics in splinter sect ordain woman". nytimes.com. Washington (published 1991-09-09). Archived from the original on 2015-05-25. 

BoBoMisiu (talk) 13:33, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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oldcatholicchurchuk[edit]

An IP contributor added this edit. The very first page I looked at was the homepage of oldcatholicchurchuk.com which states it is a member of the World Council of Churches. The the World Council of Churches member churches page does not list them. I reverted the IP contributor's edits. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 00:31, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Again, IP contributor 151.225.77.149 added back the content with these edit. Still mostly unreferenced and incoherent general information that looks like advertising about the group. According to Companies House this only a 3 month old corporation. No inherent WP:ORGSIG, no verifiable WP:INHERITORG. I reverted the same IP contributor's edits again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BoBoMisiu (talkcontribs)
It looks like advertising to me as well. I've reverted the edits and will propose that the user be blocked. Mww113 (talk) 08:13, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

oldcatholicchurchuk - querry[edit]

Hi

Firstly can I just say I am not the IP poster, I use my account to make alterations, and secondly I am a Priest within the OCCUK.

I don't know who the original poster was, but rather than engaging in an edit war, which is pointless, wondered if I could engage in a constructive dialogue to find an edit which would be acceptable? I have edited a few other pieces regarding Hawkesyard Priory and its part in the OCCUK so have some experience, but wanted your guidance on what would be acceptable. Would the following be more acceptable (with relevant hyperlinks)

"The Old Catholic Church in the United Kingdom (OCCUK), in part, traces its ancestry through Archbishop Arnold Harris Mathew who was the first Bishop in Great Britain. OCCUK differ from most Churches in that the bishops, priests and deacons are unpaid, and have to make their own provision for receiving stipend. In doing so, they emulate the first apostles and early believers by receiving payment for the good works they do.

Within OCCUK there are two religious congregations: for men, the Companions of Jesus, congregation of St Benedict, and for women, the Companions of Jesus, congregation of St Francis. The Archbishop is regarded as ‘Primus inter pares’, the first amongst equals, along with the other bishops who make up the members of the College. The Province is divided into three dioceses, each overseen by a Diocesan Bishop.

Today, the Old Catholic Church in the United Kingdom is not associated to Utrecht, for reasons stated in their Canons; like their Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church brothers OCCUK subscribes to a male-only priesthood. All clergy are at liberty to marry; celibacy remains a free-choice and can be adopted if so desired.

The Old Catholic Church in the United Kingdom is a member communion of: The International Council of Community Churches who are communion members of The World Council of Churches, Churches Uniting in Christ and National Council of Churches of Christ USA. OCCUK is also a member of Faith in Europe. "

Many thanks, Fr Steve Walters

RevSteveWalters (talk) 22:53, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

@RevSteveWalters: first of all, welcome to Wikipedia. I moved your discussion from my user page to here for more visibility.
I am familiar with Arnold Matthew and have read books about Old Catholic history. What it comes down to is your corporation is only three months old and lacks any notable now. Being a member group of another member group for three months is also nothing notable. Like you say, "the Old Catholic Church in the United Kingdom is not associated to Utrecht", has a voluntary male priesthood, has multiple bishops, has groups of people following monastic rules, these points do not distinguish it from any other independent group that self identifies as Old Catholic. I am sure you want potential congregants to know that you exist now but only the passage of time will let your group organically develop notability. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 01:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
@BoBoMisiu: Many thanks for your reply, the church has been in existence for more than 3 months, however it appears someone decided to incorporate it as a company 3 months ago, a decision above my pay grade, I've been a Priest with them for 2 years and our branch of the Church was around long before that, however in the whole scheme of things yes it is still a young church. I believe what we were hoping to make a point of was that the Old Catholic Church still exists within the UK, even though it is not in Communion with Utrecht, in a similar manner to other OCC branches throughout the world. However I thank you for your advice, and will leave the addition to wikipedia for a few more years.

RevSteveWalters (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Old Catholic Communion of North America[edit]

A search of entire occna.org for pages shows a couple of pages about:

  • documents which shows only the Declaration of Utrecht signed by member churches of the Union of Utrecht of the Old Catholic Churches (UU). Of course the occna.org group is not an actual member church of the UU the page occna.org shows is just a document without any context.
  • history which shows another document about the UU (to repeat, the occna.org group is not an actual member church of the UU) without any context.
  • a concordat which "Any Old Catholic Church or Bishop seeking to be part of the Old Catholic Communion of North America (OCCNA) is expected to accept and follow [and] each bishop will be asked to sign." Unfortunately this page does not identify any connection to people.
  • links which shows links to three other groups (one group is a dead link). I looked through several of those pages and did not find any photos of actual congregations. Not even in Google image search.

There is no evidence online that this is a notable organization. Moreover, a search for "old catholic" Nesmith shows one 2015 news article about a 17 year old congregation without reference to the larger named organization:

Looking through the parallel website oldcatholicchurch.net, I was struck by the lack of names – I only found two people.

The claims made about the "Anglican Province of America" and about the "Anglican Church of North America" I believe require reliable citations since the claims are about others. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 15:36, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Persecution of Catholics in Parker[edit]

During the Reformation the Roman Catholic Church in the Netherlands remained under attack and the dioceses north of the Rhine and Waal eventually were dissolved and suspended by the Holy See. Protestants had occupied most church buildings, and those left were confiscated by the government of the Dutch Republic of Seven Provinces which favoured Calvinist protestantism.
— Old Catholic Church 2006-04-01T09:20:18

This reference was added in 2010 to existing content. None of paragraph is supported in given citation – p. 60 describes frontier towns but not diocese or churches, p. 62 describes negotiating points of reputation and religion but not facts about diocese or churches. The content needs a reference. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

First Lateran Council was not a dispute[edit]

The Concordat of Worms article (this version) includes a single sentence:

The Concordat was confirmed by the First Council of the Lateran in 1123.

It is not a dispute but a ratification. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:36, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Sociological classifications[edit]

According to both World Council of Churches and The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, "Old-Catholic Christians are composed of three sections":

  • "the Church of Utrecht which originated in 1724 when its chapter maintained its ancient right to elect the Archbishop of Utrecht, against opposition from Rome"
  • "the German, Austrian and Swiss Old-Catholic churches which refused to accept the dogmas of the infallibility and the universal ordinary jurisdiction of the pope, as defined by the Vatican Council of 1870"
  • "smaller groups of Slav origin"

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church adds:

  • that they are a "group of small national Churches, consisting of Christians who have at various times separated from Rome."
  • that other "small sects which sometimes call themselves 'Old Catholic' are not recognized by the Old Catholic Churches referred to above"
  • "The term 'Old Catholic' is also applied to [Roman Catholics] in England of older (esp. recusant) background in contrast to converts from the Oxford Movement and later and immigrants." This is not the sense that this article is about.

But, Old Catholic Church § Overview: three stages of separation from Roman Catholicism instead describes it as a three stage process. It shifts the modern meaning from groups of organizations into a single three stage process. The article should be rearranged to reflect modern sociological classifications of religious movements. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:42, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Baffling bit[edit]

The article says "In 1517, Pope Leo X prohibited, in Debitum pastoralis officii nobis, the Archbishop-Elector of Cologne, Hermann of Wied, as legatus natus, to summon, to a court of first instance in Cologne, Philip of Burgundy, his treasurer, and his ecclesiastical and secular subjects.". This makes no sense. Is it supposed to mean "In 1517, Pope Leo X, in Debitum pastoralis officii nobis, prohibited the Archbishop-Elector of Cologne Hermann of Wied as legatus natus from summoning Philip of Burgundy, his treasurer and his ecclesiastical and secular subjects to a court of first instance in Cologne."? Deipnosophista (talk) 08:00, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Deipnosophista: yes, you worded it better. I wrote it in a contorted way and I still cannot figure out how best to write it all.
It was Leo X instructing on how to apply Leo's delegated authority to summon through a legatus natus. Leo, as far as I could tell, did not change the venue for a religious court of first instance. Leo instructed Hermann not to overstep the delegated authority of a legatus natus to summon within the framework of religious law.
Leo X instructed Hermann not to use Leo's delegated authority in a legatus natus to circumvent the ordinary relationship between the religious court of an archdiocese and a religious court of a subordinate diocese. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 14:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

unsourced; moving here per VERIFY[edit]

The following is unsourced.

Old Catholic Confederation

The Old Catholic Confederation (OCC) is a union of Old Catholic churches and dioceses in a number of countries under the canonical authority of a synod of bishops. On February 16, 2013, the OCC was officially established in Philadelphia to establish unity among Old Catholics in the United States. The OCC has three national jurisdictions, including the Old Catholic Confederation of the United States (OCCUS), the Old Catholic Confederation of Italy and Malta and the Old Catholic Confederation of Great Britain and Ireland. There are several traditional Old Catholic jurisdictions that are now a part of OCCUS, including the Italian National Catholic Archdiocese of the United States, the Old Catholic Diocese of Pennsylvania, the Old Catholic Diocese of New York and the Old Catholic Diocese of Missouri. The Ecumenical Catholic Church USA is now an ecumenical partner of the confederation along with other jurisdictions. The OCC regards itself as Western Orthodox[clarify] and emphasizes its commitment to the ancient church and its customs. - Jytdog (talk) 02:39, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: I checked a few group names in the above paragraph:
Google search for "Old Catholic Confederation of Italy and Malta" shows 9 hits with nothing usable.
Google search for "Old Catholic Confederation of Great Britain and Ireland" shows 8 hits with nothing usable.
"The Ecumenical Catholic Church USA is now an ecumenical partner of the confederation": Google search for Confederation site:www.ecc-usa.org shows 0 hits.
It looks like several interconnected Facebook pages exist. On the occus.org website: Member Churches page lists no member churches, Hierarchy & organizational chart page lists no member churches, The Old Catholic Cathedral of Christ page says "in the process of purchasing a church" which doesn't make sense because OCC Worldwide Census (in progress) page claims "17,472" "Lay Faithful" and "136,362" "Other Christian Communicants". A parishes and oratories pages shows people. "OLD CATHOLIC CONFEDERATION®" is a trademark registered to an individual and "Old Catholic Confederation" is the doing-business-as name of a 501 (c)(3), although the doing-business-as name is broadly described as "Old Catholic Church in the United States under the Synod of Bishops of the Old Catholic Confederation" on occus.org – it is, according to other sources, at least a business with an EIN whose trademark is registered to an individual and not that business. I do not think it is notable per WP:NRV and possibly only an individual doing-business-as "Old Catholic Confederation". –BoBoMisiu (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into that. Nothing RS then. Jytdog (talk) 14:32, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
No, nothing RS for more than a name and a trademark. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 14:51, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Polish National Catholic Church[edit]

The article says: "The Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) is no longer in communion with the Old Catholic churches and does not describe itself as Old Catholic."

The PNCC does not use the attribute "Old Catholic" often but has a clear Old Catholic identity: "Since the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) continues to hold the Declaration of Utrecht as a normative document of faith, the development of the Union of Scranton follows a similar design."

http://www.unionofscranton.org/

@79.120.163.94: PNCC has Old Catholic provenance but no longer a member of the Union of Utrecht of the Old Catholic Churches. I would say they are arguably more Old Catholic than member churches of the Union of Utrecht.[1] The unionofscranton.org website is not technically the pncc.org website and the PNCC official commentary on the Declaration of Scranton in not, as far as I see, even on pncc.org. A search for "old catholic" on pncc.org yields only marginal mentioning of Old Catholic. While pncc.org describes "the Polish National Catholic Church still holds the Declaration of Utrecht as a normative document of faith,"[2] there are two other documents in the Convention of Utrecht which are not mentioned. The term Old Catholic is neither on the PNCC "Who We Are" page in June 2016 nor was in 2014. "[D]oes not now describe itself as Old Catholic" was added to the article added in 2014 in good faith. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:21, 7 June 2016 (UTC)